johnyork

Good replies, now you understand why I ask this question. I was afraid if I tried to put the Punjabi word for dialect in there, it might confuse someone.

What is the best way to tell a Punjabi speaker, "I speak Majhi dialect." 1) ਮੈਂ ਮਾਝੀ ਬੋਲਦਾ ਹਾਂ। 2) ਮੈਂ ਮਾਝੀ ਉਪਬੋਲੀ ਬੋਲਦਾ ਹਾਂ। 3) ਮੈਂ ਮਾਝੀ ਉਪਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਬੋਲਦਾ ਹਾਂ। 4) (you create a better sentence for me) Would you, as a Punjabi speaker understand this if a non-native Punjabi speaker said this to you? Or would you be confused if someone said this to you?

Raaj Ji, I hear what your saying Ji. Fonts will vary from one font to the next. I mean, that is the purpose of a font, to give the writer a choice of different typefaces. My central point in my discussion of this matter is "script", not "font". Think of it like this, you as a writer, have a choice about the "font" (or typeface or style or your own indicidual handwriting). The font is "choosable". The "script" on the other hand is set. Set in this context means "standardized". When Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized Gurmukhi, he did't say here are your multiple choices of script (characters making up the Gurmukhi alphabet). "Gurmukhi" and "Sikh Lipi" are synonymous. Gurmukhi is Sikh script and Sikh script is Gurmukhi. Let's look at the word Guru. First written in "Gurmukhi" and then in this "Devanagari/Gurmukhi mix" or "Gurmukhi with Devanagari influence". ਗੁਰੂ <= "Gurmukhi" गੁਰੂ <= "Devanagari/Gurmukhi mix" It is quite obvious in the above example, that the word "Guru" in the ""Devanagari/Gurmukhi mix" begins with a Devanagari consonant (ग). ग <= this is not the Gurmukhi consonant we all know as (ਗ) (ਗੱਗਾ). That is a Devanagari consonant. I want to point out that I am not chastising anyone for writing this way. I just wondered why some people kept calling this "Punjabi" script. I initially learned that Punjabi language was written in Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. I can write in both scripts. After hearing about this other script or "Punjabi" script, I wanted to investigate and get to the bottom of this. I just wanted to be enlightened about this topic so I could speak intelligently about it in the future. So, unless I find information to the contrary, I will refer to this script of theirs as "Punjabi" script because that is what they call it and I don't want to deny anyone their culturistic identity.

Thanks Raaj Ji

Raaj Ji and Dal Singh Ji, very good replies.

Dal Singh Ji, I did want to mention that I agree with you that it is not new. Localized scripts existed long before Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized Gurmukhi. I also don't consider this a variant of Gurmukhi. It is a Devanagari/Gurmukhi mix, which was referred to as "Punjabi" script by those who write Punjabi language using that scipt.

Dal Singh Ji, very good reply. The reason I chose the words ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ and टिਊਸ਼ਨ is because that is where some (not many) people (regardless of ethnicity or nationality) who write in Gurmukhi will write some characters from Devanagari because that is what they perceive to be Gurmukhi. The "ਸਿਹਾਰੀ" or "ਿ" which represents the short "i" sound is one of the characters I have noticed written incorrectly. It is because of the similarity, in my opinion, it is written incorrectly to begin with. They (who write with this Gurmukhi/Devanagari mix) acknowledge the difference by calling the script "Punjabi", instead of "Gurmukhi". I only expressed interest in it so as to investigate the truth. People can write in whatever script they choose. I just feel the whole blanket statement of Punjabi language is written in Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi is not factually true. This Devanagari/Gurmukhi mixed script that these locals in Punjab, India call "Punjabi" is not the Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized version of Gurmukhi that is the true Sikh script. I am simply passing on this observatiion as I thought maybe others in this forum might find it interesting, thats all.

The sentense, "ਮੈਂ ਚੀਨੀ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਸਿੱਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ।" is written in "present simple tense". In the aforementioned sentence, I am trying to say, "I learn Chinese language". What is the proper way to write that sentence in "present continous tense" (I am "learning" Chinese language).

ਸਤਿ or ਸਤ (truth) I have seen it spelled both ways (ਸਤਿ ਸਤ). I have heard it pronounced ਸਤ. So, is ਸਤ the spelling to reflect how it is pronounced? Is one spelling correct and one spelling incorrect? Is there some reason that both of these spellings exist.

Impressed you could see the difference in the 2 example words. I have shown this to other Sikhs and they couldn't see the difference. I am guessing you can read both Gurmukhi (Sikh script) and Devanagari (Hindi script).

Dal Singh Ji, I will use the word ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ as an example to better explain. ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ <= Gurmukhi script टिਊਸ਼ਨ <= "Punjabi" script? As you can see from this example, the ਸਿਹਾਰੀ and the ਟੈਂਕਾ in the Gurmukhi script are the Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized Gurmukhi characters we expect to see. The script being referred to as "Punjabi" has what I would consider "Devanagari" characters as part of the word.

When some people from Punjab, India say they write in Punjabi and I ask them if they write in Gurmukhi and they say, "no, I write in Punjabi". What exactly are they saying? I ask them if it was the same as Gurmukhi and they said no. They said the spelling is different. When I have seen the writing, it looks like Gurmukhi, but with (Hindi script/Devanagari) characteristics. However, it was definitely not Devanagari. It look like some kind of "Punjabi shorthand" if you will. So if it is not Gurmukhi script, then what do you call it? I think Gurmukhi is for writing formal Punjabi (what I learned) and the Gurmukhi like script they use is for writing Punjabi shorthand.

Dal Singh Ji, I made some changes to the spelling on 2 of the words as I was having trouble finding some of the words. ਓਨਾ (adj. that much) ਲਵੋ (ਲੈਣਾ verb. take) ਜਿੰਨਾ (adj. as much as) ਛਕਣਾ (eat) ਹੈ (will) I am really struggling with ਲਵੋ because I have difficulty with Punjabi verb inflection (Punjabi verb conjugation). I speak Español and I have a large Español verb conjugation dictionary that shows me all the forms, which I still consult from time to time. Would be nice if I had one for Punjabi verbs also. Do you know of any online resource that list the Punjabi verbs with all their different forms? If so, can you post the link?

Dal Singh Ji, here is an update on the original sentence I was trying to translate. The consonants are written correctly, however, the use of bindi may be wrong. This sentence may have been written from a person who usually writes in Hindi script (Devanagari) and maybe they put bindis where they are not supposed to. However, they may have spelled it correctly. I simply don't know. You were correct about ਲਵੋ though as I had written it down wrong. ਉਨਾਂ ਲਵੋ ਜਿਨਾਂ ਛਕਣਾ ਹੈ ਜੀ

Dal Singh Ji, my use of the phrase/word "triple conjunct consonants" is from verbage from linguistic research. It is not an accepted standardized word. In normal discussion of "consonant clusters", there is usually no mention if it is 2 consonants joined or 3 consonants joined. A linguist would simply explain if the cluster he or she was discussing had 2 or 3 consonants involved.

dalsingh101, triple conjunct consonants are simply a cluster (or group of consonants/letters) which has 3 letters. A normal cluster is just 2 letters like "(St)ate" which is a "2 letter cluster". An example of triple conjunct consonants is "(Str)eet" because there are (3 ie. triple) consonants used to make the cluster.

dalsingh101, here is an example of "triple conjunct consonants". I have typed the word "script" in Devanagari. स्क्रिप्ट = script (displays properly and can not be misread) ਸਿ्ਕ्ਰਪ੍ਟ = script (to me, this looks better than this => ਸਿ੍ਕ੍ਰਪ੍ਟ) However, it is incorrect and I accept that Gurmukhi is Gurmukhi and it is what it is.

ddalsingh101, thanks for the help on this. I have had some difficulty getting good answers on some of my questions. I am just an individual who likes learning. It only seems as though I am an expert because I have read a lot of information relating to languages and I can recall some of it and simply repeat what I have read. I could read and write in Devanagari and I knew Devanagari descended from Gupta just as Gurmukhi did. So I thought I could easily learn to write in Gurmukhi and on occasion I get motivated to understand it once and for all and not have to ask Khalsas in the Gurdwara (or Kukas in the Dharamshala). So, in summary, I accomplished what I set out to do and that was to teach myself to read and write in Gurmukhi. For me, attempting to write loanwords that are not standardized forces you to learn to write as you have to comprehend the writing system to spell words that you have never seen spelled before (in the script you are learning).

I will have to go back and look at where I copied the original sentence. I was writing by memory, so I may have written the sentence down wrong. Your translation makes sense. Basically, be clean, don't waste food, take only what you can eat. Seems like an anticipated message you would receive in the langar.

dalsingh101, sorry, I should have explained I was just using those words as examples. Your letter choices may be better, but once again, I was just using those as examples to assist in explaining my question. What I am trying to ask in my question is how to form "triple conjunct consonants", which are used extensively in the English language. The small subscript symbol you are talking about is a "halant" (some confuse it with an "udaat" which is used in the SGGS) and it is still used for loan words. However, if you enter it via any text editor, it will remove the "halant" if possible if there is an assigned subscript (paireen haha, paireen rara, etc.). Even in your spelling of street "ਸਠ੍ਰੀਠ", the letters (ਸ[ਠਰ]/ਸਠ੍ਰ) are not displayed as "3 letter cluster" (you have a single letter followed by a 2 letter cluster). It would be read as "Satreet". You could put a "halant" on your "ਸ" which is what I did in my example, and it would serve the purpose of giving the reader the ability to properly pronounce the word "street" without having any previous knowledge of this word. However, it is not "clean" grammar to me and I am not satisfied with the way it displays. In Tibetan script, I can type "triple conjunct consonants" and you can also type them in Devanagari as clusters are joined horizontally and not via subscript symbols like Gurmukhi. This may be a limitation of Gurmukhi when it is used to write certain loan words and a reader will just have to know how to pronounce the word. The same as a reader in English just has to know that the letters "str" in the word street are a cluster. The motivation for asking this question is that on paper, I can write nice clean looking "triple conjunct consonants". I just put "2" subscript symbols side by side below the the 1st letter of the 3 letter cluster. I was unable to find any example of my style of writing online, so I was lead to believe that it simply doesn't exist. Maybe "double conjunct consonants" are the maximum when writing in Gurmukhi.

Okay, now onto sentence (3). My current understanding is as follows. ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਲਵੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਛਕਣਾ ਹੈ ਜੀ Unha̅ṁ(those) lave(near) jinha̅ṁ(whoever) chhakana̅(eating) hai(is) ji Those near whoever is eating. So what is this sentence trying to say? Does it relate to sentence (2) or no? Is it trying to tell you not to leave uneaten food on your plate near others who are eating? This sentence still has me puzzled. Any help is appreciated on this one.

What is the correct way to type triple conjunct consonants in Gurmukhi script? ਸ੍ਤ੍ਰੀਤ = (str)eet (triple) ਸ੍ਤੇਤ = (st)ate (double) As you can see in the above example, I was not able to successfully type triple conjunct consonants for the word "street". Is this possible in unicode?

dalsingh101, thanks for the continued help. I think I got it now. Please correct me if I am wrong. The word that was causing me problems was ਵਿਚ. I think ਵਿਚ is a preposition meaning "in" as you stated already. So it means "in the langar". It was confusing me because the prepostion ਵਿਚ came after the word langar. So I can view this sentence as, "Members don't place dirty hands (in) the langar." Do I have correct understanding of this sentence? In Punjabi language, is this correct preposition placement within the sentence, to place the preposition after word it effects? Like for example, ਵਾਿਹਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ. In this sentence, ਕਾ (preposition "of") comes after ਵਾਿਹਗੁਰੂ to indicate the Khalsas of Waheguru. So I am thinking, ਵਿਚ is follwing langar to let the "Members/ Holy Congregation Ji" no where not to place their hands. Don't place your dirty hands "IN" the langar.

Okay, let me ask my next question. I want to make sure I have sentence (1) understood as far as sentence structure goes. Please tell me if this correct. (1) ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤ = members (Subject) ਲੰਗਰ=food ਵਿਚ=with ਜੂਠੇ=dirty ਹੱਥ=hands (Object) ਨ=don't ਲਾਉ=touch (Verb) Members don't touch food with dirty hands.

Thanks Ji. You have helped me a lot. I have more questions pertaining to these sentences and I will ask in a follow-up reply to this topic.