Kuttabanda2

On 9/10/2017 at 10:31 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

Jodh Singh wrote a book in 1964 "Pracheen Biran bare" in which he beleived the Kartarpuri bir to be authentic.

Ohhh, I confused him with someone else.

On 9/8/2017 at 10:10 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

Where the inconsistencies before Mundavni and/or after?

 

 

Please noooooooooo. I couldnt bring myslef to read that book again. It was years ago but basically al the things he wrote were refuted (I think) by Sant Kartar Singh Bhindranwale. I am a little ashamed to admit that when I read the book, I was convinced by the reasoning given (as someone who had no knowledge on the subject) and did at one poor moment in my life doubt Raagmala.

The inconsistencies were throughout the sarroop. Talwara and Vedanti checked all these Sarroops to do Shudhai of the mistakes made by the SGPC in their printed Sarroops. 

And there's no harm in reading a book for research.  

On 9/8/2017 at 10:10 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

Did this Madhavnal Kaam Kandla exist in a prior different form to Guru Sahibs Darbar?

 

I dont think those saroops are identifiable anymore, but the one saroop we can't doubt is the Kartarpuri bir, which does include Raagmala.

 

Madhavnal Kaam Kandla existed prior to Dasmesh Pita Ji. 

We can't doubt the Original Kartarpuri Bir, of course. Only problem is....we don't have it. 

Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhinderawale, Bhai Jodh Singh, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Gyani Ishar Singh & Gyani Narain Singh (as a team), Bhai Mana Singh, Swami Harnam Das Udasin, and Bhai Randhir Singh Research Scholar each did Darshan of the Bir that the Kartar Sodhis have/had. They didn't believe that the Birs (note plural) that are with the Kartarpuri Sodhis aren't authentic. Gyani Gurbachan Singh Ji himself said there were at least 1,000 differences between the Kartarpuri Bir and the DamDami Bir. 

Another interesting thing is that there was only one of 4 different types of Birs being shown to each Scholar by the Kartarpuri Sodhis, thus each of the scholar's observations were vastly different. This raises some suspicion on the Kartarpuri Sodhis who claim to have his Bir. It seems they were circulating which Bir to show to the Scholars each time they come. 

Not to say the Kartarpuri Bir written by Panchmesh Pita Ji didn't exist, it did. But it's not what these Kartarpuri Sodhis are showing. 

It's very likely that the original Kartarpuri Bir became Shaheed in the fire during the attack at Gurdwara Thamb Sahib, as it was claimed by historians. Or that the kartarpuri Sodhis are doing something mischievous. 

This isn't to say we don't have copies from that time. There are still Pothis out there that are copies of the Kartarpuri Bir written by and/or signed by the Guru Sahibans themselves, from 6th to 10th Patshah. We still have those, luckily.

On 9/8/2017 at 10:10 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

From what i have read, the raagmala are different. Easily seen as different. I had a copy of the raagmala was supposed to be from this book and it was very different to SGGS. Have you seen the actual text in Ashoks book?

Dr Anurag Singh who says he has been doing research of Raagmala for 11 years now, says that there was no such writer during Akbars times. This Kaam Kandal was written in 10th Guru's Darbar by Alam who copied the the raagmala (could have been the one I read) into his writing of the story.

According to non-Sikh Historians and the book itself, apparently he did exist and he wrote this.

There were 2 Kavi Alams in history.

From what I see, the spelling is different, not numbered, etc. No major difference between the two texts.

which book is this from?

17 hours ago, paapiman said:

Please have a look below. Due to the first line, it can never be asserted that Mahakavi jee had a firm belief that Sri Raagmala Sahib jee is not Gurbani.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

That contradicts the statement he made in his previous paurdi. None the less, he had a doubt and expressed his uncertainty either way. 

17 hours ago, paapiman said:

So what is his theory? Who replaced those saroops? What was the motive behind it? Where are the original saroops? Did he provide details in his book?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

His book detailed only the Raagmala controversy, not the history of the Birs. 

Can't say what happened to the originals of Baba Deep Singh Ji or Bhai Mani Singh Ji. 

This isn't to say we don't have any Sarroop signed, checked, and/or stamped by our Guru Sahibans and Puraatan Hazoori Sikhs, we still have those, but the ones you guys mentioned were checked by Vedanti and Talwara (who's sole aim was to check, bring and into light some of the errors in SGPC's printed sarroops) and were found inconsistent with one another.

On 8/12/2017 at 11:15 AM, amardeep said:

After partition of India i think these cross overs dissapeared in India. They converted fully and stayed in India or went to Pakistan and became muslims...

That is true. My Massi's in-laws entire pind+extended Clans was Muslim before. Before Partition, they had a bit of veneration for the Gurus. But during Partition, They had to choose between the two. They had fully converted to Sikhism, albeit, they kept some Bist Doabi muslim traditions and traits going. Same with Muslims or new Sikhs, in the Shahkot-Massiah area of Jalandhar. 

On 6/9/2017 at 6:21 AM, londondajatt said:

can he become a Nanak-Shahi sikh, a murid or something similar?

Is Sehajdhari what you're talking about?

On 8/25/2017 at 3:51 AM, Guest Muslim and proud said:

@LiquidSky - that video you posted is false and full of half truths. 

urine was a common medical cure across cultures for centuries, including Christianity when many Christians translated the following verse to me urine  "  "Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well",  proverbs 5:15. It was in common use in pre-islamic Arabia - not something that was introduced in Islam, infact in Islamic law, urine is considered Najas (impure) and not to be used to taken. The  narrator does give a commentary to the Haddith - those bedawins that came to him were accustomed to drinking milk and urine. So he allowed them to do so as it was their custom, secondly they were executed like that because killed an innocent boy in the same manner who was looking after the camels.   

It's very easy to make videos like that. I can make a video about how brutal was silly the formation of the Kalsa was - killing 5 innocent people to get 5 symbols. or how Guru Gobin tortured and killed the masnads - boiled alive and buried alive etc.

- in regards the to this post and Sikh girls being forced to convert to Islam. This may have happened, I doubt to the large scale some sikhs like to think it would but it also happened to Muslim girls that were left behind in India. Are Sikh going to allow those girls to become Muslim again?

The partition had really bad impact on Muslims and Sikhs. Muslims were slaughtered on trains, women raped and plundered by Sikhs also. Where is their justice? 

And as for Sikhs in Pakistan, they live their peacefully. Pakistan not only protecting Sikh sights, but also allowing many perks, including being the first country to recognise the Anand Karaj marriage, well before India or any western country. Dubia has built one of the biggest Gudwarahs there. where is all this oppression in Muslim lands to Sikhs ? There are issues in a lot of Muslim countries but they are not aimed at Sikhs specifically. Afghanistan isn't really a fair example as it's been bombed to the stone age by Britain, Russia and the US. 

Sikhs tend to have more of a challenge in the West with keeping with their faith than anywhere else. No oppression from the state here. Apart from problems with different schisms in Sikhism, and young Sikhs leaving Sikhism for various reasons. My neighbour was a sikh women who became Muslim, no one forced her, she became Muslim because she read about Islam and realised most of what she knew about Islam were lies told by her community. It easier to play the victim card then to come to terms with the shortcomings of your own community. 

 

What Justice could you possibly reap from Partition? 

Your reasoning is that Sikh girls being kidnapped and forcibly converted today  in Pakistan, is ok, because Muslim women left behind in East Panjab during partition were also forcibly converted to Sikhism? (By the way, sikh women were kidnapped and forcibly converted during partition as well.)

 we live in the 21st Century now....Well, at least we non-muslims do. 

Sikhs in Pakistan live peacefully there because when they're girls are kidnapped, and their temples demolished or taken over, they stay quiet, well aware of the fact that they're a vulnerable minority in an Islamic nation. 

As for your ridiculous assertions. Guru Gobind Singh didn't kill 5 people to form the Khalsa. The Masands were boiled alive and burned for their crimes against the people, which is well deserved. Go ahead, make a video. It'll just demostrate your ignorance. One would ought to know about a faith before criticizing it.

On the topic of Criticization, You take the above video, a video that highlights a problem, and brings to light a case of human rights violation as a criticism of Islam? How do you connect those two dots? Is it an insecurity? 

Lol, the shortcomings of our community? One only needs to read the Quran and the ahadith themselves to see the "lies".  Our community is prospering one way or another. Sikhs in the west have it easier. We tend to be more educated and financially secure, we ASSIMILATE quite easily due to our Liberal philosophy and outlook as a community. We gain more converts than we lose. Islam is losing quite a lot to Atheism and rationality itself. Most Sikhs that leave their faith are ones who have become Atheists/agnostics.  Here in the west, we tend to grow due to our ideals and compatible principles. 

As a community, we don't look towards converting more individuals to boast. 

The only person playing the victim card is you, as usual. That's kind of established now. 

The condoning of Wife-beating, sex slaves, lashing adulterers, and the laws regarding rape. None of those are compatible with the moral code shared by the rest of the world.

Thankfully, the more your people move into the west, the more your faith itself will begin to deteriorate, as the West secularizes all people who assimilate within it. 

On 8/9/2017 at 0:59 PM, chatanga1 said:

 

I read this book. It was shocking to read, how shallow the intellect was in it.

Could you provide examples of objectionable assertions within that book? Or what you found that showed this shallow intellect?

On 8/8/2017 at 6:07 PM, paapiman said:

Are you talking about Gyani Gurdit who wrote the book Mundavani? Do you know that he has made false assertions in his book?

Sant Gyani Mohan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale sent a team of Singhs to investigate the claims of Gyani Gurdit SIngh. He was proven false on multiple occasions. For example, he claimed that

• Saroop (which was given Gurgaddi by Tenth Master) at Sri Hazur Sahib jee did not contain Sri Raagmala Sahib jee
• Saroop scribed by Amar Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee did not contain Sri Raagmala Sahib jee

Both the above, were proven false. Pictures were taken by Gyani Harbhajan Singh jee as a proof.

Baba Mohan Singh jee had also stated that an article should be put in media regarding Gyani Gurdit and he should be punished.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Gyani Gurdit Singh didn't believe any of those Sarroops that you mentioned to be penned down by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Baba Deep Singh Ji. He believed both indivuduals did write Sarroops, but they ones being shown around today aren't their Sarroops. That was his assertion.

Joginder Singh Talwara and Jathedar Vedanti examined all these claimed Sarroops and found them inconsistent with one another.

On 8/1/2017 at 10:39 AM, chatanga1 said:

I wonder where the story of Madhav Kaam Kandla came into this. It has been disproved by scholars.  Prof Anurag Singh has researched raag Mala for over 11 years and has shown a lot of evidence that the Kaam Kandla connection is false.

It came from Madhavnal Kaam Kandla. Shamsher Singh Ashok published the entire book. 

Prof. Anurag Singh took an interesting approach as a scholar. I have no respect for him, not because of his beliefs in Raagmala and Nanakshahi Calendar. He seems to profess anything that wins him his crowd, albeit within a certain boundary. 

He's now claiming the AKJ Bhai Randhir Singh's letter to Gyani Gurdit Singh was falsified and supports an assertion his own father bore testimony against.

His defense of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is very appreciated, however. He's recieved a lot of popularity recently, and but has been restricted to a certain crowd for which he changed his previous opinions and ideas over. 

On 8/1/2017 at 5:32 AM, paapiman said:

If you read the next Pauri, it will prove that he had a doubt in his mind.

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

What is the translation of the next Pauri? You forgot to show that. Just curious.

On 8/15/2017 at 3:07 PM, amardeep said:

What are those about and how do you know Kavi Santokh Singh used those?

Malwe Desh Rattan Ki Sakhi Pothi is of Sakhis related to 9th and 10th Patshah in the Malwa Region of Panjab. Gur Rattan Mal is the old Sau Sakhi, apparently written by Ram Kuir Ji/Baba Gurbaksh Singh Ji and/or Bhai Sahib Singh, is a book that deals specifically with the 10th Guru. It has a load of interpolation, but Shudai can be done by consulting old  manuscripts. 

I don't remember if  Kavi Santokh Singh cited these two books in Suraj Prakash. But many Sakhis in Suraj Prakash are ditto copies of those two books.  

On 8/15/2017 at 2:24 PM, chatanga1 said:

 

Any idea of the years these were completed in ?

Mid 1700s most likely. Malwe Desh Rattan Ki Sakhi Pothi maybe even earlier.

4 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Why bro?

How did you guys come this far debating on a wide range of subjects without a grasp of this kind of vocabulary? You find it your run of the mill Punjabi-Sikh books.  I have no intent on offending anybody here.

this is a little disheartening to read.

On 7/13/2017 at 3:13 AM, paapiman said:

What do you mean by, his views are quite clear? Mahakavi Santokh Singh jee never said that Sri Raagmala Sahib jee is not Gurbani. He was not sure about it. He said it is either Guru-Krit or Sikh-Krit. He was misinformed by Sobha Singh (who in turn was also misguided by a British agent by the name of Chetan Das).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

He said it wasn't Guru-kit.

ਲਿਖੇ ਸਮਸਤ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਸੋਅੂ, ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਮਾਂਹਿ ।
ਅੰਤ ਸਰਬ ਕੇ ਲਿਖਿ ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ, ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਿਤ ਮੁਹਰ ਲਗੀ ਜਨੁ ਵਾਹਿ ।
ਭੋਗ ਸਕਲ ਬਾਣੀ ਕੋ ਪਾਯਹੁ, ਮਹਿਮਾ ਜਿਸ ਕੀ ਕਹੀ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ।
ਭਵਜਲ ਭੈਰਵ ਕੋ ਜਹਾਜ ਬਜ਼, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਰ ਪਰਾਇ ॥੩੯॥

ਰਾਗਮਾਲ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਿਹਂ, ਹੈ ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ ਲਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਬੈਨ ।
ਇਸ ਮਹਿਂ ਨਿਹਂ ਸੰਸੈ ਕੁਛ ਕਰੀਅਹਿ, ਜੇ ਸੰਸੈ ਅਵਿਲੋਕਹੁ ਨੈਨ ।
ਮਾਧਵ ਨਲ ਆਲਮ ਕਿਵ ਕੀਨਸਿ, ਤਿਸ ਮਹਿਂ ਨ੍ਰਿਤਕਾਰੀ ਕਹਿ ਤੈਨ ।
ਰਾਗ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਨਾਮ ਗਿਨੇ ਤਿਹਂ, ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਅਰਜਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਹੈਨ ॥੪੦॥

14 hours ago, paapiman said:

 

Bro, many Khatris/Bhappe are Keshdharis, but not Amritdharis. Majority of the Amritdharis in our Panth are probably Jatts (who carry Kirpans).

Also, many Khatris/Bhappe live in areas in India (outside Punjab)/Pakistan, etc, where Sikhs are a minority (in some areas they have been living there for generations), whereas Jatts/Tarkhans/Majhbis are mainly concentrated in Punjab (within India). It is easier to have ਰੜਕ ਮੜਕ when you are in a majority.

Coming to the diaspora, Jatts are in great numbers in Canada, UK, etc, where they enjoy freedom and protection from the law. You cannot compare these liberal nations to middle eastern countries, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc, where many Bhappe/Khatris live.

I was born in a middle eastern country, where many Bhappe lived. When I was a teen, I used to think of them as cowards too, but later I realized that you have to be smart/prudent as a community to survive. We should not act in ways which endangers the existence of our community or invites backlash from locals..

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I wholeheartedly agree with that, we have to be smart to survive as minorities in other countries, especially these Islamic ones.  Survivalism entails not putting ourselves in situations that will result in our demise.

12 hours ago, paapiman said:

An Indo-Pak war will most likely result in a world war. It will be a Parloh.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Though it may seem possible, it's unlikely for it erupt into a world war, unless of course other countries have vested interests and bones to pick, or other conflicts escalate at the same time. Say, for example, a war in the South China Sea, or a NATO vs. CSTO war, or some war in the middle east), then we may see the onset of another world war.  Otherwise, the world's major/global powers (regardless of their relations with India and Pakistan) would sit back and employ diplomacy and stand on an ethical high ground by not interfering in a war.  

12 hours ago, paapiman said:

To some extend, Sikhs had no option but to fight back (as in the example provided by Kuttabanda2 paaji), but we can never justify killing Muslim women. That will remain a shameful part of our history.

Like for example, in Amritsar, Muslim women were paraded naked and then burn't. This was completely against Sikhs ethics. Sikhs are not suppose to kill women and children in a war.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

That is true,  Dasmesh Pita Ji commanded us to keep Khalsai Achaaran even in times of battle and warfare.  The acts of violence against women and children in 1947 is a permanent stain upon our history.

2 hours ago, amardeep said:

Send me your e-mail on a PM and i'll mail it to you. An awesome analysis

Dhanvaad Ji. That'd be wonderful

6 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

No, I wonder why though. We do our matha to a massive granth, which we accept as Guru, yet are quite averse to reading.

The average Sikh has prioritized financial, social, and personal success/prosperity (i.e Avarice) over faith.  Both can be central to one's life and thought, with Sikhi taking precedence with no compromise to the former.  But apne don't think that way.  Dharam for them, are a set of traditions and beliefs convenient to their lifestyle and a cultural nuance they put up with.  It's a product of this modern individual-centric social mentality, that supersedes and suppresses a wider sense of communal identity, belonging, and responsibility, a reason why Daswand isn't so widely practiced anymore among Sikhs anymore as they have developed apathy and indifference for fellow Sikhs.  Due to this, they don't study their faith, or even read for pleasure or intellectual enrichment, thus books become irrelevant and unimportant for such these dull 'Sikhs'.  Also a reason why we have Sikh kids growing up in Sikh households with little to no awareness and interest in the faith and community they were brought up with.

6 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Bhai Taru Singh's Shaheedi memeorial Gurdwara.

Ohh my bad.  Read somewhere that it was panjve Patshahi's.

6 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

In Pakistan it's a little hard. The Sikhs are scattered except for Peshawar. I asked a Kabuli Sikh once, when there were around a good 50,000 Sikhs in Kabul, why didn't they arms themselves during the civil war, and protect themselves. He gave a feeble answer that if we had guns they would have used rockets against us.

 

But the impression I got more from these Afghan/Pakistan Sikhs were they were more of the Khatri (trader) mentality. They didn't seem to have the "rarak-marak" ( ਰੜਕ ਮੜਕ ) that Jats/tarkhans/mazhabis have. Afghans trouble started in 1973, but the Sikhs there never thought enough to procure arms for self-defense.

 

Coming back to Pakistan, the Sikhs there are generally much more well off as they are all traders, and have businesses (as in afghanistan), but this was the same situation the Jews found themselves in, in Germany in the 1930s.

I could agree, Sikhs there aren't as bellicose as their Jat/Tarkhan/Mazhabi counterparts.

I can understand why they feel that way, if they retaliated, it would just turn their already uncertain situation into a communal frenzy.  Being a minority in a 98% Muslim country would be enough to cause anxiety.  The general mentality of the Pakistani populous is bigoted enough due to the Country's Islamization and Islamic indoctrination,  I wouldn't be surprised if another series of pogroms take place there.

I guess we'll have to wait for political circumstances to change in the region for us to see any hope in that area.