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savinderpalsingh

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Posts posted by savinderpalsingh

  1. Authencity Of 52 Hakums Of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji- Split Topic Discussion

    in Sikhi | Questions and Answers

    Posted

    Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh Guru, before leaving for the heavenly abode, had given some instructions to his followers present at Nanded in 1708. Baba Ram Singh Koer Ji, the great-grandson of Baba Buddha Ji wrote down these injunctions, which have fortunately come to us through an old manuscript.The author elaborates these 52 commandments in the light of Gurbani. Hence the book provides a comprehensive critique on the Sikh way of life prescribed by the tenth Guru Himself

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:i-gEG8XcL-MJ:www.sikhbookshelf.com/products/fifty-two-commandments-of-guru-gobind-singh+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

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  8. Was khanda amrit given to women in during 1699 or recently ?

    in Sikh Sampardaaye Section

    Posted · Edited by savinderpalsingh

    The oldest manuscripts of Chaupa Singh have the sentence "Jo sikh, sikhni noo khande di pahul deve so tankhahyia". An oldest copy was lying in Sikh Reference Library. Fortunately it was copied before blue star. It has the sentence "Jo sikh, sikhni nu khande di pahul deve so tankhahia". It is available in print to verify.

    i just found the english copy of the "chaupa singh rehatnama" submitted by W.H. Mcleod

    Capture.jpg

    it seems piara singh padams copy of Chaupa Singhs rehatnama was editted while compiling all rehatnama's together

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  10. Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

    in Sikhi | Questions and Answers

    Posted

    Interestingly, S. Kartar Singh Khalsa, Jatha Bhindran (Mehta) quoted Bhayee Chaupa Singh, “Jo Sikh, Sikhani Noo Khande Dee Pahul Na Deve, So Tankhahiya” (The Sikh, who does not give ‘Khande Dee Pahul’ to Sikhani (Sikh-woman), is a culprit). (See: ‘Khalsa Jeevan and Gurmat Rahat Maryada’ written by Sant Kartar Singh Khalsa, Jatha Bhindran (Mehta), page 180, edition 1977).

    The oldest manuscripts of Chaupa Singh have the sentence "Jo sikh, sikhni noo khande di pahul deve so tankhahyia". An oldest copy was lying in Sikh Reference Library. Fortunately it was copied before blue star. It has the sentence "Jo sikh, sikhni nu khande di pahul deve so tankhahia". It is available in print to verify.

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  11. Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

    in Sikhi | Questions and Answers

    Posted

    Question is not whether men and women are equal or not. We in this day and age all agree and believe they are equal except anatomically. We also believe they must have equal access to participate in rituals as equals.

    My question is historical. Why names Mata Sundari ji and Mata Sahib Devi ji exists without second part of name and is not Kaur in letters or hukamnamas they wrote to Sikhs during 1720's, long after Guruji passed away in 1708 and even long after 1699 when they are supposed to have taken Khande di Pahul. In histrical sources for 1700 to 1750 period, it is hard to find a female with a Kaur despite their husbands being Singhs. Only three possibilities come to my mind:

    1. The wives of Singhs did not get Khande di Pahul.

    2. The Sikh females did get Khandey di Pahul but it was not ordained by Guruji for baptised females to add Kaur to their name. We do not find any suggestion in details of 1699 Baisakhi in historical sources that they should be baptised identically except asking Kaur to be added to their name.

    3. The female Sikhs were given only Charan Pahul or Kirpan da Amrit.

    I would like us to stay away from the easy escapist options declaring without any evidence 'Guru ji said this or Guru ji couldn't have said that based on our twentieth or 21st century notions.

    so far , i have read only half of chaupa singhs rehatnama , some points i dont understand because of the translations for those words are not available.

    so far in half it is written

    given charan pahul of guru sahibs manji's pawa recite japji and jap sahib

    singh must not eat jhoot of bibi

    maybe this weekend i will try to talk to local santhaya wale bhai sab so he can translate points which i coudnt

    many of the points are in line with 52 hukams,

    will update if i find something interesting

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  16. Was khanda amrit given to women in during 1699 or recently ?

    in Sikh Sampardaaye Section

    Posted · Edited by savinderpalsingh

    bhai chaupa singhs rehatnama restricts khande baate da amrit for maiyan, the one who gives is tankhaiya mentioned in page 409

    kard di paul is mentioned in gurubilas patshahi dasvin written in 1741

    Twareekh written by Bhai Chanda Singh Firozpuri, Gohaj Pothi and Das Gur Jot written by Giani Mall Singh prove that women took Amrit in 1699

    could I get dates on these?

    is bhai chanda singh the one who was pupil to the pupils of bhai mani singh ji?

    Bhai mani singh ji
    |
    Bhai Amar Sing ,Bhai Jassa Singh,Bhai Ram Singh
    |

    Chanda singh

    one more thing i came accross was as guru sahib says while amritsanchar is "you are brothers and sister"

    So, in older discussions someone said "that women didnt take amrit cause of brother sister thing"

    but everyone was initiated with kirpan or karad di pahul first so they became sikh, if they stood good in rehat they would be given khade di pahul

    karad di pahul was practiced on all 5 takhats and Dam damit taksalor kirpan di pahul

    even bidichand dal practiced it.

    it kind of sounds absurd about the"brother sister argument"

    but guru said says, 2 body's 1 soul

    so how do you become 1 soul if you were brother and sister spiritual before wedding
    some posters said, women only took karad di pahul or kirpan di pahul to recieve naam and gurmatar

    along with some other men too we could call it "chula"

    taking khande di pahul meant giving your head completely to guru sahib, and pratakh in rehat .

    which due to physical issues women cudnt as they have to take amrit again after birth.

    any old references on this?

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  17. Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

    in Sikhi | Questions and Answers

    Posted · Edited by savinderpalsingh

    "Twareekh written by Bhai Chanda Singh Firozpuri, Gohaj Pothi and Das Gur Jot written by Giani Mall Singh prove that women took Amrit in 1699. Bhatt Vahis also prove that Amrit should be given to women and they must be named "Kaur". Twareekh Guru Khalsa Part 10 mentions many women who took Amrit. On page 159, there are two sakhis. On 160, there is a sakhi of Bibi Deep Kaur who was an Amritdhari. Rani Sada Kaur, mother in-law of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, was also Amritdhari. It is written in Guru Prem Padd Parkash that in 1702 Guru Sahib married Mata Sahib Devan and gave her Amrit. She became Mata Sahib Kaur. Sant Attar Singh gave Amrit to women equally. Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji gave Amrit to women and rejected giving Kirpan amrit to women. Read Gurbani Paath Darshan written by him."

    is bhai chanda singh the one who was pupil to the pupils of bhai mani singh ji?

    Bhai Amar Sing ,Bhai Jassa Singh,Bhai Ram Singh

    i want to see some older sources

    also, bana gurbachan singh ji mentiones in gurbani path darpan, that give kirpan amrit to women and child after birth singhs at sometime also used to prepare, karad/kirpan da amrit for everyone , maybe they didnt have khanda with them , but the point is everyone recieves naam and gurmantar .

    the source is kard di paul is talked in gurubilas patshahi dasvin written in 1741

    bhatt vahi's mentioned charan pahul is important for everyone, yes everyone used to get it.

    can someone provide me a reference where it mentioned about maiyan taking amrit and kaur name?

    even kard di paul is made in dam dami taksal in 2007 , i am not sure if it is still done

    kard di pahul was first ever amrit sanchar in patna sahib , you can ask them

    Thats pretty bold outrageous statement, its like saying all singhs now days are bunch of cry baby fuddus who lack any juice in their balls to do anything but whine all day on internet board. On many level now days amount of cry baby fuddus singhs are far more greater than bibyan who are malesh.

    also, what i mentioned was men were mainly involved in jagat juth

    and maiyan were suchi but now days maiyan are also malesh

    you cant be sure of anyone. so amrit is important for everyone.

    however. your use of profanity is not welcomed and isnt nice. you dont refrain yourself from using profanity words.

    nanak fika boiye tan mann fika hoiye,

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  22. Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

    in Sikhi | Questions and Answers

    Posted · Edited by savinderpalsingh

    what i meant was bibiyan are too malesh now, so they are given amrit , as they cant have full rehat as some singhs might be able to do so, do to physical differences thats why kirpan da amrit . not because they cant handle, i never said that .

    as i said, mata bhag kaur was a name given latter, her real name is mai bhago

    i am still researching on this, have asked some singh to ask baba maan singh ji gurunanak dal jathedar,

    The practice of naming Mata Sahib Devan as ‘Sahib Kaur’ was started by Singh Sabha scholars such as Bhai Kahan Singh ji Nabha about 100 years ago retrospectively. He writes Mata Sahib Devan as ‘Sahib Kaur’ in his Mahan Kosh.
    Now the Sikhs are trying to force ending ‘Kaur’ for many other sikh females retrospectively because of wishful thinking rather than any historical evidence. For instance, Mata Gujri ji’s name is written by some as Mata Gujjar Kaur.
    It does not mean that there did not exist any females with Kaur surname in Sikh history prior to 1699. Roop Kaur was a daughter of Guru Har Rai Sahib ji and is found thus named in documents even before 1699.
    but as stated in earlier posts it might be a status thing .
    even my grandmaa agree's she is 90+ and she said previously women never took amrit , they never gave amrit to women .




    particularly book entitled 'Hukamname' edited by the respected Sikh historian Ganda Singh ji, published by Panjabi University Patiala in 1999. If you look at the hukamanamas 74, 75, 77, 78, and 81 to 85 (photocopies of original writing, partly written by Mata Sahib Devi ji, given there one can see and read)these were written when tenth Guruji were not present in physical form, surely after 1699 these hukamnamas mention Mata Sahib Devan ji's name as Mata Sahib Devi. This is the physical solid proof and earliest proof that Mata Sahib Devan ji's name was Mata Sahib Devi ji not Mata Sahib Kaur. Honest historians would not accept any book written later during nineteenth or twentieth century retrospectively calling her Mata Sahib Kaur. That would be the subjective opinion of the writers not objective truth. Let us not distort history in the presence of objective evidence. Only other explanation could be that in those days females were not given the surname 'Kaur' but were free to have or retain earlier surnames 'Devi' as in the case of Mata Sahib Devan or 'Baee' as in the case of bibi 'Seeto Baee' the first wife of Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh ji.'Sahib Devan' is the usual name for Mata ji used by Sikhs over the centuries out of love for Mata Sahib Devi ji and the Gurdwaras and places associated with her at Hazoor Sahib have been till recently known as Mata Sahib Devan da Gurdwara not Mata Sahib Kaur da Grudwara.
    British writers in their journal dated Jan- June 1820 described "Ceremony of becoming a Sikh" and it states, "Women are made sikhs in the same manner as men the only difference in the form is that when the nectar is prepared for women it is stirred with the back instead of the edge of the knife."
    however we can see that britishers followed gorgian calender
    and we follow bikrami callender which has huge difference in years
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  25. Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

    in Sikhi | Questions and Answers

    Posted · Edited by savinderpalsingh

    The reason I asked about the caste is guru Ji never discriminated about the caste so why is he discriminating against women?

    this http://www.amritworld.com/pbi/commentary/hazooree_maryada/article_kirpan_da_amrit.pdf , the small paragraphs are from hazuri maryada prabodh .

    also chaupa singhs rehatnama is the one with actual historical reference ever found.

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