CdnSikhGirl

I don't believe anything actually leaves the physical body. You are just tuning into a different frequency. Nothing is leaving though... You are just shifting awareness to a different point. So all you are doing is focusing on a different level of reality. The radio concept is really the best way I can explain it... You are the antenna, your consciousness is the dial tuning into a particular frequency physical being lowest frequency. Your awareness just tunes into the next higher station but your physical body remains and the antenna is still receiving all the information from the physical channel... You just happen to be listening to a different station at the time.

blurry and really heavy to move around. I said to myself within the dream , lets have an OBE and leave this body. I tried to twist my body and rolled out of it. And it did feel that I just rolled out of my body on the side. Then I wanted to lift my body as if getting out of bed. It was really heavy. I could barely move. It felt as if I was moving in a dense liquid. The feeling you get when you are trying to punch someone in a dream, and everything is superslow.

This is extremely common and IS associated with an OBE. There are several types of OBEs... Etheric projection is the typical floating over your body and seeing the physical surroundings and astral projection is more dreamlike and mystical.. the surroundings in astral projection may not be exactly like physical surroundings and more dreamlike. Either way, the heavy feeling, unable to move like you are stuck in glue etc is very very common. It's like you are not totally disconnected from the physical so you are trying to control your subtle body and the message gets mixed between your physical body which is in a paralysis state and your subtle body... so it doesn't quite work. When you think of it all of reality is really vibration in a medium and the different levels are just different frequencies... I think of like a radio dial as I mentioned before... we are always receiving ALL transmissions, but we only tune into one 'station' at a time. In this case you are stuck somewhere on the dial between two stations, where you can hear a bit from both stations at once. That's the best way I can explain it if it makes sense... it does to me. In reality I believe nothing actually 'leaves' the body... you are just shifting awareness away from the physical to your subtle body which always exists anyway, its just that you are always tuned into the physical.

Fully agree... It's those who read it and immediately think it is saying women are impure and dirty and use it as justification to subdue women and put them into subordinate roles and control them... they are totally missing the point and actually causing the very thing it is warning against! When all humans contain the same divine light, and the same awareness, and same capacity for thought and desire to participate in society, then when any group are forced into subordinate roles by another, of course they will try to use what means they can in order to have their voice heard... even if it's through manipulation. Not just females in this position but slaves throughout history too... when they can't physically retaliate this is inevitable. It is an accurate depiction of society and power struggle for control over others and the damage it does. Equality of everyone is the only answer as N30 S!NGH pointed out. = It actually took me awhile to arrive at the same conclusion on my own (before I ever came to this site) but I had to get past what seemed like very sexist writing first. I think the point 'could' have been gotten across using more varied examples so it didn't put women into such spotlight... but maybe that was the point. Guru Ji wanted to elevate women to absolute equal status and so the situation needed to be exposed in it's full horror.

My personal belief is that to understand Dasam Granth one needs to be in the highest state of mind where duality has been destroyed. Bani is above the three gunas of rajo, tamo, sato. Only by being in Sehaj state, one can truly understand it. Once the Sikh has the vision that is desribed in Akal Ustat Ji, one will get more clarity. We should get the basics right first, as described by Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj then we will receive the kirpa to read and understand Banis of Dhan Sri Dasam Pita Ji.

Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Ji Maharaj, please shower your blessings and grace. I am nothing. Please grant me shakti so that I can be able to follow your basic instructions.

Dhan Dhan Pita Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj.!!!!!

I had the kara made through sikhkaras.com

You can take any of their styles and have it made in any metal (steel, white iron or sarbloh) and even with engraving if you wish... I only have a plain one edge thin kara with no engraving as I am a bit uneasy about wearing Gurbani (though I did custom order for a tiny bit heavier weight around 30g and in white iron. I also need a custom size because 6.4 is too large and 5.7 is a tad too tight for me... so I needed a 6.0 cm right in the middle of their XS and S)

They were very helpful and I have had my kara on since it arrived and never took it off!

This is the style I ordered:
http://www.sikhkaras.com/karas/classic/clo-20/

You can order one edge, 5 lines, round etc in any sort of weight up to several hundred grams. And all of them can be made in white iron or sarbloh instead of steel.

Their karas may cost a bit more than usual but they are finished very professionally... not that I care about the looks but the inside against my wrist is very smooth, no sharp edges etc.

I am so glad to read this... I just got into a spiritually draining topic on another Sikh forum where most of the members are very athiestic in their interpretation of Gurbani. Any reference to 'reincarnation' to them means simply states of mind and vast majority of them even deny the existence of a creator... instead redferring only to 'creation' with no conscious creator. I tried and tried to explain to them these same things about reality being dream of Waheguru Ji, everything being ONE and that our true nature is nonphysical / spiritual (and even backed up with quantum physics), but most of them believe that this physical life is 'it' and nothing exists beyond. I don't know how they can call themselves Sikhs since they even called me hateful for stating simply that they were atheistic in their views. IMO that interpretation turns Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji into merely a psychology book on how to get along with the neighbours. They actually became so defensive and accusing and mean that they drove me away from that forum completely.

Not a science student... I am in the Canadian Navy... but I had a very deep interest in this subject as I happen to be one of those who react with sarbloh... so I wear a 'white iron' kara instead. It has the same look as sarbloh (not shiny like steel) and it retains the magnetic properties. I had researched it only because some places will not allow a steel kara during Amrit, stating it must be sarbloh. And they apparently check by seeing if it attracts a magnet. Obviously its easy to tell if a kara is steel though because its so shiny and flawless, while iron is dull, more like gunmetal colour as you stated... White iron looks the same as sarbloh.... it just doesn't oxidize as easily, it's less reactive to skin. So for my own kowledge I had looked all of this up prior, and saw your post so I thought I would share what I learned

Sister thanks for that explanation!

Are you a science student btw?

theekah, I think using Gurmantar would speed up the process of clearing the mind and relaxing. When its happened to me its been in the mornings, do you think its easier at amrit vela?

Quite possibly... it is the quietest time usually so would be way less distraction of ambient noises etc.

Bhenji, I haven't had them many times so I still don't really know what I'm doing. Could you explain step by step how you get to the experience?

There are different methods... but the most common is progressive relaxation. Lay on your back (for some reason on back is best). Some books suggest aligned north / south not east / west. Then focus on your feet... flex and relax... then your lower legs, then upper etc... until your entire body is completely relaxed. Then At that point, focus on clearing your mind and recognize when sleep starts to take over. At that point tell yourself (in your mind) that you WILL have an OBE. The idea is that as last thing on your mind as sleep takes over your subconscious will listen and understand.

There are other methods like using dreams to launch into a lucid dream and from there into an OBE. There are methods that have you mentally produce a double or copy of yourself above your body... then mental flip your aspect in your mind so you are the vantage point of the double. Another uses roll out method... where from complete relaxation, you mentally roll sideways out of your body.

There are a bunch... just try them until you find one that works. Actually, many believe we all do it every night anyway and are just not aware... so it might be just that we need to somehow stay conscious of it more than actually leaving... Personally I don't think it's that we are leaving at all but more like we are a radio antenna, and the different subtle bodies are like radio stations... we don't leave the physical so much as tune into a different frequency. Even though we listen to one station at a time, we are actually receiving all of them at once.

On the other hand however, there is that primitive male-dominated social order which treats her like an object of sexual desire and keeps her confined to the parameters of the house. Such social structure pushes her towards destructive activities. Her extremely sharp intellect and limitless strength is capable of breaching walls of the house; even in that confinement, she has the capacity to destroy the biggest of kings, wealthy and powerful people without using even a single weapon. Therefore, it is up to the male society to decide whether it wants to choose destruction or progression. The path of equality of men and women leads to progression, while inequality will most certainly bring about destruction and chaos. If male society chooses the road of progression and gives her equal opportunities in constructive tasks, evils, oppressions, and immorality will be destroyed. But, if she is sidelined and forced to live under shadow of males, she will keep reminding male society of her limitless force even while treading on the path forced upon her.

THIS^^^^ You hit the nail on the head!

I have been trying to explain this for years... that both males and females have been born with the same potential and the same desires and needs internally for a fulfilling life. If either one or the other is dominated and forced into a subordinate role, they will use what tools they have in order to try to get their equal share of a fulfilling and rewarding life. (It would be the same if men were subdued into the subordinate role, only their tools to retaliate would be different... brute force)

Women forced into subordinate roles by Patriarchal society still have the same wants and needs as men (I don't mean sexually... I mean they have the same desires to pursue careers, make a difference in the world, have input in society, be treated and respected as equals) But forced into a subordinate role in a society where she is seen as nothing more than a tool for men's pleasure and not even as a human in some cases... then in order to have any sort of say in society at all, her only means is to influence the men in her life. It's that or basically be shut up and be a slave. Her choices in that system are either shut up and be miserable and never have her voice heard, revolt (as in the case of the feminism movement - and risk punishment), or quietly influence the decisions of the men she has access to do so by deceiving them.

Not condoning anyone being deceitful or having ulterior motives, but even worse were the men who put her in that position in the first place to be a prisoner with no way out and that was the only way to have her voice heard or influence society at all.

It's only when we realize that men and women are equal that this power struggle will stop. Everyone needs to be respected, and have their voices heard and have input in society. Everyone needs to have the same opportunities.

This is more a message for men, to stop treating women in this way. Treat them as equal partners in life. If the roles were reversed men would do exactly the same thing (only as I said their tools are different... they would use brute force mot likely.) And there were Matriarchal societies too in the past!

SGGSJ says it best where it describes the interaction of male female... when it says that a married couple do not just sit together but become one soul in two bodies. That is profound... that not only are they equal but they are actually ONE... a team. That is not a master / subordinate relationship but one of total equality.

We need to stop thinking about men vs women and look beyond Patriarchal societies or Matriarchal societies... and look at EQUAL society. Many people use Dasam Granth as a justification to further put women into subordinate roles. Hence it is the 'real' reason why women are excluded from much of the spiritual duties of DDT for example. Further to this, they make things worse by 'allowing' or 'disallowing' women to do things. That in itself implies that they believe men should control women. I had a friend an Amritdhari Bibi who tried to do seva at Harmandir Sahib awhile back and was stopped by a Singh there... who did not even talk to her, but told her husband to 'Control his Singhni'. These groups who restrict women are actually doing what these stories are warning against.... They see only a message of women being dirty, morally unclean, deceitful and vile creatures. However I have had a DDT follower claim to me that Guru's Hukam is for men to control women because women are inherently impure and used Dasam Granth as the justification and told me that I was just refusing to accept my lot in life as subordinate to men. He failed to see that in these stories, the men who caused the women to become like that were even worse than the women and he was doing those same things!!

(consequently, this is why I have such a hard time with DDT - not that all members are like that I am sure but the ones I have met have been.)

This same expose of human nature is not just women... not even women / men.... but in any group, when one group dominates and restricts another, the other is forced to use whatever means they have in order to survive. The only answer is in equality.

I am still not 100% sure if Dasam Granth can be attributed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji or not... I read it... but I only go by Guru Granth Sahib Ji as final authority on anything as that is our only Guru.

Pure Iron (i.e.: elemental iron) is very difficult to find in nature, and is not very useful. Iron needs to be alloyed to be useful.

Sarbloh, is wrought iron - which due to low smelting temperatures, has the lowest amount of carbon in it (~1%), and was worked into forms, while cast iron was smelted higher temperatures and ended up with higher carbon content (~5%) and was poured into moulds (cast). Both have their benefits... wrought iron is strong in tension, but not compression, while cast iron is stronger in compression but less so in tension. (as a side note, due to these qualities, cast iron would have been better than wrought for shastars blades etc.) and even karas as cast iron would withstand a blow from a sword much better and protect the wrist better.

It gets even more complicated when we start adding 'white' iron which is pretty close to wrought iron in carbon content but it is a cast iron not wrought. It resists rust better. It still retains the magnetic properties though. Steel is actually an alloy of iron as well. It was natural for weapons to progress to steel blades due to steel's hardness and tensile strength. It loses its magnetic properties however.

The difference we are talking about in carbon content (deemed as 'impurities') is a mere few percent. Those who say sarbloh is the only acceptable metal for karas and kirpan blades, are basically saying that the acceptable % of carbon must be only a couple percent at most.

Some people do react though to wrought iron against the skin since it's very reactive and oxidizes easily. Hence, why some people require to wear surgical stainless steel kara... I hear white iron karas also work well for people with these issues.

But... there are no karas in existence made purely of elemental (pure) iron... It's just not possible since it's the smelting / melting process that actually causes the carbon content, and without melting the metal, you'd never be able to work it.

From my heart, don't make the same mistake as me, and read things and believe they are the one and only jatha that knows everything. The akj's vision of what Gurmat is, has no place in Sikh history. You can read about the bhasaurias and find out more on this find, and that will give you an idea.

The rest is upto you.

WJKK WJKF

I won't... I don't consider myself a member of any Jatha etc as I believe we should all be one panth... my response was to savinderpal singh ji, who claimed that SRM is not the basic RM and that DDT's GRM is 'THE' RM - I was only trying to show that all the Jathas claim the same things, that they are the true lineage etc.

Having said that I do find a lot about AKJ appealing... but I am taking Amrit at a Gurdwara that goes purely by SGPC's SRM.

However in practice I do go a bit beyond SRM because I am a vegetarian, and also believe both women and men should tie dastaar. (not exactly for the reasons that AKJ claim though) my reasoning is that when Khalsa was created, and a distinct identity was created, it included the turban. Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that as long as Khalsa maintains its true identity as laid out by him, then he will support fully. Khalsa are supposed to be in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's roop... so how are women who style their hair and don't tie a turban in that image? Simply they aren't. In a crowd, they would not stand out as Sikhs or Khalsa. I am not afraid to stand out, even though locally I am pretty much the only girl who ties a dastar and I am the only gori female too... there is only one other girl who is Amritdhari and ties a dastar but she is not around much. So I stand out even in the local sangat here, and believe me it was not easy when I started to tie dastar.

Also my point about Sants was because people keep bringing up what one in particular said about women and panj as if it were 'word' however I just wanted to show that Sants of different sects teach what was passed down to them through that sect and you can easily find two Sants who disagree on a topic. They are still human...Overall the panth has say over an individual does it not - this even happened in the days of Guru Gobind Singh Ji where he diverted to decision of the panth (I think one such case was a marriage that was opposed but I can't remember the details right now. I am first to admit I am not a Sikh history expert.)

Basically for me it comes down to, I want to be seen as an equal and taken seriously by my Sikh brothers, uncles etc. And not dismissed for simply being a woman. I feel I can contribute just as much and I have had some deeply personal and profound spiritual experiences that have proven to me I am on the right path. I just want to be taken seriously... and not seen as 'just' a woman.

I am also not into argument so I will jump off this debate at this point. I just wanted to show that women can and do act as panj pyare even in Amritsar. I know DDT will oppose... they have always had what can only be termed as 'sexist' views on women.... (there is no way to sugarcoat it) They can say 'just accept and try to understand' all they want but that is just a way to try to avoid the issue.

No matter which path everyone takes (ddt, akj, no jathas etc) ... no matter who we take Amrit from... we are all on the same path and we are all Khalsa. The journey is the same, even though we may just be on parallel paths leading to the same place. And so I wish everyone well on their journey.

WJKK WJKF

You don't need to be on a specific spiritual path to experience it. For me, it happened many times when I was very young, and at the time I was questioning Catholicism and trying to find my own spiritual path, but did not associate with any specific one. It also happened on its own without trying methods. Later on, I did learn to control it more, and eventually learned how to induce the experience on my own.

It is a natural ability of us all, since our natural state is spiritual or nonphysical... it's not physical anyway. Science, particularly quantum physics actually supports it, as when we look deeper into reality, reality as we know it actually dissolves. All matter we know to exist is actually 99.9999% empty space (empty space in all atoms). What's left when you remove the empty space from every atom on the planet, could fill a grain of rice. And all thats left are electrons and quarks (broken down from protons and neutrons) and electrons and quarks behave very strangely... they pop into and out of existence seemingly randomly... consciousness exists naturally somewhere outside the physical already. So in an OBE we are just accessing our natural and true form...and it happens to some people whether or not they have preconceived notions about a particular spiritual path.

my friend had this experience he was sleeping then suddenly he was out of his body

he freaked out , he was gasping for air in spiritual state

his body was cold

he got afraid and he saw him self standing by his side, then suddenly he was pulled back inside

he stopped what he was doing , he is hindu guy

who isnt religious at all, he followed some methods to achieve it

Panthic Rehet Maryada /Sikh Rehet Maryada states Panj Pyare can be either male or female. The big oppositions are DDT and Sant Samaj.

AKJ regularly allows women.

Quoted from an SGPC member regarding Singhni's as Panj Pyare in Amritsar:

"In amritsar singhnee have taken part in amrit sanchars. in acordance to Sikh Rehet Maryada many amrit sancahars have been carried out where the Panj have had singhnee too."

So women have in fact been Panj Pyare in Amritsar! (though maybe not at Harmandir Sahib)

if it was mixed , it would be 5 sikhs

or for women only it would be panj pyaariyaan

Is it not practice to call gursikhs in the "they" form. such as Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Bhindra Valae, not Bhindra Vala.. same for singhnee not valee but valae... thus it would still be punj pyarae. Also, If women are in the Khalsa, why arent they called Khalsee? We are all Khalsa, regardless of gender.

Quoted from another site, same topic:

"but as per Taksali argument s they say that singni s should not be taken into punj as they have to suffer from the femine natural phenomenas and this is their only argument , where German reports have thrown some light onto this topic that such problems with women does not affect the womens sacred feelings or anything of that sort so in the end i too strongly support that sikh bhenjis mataa s should be taken into punj as well"

If monthly menses are the issue, then for something that is only a few days each month and only during childbearing years, women are being precluded altogether. In reality, this natural biological phenomenon has no bearing on a woman's spirituality. It is not the same as someone mentioned earlier 'night emissions' which I am assuming is semen? So menses is being compared to and actually seen as worse than semen. I hate to say, but there is a huge difference... being that semen requires sexual thoughts which come from not containing kaam, while menses are natural biological function that has nothing at all to do with sexual thoughts. And it also does not mean a woman is somehow unclean during this time. Its not like she would be bleeding all over SGGSJ after all! I have seen men sit behind SGGSJ with a bandaid on a cut finger, they were in fact DDT and nobody said he should not be there even though he had blood on his finger which is in much closer proximity, in fact turning pages of SGGSJ!

However, as a compromise, I am sure women would agree to refrain from it during that time just to keep peace, to be able to do the rest of the time.

no its not, lol

how is that basic RM for whole panth?

there are nirmala's udasi's nihang's taksali's

also patna sahib and hazur sahib doesnt agree with sgpc nor their maryada !!

how is that basic maryada?

From AKJ website on their view on equality and their Rehet Maryada:

"The Akhand Kirtani Jatha make no differentiation between rich or poor, high caste or low caste, male or female. All people who accept the Gurus teachings are allowed to perform seva. When Dayal Das, the grandson of Baba Adam Ji, tried to serve the sangat langar, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji rejected his service and said first acccept my Hukum then you can serve the sangat. Likewise, if one wants to perform any Seva in the Gurus house then they must first accept Gurus hukums such as keeping nitnem, panj kakkars, abstaining from bujjer kurahits, etc."

So they consider Guru's Hukam to consider all Sikhs equally with regards to seva, specifically saying "male and female". They also support their Rehet Maryada as traceable all the way back as well:

How can the AKJ substantiate that their rehit is authentic? The answer comes from looking at historical documents and sources. Keski is a rehit that is clear due to bhat vehees, which are the most historic and authentic documents from the time of the first amrit sanchaar. In these vehis, the records of the original amrit sanchaar list Kesgee as a kakaar. The Akhand Kirtani Jatha is one of the only Sikh groups that still preserves Keski as a kakaar to this day.

Along with his many other qualities, Bhai Randhir Singh was an ardent seeker of truth. He was not bound by many of the Hindu-influenced practices that had infiltrated the panth before his time. He was also not bound by following a belief simply because it was a tradition and therefore assumed to be a maryada.

Bhai Randhir Singh sought to look to Gurbani and Sikh history to see what was the authentic Sikh lifestyle and to revive that lifestyle during his life. Keski rehit was revived because of Bhai Randhir Singh even though it had been on the decline since the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Bhai Randhir Singh cared only for the truth. He was not a Sant-like figure who was bound by the beliefs of a predecessor from the same jatha or group.

So it is fair to say that while the Akhand Kirtani Jatha is a relatively new Jatha, only around 100 years old, that it has been carrying on the Sikh rehit as it existed during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and after the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, although the true and authentic Sikh rehit may have become rare at various points in our history.

Also, an argument speaking against any Rehet being 'exact' lineage from the original:

It is commonplace for many Sikh organizations to claim an uninterrupted connection back to the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. A study of Sikh history discredits any such claims. Sikhs should look at their history critically to make the proper judgments on this question. Many groups within the panth claim that their institution has been passed on from the lineage of famous Gursikhs from the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. For example, some claim their lineage comes from Bhai Daya Singh Ji while another group may claim that their unbroken lineage comes from Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji. However, an analysis of these groups demonstrates that their practices are not in line with the great Gursikhs they claim an association with. For example, Bhai Daya Singh Ji mentions to eat out of Sarbloh (iron utensils) from other Amrit Dharis but the group who claims to be descended from his leadership does not follow this practice. Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji describes the method of how panj pyareh teach new Amrit Dharis how to jap naam with the tip of their tongue but the groups claiming a direct lineage to Bhai Mani Singh Ji have not incorporated this into their amrit sanchaars. Secondly, the process of giving authority to one being and passing it down to a student is not in accordance with Gurmat. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave authority to Punj Pyareh and every panthic institution in the past was governed by the Punj Pyareh so no group can claim a direct lineage or a secret understanding of puratan (old time) traditions when they have abandoned the tradition of Punj Pyareh governance.

Sis Ganj Sahib photos...

If u r wrong person sorry... I typed on my iPhone... Which is not easy....sorry on typo. No disrespect meant.

Why should we not dictate roles by gender? For the same reason we should not dictate roles based on caste. The caste system was also meant to be complimentary. I'm sure the Dalits have vastly different outlook than Brahmins, khatris etc. though?

Anyway if SRM says both can be Panj then that to me is final authority since it's the widely accepted RM

Also as I said it spreads a mentality that women are lacking spiritually. I have noticed I am not taken as seriously as men on here and other forums when I put something spiritual related because I am 'just a woman' case in point I replied to your post about OBEs something that may help you because I have a lot of experience with OBEs etc and you did not even acknowledge it.

Bhaghat Singh Ji to answer your question about marrying a woman no because that is the one thing both are needed for... Procreation. Two women could not produce a child. However spiritual things do not need sexual parts at all.

What about women who never fit into the neat little box you've illustrated in the complimentary roles? That usually means women are restricted and men aren't at all. It usually means women cook clean and raise babies and most patriarchal societies also say women are there to please men sexually (and never the other way round) that complimentary but different role issue has oppressed women for ages.

I agree we should all compliment one another but gender shouldn't dictate it. Some women were born for military (like me) and some men were born to be caretakers. And there's nothing wrong with that. I was never attracted to doing housework for a living or raising babies... In fact I feel awkward around infants. I don't feel awkward in a battle scenario.... Explain that?

And as for the SRM it is the widely accepted rehet maryada worldwide. The DDT maryada is not.

And some of the most beautiful kirtan I have ever heard was by Bibian not Singhs. I also sing myself. I feel closer to Waheguru Ji doing kirtan and simran than in ever do listening to others... If I had to only ever listen to Singhs.... My soul would hurt. To preclude women from that would be wrong. Everyone should be able to sing kirtan and also do ardaas and take hukam etc. And I don't see anything wrong with women panj either. By not allowing women to fully do duties as Khalsa is same as saying women are never really fully Khalsa at all.

It's obviously not all men since SRM states women can. But it's not SGGSJ since nothing in there instructs to place restrictions on women. And it IS always the men not the women who become defensive if anyone suggests that women deserve equal treatment. I know it's not all of them though... But ones who consider us to be unclean to the point that simply our presence would desecrate SGGSJ .... That hurts.

You say that and then place all the blame on men and make women out to be the victims of everything. All without really considering the full situation.

Without thinking of any alternative explanation, your mind goes straight to

"Men are always perpetrators, Women are always victims."

Is that a healthy view of reality? I think not.

I have done a lot of research on both OBEs and NDEs and I have a friend who is a neurologist as well so I was able to gain some insight from his perspective.

But one thing I was very interested in was the role of a chemical in the pineal gland that we produce every night when we dream called DMT (Dimethyltraptimine) It's actually considered a hallucinogen, and is a controlled substance, however actual medical doctors etc have researched it and they consider it not a hallucinogen but instead a molecule that links our consciousness to higher realms.

Why it was linked to NDEs specifically is that it has been noted that it is released in huge quantity several times in your life... at birth... and at death (near death). Also, during traumatic events...

Now, as I mentioned many think that its not a hallucinogen as in creating false images, but instead opening a doorway... (possibly dasam dwar?) The experiments conducted where they gave it to volunteers, the volunteers reported eerily similar experiences to OBEs and NDEs... only their memory of the events were much much clearer.

There was a documentary on it called DMT: The Spirit Molecule.

You can watch the full documentary on Youtube here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-9AHa9YXmM

I was not the one who said women were unclean...you said because of biological function DDT ill not allow women near SGGSJ... if that were the reason, then women beyond that function (older) and women who had hysterectomies or take medicine to stop that function, should be allowed. And rest of women every other time of the month that they are not. To say that I can't touch SGGSJ because I would desecrate it is wrong...

I also read that there is not absolute proof that DDT is in fact direct lineage from Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time. They state they are... but can they prove it all the way back?

I follow the only Guru that we are supposed to follow... Sru Guru Granth Sahib Ji... declared as such by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself. In there it states that everyone are equal. It also states that these physical bodies are nothing... they are just characters being played by the same ONE actor... also it states that those who recognize the divine light equally in everyone understand the meaning of the Guru's teachings. To separate by gender, and nit pick on biological functions and discriminate based on them to me is not seeing that divine light in women...

I never said anything about Mata Sahib Kaur Ji or anyone else... I simply said that I refuse to consider myself 'unclean' because I am a female... that was in response to you stating that DDT take 'extra precautions on cleanliness' by restricting women because of a biological function that was intended by Waheguru Ji as part of creation. And I certainly don't feel like a woman would desecrate SGGSJ for sitting behind or reading from it when ALL Sikhs are instructed to read and learn from our only Guru!

I respect and admire Mai Bhago especially... and I am sure Guru Ji did not consider her unclean!

thats funny , so you are saying that you wont follow because you dont understand it?
try to dig in more deep research more, that what we all do in free time, read old book , biographies, real life accounts stories


i will update on taksali maryada latter , do's and donts and why it is that .after consulting a taksali singh

the oldest religion is hinduism
im not saying we are effected but in older times it was not a religion but a culture,
a culture which evolved, some practices we were deemed and some were good


so you are saying that mata sahib kaur ji, the adh shakti herself never considered herself clean ?
you got to be kidding me , have an open mind and try to understand why its done ,

by saying that you just said, that all those highly respected , women in our history which we hold the uttmost regard in our heart ,
you just said they are all unclean !!


i do not wish for arguments, but i like to clear doubt's
only once you let go of your old cultural knowledge you were born into, then you can gain knew


if sikhism was global and it is, why did guru gobind singh ji created maryada because all are one

and for one , everyone should follow .

if you have doubts get them cleared, dont shut them out and label , the school started by Guru gobind singh ji as bad

you know how much disrecpect it means?
that 10 master wasnt good enough

you think he never thought of future? most mistaken , i tell you

Good luck , and kindly explore more

WJKK WJKF

Now here I have to disagree with you... natural biological functions that we may see as somehow unclean are natural and were created by Waheguru Ji. And btw women only experience that sometimes... and even then, many now take medicine that even stop that function altogether. Not that it matters because that does not have anything to do with anything. A man can cut his finger would be same thing...

Do you think the power of Gurbani is so fragile that something humans consider unclean could ever mar it??

It is for these reasons I will never follow DDT. See... I knew it was more than the issue of Panj Pyare... it's basically everything...DDT bar women from doing anything execpt feeding the men. Basically DDT is only for the men...

Religion also surpasses culture... Sikhi is a universal religion, its not only for Punjabis... though I have acquired a great deal of Punjabi culture aspects I will never consider myself as 'unclean' for simply being a woman. That is Hindu thinking... Anyway with that we will have to agree to disagree.... and that is fine. We can both progress on this spiritual path. I just prefer to be on the slightly more woman friendly path... we will end up at the same destination though.

I don't wish to get into any arguments... I know where I am spiritually and I know what I have experienced thus far... enough that I KNOW I am on the right path.

I wish you well in your journey...

WJKK WJKF

see there are just too many idiots who dont agree with guru's Maryada and try to use their own manmatt

those are anti dasam baani

they dont believe in old maryada

basicaly its like saying, we will do what the hell we want


do you think, mata sahib kaur ji never saw anyone besides their physical bodies
do you think those transended bhramgiani's and panj pyaare never saw any one beside physical form

they seen more then you could see penji

culture and the religion from the place it originated goes hand in hand ,

if i take example

we a guy has night fall, we consider it sooo bad , that its must to take full body shower and put on new clothes
and then recite 1 japji sahib and then we go inside to sit at back of guru granth sahib ji

ofcourse women dont have control over it

because the liquids discharded in periods are as bad as night fall for men

thats the reason why we take extra precaution

do you think its a joke we try to keep soo much cleanliness inside and out?

its akal purakh himself sitting there

our 10 guru's

so you think those saint's who were actually blessed by divine vision who saw nothing but waheguru in everyone , were being sexist?

you are mistaken penji

the most important thing for any one , even a saint is , hukam of guru ,

guru sahib says

Rehni rahe soy sikh mera , oh sahib main us ka chera

the sikh who is full in rehat , i am his student he is my master

rehat bina na sikh kehlave , rehat bina dar thokar khave
without rehat he is not my sikh, without rehat he will be lost

order - decipline- maryada and following guru's word is most important

Guru granth sahib ji is whole universe's guru

while maryada is only for khalsa

simple as that

also try to read their biographies or stories of their life's you will be blown with their bhagti

even bhai randhir singh ji (who started AKJ) was blessed with divine vission he saw waheguru in everyone

but thats the reason why akj in india, do not let women in panj pyaare

Myself, I don't actually care whether I have five men, five women, a mixture, or a purple elephant (joke) in Panj Pyare as long as they are Amritdhari and sincere. Simply because I CAN look past their physical shell.. and tell myself inside that its not a man giving me Amrit.. it's a SOUL... a SOUL which is the same as mine.

Since our souls are exact same, and in reality everything is really ONE and same divine light is in ALL... then ALL is really Waheguru Ji anyway. So in the end does it matter what sexual part one has when it comes to matters of spirituality which have nothing to do with sex??

Yes Mai Bhago is my hero As I mentioned earlier... I have been in the military for 18 years... also have been in martial arts (Tae Kwon Do) and would love to learn Gatka too!

I think many men try to look too much into it. The reasons I see quoted - if you step back at all... sounds more like Indian culture creeping in than anything to do with spirituality.

There are a lot of Sikhs who do not agree with Damdami Taksal at all... they do not only restrict women from Panj Pyare... they also stop women from kirtan, participating in akhand paaths, acting as Granthi etc. too. I was told by someone who supports DDT that it's blaspheme for a woman to even sit behind and read from SGGSJ because we would 'desicrate it'... that is the thinking of Damdami Taksal. So they pretty much don't allow women to do anything except langar seva. I don't support their views at all because it goes against SGGSJ. Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught equality of genders...

we neither agree with man made jatha's as AKJ nor sgpc penji if you are empasising on them

AKJ themselfs dont agree

AKJ in UK doesnt belive in dasam baani and raag mala

Akj in india doesnt belive in raag mala and no women is allowed as panj pyaare

akj in states, allow women in panj pyaare

they dont know what maryada was and how it was handed out

and sant jarnail singh ji is from damdami taksal
not only sant jarnail singh ji

the orignal and only school started by Guru gobind singh ji

and their maryada was handed out by 10th master himself

there have been numerous bhramgiani;s Women and men who never questioned maryada , and now days people think they know more then them and our gurus

Our Panth has some incredibly serious issues going on.

It's usually men who downplay the seriousness of women's plight... it's easy to do when it doesn't affect them. I am aware of most of the issues, and hope to help wherever and whenever I can.

Yes AKJ do and have had women as Panj Pyare... I know an AKJ Singhni who did so in California and its not rare either. In fact, I think I even have a photo of it kicking around somewhere.... AKJ practice full equality... which is why women are required to wear keskis as well. They say there should be no difference in reheat maryada between men and women and so women are also required to wear keski (and they also see keski not kesh as the kakkar). I happen to agree with their reasoning actually.... Which is why I am tempted to take Amrit with AKJ but I don't know if I will be able to as I am doing it in Srinagar, Kashmir.

For that matter I think my local Gurdwara also would allow women - it's just that here we are hard pressed to even have six Amritdhari at any given time to do it. (I will be one of only a small number of Amritdhari in my local Gurdwara as most are not) We have only held it once here - this past Spring because we had Samagam here and had people from away who were able to put it together. Else, we have to travel at least to Toronto or Vancouver to do it.

I also believe the SRM actually states that Panj Pyare can be any baptized Sikh. In fact it directly states that women CAN. Quoted directly from SGPC website:

"Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation

Article XXIV

a. Ambrosial baptism should be held at an exclusive place away from common human traffic.

b. At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair."

link:

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

^^^Should not this be the final authority on it? Different Sants come and go and may agree or even disagree with each other on different aspects of Sikhi ....But isn't the SRM what we are actually AGREEING to abide by when we take Amrit? In that case, by not allowing women, isn't that actually going AGAINST the SRM?

When I just looked up AKJ, they state they do in fact support and fully follow the SGPC SRM, with only a few tiny differences involving the keski. (which does not go against SRM only adds to it) SO that is why they allow women to act as Panj Pyare.

(you keep referring to Bindrinwale - so he was DDT and they use a different rehet maryada I believe?) But Akal Takht and SGPC state the official Rehet Maryada is the SRM which I quoted above. So maryada does in fact state that women CAN.

Other Gurdwaras are fine with photos like Bangla Sahib etc I think with Darbar Sahib it has to do with flashes going off when there are constantly TV cameras on in there for PTC Punjabi channel etc. I could be wrong though.

WJKK WJKF

Have you ever thought about making the forum compatible with Tapatalk? It only takes a tiny bit of code and then allows the forum to be accessible within Tapatalk which is an app on both iOS and Android. It makes browsing on a smartphone much easier than thru the browser as it sizes appropriately. Plus a lot of people put all their accessed forums in the app and then all new posts from all of them can be seen at once etc. it doesn't affect the forum at all on your end and only requires a tiny bit of code to allow the app to pull the content.

It also has a directory and your site would come up in searches through the app... Drawing in more Sikhs who might not know about this site.