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the article states

Astral travel allows us to have a direct experience of God. It gives one an absolute knowingness that we are not our physical body or even our mind, and travel to the highest planes of consciousness.

From everything i've read in Gurbani and other writing of Saints, and my current experience of Simran so far, this line doesn't quite sit right with me...

Astral travel is just an experience of another of gods creations...it is still a product of the mind...a creation, so it cannot give us the experience of going beyond the mind...and therefore not give you a direct experience of God. you have to remain un-attached to this plane and move beyond it into the mental realm and beyond again etc

Yes, you very quickly realise that physical death is not the end of everything for you...that you continue beyond the death of the physical body, but you now have another body...and that body has a life span also, and from what i gather from experience so far...we can still feel sttachment, ego, desire, anger, greed, lust within that body

Also, from my very limited experience thus far, it seems there are many layers of the Astral Plane...lower layers that are experienced/atracted if your mindset is very negative and dark....and higher planes if you are doing your Simran and making effort to cleanse your mind and 5 thieves...naam Simran and the pull of the inner shabad will act like your express elevator taking you to the penthouse suite.

i have no doubt guru ji could astral travel and used it to show others the vastness of creation...and i have no doubt that Guru Ji can take people beyond creation and beyind the mind, into the formless

For the past 5 days I have been able to wake at amritvela but I couldn't wake up today. I'm gonna start again from tomorrow morning.

keep it up ji...make it a habit

if you miss, try do some during the day...

And more power to anyone else who wants abstain from astral realm.

It's not really abstaining away from the Astral Realm or anything else...

it's just submitting to Waheguru Will...and allowing Him to show us what He pleases...rather than us inducing an experience when we have no idea what we are getting ourselves into or whether we are in the right frame of mind for it....it's seeking his guidance and support for the jouney ahead...and that journey mat have you astral travelling...

...but now you have the 'creator' as your travel guide

I get what you are saying and I respect your decision. If you want to take the yogic approach of self control more power to you. And more power to anyone else who wants abstain from astral realm.

But when you go from personal to universal, when you say this is what others should do as well. Then you have to give some good reasons why you think they should do it.

Whilst I like and respect what you do, I don't see those reasons working for me or for someone who is interested in astral travel.

"if someone addicted to porn and sex in this world...starts Astral travelling, he takes with him that same mindset to the Astral Realm..so then what will that person be likely to indulge in there?"

They can literally do this anywhere, internet, forums, games, real-life prostituion, mistresses, etc. Astral realm is not special dude.

The desires are the same, the gratification is on the same level. Nothing has changed. Whether its real life or astral realm or virtual reality, it's the same thing.

You are trying to make a special case for astral realm, when it's not special at all. Virtual reality does exist and these things can happen in virtual worlds. People pay for sex in real life, they have a desire and they manifest it via cash. Astral realm is that same for these people. Only the medium has changed.

Meanwhile the rest of us, don't give a shit tbh. We all have sexual desire, anger, greed and so on and so forth. But we don't bother to act them out most of the time. I think you are looking into astral realm way too much.

You seem to have some kind of connection with astral realm from past experiences. You seem to have invested a lot of energy in this area and that's why you consider astral realm to be more special than virtual or physical reality.

Did you have any experiences in astral realm that you want to share? Any experience which signal caution? Any experiences that were lovely?

PS dude you said you did website design in another thread, I wanted to talk to you about that. PM me your stuff, let's get in touch.

my point is only that Gurbani is quite simple...do naam simran and work on the 5 thieves that brew up within us during our life interactions here on earth...all else is of no use whatsoever 'if' our biggest aim is to experience waheguru.

people move homes, towns, cities, countries...and no matter where they go, they take with them the same mindset. which is why i used Astral Sex as an example of people going from one place to another but still controlled by the 5 thieves nothing more

Therefore i can only inspire someone to do Naam Simran in order to experience the 'complete truth' and to help conqueur thier 5 thieves...and not push them into something else when i have no idea of what there mindset is..

Naam Simran will test you (as it has done with me in my short journey so far)...i am very thankful to waheguru that no matter what comes my way, Waheguru is always fixed in mind and taking me where i 'need' to go (surrendiring to HIs Will), rather than my curiosity taking me on fruitless expeditions .

This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Soohee on Pannaa 745

Soohee, Fifth Mehla: dharasan ko lochai sabh koee || Everyone longs for the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan.

poorai bhaag paraapath hoee || rehaao || By perfect destiny, it is obtained. ||Pause||

siaam su(n)dhar thaj needh kio aaee || Forsaking the Beautiful Lord, how can they go to sleep?

mehaa mohanee dhoothaa laaee ||1|| The great enticer Maya has led them down the path of sin. ||1||

praem bishhohaa karath kasaaee || This butcher has separated them from the Beloved Lord. i

niradhai ja(n)th this dhaeiaa n paaee ||2|| This merciless one shows no mercy at all to the poor beings. ||2||

anik janam beetheean bharamaaee || Countless lifetimes have passed away, wandering aimlessly.

ghar vaas n dhaevai dhuthar maaee ||3|| The terrible, treacherous Maya does not even allow them to dwell in their own home. ||3|| i

dhin rain apanaa keeaa paaee || Day and night, they receive the rewards of their own actions.

kis dhos n dheejai kirath bhavaaee ||4|| Don't blame anyone else; your own actions lead you astray. ||4||

sun saajan sa(n)th jan bhaaee || Listen, O Friend, O Saint, O humble Sibling of Destiny:

charan saran naanak gath paaee ||5||34||40|| in the Sanctuary of the Lord's Feet, Nanak has found Salvation. ||5||34||40||

i think this Shabad says it all Ji.

True you said jee. Hmm, but I am super confused. I am facing some troubles, so I dont know it seems i want to try and experience someting

I have started naam simran lately

From my very little experience so far...stick with Naam Simran...everything you need to see/experience of Waheguru's creation will be revealed at perfectly the right time for you...when your mind is ready for it....

it will all happen naturally under the guidance of your inner shabad (which is your internal satelite navigation system), it will make sure you bypass all the traffic, road works, dangerous paths, cliffs, and get you to your destination

it will clean your mind and inner body so that you are ready to take the journey ahead with complete concentration and focus and reduce the likelyhood of you wandering around aimlessly and getting distracted over and over like we already do in this world

Just my view based on my little experience on this journey so far....you are obviously free to continue in any way you wish

Astral travel can be practiced during the day as well. Many people do it, while taking afternoon naps.

Both God and astral travel can be sought after. We should encourage those people who want to astral travel to pursue such activities. We are here on this earth to express ourselves afterall.

You missed the point. You argument was "We should not astral travel as long as we desire sex". I said it's possible to have sex in a virtual world on the internet, in forums. Would it make sense for anyone to argue "We should not browse the internet as long as we desire sex"? Yet you argued just that while you were on the internet, chatting in a forum.

Personally i wouldnt encourage anyone to pursue Astral travelling...i would suggest doing Naam Simran to subdue the 5 thieves in the subconsious mind and as a means to experience Waheguru (which is what Gurbani states over and over and over....and over again )

my argument about desires is of not having control over them...if someone addicted to porn and sex in this world...starts Astral travelling, he takes with him that same mindset to the Astral Realm...so then what will that person be likely to indulge in there? and once they have some 5 thieves inspired action in the astral realm could they also be suscebtible to getting attached to what they see/experience in the Astral real...can greed hit them there? Anger?

Therefore i will never encourage anyone to pursue Astral Travelling as focal point...

Naam Simran - yes! and maybe a long the way you will get to Astral Travel (but having your primary compass firmly poiting to Waheguru)..

or maybe once the 5 thieves are subdued and Waheguru is Experienced...you can enjoy Waheguru's whole creation without getting lost in it and attached to it..

under the guidance of Naam Simran you are putting your whole faith in Waheguru's will and waheguru's Will only...trusting in Him, and surrendring to his Will...you are saying "here i am...please come and take my hand"

It has been really hard for me to wake up at amritvela these days. I put my phone which I use as an alarm clock across the room so I would have to walk and turn it off but I wake up around 8:00 am confused how my phone came all the way back on my nightstand lol. I think I sleepwalk and turn it off. What should I do?

How are you getting on ji?

Bhagat ji,

its all great what you are saying...

but as Gurbani says...we don;t know how long we have in this life. Gurbani says we have spent countless lives already chasing desires...being reborn due to unfulfilled desires.

so tonight when i go to sleep, i know my intention is solely on waking up for Amrit Vela...and doing my Naam Simran (keeping things simple)...i may not live another day...i don;t want my last intentions to be on my desire to experience Astral Travelling...

But thats just me

All other desires you mention...eating good food, playing an instrument...most people do these during the day.

Astral travellers make use of the night, of deep Rem sleep...a tired body and alert soul to induce astral travelling...and this can take up that valuable Amrit Vela of Naam Simran for you never know how many more Amrit Vela's you have at your disposal...before the lights turn out (death)

oh and Astral Sex..is an 'intention' to have Sex...in the Astral Realm...taking your desire for sex from the physical realm to the Astral Real to 'Actually do it'. What we've done here is just mention the topic sex...not actually having any 'intention' of carrying out the act or any form of it such as cyber sex

..

Just my current thoughts on the matter...nothing more.

That's true of any activity. If someone likes to play Tabla, then the practice is going to consume time and energy they could be using to try to experience Waheguru. If someone wants to master in physics they are taking time and energy away from trying to experience Waheguru.

Astral travel is a skill like playing Tabla or mastering physics. And of course, it requires time that you will be taking away from other activities. But if it's something you want to do then you should do it. And of course, if you want to give things up to experience Waheguru that's fine too.

Then one must ask what their priorities are...if they are more interested and focussed in wanting OBE's and Astral travelling than thirst for the ultimate truth then they are probably not ready for the truth...which will come in time...

Astral Travelling is just another desire....the internet is full of people wanting to astral travel to manifest their desires because they cannot manifest them quickly enough here in this world...they want to experience Astral Sex because they are told they can manifest their deepest desires there in an instant...whatever is your mindset you will experience there...

ones state of mind will determine what they see/experience via OBE's and Astral travelling, so in my opinion it is a must to control ones 5 thieves before delving into anything like this...lots of naam simran and daily effort through seva and sharing and truthful community interaction

just my opinion...nothing more..

i guess so

for the first 2 years of doing amrit vela i would never use an alarm clock...i would do an ardaas before sleep to ask guru ji to wake me up at the required time...and whenever i naturally woke up i would do my Amrit vela...

my sleeping pattern changed recently and now i set my phone alarm on so that i'm always up at the same time everyday...

fight the tiredness..eventually you will realise after a few weeks of feeling extra tired that your body doesnt need that much sleep anyway.

also when your simran starts to get deeper, it will rejuvinate you also...

just my experiences so far....god bless

I dont know why but I always have been interested to astral travel since I've heard about it. I keep on having sleep paralysis now and then, but nothing beyond that.

I have heard that sleep paralysis an lead to an OBE.

Are there any steps to be followed for an obe? I have read some online but they seem to be confusing. Also, as we are discussing astral travel here, I was wondering if there is any correlation between the spiritual path( taught by Gurmat) and astral travel?

imagine if you can home your desire/focus/energy/determination for astral travelling to wanting to experience the ultimate truth - Waheguru...

We don't know how many breaths we have left in this precious human birth....what to spend this energy on? just astral travelling or the ultimate?

my advice/opinion....focus on Waheguru and a long the way you may 'naturally' have the opportunity to astral travel but you won't get lost in it all - your focus will still be on Waheguru...so you may get to enjoy all the wonders of his creation whilst still having the focus of your destination

People are wandering lost in this world already...do we really want our main focus to just get mesmerized and lost in another world

jusy my thoughts and nothing more ji...

God Bless

I've never used tracks like these. What do they do do and how do you use them?

I haven;t used such tracks before myself, but i've sometimes listened to some 'Snatam Kaur' before Silent Simran and during those morning hours it really helps you relax and focus the mind before you start silent mental Simran

On days where I have experienced Amritvela with Guru Jis grace... I am more aware of the thoughts, things pop-up in mind which I never remembered, experiences have been mixed, from being sleepy to feeling very intimate .Indeed it is a time which is very intimate, especially before 5 am,

I also feel the cooler morning hours are the best to bring awareness to ajna chakra area, because the energy generated makes you more alert throughout the day.

Overall a cooler and a feeling of determination whenever I managed to woke up early. But then again there have been phases where I missed it for days on end .

And I have noticed if you recite Bani before going to sleep or meditate min 1 hr earlier, it gets a little easier to wake up.

thats great ji..

try to plant a definate thought of 'intention' to wake up for Amrit Vela just before sleep...i find if i have any doubts about waking up before i go to sleep, i will end up failing to get up

for example some night i lie in bed and my mind is already making excuses..."oh its a little late now..i need to be fresh for work...maybe its better to miss Amrit Vela...no, i have to wake up.....but i'll feel tired...we'll see" this indicision sticks on you...and when the alarm clock goes off, the excuses are the first things to go through your head, and before you know it...you back to sleep.

have that intention...psyic yourself up you will never regret it once you start doing it regularly..will change your life forever!

God Bless Ji

So how's that working out so far Ragmaala? Are you able to sense something in that area without looking at it physically?

you can pratice this during the day...for example, i am currently typing this message, but i can move my attention to different parts of my body, fingers, toes, top of head but keep my eyes at the screen

becomes easier the more you practice...

i learn Tai chi...and that involves a lot of placing the mind in different parts of the body (energy points) while doing the taich form...becomes easier the more you do it..

i disconnected from the physical eyes. i think its the most natural way to do so. just keeping attention awareness there without actually moving the eyes.

A question popped up in my mind. Does anyone feel that sometimes your attention is most focused on the left side of the whole body body,legs to head, when sitting down, something pulling in you in a diagonal left direction instead of staying upright. thanks.

Don;t think i've ever had such experience...i tend to lose reference to my body during deep meditation

Ragmaala ji

uoi started this very interesting thread, but didnt tell us about your experiences, challenges etc?

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/books/English_Books/Shabad.Guru.Surat.Dun.Chela.by.Giani.Sant.Singh.Maskeen.(GurmatVeechar.com).pdf

i read this a few months ago...very good read

Beautiful is the title of this thread by brother Truthseeker.

I was just listening a beautiful shabad kirtan, from the Bani of Fifth Patshahee in Raag Sree Raag, and though the whole shabd is beautiful and blissful, but there comes a line, in which Guru Jee reveals us our true essence as souls, as sikhs, and His true nature as True Guru.

Here it goes:

baah pakarh gur kaadhi-aa so-ee utri-aa paar.

Grasping him by the arm, the Guru lifts them up and out, and carries them across to the other side.

Now let us just pay attention and see the beauty and depth in it.

He is telling us, that, we by ourselves can do nothing, however much jap, tap, poojas, paaths we may do, even any outer rituals, but even then, we by ourselves can never ever get out from this mayavee creation. Because , all these types of devotion we do as manmukhs, we think we are doing it.

The thing is, in real devotion we have to dissolve our ego, our ahankaar, our sudh, our budh, only He has to exist, we simply are not.

That is why, our Guru Sahibans have stressed so much on Naam Simran. It is the only method or jugtee, by which we break the barriers of our minds and place ourselves at His Lotus Feet.

As long as we think I do this or that, He does not come into the scene. But when we take refuge at His Lotus Feet, through the devotion of Naam, then He sees our humility and likes us, He says, now you have become light by removing the weight of the haume of me, mine, mind ....

Then in the next moment, as Guru Jee tells us in the above line, the consequence of giving ourselves totally to Him, is that, He extends His powerful arm and pulls us out from this mayavee bhavsagar.

That is when Guru Jee says:Baah pakarh Gur kaadeeya

The thing and beauty of sikhee is, it makes us consciouss by realizing in a most simple way, our true spiritual nature as souls, as disciples, as sikhs, as chelas, as dhun, and the also the True status of Shabad Guru.

So, as long as we think we are so and so, from here or there, and have to do so and so.... we are bound to remain in this creation, with hardly any spiritual progress.

But the moment we realize we are the soul, trapped by the mind and maya, we shall do the bhakti as per Gurmat, then we shall shed all our outer coverings on our souls, and go in the search of the Shabad Guru who is within us, and waiting eagerly for us, so that we may reach Him there within, and thus He pulls us out from the realms of karma, of pain and misery, from the realms of maya and Dharam Rai, to the realm of Dayal Purukh.

We are not the body, as we shall have to leave it here, it is nothing but a handful of dust ....our real self is the soul, the sikh, the chela, which is in nature a drop of Satnam, and in that Satnam Samundar it has to merge and become the Ocean itself, through bhakti, not otherwise.

So if we never do Naam Simran, how will our soul reach at His Lotus Feet?

How will our surtee, be pulled out by Guru Jee within?

Some may think, I am crazy, I do stress a lot on Naam Simran, and not on other things.

But that is, because we have a very short time, and as per Gurmat, if we do not do the real thing as seen in the Bani of Fifth Patshahee, how will we save our souls?

The path of Gurmat or sikhee, is for the freedom of our souls and defeating our minds, and not for our bodies which are insentient and perishable, however we may decorate and make up them, but in the end it is nothing but clay, while our souls are His essence.

It is our souls which shall merge in Him, and become Nirankar as He is.

And when this is achieved, who is there a sikh, a khalsa, a muslim, a christian or a hindu?

Or who is an american, indian, british or chinese over there?

All these outer aspects simply do not exist there, for which we so foolishly fight and kill, and burn with the fire of haume....

He is not realized by us, by belonging to any culture, class, caste, creed or country, but by putting into action a particular discipline : Gurmat, the bhakti of Naam Simran, taught by our Guru Sahibans and all True Gurmukhs, or Sant Janas.

The relation as per the topic of this beautiful thread: Shabad Guru, surat dhun chela... is described in a very clearly and simple langauge, by Dhan Dhan Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj in His lines above.

Waheguru.

i agree ji,

recently i was watching some video's from some well known apparently awakened souls namely ' eckhart tolle' and someone else who's name i can't remember...

in all their guidance, in their tips and techniques they offer to their audience...the penny dropped in their discourse when they both said they had a moment of complete surrender due to a life situation or experience...a moment where they fell physically/mentally and spiriutally at the feet of God - all Ego of Being able to resolve their life situations themselves with their own perceived efforts had momentarily evapourated and in that moment they had the greatest gift of grace....

or in fact, the grace was already there, but that the Ego had dissolved enought to allow grace to be felt/received

In all the videos i have seen of them, i can only recall them saying this 'once' ... when it is of upmost importance...

Surrender to Waheguru Ji's will is key...

The geatest Simran i have experienced is when i literally (mentally) fell at Guru Ji's Feet during Amrit Vela, where i had no solutions for lifes events, no more energy, and surrendering my ego was all that was left. In that moment of Surrendering where it almost feels like defeat (ego feeling like it has been defeated), all possibility instead manifested.

God Bless Ji

i know of one person in India who started up a local india charity that supports educational fees for children that live in nearby slums to him. you can see his facebook page here:

https://www.facebook.com/invincible.helpinghands

Are there any sangat on this forum that know of any slums/areas where childrens, family can do with extra support for education? Maybe we can do something similar?

I am a web designer in the U.K and can create a donation website for sponsoring children.

Just throwing out some ideas and suggestions

Was listening to Giani/Bhai Paramjit Singh Ji Khalsa (Anandpur Sahib Wale) live on SikhChannel last night and must say I was really impressed with this guy's katha. His topic was naam simran. I will record it and put it up because it was a very inspiring Katha. This guy is very outspoken and was not afraid to tell the sangat off on numerous occasions.

There was one point he made which really caught my attention when he was asking the sangat to jap. Someone sitting in the sangat decided to accelerate their jaap and became engrossed in their own mast like you see on some occasions. Bhai Sahib stopped the jaap and made a very important point. He said not to jap so fast like that because your surti will not be able to latch on and keep up. He said once someone else was doing the jaap in this fashion so he asked him what stage he had achieved in the time he had been doing sirman. The person replied he hadn't achieved anything to date. Bhai Sahib gave the analogy of peddling on bike very fast but the chain is broken so in fact your not going anywhere. He said its the same with simran when done in that fashion. Your japping so fast that your speech has gone off in its own direction and your mind/surti was not focused and was left behind to do it's own thing. That is why nothing is being achieved.

Key point : Keep the simran slow so that the surti can hear each recitation clearly and stay latched on for the ride.

Makes good sense...

What happens to me is I feel myself leaving but then I get scared and go back in. The main reason I've been aiming at astral travel is because where I live there isn't much sangat (I'm too young to drive anywhere where there is sangat) and I want to go to Darbar Sahib (Amritsar) as much as possible, I feel like that would be amazing. The power of the sangat at darbar sahib is amazing.

where are you from?

I have stopped straining my eyes, just try to keep a mild focus between the eyes. sometimes there is a tickling feeling on forehead where the hairline starts, not sure if that means anything.

also if i do it before sleep , keeping a mild focus, i cant go to sleep, somehow sleep is gone leaving a restless feeling.

do you mean that after your mediation you just cannot fall to sleep? or during the meditation when you are focussing at that point?

I've never had a problem falling to sleep if i do this lying in bed...i'll just eventually drift off...but i know that some people can't do this because their energy is very active...

i do taichi, and my tai chi teacher always tells me to do 'grounding' visualisation if i do any tai chi in the evening before i go to sleep...he said my energy will be very active and i won;t sleep well...

some visualisation is standing with both feet firmly to the ground...then imagining roots coming out of your feet going into the ground... if you google grounding, maybe you'll find other techniques..

when i started to take Simran seriously about 2.5 years ago, i first began doing simran at a Gurdwara's evening 1 Hour Simran session everyday after work...this was fantastic and where i first started going spiritually within...

i would also do simran lying in bed before sleep...

This was all fantastic and i still do this from time to time...

BUT, when i started Amrit Vela that is when things really 'began' on a deeper level...

i do not not why...it could be because there are less distractions from the external...darkness, no sounds, and dyan could be set on Gurmanter a ot easier...the atmosphere also feels different...the world is asleep. I could open up during my ardaas a lot easier...it almost feels like a one-to-one with Waheguru..

Mentally i could shut off from the world, knowing i would not get disturbed...the phone wouldn't ring, the wife wouldnt need a hand with anything..no responsibilities at that time...i could literally let go mentally and call out to God...surrender

I have been contemplating this eye straining and looking in particular directions.

Guru ji instructs us with:

ਨਉ ਦਰ ਠਾਕੇ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਹਾਏ ॥

na-o dar thaakay Dhaavat rahaa-ay.

Those who close off the nine gates, and restrain the wandering mind,

ਦਸਵੈ ਿਨਜ ਘਿਰ ਵਾਸਾ ਪਾਏ ॥

dasvai nij ghar vaasaa paa-ay.

come to dwell in the Home of the Tenth Gate.

Are we wrong in thinking these physical eyes are the ones that will see all or will it be the inner eyes of the mind that used when we dream for example.

If we just close the eyelids and still move the eyes in a particular direction aren't we infact keeping our dhyaan in the physcial eyes and trying to force them to see through the darkness or skull?

Isn't the whole objective to still the mind and then invert it inwards rather than outwards. I appreciate this is easier said then done but just some food for thought.

I can appreciate if one does this to stop the eyes moving about, but it shouldn't be straining.

From my own experience, i think its the moving of the attention/consciousness to just between the eyebrows that helps...but during the early stages your eyes just naturally focus there also helping to lock your focus there...and then over time you will probably notice the eyes are very relaxed and you're not straining them to that point...

inner vision with Guru Ji's grace can be awoken, and various things can then be seen that are not seen with the physical eyes...but with the spiritual eyes of the subtle body....

A common sight is that of light, third eye chakra tends to have the purple/indigo light and if you take your Simran seriously it will start to become pure white...

This is just from my own experience so far and may not be how it is for everyone...just keep an open mind...so that you're receptive