CdnSikhGirl

My intention was to show how ridiculous this type of generalisation sweeping statement really are.. Please kindly refrain for stereotyping all women these days as malech.. I think anyone who has mother, sister and wife and daughter would take offence to your sweeping remarks.

This is why I am seriously considering leaving this forum...

From the beginning it seemed to be a 'boys club'.

The members aside from their personal beliefs that women are 'less than' men, and therefore should have less privileges in Sikhi, but now it appears that you all are are actually LOOKING for reasons, any reason, to put women beneath men. And then in the same breath try to say that it has nothing to do with equality. Hyprocrites.

I personally take offence to a blanket statement saying that women are all lacking in morals, or are of impure desires, while you are all intimating that men are somehow more saintly. Or saying that women are unable to maintain rehet to the same degree as men and therefore don't even deserve the same amrit given to men.

I wonder what ANY of our Gurus would say in response to this... it's really disgraceful!

Wow, so now it's not just trying to say women should not be Panj Pyare but also that women should not even be entitled to the 'real' / same amrit as men at all... and I think I even read a bit in there about keski / dastar too and that women should not. So what.... Guru Gobind Singh Ji was sexist? And Sikhi was only for the men... let me guess, women were only kept around to cook langar for the men...

I really can't believe what I am reading here.

Some of you tout GRM as THE RM of Guru Ji... exact words from our Guru... but then, you admit that there were changes. Then you go back and try to say that the parts pertaining to women were the correct untouched parts and the changes 'must' be other parts... as if you want to pick and chose which parts are the original, based on your own beliefs about women.

I am in agreement with Singh123456777... Guru Gibing Singh Ji was not sexist. Barring either gender from necessary functions of what he was teaching as the vital philosophy and spirituality of human life, is suggesting that even our Creator was sexist against women. The Gurus all taught against such foolishness. We have already seen how easy it is to take something as 100% truth, and then discover that changes happened to what we thought was the 100% original words of Guru Gobind Singh Ji... Historical accounts all over the world were conveniently shaped by patriarchal systems, in favour of men, even when women achieved greatness. India was not immune.... no matter what you think. If all Sikhs were told to strive for taking Amrit... I highly doubt there was some diluted 'almost' amrit done with a kirpan to give women a 'sort of almost' amrit which was hierarchically lower than men. The Gurus taught that the SAME divine light is in everyone...

I have been away for awhile as I was in Kashmir, and I was there when the floods happened.... anyway, my question to everyone is... assuming the SGGSJ is taken as our only living Guru.... when we have a 'rule' document like reset maryadas which have been shown to be 'amended' and changed by humans... if there is an obvious disagreement between the RM and SGGSJ, which one are you supposed to follow? Which one wins out? It seems here that most of you would revert to the GRM, even when there is evidence of change from the original, and even though it means going against what is taught in SGGSJ... our only living Guru!

I have shown in previous posts how things which are in DDT's own copy of the GRM on their own website, deliberately take one tuk of a shabad out of context, in order to say that women should view their husband as 'God' while he views her as a loyal servant. The original shabad is talking about husband Lord... and all humans as soul-brides. Its obvious when you read the full shabad. But to take that one tuk and translate it so it says women should view their husbands as God... is wrong.

Also the only argument against women as Panj Pyare was that 'because that's what the GRM says... 'five Singhs" I have shown, that the GRM actually states 'Singhs' for ALL seva. But yet many of you have stated that women are not barred from those other seva... like akhand paths, ragis, granthi, even making kara prashad! The GRM states 'Singhs' for ALL of them. But yet you are trying to say that women are allowed to do those things and have been allowed in even DDT run Gurdwaras.... but in the same breath you keep quoting the GRM where it says 'five SIngh's' as the reason to bar women.... stating it's the infallible direct word of Guru Ji. If that were the case, then ALL seva is for men only. You can't pick and chose which things to bar women from.

And historical things can't be used to prohibit.... If that were the case then I should not vote because historically, women did not vote. If it were specifically prohibited for women to participate in anything at all.... don't you think Guru Ji would have specifically STATED IT somewhere....???? Anywhere???? And not just as an omission to be intimated. If he really was discriminating against women, and wanted us barred from things and restricted and treated as lower than men, it would have been stated somewhere directly. If it was important as say... not cutting kesh... wouldn't it be stated somewhere? Even in the GRM itself it doesn't specifically say 'no women' it just say's 'The Singhs who are doing this' well, it is not saying ' women can't do this' that is just saying that at the time, it was men who did it when that was written, so it was stated in that way. There is no specific restriction written anywhere in any RM stating that women should be restricted, prohibited, treated less than men.

I really ca't believe what I am reading in here from Singhs too! Who should divert to SGGSJ in ALL things if there is any doubt! Not historical accounts, not heresy, not RM's which have been changed over time... but the ONE UNCHANGED document that we all revere as the only living Guru... SGGSJ. And in there, it plainly states that the SAME DIVINE LIGHT is in ALL humans EQUALLY. That there is only ONE thing in existence in reality... God, and that essentially the DOER in ALL OF US, is ONE IN THE SAME. Therefore, there should be no restriction on any human because of what is between their legs.

This is all I am saying on this...

Chaz JI, you are referring to the Astral level only, when there are many more above it... Physical -- etheric -- astral -- mental --

So to say that the Astral realm is limited --- well yes it is... because the astral level is only a small portion of what exists. You can't experience ONEness in the astral level, but you can in levels much higher.

How do you ascend to higher levels? You have to raise your frequency to detune the astral level and tune into a higher level. And remember that consciousness is pure frequency so you have it within you. Also remember that love / caring etc are emotions which have a higher brainwave frequency... while anger and jealousy and fear cause lower brainwaves... so that is a starting point and also why seva helps. Its why those who are angry and fearful and jealous have much trouble progressing spiritually at least until they resolve the conflict.

And yes, I have experienced at least briefly the feeling of ONEness before, and while connected in that state, I lost connection to any sort of form. It was like I was the smallest pin point of consciousness, but at the same time I was everywhere. However it was very brief... I did experience the level above astral once... but never again after that one time.

Also, you ARE part of that source! YOU already know the way there.... you are NOT something separate from the creator. THAT'S the illusion...

thanks for the reply Satkirin,

Always a pleasure to read your posts...

some quick questions when you get a moment.

you said "The direct experience with God comes from the realization that you yourself are formless... that everything is ONE, everything is the same one universal field of consciousness... therefore, the DOER in all of us is one and the same" " It's not a direct experience... but more the knowledge that the subtle bodies are just more vehicles"

In all of your OBE's and Astral Travelling...have you experienced that formlessness? and therefore direct experience of GOD/your higher self? No...as you said it is NOT a direct experience but just helps in knowledge...creating a deeper theory into what might lie ahead...we still don;t know what lies ahead..but it gives us a small amount of insight...

So Astral travel plays a part...but not to the extent that Bhagat ji is stating...that one can have direct experience of God there...

you also said "You can experience this when you go higher (just look up a map to the planes of existence, the higher you go, the more detached and less 'personal' you become... until in the highest of realms, you actually experience ONEness."

So in reality you have stated yourself that you cannot experience formless reality (god/higher self) in the Astral realm...Astral realm is only a part of the journey ahead...

and through your OBE's and astral travelling...how do you intend to get to these higher realms where you will become even more subtle until finally you dip into the ultimate reality, your higher self...and the formless forever existing God Consciousness?

Are there road signs in the Astral Realm? where to go? how will you get there? and why have you not got there already?

so as Gurbani says, your faith, dyaan, attention, focus must be on the Shabad...on Naam Simran...on your interanal Guru / Guide...as the Shabad is the ONLY thing that can take you beyond physical, Astral, Causal, and whtever else there may be...because it comes from the SOURCE...it already knows the way home.

So for all the excitement and possibility of OBE's and Astral travelling...we cannot through our own efforts wandering in these realms find our way to the SOURCE by ourselves...only GURU can take us there.

And this is the reason why gurbani keeps things very clear and concise...surrender Ego to Waheguru, and put our minds on the Shabad via Naam Simran which will be our Sat Nav. that should in my opinion be our only aim and effort...to put our arm out and surrender in the hope Guru Ji (shabad) comes and pulls us up...

wandering in the Astral Realm without our Guru/Guide will not get us any closer to Waheguru...in Fact we are more likely to get lost just like in this world without Guru/Guide because we are still influenced by the 5 thieves there also

thanks for the reply Satkirin,

Always a pleasure to read your posts...

some quick questions when you get a moment.

you said "The direct experience with God comes from the realization that you yourself are formless... that everything is ONE, everything is the same one universal field of consciousness... therefore, the DOER in all of us is one and the same" " It's not a direct experience... but more the knowledge that the subtle bodies are just more vehicles"

In all of your OBE's and Astral Travelling...have you experienced that formlessness? and therefore direct experience of GOD/your higher self? No...as you said it is NOT a direct experience but just helps in knowledge...creating a deeper theory into what might lie ahead...we still don;t know what lies ahead..but it gives us a small amount of insight...

So Astral travel plays a part...but not to the extent that Bhagat ji is stating...that one can have direct experience of God there...

you also said "You can experience this when you go higher (just look up a map to the planes of existence, the higher you go, the more detached and less 'personal' you become... until in the highest of realms, you actually experience ONEness."

So in reality you have stated yourself that you cannot experience formless reality (god/higher self) in the Astral realm...Astral realm is only a part of the journey ahead...

and through your OBE's and astral travelling...how do you intend to get to these higher realms where you will become even more subtle until finally you dip into the ultimate reality, your higher self...and the formless forever existing God Consciousness?

Are there road signs in the Astral Realm? where to go? how will you get there? and why have you not got there already?

so as Gurbani says, your faith, dyaan, attention, focus must be on the Shabad...on Naam Simran...on your interanal Guru / Guide...as the Shabad is the ONLY thing that can take you beyond physical, Astral, Causal, and whtever else there may be...because it comes from the SOURCE...it already knows the way home.

So for all the excitement and possibility of OBE's and Astral travelling...we cannot through our own efforts wandering in these realms find our way to the SOURCE by ourselves...only GURU can take us there.

And this is the reason why gurbani keeps things very clear and concise...surrender Ego to Waheguru, and put our minds on the Shabad via Naam Simran which will be our Sat Nav. that should in my opinion be our only aim and effort...to put our arm out and surrender in the hope Guru Ji (shabad) comes and pulls us up...

wandering in the Astral Realm without our Guru/Guide will not get us any closer to Waheguru...in Fact we are more likely to get lost just like in this world without Guru/Guide because we are still influenced by the 5 thieves there also

the article states

Astral travel allows us to have a direct experience of God. It gives one an absolute knowingness that we are not our physical body or even our mind, and travel to the highest planes of consciousness.

From everything i've read in Gurbani and other writing of Saints, and my current experience of Simran so far, this line doesn't quite sit right with me...

Astral travel is just an experience of another of gods creations...it is still a product of the mind...a creation, so it cannot give us the experience of going beyond the mind...and therefore not give you a direct experience of God. you have to remain un-attached to this plane and move beyond it into the mental realm and beyond again etc

Yes, you very quickly realise that physical death is not the end of everything for you...that you continue beyond the death of the physical body, but you now have another body...and that body has a life span also, and from what i gather from experience so far...we can still feel sttachment, ego, desire, anger, greed, lust within that body

Also, from my very limited experience thus far, it seems there are many layers of the Astral Plane...lower layers that are experienced/atracted if your mindset is very negative and dark....and higher planes if you are doing your Simran and making effort to cleanse your mind and 5 thieves...naam Simran and the pull of the inner shabad will act like your express elevator taking you to the penthouse suite.

i have no doubt guru ji could astral travel and used it to show others the vastness of creation...and i have no doubt that Guru Ji can take people beyond creation and beyind the mind, into the formless

Chaz Ji I have to disagree with some of what you wrote...

From my experiences with AP / EP while it's true that you are experiencing higher levels through other subtle bodies, there is the whole experience of what lies between those levels. It's not a direct experience... but more the knowledge that the subtle bodies are just more vehicles - but your consciousness remains intact. That means the part of you that is the experiencer, the 'doer' is not those subtle bodies at all. So it's realization through indirectly experiencing it. The direct experience with God comes from the realization that you yourself are formless... that everything is ONE, everything is the same one universal field of consciousness... therefore, the DOER in all of us is one and the same. You can experience this when you go higher (just look up a map to the planes of existence, the higher you go, the more detached and less 'personal' you become... until in the highest of realms, you actually experience ONEness. There was a GREAT diagram made by Tim Duerden based on knowledge from several spiritual paths, linking the subtle bodies to the planes, and showing where the limit of the 'personal self' etc is in the grand scheme of things... His site however is down, and I can't find it again. But there are others that illustrate it.

The way I explain OBEs: Nothing is leaving anything at all. YOU ARE. Imagine you are a radio. Only the radio is formless... basically you are pure consciousness. All that exists is pure frequency (even the physical... Einstein even said that matter is merely energy vibrating at a slow frequency) So you, the radio, are focused on only one radio station at a time... the physical, the etheric, the astral etc. You never left anything, you only 'tuned' into a higher frequency station. All stations, all frequencies however are ALWAYS received by the antenna... it's the tuner that choses the station. In our case in the physical world, as Einstein stated, low frequency = slow vibration = matter. The higher frequency you go, the higher 'stations' you tune into, you get more complex structures but less matter (for example, plasma, gases etc are higher frequency than solids). Watch an oscilloscope though as you change a pitch higher, the faster a wave vibrates, the closer the peak and trough become until you reach a point where it appears there is no more vibration, only one discrete frequency... it looks like a straight line instead of a wave. So eventually you go high enough to just experience the pure frequency itself = ONEness = God realization.

This is just a way I try to get the idea across... using a radio as comparison makes sense to me when we are talking frequency....

Sorry I have already settled on the pink now thanks to a bunch of people at the gurdwara Sunday telling me how pink was my colour... (I wore the suit that I am wearing in my avatar pic, so you can see it's a pale tea pink colour). I'll attach the actual pic so you can see... Red actually might be too hard on me, only because I have such pale skin. Pink seems to work better anyway, and then I won't have to worry about the red/green thing. But...nobody answered my question about Amritdhari Sikhs who serve in the army?? Army uniforms pretty much everywhere in the world wear green! Is it overlooked among any Takaslis who join the army? Or do they just not join the army? I'm lucky I'm in the Navy and my uniforms are dark blue for work dress and black/white for dress uniform.

So seeing the pic of the pink suit on me, and the colours we chose are similar (only the fabric will be satiny silk brocade fabric and there is heavy embroidery on the suit) I think pink will work... just need to get pink turban material to match for him. I'll wear a white dastar under. And he can wear white sherwani. So we will match

Those are stupid colours.

Go. for. Red! Go. for. Red! Go. for. Red!

Give me a R

Give me a E

Give me a D

Isn't it interesting that the word Lal which means Red is also used to refer to one's beloved. In this case for Guru Arjun Dev ji it was Waheguru.

ਸਦਾ ਰੰਗੀਲਾ ਲਾਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਏਹੁ ਮਹਿੰਜਾ ਆਸਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

My Beloved Lover is always and forever beautiful. He is my hope and inspiration. ||1||Pause||

I remembered reading this online before:

http://www.wahegurunet.com/astral-plane

(I can't speak to the validity of it or not, but I read your comments and it triggered my memory of that page, so I just looked it up again)

Ok so I changed my colour scheme to tea pink, onion pink, gold... instead of the original colours the suit comes in... which was red, blue, gold. I wore pink to the Gurdwara yesterday and was told that pink really is my colour anyway, so I think it will still look good, and since it's not red it won't cause a ruckus. (Though truth be told, avoiding colours really has me feeling like I am following blind ritual). But I do like the pink colour scheme with this design once we made a mock up of the fabrics, so I will go with that. And I will get him to wear pink turban to match. I will wear white dastar under the pink chunni, and he can wear white suit so it will work well I think for the wedding. Heres the colours we decided on in the end. I think it will be good maybe it looks better than red on me anyway since I am fair skinned.

p.s. regarding green colour, what do Amritdhari Sikhs in the army do? Is it kind of overlooked then since it's a uniform and they can't serve in the army without wearing green? Just curious... (I know it's just Taksalis that follow this, but are there any Taksalis in the army? Would they avoid joining because of the uniforms? If it seems like a stupid question I apologize, I just got thinking about it because myself I am in the military, though I am Navy not army and we wear black and white... and Navy blue in work dress. But army definitely wears green... a lot of green! Even Indian army!)

Match your suit with your Husband's turban colour. If you wear pink, get him to wear a Pink turban.

But imo Pink is a weak version of Red. Red is intense, flamboyant and attractive! I don't know why you won't just wear Red. Just wear a red chunni and compare it with a pink one. Compare the two photos. I bet you the red one looks way better.

Yes, but everyone are saying red is forbidden... and I don't want to any chances of anyone picking at me on my big day for doing something that *might* be against Sikhi.

So if I change to a combo of tea pink (light pink like in my current avatar pic) and onion pink (bit darker pink) with gold embroidery... that will be ok? (not bright pink like magenta) btw I am not Taksali and do not follow GRM... I follow SRM. But I don't want to hurt anyone sentiments since I am getting married in India. However as far as I know, his whole family (who are Amritdhari) follow SRM and not GRM. They are not Taksali... or any specific Jatha for that matter. But just to keep peace and not have anyone picking at me, pink is ok?

With green eyes soft pink would be beautiful.

Please do not wear a salwar suit for your wedding. Your wedding has to be much much much much more special.

http://dressanarkali.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/anarkali-Pink-Wedding-Wear-Salwar-Kameez-Suit.jpg

Unfortunately, I am not tall.... at all.... so floor length anarkali do NOT look good on me... I get lost in all the flowy bottom.... lehenga same thing... so thats why I went with semi patiala but trust me the kameez makes up for it... its MUCH more embellished than the two anarkalis you linked!

If you ever come to Ontario then you could meet my sister and she could help you choose a wedding dress for you lol.

Thats just it... I found the one I want.... I love it... but it's red lol. It's a regular salwar suit but it's the embroidery on it and the trim etc that I love... but its red! And I kind of really like the red... will this set me back another 8.4 million lifetimes?? lol.

Ny sister got married last year and she wore a really nice golding orangish anarkali and it was really nice looking.

In my opinion I would wear blue with silver for a wedding.

Congrats on the wedding

Is it gonna be in India or Canada?

Thanks! Kind of both... anand karaj in Kashmir, and legal ceremony in Canada.

And... I do not look good at all in blue... and I don't think he likes blue either. I have bright green eyes... so blue in general (unless it's just accent colour) somehow clashes on me haha.

But it is a per hindu custom, that Sikhs have again started to wear red again.

Do Hindus have a monopoly on the colour red?

Why can't colours just be.... colours? And why can't clothes just be clothes? Why can't someone wear a red shirt for example, because they are drawn to red roses? To me, the red rose is no less deserving than the orange or yellow one...

Anyway, I am getting married next Summer. And the suit I really fell in love with, happens to be red... hence my question. Well, it's red base colour but with gold and navy blue embroidery. I thought it would work well with a navy blue dastar.

But it's red... well probably more dark red... like maroon... will I be committing some ghastly crime if I get married wearing red?

Case in point... see attached images...

chatanga1: Here are the 52 Hukams... pls show me where it says red / green (or any colour for that matter) are prohibited?

1. Earn by honest means.
2. Donate a tenth share of your salary.
3. Memorize Gurbani.
4. Wake up Amrit Vela (before dawn).
5. Devotedly serve the Sikh who serves others.
6. Learn the meanings of Gurbani from Sikh Scholars.
7. Follow the discipline of the 5 K's strictly.
8. Practice Shabad Gurbani in life.
9. Concentrate on the True Guru (God).
10. Accept Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru.
11. At the beginning of a task, perform ardaas
12. At birth, death, or marriage ceremonies, do Japji Sahib, make Karaah Parshaad, do five stanzas of Anand Sahib, do ardaas, and then distribute Karaah Parshaad to the Panj Pyare, the Granthi, and then to the sangat.
13. Until Karaah Parshaad is completely distributed, the Sangat should remain sitting and unmoving.
14. Do not start married life without Anand Karaj (Sikh ceremony of marriage).
15. Recognize all other women other than your wife as mothers and sisters. Do not engage in marital behaviour with them.
16. Do not subject your wife to cursing or verbal abuse.
17. Abandon worldly falsehoods and tobacco-poison.
18. Keep the company of Sikhs who follow the Rehat and meditate on the Name (of God).
19. Don't be lazy while doing work.
20. Listen and do kirtan and Gurbani discourses daily.
21. Do not engage in slander, gossip or spite anyone
22. Do not take pride in wealth, youth and caste. (Mother and Father's caste both castes. All Sikhs of the Guru are siblings)
23. Keep the religious discipline high and pure.
24. Do not refrain from doing Righteous deeds.
25. Recognize God as the giver of intellect and strength.
26. Do not believe a person who swears (one who tries/attempts to convince someone with a 'saun or saugandh').
27. Think independently. In the affairs of governing, do not give the power of religious authority to those of other faiths.
28. Study politics.
29. With the enemy, practice/deploy the various techniques/tactics of diplomacy (saam, daam, dand, bhed) and exhaust all techniques before engaging in warfare.
30. Practice the knowledge of weaponry and horse riding.
31. Study the books and knowledge of other faiths. But keep trust in Gurbani and Akal Purukh.
32. Follow the teachings of the Guru.
33. After Rehras Paatth [Prayers], do Ardaas standing up.
34. Recite Sohila and 'paun guru pani pita...' stanza before going to sleep.
35. Wear a turban at all times.
36. Do not call a Singh by half of their name (nickname).
37. Do not partake of alcoholic drinks.
38. Do not given a daughter's hand to a clean shaven. Give her hand in a house where God's Sikhi exists, where the household is not in debt, is of a good nature, is disciplined and knowledgeable.
39. Do all work in accordance with Gurbani.
40. Do not ruin someone's work by gossip.
41. Do not utter bitter statements.
42. Make pilgrimages to Gurudwaras only.
43. Fulfill all promises that are made
44. Do as much sewa as you can for foreigners, the needy and the troubled.
45. Recognize the property of a daughter as poison. (Do not live off your daughter's wealth)
46. Do not become an outward show-off Sikh.
47. Live and die a Keshadhaari Sikh (A Sikh who has uncut hair)
48. Refrain from engaging in theft, adultery / promiscuity / permissiveness, fraud, deceit, embezzlement.
49. Believe a true Sikh.
50. Do not give false testimony.
51. Do not cheat.
52. Distribute Langar and Karaah Parshaad with equality.

As for those who said that SRM has holes and is incomplete: Some say this, and others say that GRM is too restrictive actually bordering on useless rituals which the Gurus taught against. Like it or not, MANY Sikhs follow the SRM. Not all Sikhs are Taksalis, so one jatha's more restrictive RM can not speak for the entire panth.

So in all things we are supposed to look to SGGSJ for guidance correct? Please show me in SGGSJ, our only Guru, where red (and green) are prohibited.

The quote by sher seems to suggest the opposite:

sloku mÚ 1 ]

salok ma 1 || Salok, First Mehla: nw mYlw nw DuMDlw nw Bgvw nw kcu ] naa mailaa naa dhhu(n)dhhalaa naa bhagavaa naa kach || Neither dirty, nor dull, nor saffron, nor any color that fades. nwnk lwlo lwlu hY scY rqw scu ]1] naanak laalo laal hai sachai rathaa sach ||1||

O Nanak, crimson - deep crimson is the color of one who is imbued with the True Lord. ||1||

In fact I went on srigranth.org and searched for crimson myself and every instance is an example suggesting that crimson (red) is a spiritual colour. There are no instances where it suggests avoiding this colour.

On the contrary and when we dig a little deeper, SGGSJ suggests in numerous places that the colour of one's clothes does not matter at all. It makes reference to ascetics etc wearing all white (just as one example) and makes the statement that this will not bring you closer to Waheguru Ji. This also suggests that avoiding certain colours is useless in bringing you closer to the divine. In the case of crimson, it's making the statement that wearing crimson for the specific purpose of bringing you closer to the divine is useless... instead naam colours your soul crimson - it's using crimson as a comparison to show the needlessness of useless rituals like avoiding / only wearing certain colours. It's our actions and not what we wear that gets us there.

So... none of this actually prohibits wearing red...

Red and green should never be worn for an amritdhari Sikh. It is Bachman of Sri guru gobind Singh ji maharaj

Where can I find this? It's not anywhere in the SRM... I've looked it top to bottom!

I remember reading somewhere online that red should not be worn by the bride or groom... but then when I went to look at the SRM, it doesn't say anything about clothing colour for the wedding, so I am wondering where I saw this? Is it true, should bride not wear red at all? Because every Sikh bride I see, even Gursikh turban wearing seem to wear red lehenga or punjabi suit... or a shade thereof like maroon.

In Sikh Rehet Maryada the only thing I was able to find about red at all is that it says they should not wear a "red thread around their wrist" (which I am assuming is in reference to the Hindu Kalava or Rakhi)?

As a side note I can't seem to find it again online or anywhere for that matter (so maybe I am going crazy lol), where it stated that red should not be worn... so maybe it was a mistranslation of the above mentioned part of SRM?

Agreed...

(you asked) As I said there are methods to keep those things within the female body, even during that time...yes entirely within the zone of the skin.

I realize back in time, there weren't the products available today, but there are now several that *ahem* keep *female red blood cells* within the confines of the body until said product is removed. Im sure you can google and figure them out. With those products there is not a single chance that anything would leave the body at the wrong time.... Marvels of modern hygene product industry... and then there are females like myself who take injection (myself because I was experiencing problems, but others take it because they have had as many children as they want) and it completely stops female cycles alltogether. Then, there are older aunties, who do not have that issue anymore at all anyway.

Either way it's totally possible in this day and age to remain just as clean as any other time. So it should not be an issue to barring women from anything at all. That same guy I posted the FB screenshot from, he told me that the women where excluded all the time because the men would never be able to tell if she was or not... that's just wrong. It's a private issue between the woman and Waheguru Ji. Its not up to the men to enforce, any more than they stand guard and make sure every man washes his hands or changes their clothes etc.

Hmm you reminded me of seeing a photo recently of a Singh who fell asleep during akhand paath, mid recital. The photo made it all over the net. Obviously he was not pure of mind to allow that to happen.

excuse me... but I am backing up all my statements with gurbani! How about you??

All I have seen you guys do is say that "well, so and so said it so it must be true"... or "it's tradition"... or "learn the culture"... or perhaps my most favourite... "just accept it". I have not seen any of you actually try to justify your answers using Gurbani! My original post was a valid question! I read GRM so I could better unserdtand your position. I was told in the other thread that DDT do not discriminate women except for Panj Pyare. So I went to DDT own website to research and give you the benefit of the doubt.

However, when I actually read the GRM, it was apparent this is not true. Women are in fact discriminated from nearly all seva by DDT. So that guy who told me on Facebook was actually right (the one I posted screenshots from i the other thread). My questions were regarding the statement about women considering men as God, and men considering women as followers. And also the usage of 'Singh' in all the seva listed in GRM. When it is you guys who are saying things like "here's the quote from GRM, it states Singhs for Panj Pyare so women can't be end of story" - using that same argument, you can't disagree with the other places where it states 'Singh'. So I was trying to get you to clarify this discrepency.

You state you fully believe 100% in the GRM and consider SRM as garbage (actually I believe you called it worse than that savinderpalsingh ji), but yet both of you are saying you disagree with the parts in GRM where it says 'Singh' everywhere else? You can't apply the rule in one spot and not another... I am only asking for clarification from YOUR point of view. Not answers of "just because" or "just accept it" I am looking for honest answers, that agree with Gurbani which should dispell any doubts. As Sikhs are we not all supposed to be seekers and search for the truth? What kind of Sikhs would we be then, if we just 'accepted' everything we are told by someone else without learning on our own?

Instead all of you keep saying the same thing over and over... "just because" "just accept it" "It's tradition" etc. - It looks to me that I am the only one who is trying to learn! I am actually trying to apply Gurbani to both GRM and SRM to substantiate it. SGGSJ is supposed to be our highest authority is it not? So I can't see how any RM could disagree with it. Especially in translations of single tuks, which when the whole shabad is read, have nothing to do with how it's being used in the GRM. Jaikara Ji also agrees with the meaning of that shabad so its not only me who sees it.

These were VALID questions that all of you have avoided and instead attacked me, calling me a man hater. I don't hate men. However I feel sorry for the men who can't see the divine light EQUALLY in everyone and feel they must always be 'above' women. Luckily there are plenty of Sikh men who do not fall into this thinking and my Singh is one of those. He actually fights for women's rights at Sri Harmandir Sahib!

I have a friend Kirpal Singh Ji who is a university professor who I told about this forum. I think he started posting on a different forum by accident, but I myself am only on this forum and Sikh Philosophy Network. Kirpal Singh btw is 67 years old and has a lot of knowledge under his belt. He is not a know it all. He studied with SMC.

savinderpalsingh ji,

I did not say I agree with everything SGPC does. Like any they have their faults. I think DDT have MORE faults though. They are tredding on close terriroty to being the Taliban of Sikhi in their views of women.

I just that the SRM in my opinion is the closest ideal to what our Gurus taught, and it passes the test in agreement with SGGSJ most closely. I don't see anywhere in SGGSJ that states to treat women as beneath men, or to discriminate against women. I see only messages that the same divine light is in everyone equally. How can you say that that same light in one form is any less pure than that same light in another? SGGSJ doesn't say its more pure in men, and less pure in women. SGGSJ doesnt say that the divine light in female form is any less than in male form. Or that the divine light in male form is more privelaged.

I have a feeling that unless I become a male however, none of you will ever have any sort of respect for me being female. I am starting to think I need to do just that in order to be accepted. You know, my cousin is actually doing just that...funny thing is, one transitioned, she would actually be accepted more than me in Sikhi it seems. Or (then he) would be able to do more than me anyway.

Yes he should avoid seva until his finger heals. Imagine if the band aid came off and and he was doing langar seva. That would be no hygienic.

It's not brahmnisim(I think you do not understand this word cause your throwing it aroun all over the place) its a matter of being clean. If I went to the washroom and did number 2 can I go and do seva or hukamnama? No because I would not be clean. Same thing with the period for women.

Well luckily there are drugs that completely stop women's cycles. You can actually take birth control pills continually... or take the injection (liek I do), or IUD. All those options completely stop any chance of cycle alltogether.

So if we are really that unclean or impure during that time as you say.... I dont see why washing wouldnt work for that as well? Even for those who don't take drugs to stop their cycles, there are means to keep it entirely 'internal' (without getting into details, but there are products made just for that). A woman during that time anyway would have absolutely no chance of getting anything into food during langar seva or getting anything anywhere near SGGSJ. Its not like she bleeds from her whole body, and doesn't wash her hands etc... wow... I cant believe what i am reading.

Someone who just went #2 and washed their hands... or a woman who just washed her hands after dealing with her cycle... same thing.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji says to wash hands after doing number 1 or 2. Most goray don't even wash their hands! That's disgusting!

I agree! Everyone should... that's just basic hygene! eewww and its not most goray?? wow... everyone I know does.

So am I to asume now that you guys think all the discrimination are because women have cycles?? You guys have completely diverted the question I posed in the original post. And instead now you are attacking women for natural biological functions.

Anyway none of you have answered my original question. That being that the Gurmat Rehet Maryada states 'Singh' in all of the seva (aside from langar) that includes Ragees/kirtan, chaur sahib seva, akhand paaths, granthi, etc. All of them state 'singh' which is the same argument people quote to show that women can not be Panj Pyare. I did not get that translation from anyone else for the GRM. It was from Damdami Taksal's own website. And I earlier posted screenshots from a DDT member that confirmed it.

Yet Sant Jarnail Singh Ji spoke against all of it except for Panj Pyare. So who is correct? Is it the Gurmat Rehet Maryada? If so, then why would a Sant speak against it? Or was he correct? And if so, that shows the Rehet itself is in need of some editing / updating for today's society.

And yes... women WOULD be stopped completely if they tried to do kirtan at Harmandir Sahib. Or Palki seva, etc.

There is a sucham concept about it as well. Women have periods and they won't be able to do any seva when they are on their period. I have a mother and sister who both do Prakash and sukhasan of guru ji but they never ever do it when they are on their period because of reasons only a women knows. If you say that women can do seva when they are on their period then you don't care about sucham.

Would you say a man who has cut his finger is unclean with a bandaid covering it? Should he then avoid doing seva until his cut heals?

This idea of blood being somehow unclean is against sikhi. Blood is a life force. Its not dirt. A woman during that time of the month is no less clean than any other time. Thats just foolishness - Bhraminism at its best! Let's look at Gurbani for the asnwer:

ਜਿਉ ਜੋਰੂ ਸਿਰਨਾਵਣੀ ਆਵੈ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰ ॥

Ji▫o jorū sirnāvaṇī āvai vāro vār.

As a woman has her periods, month after month,

ਜੂਠੇ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥

Jūṯẖe jūṯẖā mukẖ vasai niṯ niṯ ho▫e kẖu▫ār.

so does falsehood dwell in the mouth of the false; they suffer forever, again and again.

ਸੂਚੇ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਜਿ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਧੋਇ ॥

Sūcẖe ehi na ākẖī▫ahi bahan jė pindā ḏẖo▫e.

They are not called pure, who sit down after merely washing their bodies.

ਸੂਚੇ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥

Sūcẖe se▫ī nānkā jin man vasi▫ā so▫e. ||2||

Only they are pure, O Nanak, within whose minds the Lord abides. ||2||

women can do kirtan and many classical bibi ji's who do amazing kirtan .

even at harmandir sahib , muslims and other religion people used to do gurbani kirtan before sgpc , changed RM

there is no bhramanization in DDT,

regarding that line as god

i didnt see it anywhere , in detailed maryada by Sant Gurbachan Singh ji .

thats why i said, i choose too leave it to be explained by taksali singh himself

It wasnt SGPC who changed it... SGPC were the ones who ruled that it was allowed.

"The Damdami Taksal, yesterday outrightly rejected the proposal for allowing the baptised women to perform kirtan [hymn singing] inside the Harmandir Sahib, the sanctum sanctorum of Golden Temple.

The Damdami Taksal's resolve to oppose this move was also supported by the Sant Samaj, a conglomerate of Sikh preachers headed by Baba Sarbjot Singh Bedi, at a function here on the occasion of the death anniversary of Sant Kartar Singh Bhindranwale.

It may be recalled that the S.G.P.C. had last week taken the decision to allow women to perform kirtan inside the Harmandir Sahib. The decision had been taken at a meeting of the S.G.P.C.'s Religious Advisory Board."

Honestly not bad. I would if I was a feminist like you. Understand that men and women will always be different no matter what you say.

Maybe I am really a man then??

Maybe I should get gender reassignment surgery so that the outside will match the inside? lol

First of all ..about that tuk...it is not describing laws of marriage ..

I fully agree!!!

But they are using it as such! they twist it from saying "who views the transcendent lord as her husband" (which has nothing to do with marriage - to - "who views her husband as God." and include it in the marriage section of the GRM.