Jonny101

I have seen that interview as well. Bhagat's sister says that he did the paath of the Bhagavat Gita.

The interview I saw was different from the one you are referring to. In that interview the interviewer asked if their mother ever did paath to which she answered their mother recited paath of Gurbani for them everyday as they grew up. Now I have just seen the interview you are talking about. In that interview she has mentioned that their mother did Paath of Japji Sahib. And like many educated secular freedom fighters of his times, she mentions of Bhagat Singh's secular nature that he did Paath of Gita, Sukhmani Sahib and Quran. Anyway, my response here was in answer to Sher who has a really bad habit of distorting Sikh history by claiming many respectful Sikhs of the past were not even Sikhs. I think he does it to get a reaction from us.

I don't know, some people here are saying Kaal is Iblis/Devil which makes you do bad things which is what Kabir-Panthis/Radhasoamis say too, which I thought is similar to how some people mention how Kaliyug is. Now some are saying Kaal is similar to DharamRaj who gives justice or punishment based on one's karams. In Dasam Bani Guru Jee mentions Kaal many times, but Kaal as Guru Jee mentions is just another qualitative name(kirtam naam) of Vaheguru.

In places like South India and else where, Christians are converting a large number of Hindus to Christianity due to the caste system. If Sikhs do not discard this evil, we will see the same thing happen to us. Already the Ravidasias who in reality are our brothers have separated. In Amritsar/Gurdaspur Christian missionaries are converting Mazhabis. This despite the fact that caste has no place in Sikhi.

Kapur Singh was dismissed from his government job for corruption. Do you really think Sikhs need such a morally weak person as their leader?

As usual presenting a distorted view of the picture. Very smart. He was an IAS officer and had access to secret communications between top government officials. He was dismissed because right after partition as he had revealed how certain politicians had sent letters to all IAS officers(including him) stating Sikhs are a community of criminals(jaraim pesha). This is similar to how Gen Shabeg Singh was dismissed from his job turning patriotic Indians unpatriotic. When S Kapur Singh challenged this in court, they had nothing against him, in the end the judge told him privately that he was ordered to give a judgement against him. This isn't just about Sikhs who been meted out this type of treatment by the real corrupt Indian politicians but even upright Hindus suffered such as Gen Sinha was should have become the Chief of Army Staff but since he refused to follow Indira Gandhi's orders of carrying out operation bluestar his career suffered and in his place her yes-man Gen Vaidya was given that promotion. Corrupt politicians have destroyed a country that had great potential.

JangChamkaur, again reread my post, where did I condemn all Hindus? neither have I belittled or distorted their religion. I have made it clear that when I say Hindus I mean only a certain section of Hindus who have made it an agenda to oppose the Sikhs on every issue for the last century. I'm surprised and shocked that someone could interpret my posts as being "anti Hindu". You make the same mistake as Sher does which is, you interpret being pro Sikhi as being anti Hindu. He does it due to his Dheetpuna, and you do because of your being an uninformed leftist.

Thing is, at least Sher is informed about the issues, so when me and him have a dialogue with each other we both know what we're talking about. But you on the other hand have no idea about the issues being discussed in historical context and then you pass a judgement on me. That's the problem with uninformed lefties.

the same bullshit, over and over.

what can we expect from him. He just repeats the same thing over and over again. It's one thing if a person is here for a genuine dialogue and to learn about Sikhi, but he is just here to spread anti Sikh propaganda and to distort Sikhi. Only a certain section of Punjabi Hindus do this type of stuff. And then they wonder why Sikhs react the way they do when Shararati people like him try to mess around with our religion.

How do we know someone's religion? Easy, which rites they follow when getting married or at their funeral. All of the Gurus (including Baba Nanak) were married acc the Hindu rites, to Hindu girls and were cremated acc to the Hindu rites. All Gurus talked of Hindus and Muslims, never of Sikhs as the third 'religion'. Not one place in any Sikh Granth you would find the words "Sikh" and "Dharam" together.

Guru Nanak, Hindu ka Guru, Muslim ka peer. Sikhs no where. At his funeral, according to the lore, Hindus and Muslims quarreled over the funeral rites. where were the 'Sikhs'?

Gurus, whether you like it or not, lived like any khatri male of their age wearing topis and tilaks.

Guru Gobind Singhji approached a Hindu (Banda bahadur) to carry on his campaign against the Muslim tormentors. why not a Khalsa if there was a such a well-defined separation between the two faiths?

10th Guru sahib also drew his genealogy right back to Sri Ram, calling himself a Raghuvanshi (bachittar Natak Dasam Granth). DG also claims 'Ram Katha jug jug atal". DG is imo nothing but a pure Hindu granth.

Gurus did not leave Hindu faith but today Sikhism is a separate religion and I have absolutely no problem with that. You guys want to have a separate religion, complete agreement. Ravidassis or Jains want to be known as separate religions today, no problem with them too.

If you believe this then that's up to you. But from your post, you believe Sikhs and Hindus were/are one community, if that's the case then why do Punjabi Hindus for the last century always oppose the Sikhs? The only time the Hindus did not oppose the Sikhs was during partition in which they all stood behind Master Tara Singh, and look because of this unity we got almost half of the old Punjab instead of it all going to Pakistan . But as soon as partition happened Punjabi Hindus again began to oppose the Sikhs on every issue and the result Punjab gets further divided, Punjabi river waters unfairly go to non riparian states, Chandigarh is not even our own anymore and eventually the whole mess of the 80s. Arya Samaj and it's thinking has done a lot of damage to the Hindu Sikh relations. The sooner Punjabi Hindus ditch Arya Samaj and again gravitate towards Sikhi the better.

Jonny, why do your comments wreak of anti-Hindu sentiment? We might as well be OK with people in my pind blaming our whole kom for Badal taking over his jameen with his gang of fake nihangs. Until you stop saying shit like "Hindu mob" or "local Hindu population" no one is going to stop looking at us as bigots and terrorists.

When did I make anti Hindu comments? I have never criticized their religion. But if a group of people for the last century or so is attacking and opposing Sikhs for no reason, you are saying these repeat offenders should not even be mentioned by name. If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and quacks like a duck, then obviously I'm going to call it a duck. I would also like to make it clear that not all Hindus are opposed to the Sikhs. It is mainly Punjabi Hindus and among the Punjabi Hindus it is those ones who are under the evil influence of the Arya Samaj. Before the Arya Samaj movement gained ground in Punjab, the Hindus never had a problem with the Sikhs. But since this evil demonic movement came to Punjab they have done nothing but lit the fire of communal tension between these two communities.

Sirdar Kapur Singh Jee was an intellectual who had such insight into these matters even before anyone else in the Panth. He warned the Sikh leadership even before partition but no one listened. It took Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale to finally awaken the Sikhs. May Guru Jee bless the Panth with more Sikhs like these great men.

So is Kaal similar or same as Kaliyug which we know from a Saakhi once visited Guru Nanak Dev Jee? like how Kaliyug is shown here:

Or is Kaal different from Kaliyug?

When the decision to create Punjabi suba was announced, the Hindus in Delhi attacked the Sis Ganj Gurdwara. The sewadars beat back the attackers and the newpaper reports of the time state that two Hindus were killed by swords and spears during the attack,

http://news.google.c...&dq=sikhs&hl=en

That's right, that's exactly what happens when a pack of hyenas attacks a few lions.

The same thing happened when the Sikhs had liberated Panja Sahib from the Mahant Pujaris during the Akali movement. When it was liberated, a few Akalis had remained for administrative purposes. When the local Pothohari Hindu population saw that the vast body of the Akalis had left, they decided to form a large mob and attack the Gurdwara and the few remaining Akalis within it and reinstate the Pujaris. Before they could come near the Gurdwara they were stopped by the police the officer was a local Muslim. The Hindu mob armed with Lathis was saying all sorts of brave words and challenging the Singhs in the Gurdwara. Seeing this then the Singhs too asked the Muslim officer to let these Hindus through so they can show how brave they are. The Muslim officer too wanted to see what the Hindus were capable of. As soon as the Muslim officer backed off, the handful of Singhs armed with Lathis roared with Jaikaras charged the big Hindu mob. Suffice to say the hyenas could not stand in in front of the Singhs and ran away.

Proves that if Singhs live in accordance with Guru Jee's hukam of being Tyar Bar Tyar, they are safe.

So is a Sikh classless society one without Gots?

I don't think one has to give up their last name. It is one's thinking that should change. I know Amritdhari Sikhs who have had inter caste marriages, but still use their last name. It's not practical for 25 million people to all use the last name Singh. If one finds Got as unSikh, then one can always use the name of their pind or illaka as their last name.

Very interesting. Can some one shed more light on this

Sikh social order IS based on ideas of a classless society.

Very true. Ideally the Sikh social order is a classless society where one is not discriminated based on differences of Jaat-Paat/Nasal/Ameeri-Gareebi. These are all man made social constructs.

Agree you dont kill Xtisn missionaries and burn churches or mosques you kill Hindus instead and ravidassis and dera premis, Nirankaris, communists. so SHUT UP too!

You know the issues still you are acting ignorant on purpose. Sikhs don't kill anyone including Hindus for converting Sikhs. But if someone is going to insult Guru Granth Sahib Jee or kills Sikhs then Sikhs will also not stay quiet. We don't go around killing Christian missionaries, raping their elderly nuns like the terrorists of Bajrang Dal do or kill helpless poor Christians in orissa, that is something only Hindus and Muslims do. This is why Khalsa Raaj is needed so much. Hindus, Muslims, Christians are all suffering. Only Khalsa Raaj can bring peace.

Better feel like shit son, research before peeking into the abyss.

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!

The idea behind it is not to discriminate based on caste/race/colour. I don't think anywhere the Gurus said to not be allowed to use Gotras/last names. Traditionally Sikhs used the name of their village or illaka as their last name For example Teja Singh "Samundri", Sant Sundar Singh "Bhindranwale", Gurbachan Singh "Manochahal". Using Gotras as openly as we are now doing is a recent change/trend among the Sikhs. If we all stop using our Gotras, then every Sikh man will have the last name Singh and every woman will have last name Kaur. Can you imagine trying to find someone's phone number which lakhs of people with the exact same name. I think we should go back the traditional way of our people and use the name of the village or area as the last name.

If he became Muslim, who cares...... seriously shutup. Your not trying to get your daughter to marry him so SHUTUP. Seriously immature posts here. Its non of your business what he does. This is a personal matter stay out of it. If some loser kids want to idolize him and follow him into his conversion or whatever thats their prerogative, stay out of that too.

We are not like Hindus who kill Christian missionaries and burn churches in India or like Muslims who kill apostates for leaving the religion. But we are entitled to our own opinion and are free to express it.So you shut up!

Aazan in space? Mind you though they consider the earth to be flat, so for them anything is possible.

That's not all, almost everyday we hear of Muslims claiming some celebrity becoming a Muslim. They even claim Jesus was Muslim!

i am not, unlike narrow-minded (neo Tat Khalsa) like you, monopolise punjab's common heritage. Not only Sikhs, Punjabi/North Indian Muslims also have a claim over Sanskrit.

whether nirmalas 'revived' sanskrit or not, highly debatable. you are giving impression as if Sanskrit was taught in gurdwaras (or dharamsals as they were called earlier). This is true - Hindu,Sikh students used to study together and the syllabus included Hanuman Natak and Dasam Granth like Hindu (I can see some ultras squirming) scriptures

If Sanskrit was common place in Punjab then what was the need of those 5 Nirmala Sikhs to go to UP to learn Sanskrit and revive it by teaching it to others? I myself am not against Sanskrit. I think Punjabis on both sides of the border should discard the Bhaya languages of Hindi and Urdu and in their place learn classical languages like Sanskrit and Farsi as a secondary language while giving Punjabi it's rightful place as the state language. Linguistically Punjabi language can become a bridge between Sanskrit and Farsi much like Guru Gobind Singh Jee has shown in his Bani where words of the two classical languages are merged together to form in new word. Similarly the Sikh religion can also serve as a bridge between the Hindus and Muslims both of whom should forget their differences and unite by embracing Sikhi as they should have done long ago. That is the only way to Indo Pak unity.

i am not, unlike narrow-minded (neo Tat Khalsa) like you, monopolise punjab's common heritage. Not only Sikhs, Punjabi/North Indian Muslims also have a claim over Sanskrit.

whether nirmalas 'revived' sanskrit or not, highly debatable. you are giving impression as if Sanskrit was taught in gurdwaras (or dharamsals as they were called earlier). This is true - Hindu,Sikh students used to study together and the syllabus included Hanuman Natak and Dasam Granth like Hindu (I can see some ultras squirming) scriptures

Sikhs are the ONLY ones who proudly lay claim to the non Sikh heritage of Punjab. Sikhs are proud of Muslims like Baba Bulle Shah, Varis Shah, Baba Farid among others while also being proud of Hindus like Raja Porus, GorakhNath, Pooran Bhagat, Shiv Kumar Batalvi. Sikhs are proud of their language and regard all of Punjab theirs. The other two communities do not do this. You yourself said in your previous post wrote:

"Instead of feeling proud of their forefathers for giving us one of world's five classical languages (sanskrit) and so many other things, they mock their heritage for a language whose very name has foreign origins."

This type of mentality is extremely unpatriotic of their own state and language. You do not even regard Punjabi as your mother tongue and say it has foreign origins. No other Hindu ethnicity in any other part of India shows this much contempt for their own language and state.

Excellent post Jung. My op, cannot fight bigotry (perceived or real) with bigotry.

Some idiots do not understand what they are squandering to achieve their narrow,petty hegemonic goals. Instead of feeling proud of their forefathers for giving us one of world's five classical languages (sanskrit) and so many other things, they mock their heritage for a language whose very name has foreign origins.

Your ancestors the Punjabi Hindus gave us nothing. Rather it is us Sikhs who have given you Sanskrit. The knowledge of Sanskrit was all but lost to the Punjabi Hindu which is why 5 Sikh Nirmalas went to UP to learn the language. It was them who revived and spread the knowledge of Sanskrit to Punjab and gave it to Punjabi Hindus. Sikh scholars such as Giani Ditt Singh, Prof Sahib Singh, Pandit Tara Singh Narotham, Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha's knowledge of Sanskrit was unrivaled in Punjab. Punjabi Hindus were known as illiterate and even called Malech by learned Pandit Hindus from Kashmir and the rest of India. You should thank the Sikhs for teaching you Sanskrit.

Actions have consequences. Your people through their hatred of the Sikhs tried to prevent the formation of a Punjabi Suba which would have been a Hindu majority state had they told the truth in the census. You appear not to understand that demand for a state based on language were happening all over India. It was only in Punjab that a community lied in the census to abort the creation of a Punjabi Suba.

That is why when ever I refer to his people I always differentiate Punjabi Hindus from the rest of the Hindus in India. No other Hindu ethnicity in any other state is a denier of his own language, only the Punjabi Hindus have this trait. While the Punjabi Muslim is ashamed to speak Punjabi because of an inferiority complex(they try to act arab/afghan/persian), but the only reason Punjab Hindus denied their own language was to oppose the Sikhs.

And this isn't the only time they opposed the Sikhs. When Sikhs wanted to declare Amritsar a holy city as Banaras is for Hindus, the Hindus of Amritsar held a counter procession against declaring Amritsar a holy city. What problem should they have if Amritsar is a holy city? They also built the Durgiana Mandir in the 1920s which has no historical significance to Hindu religion in competition to Sri Harmandir Sahib. They even copied the design!

Good one Neo, appears to another Neil Armstrong type Muslim propaganda then.

That Neil Armstrong story is still making rounds. Not too long ago I was debating a Muslim who told me that Neil Armstrong converted to Islam after he heard the Azaan in space lol and later moved to Palestine.

You are absolutely wrong! Bhagat Singh & co were not sectarian. Bhagat Singh, few months before his death, wrote an essay claiming he was an atheist. Udham singh gave his name as Ram Mohammad Singh Azad when arrested. Bhagat Singh family was Arya Samaji we all know that (mother name Vidyawati). The trio would have fought the terrorists who were primarily responsible for op Blue star and for killing hundreds (before 1984) of innocent Punjabis.

wow, first Baba Banda Singh Bahadur and now Bhagat Singh and Udham Singh as well? I must hand it to you. I have seen a lot of shameless people in my life but you will be one of the most memorable ones. I have seen the interview of Bhagat Singh's sister in which the interviewer asked her whether or not their family ever did paath when growing up. She said, her mother would recite paath for all the children daily, when he grew up he temporarily became an atheist but again became a believer in Sikhi while in jail and even grew his Kesh before dying something that hindus do not like to show in their bollywood movies.. And Udham Singh wanting to represent the entire Indian nation gave the honour to Hindus and Muslims by having that name. You should not confuse this nice gesture as proof of him not being a Sikh. The man took revenge for hundreds of Hindus and Muslims dying and what do Hindus do? they killed many times more of his people in 84 than had in jillianwala bagh massacre by the British.

By the way, new research into Udham Singh suggests, that name was Mohammad Singh Azad. The Ram part was later added by Hindus.

My family were also atheists types who had the typical habits of Punjabis(drinking, cutting hair, partying) before operation blue star. The suffering caused by Operation bluestar moved the Sikhs so much that my entire family became practicing Sikhs. This is the story of many people. Sikh freedom fighters who had fought for India's freedom, had they been young men during the 80s, they would have done what thousands of Sikh youth did by picking up the gun against the oppression being done on their people.