Avtaar ofNarsingh

[Bhaji]

WjkkWjkf,

 

I have got 2 questions regarding the Sakhi of Bhagat Prehlad Ji:

1) Was Narsingh the Avtaar of Vishnu (as said in Chaubis Avtar?) or incarnation of Akaal Purakh Waheguru (as some Gursikhs tell) ?

2) Why do we connect the Lorhi and Holi festivals to Haulka?

[BhagatSingh]

6 hours ago, Bhaji said:

1) Was Narsingh the Avtaar of Vishnu (as said in Chaubis Avtar?) or incarnation of Akaal Purakh Waheguru (as some Gursikhs tell) ?

Wjkk wjkf,
Have you noticed that in Guru Granth Sahib, the poets like Kavi Kalya ji projected Guru Sahibs as avtaars of Vishnu?

Hopefully this is not too much a shock but within the context of Guru Granth Sahib - Vishnu is Akal Purakh, he is Waheguru. He is mentioned on every page of Guru Granth Sahib by his most popular name - ਹਰਿ, which many of us did not notice when we first started reading bani. Guru Arjun Dev ji clarifies this in a shabad on Page 1082 and in many other shabads. (The shabad on page 1082 is a really good one but too long to paste here.)

Bani of kavi Kalya ji -

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
In Satyug, You (Vishnu, the one who resides everywhere) enjoyed deceiving and liberating King Bali in the Vaman avtar.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Treta, You loved being called King Ram, of the Raghu Dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
In Dwapar, You, Krishan Murara, killed Kans and saved everyone.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
You granted Kingship to Ugrasain and elevated your devotees.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Kaliyug, You came as Guru Nanak Dev, Guru Angad Dev and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
The rule of Guru Sahibs is unchanging, unmovable, by His very command.

 

Look at Bhai Gurdas ji's poetic elaboration of Waheguru.

In short, he says -
"Wa - Comes from Wishnu (Vishnu)."
Wa is the first letter, it is the source, that is Vishnu, the Nirankar Jot represented by the painting of the dark-skinned, four-armed man. Then the avtaars follow -
"Hari Krishn ji, our Gurus, Ram Chandra ji. That gives you Wa - He  - Gu - Ru"

 

This fact becomes largely distorted in English translations and by certain teekas and scholars. So always read the original Gurmukhi.

[Guest Guest penguin]

42 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Wjkk wjkf,
Have you noticed that in Guru Granth Sahib, the poets like Kavi Kalya ji projected Guru Sahibs as avtaars of Vishnu?

Hopefully this is not too much a shock but within the context of Guru Granth Sahib - Vishnu is Akal Purakh, he is Waheguru. He is mentioned on every page of Guru Granth Sahib by his most popular name - ਹਰਿ, which many of us did not notice when we first started reading bani. Guru Arjun Dev ji clarifies this in a shabad on Page 1082 and in many other shabads. (The shabad on page 1082 is a really good one but too long to paste here.)

Bani of kavi Kalya ji -

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
In Satyug, You (Vishnu, the one who resides everywhere) enjoyed deceiving and liberating King Bali in the Vaman avtar.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Treta, You loved being called King Ram, of the Raghu Dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
In Dwapar, You, Krishan Murara, killed Kans and saved everyone.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
You granted Kingship to Ugrasain and elevated your devotees.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Kaliyug, You came as Guru Nanak Dev, Guru Angad Dev and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
The rule of Guru Sahibs is unchanging, unmovable, by His very command.

 

Look at Bhai Gurdas ji's poetic elaboration of Waheguru.

In short, he says -
"Wa - Comes from Wishnu (Vishnu)."
Wa is the first letter, it is the source, that is Vishnu, the Nirankar Jot represented by the painting of the dark-skinned, four-armed man. Then the avtaars follow -
"Hari Krishn ji, our Gurus, Ram Chandra ji. That gives you Wa - He  - Gu - Ru"

 

This fact becomes largely distorted in English translations and by certain teekas and scholars. So always read the original Gurmukhi.

But... But Vishnu ji is a deity just like Krishna and brahma. Vaheguroo is limitless and it's like an ocean and Vishnu ji was like let's say bucket of water, if we are tiny drops of it. We can't say whole ocean was this big bucket of water in the ocean. If Vishnu ji is an akal purkh, why were we told to meditate upon the creator rather than Vishnu ji. Sikhi came because  we should meditate on the one than pleasing deities. Which can be ancient aliens or entities which were put on planet to create this drama. I know after ancient alien you won't take me seriously lol. But still who knows they were coming from sky and would go back there. I mean why not just vanish in thin air than going to clouds which makes some crazy kids to stand on the roof and look deeply with in the cloud to see if we can see Indra or thinking does Indra lok gets flooded during rainy days. 

Lazy to log in sorry admins.

[BhagatSingh]

On Vishnu

2 hours ago, Guest Guest penguin said:

But... But Vishnu ji is a deity just like Krishna and brahma. Vaheguroo is limitless and it's like an ocean and Vishnu ji was like let's say bucket of water, if we are tiny drops of it. We can't say whole ocean was this big bucket of water in the ocean. If Vishnu ji is an akal purkh, why were we told to meditate upon the creator rather than Vishnu ji.

Penguin ji,

 We were told to meditate on two gurmantras in Guru Granth Sahib - ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ and ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ

These are popular names of Vishnu - Hari and Ram.
ਵਿਸਨ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੩੭॥
Kabir Ji, says when one meets Vishnu, one finds out the whole truth.

 

Deity means God, what you are calling Vaheguru.

Allah means 'the deity', what you are calling Vaheguru.

Vishnu ji is that which you are calling Vaheguru. He is the limitless ocean, we are droplets.

 

In Vaishnav lore, Vishnu means 'one who resides everywhere', he is the Supreme Creator, Preserver and Destroyer. He created Maya, the world as part of his play, Leela.

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥
A Vaishnav is that person with whom Vishnu is himself happy, he remains detached from Vishnu's Maya.

And those who remember him, and remain detached from Maya, ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ, with them he has a special relationship, he becomes their charioteer.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
Wielding the Shankh, Chakra, Gada, (Vishnu) is the charioteer of his saints.

(He guides his saints to liberation)

 

2 hours ago, Guest Guest penguin said:

Which can be ancient aliens or entities which were put on planet to create this drama. I know after ancient alien you won't take me seriously lol. But still who knows they were coming from sky and would go back there.

Speaking of coming from the sky...

 

On Indra

2 hours ago, Guest Guest penguin said:

I mean why not just vanish in thin air than going to clouds which makes some crazy kids to stand on the roof and look deeply with in the cloud to see if we can see Indra or thinking does Indra lok gets flooded during rainy days. 

Indra is not a person sitting on a chair in clouds like they show in Tv serials.

Indra lives everywhere. Indra is another name of God, what you call Vaheguru. Indra is the master of Indris. Indris are senses - touch, sight, sound, etc. Indra is consciousness, Atma and Parm Atma, by whose grace the Indris come into being. Thus by keeping senses in control and withdrawing back into consciousness, Indra (what you call Vaheguru) is obtained.

Indra's is a separate religion from pre-vedic era. It has died overtime, though the ideas have lived on, and have carried forward in other religions, in different forms... such as Vishnu or Waheguru.

E.g.

ਦਸ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਵਾਸਿ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਆਤਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥੧॥
He keep his Indris, ten senses, under control, in this manner he becomes enlightened.

 

In TV serials, they show that everyone is trying to obtain Indra Asan, the Throne of Indra. Everyone is trying to get it but something comes up, and they don't achieve it.

Why can't nobody obtain it?

Because Indra is the highest, he is the limitless ocean, we are droplets. No one can obtain the limits of the limitless ocean. That is Indra Asan, the seat of Indra, that is infinite.

ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵਾ ॥
Inaccessible, Incomprehensible, Invisible and Inscrutable.

[IJJSingh]

3 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Hopefully this is not too much a shock but within the context of Guru Granth Sahib - Vishnu is Akal Purakh, he is Waheguru. He is mentioned on every page of Guru Granth Sahib

BhagatSingh ji,

If we accept your assertion that in SGGS Vishnu is in fact Waheguru, then how do you explain numerous explicit references in SGGS where Vishnu is portrayed as an insignificant deity under the influence of maya who is suffering from the disease of ego?  The following are some examples:

ਐਸੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਇਕ ਰਾਮਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥…ਪਾਇ ਠਗਉਲੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਜੋਹਿਆ ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥ Such is Maya, the woman, which the One Lord has created… Through her illusion, she has dominated the whole world.  Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are under her spell. (SGGS 394)

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva suffer from the disease of the three gunas - the three qualities; they do their deeds in egotism. (SGGS 735)

ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹੇਸ ਉਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਏ ॥ He created and destroyed millions of Shivas. (SGGS 1156)

ਰੋਗੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਰੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਰੋਗੀ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are diseased; the whole world is diseased. (SGGS 1153)

ਏਕਸੁ ਕੀ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਾਰ ਏਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਰੁਦ੍ਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ Everyone must serve the One Lord, who created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. (SGGS 1130)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

 

[BhagatSingh]

@IJJSingh

Short Answer-

One one hand - Parm Atma is under the influence of Maya. ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥

But on the other - Parm Atma is beyond Maya, who created Maya, and is the one who takes us out of the influence of Maya. ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥

These seem like contradictory notions. It's like a paradox. It is resolved through studying one's inner experience. Because this is happening inside you right this moment. Right here, right now.

 

There is Parmatma in you under the influence of Maya, witnessing the world, and also outside the influence of Maya, completely hidden, inaccessible, invisible.

 

One way to understand this is to look at an Iceberg - It is under water and outside water at the same time.

Under the influence of Maya  v

Outside the Influence of Maya ^

 

Long Answer-

On 2015-09-02 at 2:34 AM, BhagatSingh said:

Good question!
 

Whenever Brahma-Bishan-Mahadev, Brahma-Bishan-Mahesh are mentioned together, they are not referring to the Brahma ji, Vishnu ji and Mahadev ji individually.

It is referring to Brahma-Vishnu-Mahadev as a collective. Together.

This is actually quite complex and quite difficult to understand since it requires understanding a whole bunch of philosophies and texts. I'll try to give a brief synopsis.

 

So India had many many different philosophies that gave birth to countless religions.

In one philosophy, Brahma ji is almighty lord. In this philosophy, Brahma ji creates, preserves and destroys however, the followers talked about his creative trait a lot. He gives birth to the thousand petaled lotus that is a symbol of multi-layered reality, in which Brahma ji, parmatma, resides. The followers of this philosophy have all passed away.

In another philosophy, Vishnu ji is almighty lord. In this philosophy, Vishnu ji creates, preserves and destroys however, the followers talked about his preservative trait a lot. Like they talked about stories of Vishnu ji preserving Prahlaad's life, saving him from Hiranyakashap. He preserved the life of Gaj, elephant, who was ensnared by a crocodile. He preserved Dropadi's honour when she was lost in a gamble and was being molested by the winning party. Like that. Narad ji followed this philosophy.

In another philosophy, Shiv ji is almighty lord. In this philosophy, the destructive trait of the almighty lord is emphasized a lot. Shiv ji creates, preserves and destroys however, the followers emphasized his destructive trait. They talked about Shiv ji destroying things, like ignorance. There are old Nataraj moortis that show Shiv ji doing the tandav on a dwarf. The dwarf symbolizes ignorance and Nataraj is doing tandav (destructive dance), Shiv ji is destroying ignorance. Adi Shankar ji followed this philosophy.

 

So individually,  Brahma ji, Vishnu ji and Shiv ji capture the names and philosophies of almighty lord. Like the names - Allah, Yahweh, Waheguru.

However when mentioned together as Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesh, it is referring to the creative-preservative-destructive aspects of the almighty lord.

Maya is mother nature. So the creation, preservation and destruction happens according to mother nature's laws. However in these philosophies Maya is created by Vishnu ji.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥
Remain detached from Vishnu's Maya.

Ultimately Vishnu ji is above Maya and can bend her laws that he himself put in place. Bhagat Namdev ji talk about this in one of his shabads.

 

Bhagat Kabir ji is not exactly saying that the almighty lord is being deceived by maya. He is on one level being deceived by her by his own wish. But on another level he is the one who created her by his own wish.

Parmatma resides both inside (under the influence of) and outside (without the influence of) of maya.

So Bhagat ji is saying that with guru's grace one can get a glimpse of that aspect of almighty lord that dwells outside of maya, that aspect that is unaffected by maya.

 

So that's the philosophy of it.

 

Now

When you look inside, you see that your atma, which is parmatma, is being influenced by maya.

Maya is so powerful that is deludes you, and makes you think that things are concrete.

 

Have you ever looked at a table and touched it?

Knock on it.

You think it's concrete right?

It makes a sound, it bumps again the knuckle.

 

Feel it.

It's hard to the touch. It's solid.

This is because of maya. The table feels solid because your atma, which is parmatma, is under the influence of maya.

 

This hardness of the table is real. But it is not the ultimate reality. Meaning, it's not completely true that the table is hard.

 

Bhagat Kabir ji is saying that as you practice the teachings of the Guru. You will soon realize that "the table is not actually hard". In a nutshell... lol.

 

Listen to the child in this scene. He is symbolic of "guru" in this movie. With the guru's teachings, Neo realized that the spoon was not completely hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtO5dMqEI

 

This movie was actually based on Indian philosophies. In the soundtracks they chant Omkar.

 

[paapiman]

21 hours ago, Bhaji said:

1) Was Narsingh the Avtaar of Vishnu (as said in Chaubis Avtar?) or incarnation of Akaal Purakh Waheguru (as some Gursikhs tell) ?

Bhaji jee - Sri Narsingh jee was an avtaar of Sri Vishnu jee (a demi-God), not of the Almighty Waheguru. But, one has to understand that Waheguru exists in demi-Gods too. The source of power of all demi-Gods is the Almighty Waheguru.

The most powerful avtaar of Sri Vishnu jee was Sri Krishan jee, who was bestowed with 16 Kalas (Powers). Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj is the incarnation of the Almighty Waheguru and has unlimited powers.

For more info, please have a look below:

 

Bhul chuk maaf