paapiman
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Posts posted by paapiman
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Guys please stay on topic. We are going bit off topic now.
Good one bro.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Funny coming from you when you put wrong meaning to one single tuk in Gurbani to justify wives viewing their husbands as God, when the full context was saying the opposite and referring to husband Lord.
That was the meaning given by the great Gurmukh scholars of the panth and most likely, they have way way way more knowledge of Gurmat, than you or me.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Well then, I guess for you Gurbani has no practical use...
Gurbani is there for US to READ OURSELVES and contemplate. Not just listen to others. YOUR journey is about YOU and not Brahamgyanis who came before you.
We should read Gurbani, but learn the pronunciation and its meanings from Gurmukh scholars. After that, contemplation can begin. We should not use our own minds, to fabricate wrong meanings of Gurbani.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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On 4/28/2015 at 11:18 AM, Satkirin_Kaur said:
So I am not saying Gurus werent God. I am saying that they, and us, and everything are!
If you believe that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj was God, then you would not have asked such questions:
Quote
If Guru Nanak Dev Ji IS incarnation of God can u please explain:
1. Why Mool Mantra says God does not take birth or death (formless) and that all forms occur within God?
2. Why did Guru Nanak Dev Ji disappear for three days at the river where he was said to be in 'presence of' that divine and had the revelation revealed to him about reality... Of Which he wrote down as Mool Mantra?
3. Why he would claim that he is but a servant of God?
I thought Sikhi does not believe God takes direct incarnation / avatars.... That we believe in the One timeless formless Akal Purakh??
I think I posted the concept of Nirgun Sargun in another thread... But suffice to say that if ALL forms occur within the One then no one form could ever be the sum of that One.
Unquote
Edited by Satkirin_Kaur, 15 April 2015 - 04:45 AM.
In the first post by truthseeker546, he asked the following question.
Are there any clear proofs on the Gurus being God from SGGS?
That question has been answered convincingly.
He did not ask about humans.
Also, Islam does not believe in incarnation of God. If you believe, Satguru jee is not an incarnation of God, you are following the Muslim ideology.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Can't be any clearer than that
You are right, bro. It is so surprising that such a simple concept, can be made to look like a very complicated one.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Please know, that I am just trying to get you to read Gurbani for yourself and study it and the deeper meaning, instead of just parroting what someone else told you and taking single tuks to suit your needs.
People need to stop using their mind (Manmat) and adopt Gurmat (the mat of Gurmukh Brahamgyanis). I am not interested in following my dumb and rotten mind.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Paapiman is having trouble answering your question because he refuses to acknowledge that everything and everyone are really the Creator. And he is viewing things in a very Abrahamic light... that Creation is somehow separate from Creator.
It's almost simple when you think of it as ONE dreamer. ONE dream.
Every character within that dream is really the ONE. You can dream at night and create an entire universe within your dream. And every character you create is really you. And you can keep adding characters too! There is no lineup of ghosts etc waiting for bodies etc... because ALL souls are from the ONE primal soul.
Think of it another way... you write a play. You also decide that you will play ALL of the characters within it on stage. You can add as many characters as you want but ALL of them are really YOU under the costume.
Let's see what truthseeker546 has to say about it.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Lucky you said the same thing as I did, just in different words!
I don't know why people find this so hard to grasp???
Even, I find it so hard to believe, how some Sikhs can question whether Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj was God or not, in spite of crystal clear evidence present in Gurbani itself.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Nanak Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Pooran Har Avtaar.
Jagmag Jot Biraaj Rahi, Sri Guru Granth Majhaar.
Amazing post. This is the icing on the cake, for this topic.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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So rumours. Thanks. If you think SGGS is a person, that's your opinion. No need to keep repeating, I heard you the first time.
To everybody else,
Tell me if i am wrong. I think this whole masand incident was built on rumours or is a rumour itself. Are there any more pieces to this story that I am missing? pieces that are recorded and NOT just heard from a "famous gurmukh"?
A Gurmukh never spreads rumors. Masands got, what they deserved.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Are you sure this could also mean something else... remember that metaphor is used heavily in Gurbani...
When one becomes Brahmgiani (and realizes their OWN SELF), they realize the truth about reality and reflect God through their every thought and action. We are told in Gurbani that every one of us IS God and we have just forgotten that fact by this enticement called Maya. We have become immersed in this Ego identity and the 'rules' of this world of Maya. So have become consumed by greed... lust.... anger.... attachment... desire.... but it IS within us to surpass this and 'remember' who we are (simran/remembrance).
The above tuk could just as easily have been saying that Guru Arjun was reflecting the qualities of God through his every thought and action, so that there was no *distinguishable* difference between him and God. It doesn't have to be a literal meaning that he was physically God as in an incarnation. When so much metaphor is used in other shabads, it wouldnt make sense that this one is literal by itself.
I think we have to be careful about not taking everything literal and look for the deeper meaning...
Again, if God is formless and that is the ultimate realizty and everything exists WITHIN God, then no single thing WITHIN a WHOLE could ever = that whole.... If you have a pie, and it's filled with cherries, no single cherry would ever be the whole of the pie. In your dream at night, every character is really you, but no single character in that dream could equal the WHOLE of you. They are just a character being played by you for the duration of the dream. N30 and I have already pointed out the shabad that explains this very clearly on Ang 736.
Further... we are told:
ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
Sohaʼn āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e.
One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥
Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9||
When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||
ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Parabẖ abẖināsī gẖar mėh pā▫i▫ā.
I have found the Immortal Lord within the home of my own self.
ALSO (Ang 106):
ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਨੇਰਾ ॥
Gẖat gẖat anṯar varṯai nerā.
Deep within each and every heart, He dwells near and close at hand.
ਸਦਾ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Saḏā alipaṯ jī▫ā kā ḏāṯā ko virlā āp pacẖẖāṇai jī▫o. ||2||
He is always detached; He is the Giver of souls. How rare is that person who understands his own self. ||2||
ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਿਲਣੈ ਕੀ ਏਹ ਨੀਸਾਣੀ ॥
Parabẖ milṇai kī eh nīsāṇī.
This is the sign of union with God.
ਮਨਿ ਇਕੋ ਸਚਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੀ ॥
Man iko sacẖā hukam pacẖẖāṇī.
in the mind, the Command of the True Lord is recognized.
No point in debating further on this topic. It will be complete waste of time.
Enough evidence has been provided for a normal person to understand that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj is God. It is very very clear evidence.
If someone has a doubt on Satguru jee, he/she can follow a different path.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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yes, casteism (or shall i call it Jattism) playing huge role in the current wave of intolrance sweeping sikhism. In one of the incident of badmash Company ruthessly beating khalsa sikhs, the satkari thug first asks for the victim's caste. On hearing the answer that he (the victim) is a Sansi, thrashing starts. most of the victims are mazhabis/dalits but almost all of the thugs are jats. pher kehnde khalistani movement nu sarkar ne marya.
Bro, do you have any more examples of racism towards mazhabi people?
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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when i read this sakhi i thought of it more of the masands appropriating the sangats money earned through blood sweat and tears. Guru Ji set this example as a warning for people in the future of committing such deeds.
Satguru jee would have never given such harsh and cruel (from a non-Sikh perspective) punishments, if only theft and misappropriating funds were involved. Even if adultery, alcohol, etc were also involved, Maharaaj would have given them milder punishments.
Being boiled alive for theft only, does not make sense in Gurmat at all.
Don't get me wrong, I am not denying that masands engaged in theft and misappropriating of funds.
Thats more to do with humans being humans more than anything, trying to deflect questions to avoid giving answers. You know like when you ask a kid why did you do that and they say well so and so did it as well.
Good point.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Also I don't speak Gurumukhi. so can someone (other then Paapiman of course) confirm that the above translation of the verse is agreed upon by all Sikhs.? Does the translated word (of Lord) here have the same ambiguity, as in English. Lord can mean master, leader, owner etc.
Not that I doubt you Paapiman, I just want to get a wide range of beliefs (if there are)
There is a cult/sect in Sikhism which does not believe that Lord Guru Nanak is God. It is not an orthodox sect of Sikhism and it was started many years after tenth master. Almost all orthodox sects believe that Lord Guru Nanak is God himself.
Peace
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Thanks paapiman, umm any reason only Guru Nanak is mentioned in the above mentioned verse. and not the other 9 as well?
Are there any other verses that mention other Gurus being God? or is it only Guru Nanak?
Lord Satguru Nanak was the incarnation of God, from birth. He gave this power to the next guru and so on. Finally, the power was given to the holy book. Below is a verse, regarding fifth master from SGGS.
ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥
So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||
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hindutva sena up to it's old tricks. It's in your blood isn't it? To try and twist things to make Sikhs look like we are wrong?
Bro, what do you mean? I did not understand your comments.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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It may state that the punishment should be the same, however in practice the men are rarely punished or punished as harshly.
In Sikh history, most of the harsh punishments have been received by men (this is from what I have heard). I have not heard about any sakhi, where a prostitute was burnt alive or stoned to death, even though prostitution was prevalent during the times of gurus.
Okay maybe your right maybe we should just light everyone on fire who we think has committed some crime against Sikhi.... Should we also establish a religious police like Islam? DO we arm them with flame throwers??
In this topic, we are not talking about crimes such as prostitution, adultery, theft, libel, assault, etc. We are talking about two major crimes:
- Burning a copy of Satguru jee which is equal to burning the physical body of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj
- raping of women
In addition to the above two, pedophilia and aggravated assault (which leads to a major injury and done out of no proper cause) can be considered for death penalty, after it has been proven, without doubt, who the perpetrator was.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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That was my question as well BhagatSingh,
where indeed does it mention rape, as it's not mentioned in that quote.Any other references to rape. quote would be nice
Please see my previous post.
Peace
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Where does it mention rape?
ਮਸੰਦਨ ਪਰ ਜਬ ਪਰ ਗਈ ਬਾਈ । ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਤਿਨ ਦਯੋ ਫੁਕਾਈ ।
ਤਿਹ ਪਰ ਦੀਨੋ ਡੇਹਰੋ ਚਿਨਵਾਇ । ਹੁਤੋ ਪਿੰਡ ਤਿਸ ਤਾਂ ਪਰਨਾਇ ।੧੪।ਦੋਹਰਾ : ਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤ ਉਨ ਤੋੜ ਬਹੁ ਤਿਹ ਥਾਂ ਲਈ ਪਰਸਾਇ ।ਐਸੀ ਐਸੀ ਬਾਤ ਸੁਨ ਦਏ ਮਸੰਦ ਮਰਵਾਇ ।੧੫।ਚੌਪਈ : ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੁਕਮ ਖਾਲਸੈ ਭਯੋ । ਮਸੰਦ ਭੇਟ ਚੰਡੀ ਕਰ ਦਯੋ ।ਕਈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਈ ਨੀਹ ਚਣਾਇ । ਕਈ ਘਸੀਟ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਈ ਤੇਲ ਤਲਾਇ ।੧੬।I heard about the rape part of it, from a famous Gurmukh. Even if they had ONLY burnt a copy of Satguru jee, that would have been enough to justify the punishments, they received.
How would you people feel, if your father, mother or a loved one is burnt alive? What punishments would you people recommend?
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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so when a Human being does something wrong / evil. That's in fact a part of God that is doing so ?
We are getting off-topic. Please start a new topic regarding the above matter.
In this topic, it has been proven, without doubt that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj is God.
Peace
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Is there a English translation of the Vaaran of Bhai Saab Bhai Gurdas online? If so does anyone have a link?
http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/pauri_by_pauri
This is the same Bhai Gurdas Sikhs get the Dassam Granth from right?
Bhai Saab Bhai Gurdas jee merged into God during the times of the sixth master. He was not physically present, during the times of tenth master. There is another Sikh scholar by the name of Bhai Gurdas Singh, who was present during the times of tenth master.
Peace
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I think we're going in circles, OK let's go around again;
Bro, you might have the time and energy to go around in circles, I don't. Time is very precious.
A male and female couple can get married, for procreation only. Two females or males cannot procreate naturally.
Again, this question has been answered. Did you read all the posts on this topic properly?
Enough evidence has been provided from SGGS in this topic. You can repeat the same question, a thousand times, if you want. It is your choice
Umm there isn't anything in the SGGS on homosexuality. You gave some verses that are open to interpretations.
The quotes provided were very clear for a normal person to understand. You have full rights to disagree to it.
Peace
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That's all it says in the writings.
You think someone should be boiled alive if they burn a saroop of Guru Granth Sahib ji? Don't we burn Guru Granth Sahib's saroops when it gets too old anyway?
Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is the living form of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj. He is considered by many, to be like a parent. How will you react, if someone tries to burn alive your father or mother?
Satguru jee's old saroops are cremated as a dead body of a person is cremated. You cannot compare, burning a person alive to cremating him, once he/she is dead.
That was a very very disappointing statement, especially if you are a Sikh.
The masands deserved all the types of punishments, they received as mentioned in Sri Guru Panth Prakash. There was nothing wrong in burning them alive/bricking them alive for the heinous crimes, they had committed.
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So the above quote from BhagatSingh : " In Satyug you ...by his very command". Guru Granth Sahib, 1390
There was some confusion from other people that this quote is either from Dassam Granth or Sarbloth Granth. Can you confirm that this is from the Guru Granth Sahib?
It is from Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee.
And can someone tell me which Guru interpreted this as " Gurus being God" as to me at least this verse is not clear but rather interpretation. Guru could have been humans and reincarnated into various historical figures. Doesn't mean to say he was God. Where does SGGS interpretations come from?There have been other quotes provided in this topic too. Did you read them?
The below verse, was posted by another member. This should clarify your doubts in this matter.
ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥
Gur Naanak Naanak Har Soe ||4||7||9||
गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||
36795 ਗੋਂਡ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੬੪ ਪੰ. ੧੯
Raag Gond Guru Arjan Dev
Peace
Gurus And Gods?
in Sikhi | Questions and Answers
Posted
Off-topic.
Time is very precious.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh