paapiman

listen to the video again

Can you please elaborate? How can one justify this act of violence? I did not watch the whole video as I am a mentally weak person. So, if you could explain, that would be great.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Following come to mind for now:

paan supari khatiyan mukh beedan laayian har har kade na chetyo jam pakad chalayian

par triya roop na pekhe netra

ninda ustat doyoo bibarjit...

jaag leho re mana kahan gafal soya...

so sikh sakha bandap hai bhai jo gur ke bhaane aave...

I am not a scholar but above are quite simple to understand in a given situation.

What kind of anti-gurmat activities are you looking for?

Singh saab, I mean 'tuks' which can be used to justify any anti-gurmat activity. All the tuks which you gave, cannot be taken in the wrong sense.

Like for example,

ਜੇ ਲਖ ਇਸਤਰੀਆ ਭੋਗ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਰਾਜੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥

You may enjoy the pleasures of hundreds of thousands of women, and rule the nine continents of the world.

If there was no 'ਜੇ' word in the above tuk, then this tuk could have been used to justify polygamy.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

What the hell is a 'jathereya di tha'??

Jatheras means ancestors. Worshipping at places of Jatheras is a tradition among Jatts. Das jee has already provided details of it.

Please read the link below.

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_samparda_jat3.html

Worshipping ancestors is not allowed in Sikhism, but worhsipping for ancestors is allowed.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

You mean...

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Fair enough.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

As for homosexuality it goes against nature. I very highly doubt that Sikhi will ever allow two men or two women to be married for the simple reason that Sikhs respect our bodies how they were meant to be. Homosexual sex is unnatural and goes against that because of well... Biology! Having said that I have nothing against LGBT but to be Amritdhari they would have to be celebite for simple reason they can't marry via Anand Karaj and amritdhari can not have sex outside marriage. And Anand Karaj is only recognized way of marriage in religious sense.

Good point.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

But majority was given the right to make decision of the panth by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. You can't claim that just because you disagree with the majority, that it's wrong and ignore it. Since there are so many groups involved with differing opinions, some were bound to be upset. But the fact is that Sikhi was given ability to evolve through panthic decision. There will never be 100% in any decision. But majority does win out. Sometimes you are in the group who's views win, other times maybe not. But you have to respect that authority which was given.

Where is it written, that majority was given right to make a decision? Can you please provide references? Are you referring to Sarbat Khalsa?

Maharaaj gave authority to five Gurmukhs to make decisions. Those five men, who have conquered the five demons (Lust, anger, etc) and are willing to sacrifice their lives at any point for a just cause; they are the ones who can take a decision.

For example, the original Panj Pyaray. This was stated by Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj, hundreds of years before the creation of Khalsa.

ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥

The five accepted ones will be the leaders.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Not all Sikhs follow your line of thinking. Deriving pleasure with your spouse is allowed. Seeking sex for ONLY pleasure is not. There is a difference between using sex for purely physical reasons, and expressing love and emotion to your spouse. It was not purely for procreation only, or else humans would not have emotional bonding with their spouse. Your line of thinking is leading you to a very Islamic interpretation of Sikhi. Maybe even more restrictive than Islamic. You can believe it if you want. my last words on this are:

In fact, I believe that your way of thinking is similar to that of Muslims, as in Islam, one can have unlimited sex with one's spouse. On the other hand, Sikhism is different. It allows marriage, but with some strict conditions.

Please don't say that YOUR viewpoint only is Gurmat! There are far more groups than the couple so called puratan groups you keep mentioning! If you want to follow this severely strict interpretation of Sikhi, then please do so... but don't mislead others into thinking that viewpoint is the majority because its not! I can assure you that EVERY Sikh married couple I know, has not stopped having sex because they have had the kids they want, or because they are in their 50's. I can almost guarantee it!

Can you please name some of the groups which you mentioned above? There are more than enough purantan groups such as DDT, Nihangs, Nanaksar, Rara Sahib, Harkhowal, Udhasi, other Nirmalay, Sevapanthi, etc

Another point, majority is not always right. Today, majority of the Sikhs are not baptized, but it is mandatory for a Sikh to get baptized. In fact, a person cannot call himself a Sikh, without getting baptized. Even in countries like UK or Canada, majority of the Sikh youth are monay. That does not make, the heinous crime of cutting hair, as acceptable in the panth.

Please dont mislead Truthseeker into thinking this severe strict form of Sikhi is what all Sikhs think... because its not!

Gurmat does not force its views on anyone. Every one is entitled to his/her opinion.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Have a smaller Kirpan in Your Keski.

10th Patshah says:

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਸੀਸ ਪੈ ਰਾਖ ਕੈ ਬੁੰਗਾ ਊਚਾ ਧਾਰ ||

-Bhai Daya Singh Rehatnama

Here's a Small Rehatnama from Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee in regards to Kakkars and Kurehats:

ੴਸ੍ੀਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹ॥

ਸਿਖੀਰਹਿਤ॥

ਸ੍ੀਮੁਖਵਾਕਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ੧੦॥

ਨਿਸ਼ਾਨੇਸਿਖੀਈਂਹਰੂਫਪੰਜਕਾਫ॥

ਹਰਗਿਜ਼ਨਬਾਸ਼ਦਈਂਪੰਜਮੁਆਫ॥੧॥

ਕੜਾਕਾਰਦੋਕੱਫਕੰਘਾਬਿਦਾਂ॥

ਬਿਲਾਕੇਸਹੇਚਅਸਤਜੁਮਲਹਨਿਸ਼ਾਂ॥੨॥

ਹਰਫਹਕਾਇਤਅਸਤਈਂਪੰਜਕਾਫ॥

ਬਿਦਾਨੰਦਬਾਵਰਨਗੋਯਮਖਿਲਾਫ॥੩॥

ਹੁਕਾਹਜਾਮਤਹਲਾਲੋਹਰਾਮ॥

ਬਾਚੀਸ਼ੇਹਿਨਾਂਕਰਦਰੂਸਯਾਹਫਾਮ॥੪॥

Bro, can you plese provide the english translation of the above?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I earlier made the statement exactly what you just said... that if sex is purely for procreation only, then why would two people even get married at all if they can not conceive due to medical reasons... they would have the label of spouse, but be living as brother and sister. No point.

This is my point! The self proclaimed 'Orthodox' Sikhs on here sound a lot like the "Khaliban"

What do you mean by Khaliban? Never heard of that term before.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

The tuk I'm referring to is from Sri sarbloh Granth and also appears in the tarna dal gutka.

Can you please get the exact verses?

Thanks

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

The thread is about homosexuality, what does Gurmat say about this. not individual interpretations that are subject to culture, education, geographical location etc.

It is already been proven that sex for pleasure is a sin. Please click on the link below for details.

In my opinion, most homosexuals, if they get married, do engage in sexual activity for pleasure. But, let's assume that there is a case of a homosexual couple, having no sexual feelings among them and they want to get married.

It will still, not be allowed in Sikhsim. The reason being that there are clear verses in Gurbani, that indicate that a marriage is a relationship between a man and a woman.

Firstly, in Lavan, the Gurbani read during Anand Karaj, it states:

ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਕਾਜੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਧਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਵਿਗਾਸੀ ॥

The Lord God, my Lord and Master, blends with His bride, and her heart blossoms forth in the Naam.

Secondly, there is the following verse. Again, there is a mention of a husband and a wife.

ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥:

Dhan pir ayhi na aakheean bahan ikthay hoyi. Ek jot dui mooratee dhan pir kaheeai soyi:

Bride and groom are not they who pose as one whole; bride and groom are they who are two bodies with one soul (sggs 788). [1]

[1] - http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart278.htm

Furthermore, the below verses clearly indicate, even to a layman, that marriage is meant for a male and a female

ਤਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਲਾਗੀ ਜਾ ਸਹੁ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੋ ॥੧॥

Then, you shall be known as a devoted and committed bride, when you enshrine love for your Husband ||1||

ਇਆਣੀ ਬਾਲੀ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੇ ਜਾ ਧਨ ਕੰਤ ਨ ਭਾਵੈ ॥

What can the silly young bride do, if she is not pleasing to her Husband?

ਜਾਇ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਵਾਹੈ ਕਿਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥

Go and ask the happy, pure soul-brides, how did they obtain their Husband?

According to my limited knowledge, there is no mention of Gay marriages in SGGS, even though homosexuality was present, during the times of Satguru jee. By reciting the above verses, Satguru jee has illustrated that a marriage is a spiritual union between a male and a female; thereby banning any other type of marriage. In the same way,there is no mention of pedophilia in SGGS. These unnatural acts have no place in Sikhism.

Having said the above, there is no discrimination against homosexuals in Sikhism. The doors of Lord Guru Nanak, are open to all.

Homosexuality is a disease and homosexuals need to be treated for their condition. If someone says, that there is no room for homosexuality in Sikhism, that would be like saying that there is no room for Asthma in Sikhism. Please click on the link below for details.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/131211/news-current-affairs/article/homosexuality-disease-yoga-can-cure-it-ramdev

Therefore, in conclusion, verses have been provided to you, which prove that sex for pleasure is a sin in Sikhism, and gay marriages are not allowed in Sikhism.

Peace

please add this note to your discussion that loss of one drop of semen equals loss of about 90 loss of blood drops. therefore, more loss less spirituality, and for procreation a drop may suffice.

Thanks bro for reminding me about this issue.

"According to the Ayurvedic understanding of the creation of body tissues (dhatus) it takes anywhere from 60-100 drops of blood to make one drop of semen." [1]

[1] - http://www.semenloss.info/content/ayurvedic-intro/

We can use that precious blood to donate someone in need and also, for the benefit of our own health. As Satkirin jee said that there is less than 8% chance for a wife getting pregnant during one sexual act; married Gursikh males will definitely need to preserve it, as sex will have to be repeated for the procreation act to come to fruition.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Sri Guru gobind Singh Ji maharaj also wrote "guru Nanak aap parmeshvar" in Sri sarbloh Granth...

In my opinion the guru is god and there is no difference.

Bro, is it in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee or Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee? I think, you are referring to the below tuks.

*

aad niranjan hai guru Nanak dhar ke moorat hai jag ayo, lok suniyo bidh lok suniyo sab lok suniyo sab darsan payo

..... sangat par utaaran ko satgur Nanak panth chalayo, waheguru sri guru Nanak dhar ke moorat hai jag ayo

* [1] - http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66824-help-find-this-bani/

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

If Guru Nanak Dev Ji IS incarnation of God can u please explain:

1. Why Mool Mantra says God does not take birth or death (formless) and that all forms occur within God?

2. Why did Guru Nanak Dev Ji disappear for three days at the river where he was said to be in 'presence of' that divine and had the revelation revealed to him about reality... Of Which he wrote down as Mool Mantra?

3. Why he would claim that he is but a servant of God?

I thought Sikhi does not believe God takes direct incarnation / avatars.... That we believe in the One timeless formless Akal Purakh??

I think I posted the concept of Nirgun Sargun in another thread... But suffice to say that if ALL forms occur within the One then no one form could ever be the sum of that One.

Your questions will be answered.

In the meantime, here are the proofs that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj is God himself.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

There are Sikh scholars who disagree with you Paapiman... and they explain the spiritual connection of marital sex. (As I have tried to explain... it's not purely physical) It actually mirrors the connection we are supposed to find to God. In a committed relationship, husband and wife literally become one soul in two bodies. Joining physically, they share spiritual energy and become ONE on the same path. The book excerpt I posted below does a better job of explaining it and he actually speaks AGAINST using sex purely for procreation and instead says it is for husband and wife in a deeply committed relationship to establish that spiritual connection:

Book: Sikhism By Arvind-Pal Singh Mandair

Do you know the background of this author? Which Taksaal (school) did he go to? What are his credentials? Has he done any sangat of any great gurmukh/mahapurakh? Did he have any personal experience, like you have had?

I don't think, any orthodox Sikh scholar will differ with me, on this topic. But every person is entitled to his/her opinion.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kaa Fateh

If Guru Nanak Dev Ji IS incarnation of God can u please explain:

1. Why Mool Mantra says God does not take birth or death (formless) and that all forms occur within God?

2. Why did Guru Nanak Dev Ji disappear for three days at the river where he was said to be in 'presence of' that divine and had the revelation revealed to him about reality... Of Which he wrote down as Mool Mantra?

3. Why he would claim that he is but a servant of God?

I thought Sikhi does not believe God takes direct incarnation / avatars.... That we believe in the One timeless formless Akal Purakh??

I think I posted the concept of Nirgun Sargun in another thread... But suffice to say that if ALL forms occur within the One then no one form could ever be the sum of that One.

Good questions, but two of them are very easy to answer. I will answer them later.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

If marriage is not allowed for homosexuals who want to have sex (because they can't have kids) why is Anand Karaj allowed for couples that like having sex for pleasure, and use birth control because they don't want to change their lifestyles? Why are they allowed to go into a Gudwara and get married? As I understand there is no screening before the marriage?

Obviously, there is no screening before marriage. Those are personal matters. They will have sex and use birth control only after marriage as premarital sex is a sin in Sikhism. If they don't want to follow Gurmat, it is up to them. Why would a priest ask them such personal questions? How will a priest ever figure out, whether a couple will use birth control or have sex for pleasure? We will have to assume, that they will follow the Sikh lifestyle and marry them. Rest is up to them. Gurmat does not force anything on anyone.

Peace

And according to you homosexuality is only if the couple have sex? OK. so if two 80 year old women, who love each other and can't have sex now due to their age want to get married. There is no problem if they get married in a Gudwara via Anand Karaj if they were Sikhs. They cant have sex so they are not homosexuals right?

Why would two people, who have no sexual desire in them towards each other want to marry? They can just stay as friends. Are there any real life examples of what you said? I am curious to find out.

Are you 100% sure that 80 year old women can't have sex?

Peace

Further to my post on 24 forms of a formless God, I was made aware that some Sikhs at least believe the Guru's to be in Gods form.

Before I start some questions regarding this, can I ask is this a belief shared by all Sikhs or just some sects?

Are there any clear proofs on the Gurus being God from SGGS?

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਵਡਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਲ ਰਾਖੀ ਮੇਰੀ ॥੪॥੧੦॥੫੭॥

Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||4||10||57||

The word 'ਵਡਾ' also means big. Who is the biggest of all - God; Who is God - Lord Guru Nanak.

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

Guru is Bani.

ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is.

Bani is God

Therefore, it can be proven from the above that, Guru is God.

Peace

This is a very Sufi view on sex. I recall from a module on Islam I did.

So what's wrong with it? Most religions have many similar concepts in them.

Seems like there is no real answer from SGGS, but various interpretations from people who have been inspired from various religions, be it Veda's or Sufism.

What are you trying to say? Quotes from SGGS have been provided to you regarding sexual desire. Please click on the link below.

What else do you need? I have already told you that, Vedas are also respected books in Gurmat and are taught in Taksaals (Schools).

Obviously, people will have different interpretations and opinions. Because of that, it is very hard to have a debate on this forum.

Although A would be problematic if you believe the Gurus to be divine.

Someone has already answered your question regarding the above. We believe, Satgurus to be incarnations of God. Please click on the link below.

Peace out

Why is seen as sinful in Sikhism (for pleasure) even if done between married couples? so Sikhs don't believe in foreplay or kissing??? Is making sweet love to you wife lust in Sikhism? Then why did God make Sex feel so Good? If sex is only for procreation, why don't Sikhs have test tube babies now since it's possible. Don't have sex at all?

I have answered the first part of your question in another topic, where you asked a similar question. Please click on the link below.

Bro, even doing drugs feels really good. But, they are a taboo in Sikhism and they are bad for the health.

I don't know much about test tube babies, but it is not a natural process. Natural process always has its benefits.

Also bro, please do me a favor. Don't repeat the same or similar questions in different topics, if you don't mind.

Peace out

Where is SGGS does it say sex for pleasure is bad?

Kaam is refereed to as sexual desire in Gurmat. There are more than enough verses in Gurbani regarding it. Some of them. I have posted below.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਤਨਿ ਵਸਹਿ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥

Sexual desire and anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.

ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਸਮਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥

Engrossed in Maya and sexual desire, the fool does not understand.

ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮਦਿ ਬਿਆਪਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੨॥

Engrossed in the intoxication of sexual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again. ||2||

There are many more.

and where in SGGS or rahit-nams does it say the gurus never had sex?

Satguru jee were above bodily pleasures, enjoyed by humans and animals. First, you need to understand that as Sikhs, we consider Satguru jee as an incarnation of God. Please click on the link below for the proof.

Now, God is above all human desires and weaknesses. In Sri Jaap Sahib, God is refereed to as 'Nrikaamae' which means desireless.

Therefore, in conclusion, Satguru jee never had sex.

Peace out.

OK Paapiman, your obviously not getting the point. I mentioned a few examples where sex is not an issue. People who can't have children, due to Medical reasons, or say old age. Will you deny they can love someone from their own gender? It's always about sex?

Are heterosexual relations always about sex? so how is it clearly Vasshna? and how is this a Gurmat interpretation exactly? It's your interpretation of Gurmat.

Yes a lot of religions say homosexuality is a sin, but I'm not on world religion forum am I. I'm on Sikhism forum. I'm interested in what Sikhism says on this topic and why.

If someone loves a person of the same gender, without physical relationship, that won't be classified as Homosexuality. That would be similar to bromance as compared to romance.

In a heterosexual relationship (marriage), sex can only be done for procreation, not for pleasure. That is the best way, for the next generation to come. Like for example, alcohol is a taboo for Sikhs, but consuming alcohol in medication, to cure a disease is not.

People who cannot procreate, for whatever reason, can still marry according to Gurmat for emotional, psychological, etc benefits.

In a homosexual relationship, procreation is not possible naturally. Therefore, any sexual activity performed is done for pleasure, which will be classified under lust.

For homosexuality, as I said earlier, I will try researching on it. I am not a Sikh scholar.

I am pretty sure, most of your questions can be easily answered by a Sikh scholar.

Peace