paapiman

Sorry I've been occupied with a few things of late, this couldn't come on this forum. I asked some questioned regarding this topic in my post "Gods and Gurus" .. I will continue to write on this topic on that thread.

Some of the answers to Gurus being God cause more problems then solutions, "we are all part of God" - then whom are we worshipping? How can (Humans) be part of God himself, then reincarnate as lesser being, etc etc... and so on.

Not only are the humans, part of God; everything that exists, is a part of God.

Peace

OK, this above site only mentions one story of "astral travel" - story of a person the Guru met in Baghdad. (Vaar 1 Pauri 36).

Sorry what book is this referring to? Are there any other quotes from SGGS on this? Anything on other gurus travelling to other worlds?

It is referring to the Vaaran of Bhai Saab Bhai Gurdas jee, who was one of the greatest scholars during the times of the gurus.

The below verse is enough to prove that God (Satguru jee) can do anything.

ਸਭਨਾ ਗਲਾ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮਨਹੁ ਵਿਸਾਰੇ ॥

Our Lord and Master is all-powerful to do all things, so why forget Him from your mind?

Also the quote above says " Upper and lower worlds" how do you know this is simply not referring to earth and the heavens? Rather the alien planets?

The reason God (Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj) took the son of the peer to the other worlds was to broaden the mind of the Muslims. Muslims believed that there were only seven heavens and hells. Satguru jee proved them practically that there are many many more.

In this sakhi, Satguru jee also proved the theory of relativity as the son of the peer thought that he had spent lots of time in the other worlds, while actually on earth, it was just a little bit of it.

Peace

"I don't think two males (or females) would want to get married, if they had no sexual feelings towards each other "- I don't think a male and female couple would want to get married if they didn't have sexual feelings for each other.

A male and female couple can get married, for procreation only. Two females or males cannot procreate naturally.

Common you have to admit most of these answers are all interpretation, nothing is actually mentioned in the SGGS directly about this.

Enough evidence has been provided from SGGS in this topic. You can repeat the same question, a thousand times, if you want. It is your choice.

Peace

As a Non Sikh, I'm intrigued as to why exactly did the 10th guru have the masnads killed. In the original quote it only refers to disrespecting Sikhism and having their own place of worship. said nothing of rape or murder. can someone enlighten me on this please.

They committed rape too.

Also as an added note to Satkirin_Kaur, you know I find it interesting that when Sikhs are trying to defend aspects of their faith they quote SGGS and gurus, any controversies they simply say this is not Sikhi - I just saw a very disturbing video of an elderly man being beating by a group of men for praying in the wrong place or something. reading the comments, every Sikh was saying this is not Sikhism.

The people who committed this act of violence, are not Sikhs as they don't understand the basics of Sikhism. Violence can only be used in Sikhism, when all other means have failed.

Also to note - It's very interesting to also see whenever I see something negative regarding Sikhs/Sikhism, Sikhs are very quick to point fingers at Muslims or Christians and say well they have the same in their religion. That's a really pathetic way of defending or questions actions in ones faith. If Sikhs want to be understood as a unique faith different from Islam and Hinduism, then they need to take responsibility for the actions of Sikhs according to the teaching and principals of their own faith.

Idiots and fools are born in almost all communities/religions. We do not need a phd to understand this fact.

Peace

Here is real potrait of sri guru tegh bahudar ji, its orginally from decca but now currently residing in calcutta museum.

This potrait was given to me by sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale who have research on this potrait. Sant ji talks about orgin of this potrait, once one shardlu asked premession from guru ji to draw his potrait. Guru ji told him shabad naal zaro. After repetetive benti from shardlu, guru gave premession to draw his potrait. At this point, shardlu sikh tried to draw guru ji picture. However he cannot draw guru ji face because it was full of parkash. Again shardlu benti guru ji, at that point naouvaen sache patsah himself drew his elahi noor face and completed this potrait.

Here darshan karo:

Bro, I cannot see the picture.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee fateh

Is this case of general Sikh extremism beating or this case has under toning of Jatt singhs hiding behind self righteous cause oppressing, beating poor mahbzi sikhs?

https://www.facebook.com/1487588338156221/videos/vb.1487588338156221/1558567321058322/?type=2&theater

Please provide your input.

Thanks for the information. It is very sad.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Who gets to decide if someone is a rapist or pedofile? Is it purely taken on the victim's word? What if there is no definite evidence, only circumstancial? Capital punishment has resulted in many many deaths of innocent people who were convicted of purely circumstancial evidence throughout history. Who truly should get to decide someone's fate like that? Are we really qualified as humans? What if you killed a person only to then find out they were wrongly accused? Then you have effectively murdered someone... should you then also suffer the same fate?

Feeding a rapist in a jail and giving him life comforts might be considered civilized by some people, but for me, it is foolishness. We need to follow the footsteps of our great warriors. Women molesters and rapists have always been dealt with a strict hand in Sikhism.

Examples:

1. Masands - executed by Satguru's order - already detailed in this topic

2.

*

When in 1768, on the complaint of a Brahman whose married daughter has been forcibly seized by Hasan Khan, the Nawab of Jalalabad Lohari, the Sikh forces marched on Jalalabad under the command of Karam Singh Shahid who emerged successful in the fighting. The Nawab was tied to a cot and burnt alive. Nawab's agent, a Hindu Kalal, who informed him of the beautiful girls, was publically executed. The Brahman's daughter was restored to her husband and the Sardar saw that the food cooked by the girl was served to all the Brahmans of her husband's village. The Sikhs gave a sufficient amount of money to the girl's husband to assure good treatment for her.

* [1]

[1] - http://www.sikh-hist...ram_shahid.html

3. Example of Jabar Khan (executed by Satguru's order), mentioned above by Sikhkhoj.

There are many more....

Look at Sharia Law.... MANY MANY innocent girls and women are wrongly killed for supposed crimes they never committed merely on suspicion or accusations from a male family member. Once they are dead, its too late to say sorry for wrongful accusation...

You are referring to infidelity. Rape and infidelity are vastly different. Obviously, infidelity does not deserve capital punishment.

Do we want to be seen in this light? This is why capital punishment has been abolished in majority of civilized countries... I say civilized because I don't really consider USA to be civilized anymore (if they ever were, I think it was an illusion) just look at daily news from there!

We should not care too much about what people think about us. We need to follow Gurmat; not make all people happy and change our religion.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I tried looking at it like that. But it seems too disconnected from what I know of Guru Gobind Singh ji. (Keep in mind, my understanding of Guru Sahib already lacks a sugar coating )

Why would he order the torture (I have to disagree with you there, this is not painless death), why would he order the torture of all masands for the acts of a few?

(if we are sure that they are acts and not rumours. There are plenty of rumours recorded in our history as well, and taken as fact today)

Guru Gobind Singh ji definitely killed people, but he always had certain code of conduct. He didn't go all out Tyrannical on people like Aurangzeb.

Bro, Satguru jee did not order the execution of all masands. There were three examples (might be more) in history.

1. There was a masand, who used a gift (cloth) by a Sikh, for his own purpose. The only punishment he received, was that he was tied upside down from a tree.

2. Another masand, turned out to be a Gurmukh. I can't recall his name. Maharaaj refereed to him as Sachi Dhaari (true beard or something like that).

3. Another sakhi, which is mentioned by Bhai Saab Bhai Vir Singh jee, is that of a person named Dulcha. This happened when the tenth master was very young. He had stolen gold bangles, sent by a Sikh for Satguru jee. He was also forgiven by the lord.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

You're a typical whitey. Point fingers everywhere and ignore what's going on in your own back garden..

Bro, that was kind of rude. I guess, you should apologize to the sister. Rest is your choice.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

N3O you left out the part where the guys says -

ਚੌਪਈ : ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੁਕਮ ਖਾਲਸੈ ਭਯੋ । ਮਸੰਦ ਭੇਟ ਚੰਡੀ ਕਰ ਦਯੋ ।

Satiguru ordered the Khalsa, to sacrifice all masands to Chandi.

ਕਈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਈ ਨੀਹ ਚਣਾਇ । ਕਈ ਘਸੀਟ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਈ ਤੇਲ ਤਲਾਇ ।੧੬।

Some were killed by weapons, others were bricked alive. Some were dragged by horses and killed, others were tortured in boiling oil.

What I find interesting here is that that this guy claims that Guru Gobind Singh ji used the same methods of execution that the Mughals used on Sikhs. I don't know what to make of that. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest.

If they had not done the above, Maharaaj would have given them less punishment. I don't think the punishments mentioned above, are very cruel for a rapist.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

"Satguru Nanak Aap Parmeswar - Avtaar Lie Shubh Bans Pardhana".

Sri sarbloh Granth

What do you think guru gobind Singh Ji is talking about with this tuk?

PS: The punjabi version is in the tarna dal gutka... I tried finding it online but couldn't...

Good one bro.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Thanks Pappiman, i agree Jathere different from Shraddh, i did not make any such claim. I quoted from Chaupa Singh Chibber Rehatnama which asks Sikhs to perform Shradd. well respected scholars have also published papers metnioning that Guru Nanak devji performed shradh of his father two days before his own death. a Khatri man doing what a khatri man is required to do.

Sorry about that bro.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I suppose that's fair enough. However, I do have many arguments that justify homosexuality. First of all, if two consenting adults love each other, why should their actions not be justified? The key word being consenting adults, meaning that pedophilia and bestiality can not be compared in any way to homosexuality, and to do so is heinous and wrong. I can only follow your argument if you think that heterosexual relations are just as bad as homosexual ones.

That is a very good point.

Another argument against homosexuality that is often heard is that it is unnatural. But what does that even mean? No, homosexuality doesn't produce children. But aren't there enough in the world that don't have homes? And by no stretch of the imagination will homosexuality take over the whole planet and result in the end of the human race. Also, it is a very common occurrence in nature. Lastly, human beings, Baptized Sikhs included, benefit from many things that are unnatural. Unless you are living as an ascetic, devoid of all manmade materials, then you are not living a "natural" life.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Does anyone know of any sakhi in which Satguru jee, forgives a rapist? There are many people, who were forgiven for their heinous sins (see list below), but I have never come across a rapist being forgiven.

- Sajjan thag - Murderer and Robber

- Kouda - Cannibal

- Sau Suhagan - Adulterous

- Bhoomian - Hardcore robber

- Raj Dev lut - Demon

- Laajvard - Demon

- Aurengzeb - Mass murderer

- Babar - Mass murderer

- Shah Jahan - Mass murderer

- Jahangir - Ordered the martyrdom of fifth master

- Prithi Chand - Many crimes

- Baba Ram Rai jee - Dealings with Aurengzeb

- Some masands (please see link below for details)

If anyone knows about it, please let us know.

Khalsa's way of dealing with women molesters

Here is a story regarding Sardar Karam Singh Shaheed's (second jathedar of Shaheedan Misal after Srimaan 108 Baba Deep Singh jee Shaheed) treatment of women molesters.

*

When in 1768, on the complaint of a Brahman whose married daughter has been forcibly seized by Hasan Khan, the Nawab of Jalalabad Lohari, the Sikh forces marched on Jalalabad under the command of Karam Singh Shahid who emerged successful in the fighting. The Nawab was tied to a cot and burnt alive. Nawab's agent, a Hindu Kalal, who informed him of the beautiful girls, was publically executed. The Brahman's daughter was restored to her husband and the Sardar saw that the food cooked by the girl was served to all the Brahmans of her husband's village. The Sikhs gave a sufficient amount of money to the girl's husband to assure good treatment for her.

* [1]

[1] - http://www.sikh-hist...ram_shahid.html

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

This would suggest Creatorion is separate from Creator... same as Christianity, Islam etc teaches. However I have not found one single tuk in Gurbani which suggests Creation and Creator are separate.

And yes our job is to merge back with Creator... however... we are not separate so merging is not a good word to use really. We only have the illusion of being separate. Hence, it's not actual merging we need to do... what we need to do is lift the veil of the illusion so we realize we were never separate to begin with. It's the realiztion of that connection that we have lost... not the connection itself.

Yes, Bhagat Singh JI, we are plagued and riddled with Ego, born of the five evils... these things exist because we are immersed in this illusion and forgot who we are. This identity we have of 'I' is not real. We are only experiencing the 'I' because we are cut off from experiencing the 'ALL' as ONE. The 'I' is merely a character... all of the precepts of this reality that this 'I' has built in this lifetime, which shaped who the 'I' is... this is all false. Behind these precepts of reality which were defined through life experience as the 'I', there exists the actual 'Experiencer' - the ONE doing the observing, the 'Doer'. This is the true identity. It exists even after all of the precepts, personality, that the 'I' had built in it's lifetime, have been completely removed. It has always existed, and will always exist. Remove all of the notions that define you as who you are in this lifetime... there still exists a consciousness who is the one who is experiencing. That is the real you. And it's the same Doer or Experiencer in ALL of us, who is subjectively experiencing itself through many many of these characters who call themselves 'I'. The problem is that we have gotten so caught up in playing the acracter, we have forgotten we were only acting in our own play.

In your opinion, who is Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj? Can you please explain?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

The guru is always forgiving.. If you have done something wrong he forgives you but if you don't ask for forgiveness guru has no pity...

We have to learn how to be forgiving before trying to use any type of force.. The guru always gave anybody a chance even if he was the worst person in the whole world..

There is no doubt that Satguru jee can forgive any crime/sin. But, when it comes to managing a Raaj, certain laws will have to be placed to protect the civilians. Rape and pedophilia will definitely be considered for death penalty. Here is a story regarding Sardar Karam Singh Shaheed's (second jathedar of Shaheedan Misal) treatment of women molesters.

*

When in 1768, on the complaint of a Brahman whose married daughter has been forcibly seized by Hasan Khan, the Nawab of Jalalabad Lohari, the Sikh forces marched on Jalalabad under the command of Karam Singh Shahid who emerged successful in the fighting. The Nawab was tied to a cot and burnt alive. Nawab's agent, a Hindu Kalal, who informed him of the beautiful girls, was publically executed. The Brahman's daughter was restored to her husband and the Sardar saw that the food cooked by the girl was served to all the Brahmans of her husband's village. The Sikhs gave a sufficient amount of money to the girl's husband to assure good treatment for her.

* [1]

[1] - http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/warriors/karam_shahid.html

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Not sure if sikhi supports death penalty or not. I have read some material on legal laws in maharaja ranjit singh time..don't think there was death penalty. According to anandpur sahib resolution, it does not seem it supports death penalty it actually supports socialism model of society. Please read- anandpur sahib resolution, its long but very interesting.

Bro, Singhs waged wars to protect cows (an animal). One can easily guess, what will they do to rapists and pedophiles.

Some comments regarding Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, one of the greatest Sikh warriors.

"He was a tolerant ruler, yet did not permit the Muslims to kill cows. Twice he made expeditions to punish cow-killers; once at Kasur and once at Lahore." [1]

[1] - https://archive.org/stream/SardarJassaSinghAhluwalia-APioneerSikhNationBuilder/SardarJassaSinghAhluwalia-APioneerSikhNationBuilder_djvu.txt

That's justifying monarch/medieval which is designed to take Sikhi back to 15th century if not before.

Jathere ..are bad, beadbi? How about this extarct from a writer (Chaupa Singh Chibber) who was 10th guru sahib's contemporary.

Rituals

For a shraddh ceremony, prepare the tastiest of food and summon fellow members of the Khalsa. Read the Anand, recite Ardas, and feed the assembled Sikhs. Perform other unspecified rituals punctiliously, never. entrusting them to Brahmans. [16, 20]

Bro, I think Shradh is different from Jathera. Jathera is usually connected with worship of ancestors, while Shradh is a ceremony, which can be used to help our ancestors. There is no worshipping of ancestors in Shradh. Hindus pray to Sri Ganesh jee, which in a sense is better than praying to ancestors (in most cases).

Anyways, the actions of these people are against Gurmat.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I have no problem with story as Guru maharaj were beyond gunas. Also previous history- pre formation of khalsa and post were done within monarchy context.But the issue here is using exceptional examples from history setting them as precedence for normal day to day non violent disputes/issues. I highly doubt even previously non violent issues were resolved by violence if thats a case its contary to our gurmat sidhant- Dhual dharam DYA ka poot - From compassion, dharma is born.

Some sakhis related to this context:

1. There was a masand, who used a gift (cloth) by a Sikh, for his own purpose. The only punishment he received, was that he was tied upside down from a tree.

2. Another sakhi, which is mentioned by Bhai Saab Bhai Vir Singh jee, is that of a person named Dulcha. This happened when the tenth master was very young. He had stolen gold bangles, sent by a Sikh for Satguru jee. He was forgiven by the lord.

3. Another sakhi, which is also mentioned by Bhai Saab Bhai Vir Singh jee, is that of a robber who stole Rs. 700 from a trader, at Anandpur Sahib. This thief was also forgiven by Satguru jee after he promised that he won't steal again.

4. There is another sakhi, regarding a Singh, who hit a dog with a stick, for no reason. Satguru jee was not happy with him and asked him to do certain number of paaths to get forgiven.

Therefore, the above four sakhis clearly illustrate the vast amount of forgiveness inside Satguru jee, We should try to follow his teachings.

Other communities are also struggling with this type of phenomena where people are using examples done in monarch historical period and projecting them in modern democratic era especially western countries law which is quite fair (UK/Canada/US)

I don't think bro, the law in Canada is fair, when it comes to rape, aggravated assault and pedophilia. It is not that bad, in other cases. If we had Khalsa raaj, I am pretty sure these crimes would be punished by death. In my opinion, these three crimes are worse than killing a person instantly.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Here is sakhi of sri guru gobind singh ji and mahants:

http://kam1825.podbean.com/e/sri-guru-gobind-singh-ji-and-the-wicked-masands/

Bro, if I remember correctly (it was a long time ago), a Gurmukh of very high avastha told me that masands committed rape too. Along with the beadbee of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, misuse of daswandh, stealing, etc; I think in this case, they deserved to be burn't alive.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

There is only ONE in existence... God.

That is the avastha of a Brahamgyani. I don't think, there are many Brahamgyanis on this forum.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Your answer to 1. seems just your thoughts on the subject. Please provide actual references where you got that theory...

This is the explanation (more or less), I heard from a scholar.

Gurbani repeatedly refers to God as 'Formless' so aside from the Mool Manar stating God is beyond birth and death, we are told unequivocally, that God has no form. If God is formless (in addition to being beyond birth and death), then how can God have (only one) form? It's easy to understand how ALL forms are God because we are told EVERYTHING happens WITHIN this formless God. But not if ALL of God were suddenly WITHIN God in only ONE form - then how could all other forms still exist? What would they then be existing within? Since everything happens only within God, there would be nothing left 'outside' of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, in order to sustain everything else.

There is a sakhi regarding tenth master, when he was at Nanded. Master became formless before going to Sachkhand. Sikhs were able to see the feet of Satguru jee, but were not able to touch them. This sakhi is more than enough to prove that Satguru jee could become formless, at will.

Your answer to number 3. doesn't address question 2. If Guru Nanak were already ALL of God incarnated, then why would he need to disappear for 3 days at the river and be brought into Divine presence and revealed the truth about reality and God which he later wrote as Mool Mantar? If he was ALL of God would he not have known the nature of God already?

I never said that I have answered number 2. I don't know the answer to that question, but I will try to find out the answer.

The above, are three really good questions asked by a member. The following are the answers, to the first and the third question.

Again please provide references where your explanations can be found in Gurbani. You can easily find the references for what I have wrote above...

More than enough Gurbani tuks have been provided in the link below, to prove that Satguru jee is God himself. Please check the link below.

The following gurbani tuk by tenth master himself, should be more than enough for proof.

waheguru sri guru Nanak dhar ke moorat hai jag ayo

Sri Guru Nanak or Waheguru has formed an image and has come to this world

If you are still not satisfied, then you will have to talk to a great scholar such as Gyani Inderjit Singh jee Raqbe wale, Gyani Mohan Singh jee Bhindrawale, etc.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

If Guru Nanak Dev Ji IS incarnation of God can u please explain:

1. Why Mool Mantra says God does not take birth or death (formless) and that all forms occur within God?

2. Why did Guru Nanak Dev Ji disappear for three days at the river where he was said to be in 'presence of' that divine and had the revelation revealed to him about reality... Of Which he wrote down as Mool Mantra?

3. Why he would claim that he is but a servant of God?

I thought Sikhi does not believe God takes direct incarnation / avatars.... That we believe in the One timeless formless Akal Purakh??

I think I posted the concept of Nirgun Sargun in another thread... But suffice to say that if ALL forms occur within the One then no one form could ever be the sum of that One.

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur, 15 April 2015 - 04:45 AM.

The above, are three really good questions asked by a member. The following are the answers, to the first and the third question.

Therefore, in conclusion, Satguru jee refers to himself as a servant of God, insect, worm, etc to teach us humility, so that we can overpower the powerful demon of ego.

I am Sikh, and I am bisexual. I also recently attended a dear friend of mine's wedding -- he married another Sikh man. The ceremony took place in an American Sikh Gurdwara, and it was just beautiful. This couple is so loving and authentic. They embody all the Sikh values of unconditional love for others, oneness with God, and Seva, among many others. They play amazing Kirtan and read the Sri Guru Grant Sahib regularly.

It's so hard for me to imagine that such wonderful people can be considered "unnatural" and unwelcome in the Sikhi community. Conversely, I am friends with many Sikhs that are heterosexual, and though they may not partake in such "sins," they do not even hold a candle to this couple. They are not nearly as loving, spiritual, and selfless -- not to say that they are bad people, but in terms of spirituality and Sikhism, the homosexual couple is the most evolved I know.

And I do not think that they would be "better Sikhs" if they hid their true selves and conformed to what society would expect of them. I believe that their self-acceptance is part of what makes them such amazing Sikhs, and more importantly, amazing human beings. So, pardon me if I fail to understand how they could possibly be considered "unnatural sinners" and "not good or true Sikhs" because of whom they choose to love.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Below is a video link which shows some so-called Sikhs beating a Sadhu. Firstly, it's completely against Gurmat to beat someone for following his religion. Everyone has a right to follow his/her way of life. Secondly, this has the potential to instigate communal clashes. We have already suffered so much in 1947 and 1984.

These people are spoiling the name of Sikhs. God save us from these idiots.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh