paapiman
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Posts posted by paapiman
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who said it's Kaam Vaashnaa? cultural interpretation. is it not? Like I said some people from US or Europe will disagree with you.
It is clearly kaam vaashna, as the only purpose of it, is sexual pleasure. It is the Gurmat interpretation of it, not a cultural one. If some people disagree with it, it's their choice. We don't force Gurmat on anyone. I believe, it is a sin in Islam and Christianity too.
Tc
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Sorry I didn't see the questions you posted until now when I clicked on the link - I will do some tomorrow, a bit tired now after answering previous posts.
OK - that's right, if we had proof that E.T really existed or there were Martians then I wouldn't have asked the question. But since we don't know if aliens exist and to my knowledge the SGGS doesn't allude to any alien life form on other planets, I think my point stands. By the way if intelligent life forms existed on other planets - that would leave humans as the only ones that could make free choice decisions would it. and then of course if they didn't get any Guru's teaching them - that would rise other problems. but that's another issue, more theoretical one as we don't know about other life forms.
Also I appreciate all the different responses, only one of you mentioned the "time entity" if N30 Singh or you had replied then I would have never heard about it. Although I'm not sure if this is a orthodox Sikh belief. But for me as a non-Sikh I welcome all the different interpretations on Sikhism.
There is proof in Sikhism that life exists in other worlds. The link below should help you understand some concepts.
http://www.wahegurunet.com/astral-plane
Peace
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who said it's Kaam Vaashnaa? cultural interpretation. is it not? Like I said some people from US or Europe will disagree with you.
If having children is not the only goal of marriage but bonding, love, compassion. then if 2 women or men find that in each other, why is that wrong? Any proof from SGGS?
I don't think, homosexuality is normal. It seems to me, as a medical condition. I think, there is reference to it in vedas. I will try researching on it.
Peace
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It's interesting to see the relationship between Gurmat and science. when Gurmat is in alignment with science it means Sikhism is scientific. but of course when it's not - it's screw science.
Gurmat is the most advanced science. Science is not wrong, but is evolving with time and technology. It will take science plenty of time, to come close to Gurmat. The activities which Satguru jee banned in 15th century such as tobacco use or illicit sex, are being proven by science in the 20th century to be harmful to the human health.
I asked a question before to which no one ( I think has answered). If marriage in Sikhism is only for procreation, then can someone who can't have children (due to medical reasons) get married? If so then why, can't have children anyway?
Marriage has other benefits too, other than sexual pleasures, such as emotional bonding, psychological, etc. Therefore, if someone cannot have children, then he/she can marry too. Gurmat is not stopping them.
Also now we have options of fostering, surrogacy, adoption, etc. A ethical person from say California or New York will have different views on this then say someone from India or Africa. Is Sikhism essentially an Indian religion then takes Indian cultural narratives over others?
Sikhism is a universal religion and is not bound to any specific region, unlike other religion or religions. I thing fostering, surrogacy and adoption are allowed in Gurmat.
As far as I know, homosexuality is not mentioned in SGGS, therefore it's all interpretation. Is it not?
Homosexuality is a type of Kaam vaashnaa, which has more than enough references in Gurbani.
Peace
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Question 4
ANIMALS COMING INTO HUMAN FORM ARE NOT GOVERNED BY HUMAN PROCREATION, ALL OF LIFE CREATION IS GOVERNED BY GODS LAW e.g,. THERE ARE TRILLIONS OF GHOSTS WAITING TO OBTAIN HUMAN FORM AND MILLIONS OF DEVAS AND MILLIONS ANIMALS.
@PAL 07
Again you missed the question; the reincarnation theory doesn’t fit into science in relation with world populations. As I mentioned in my question. Interesting point on Trillions of Ghosts?
Where exactly are these ghosts waiting? Can you tell me more about them please? What are they? Do they exist in heaven or earth or somewhere else? SGGS on this? If this is true then why wasn’t the human population a lot higher to begin with?
HUMANS BEINGS DON'T AUTOMATICALLY PROGRESS TO HIGHER FORMS, RARE HUMANS DO, MOST GO BACK INTO ANIMAL LIFE. THE SIKH TEACHINGS ARE THAT THE DESIRE AT THE LAST MOMENT OF YOUR LIFE WILL GOVERN YOUR FUTURE FORM
OK – again missed my question. If rare humans only go to higher form then should there be a huge increase in animal life? As most are going down then?
How do you know that life only exists on this planet earth? If life does exist elsewhere, your logic regarding both human and animal population, is flawed.
Anyways, I think there should be only one person who should be answering your questions. Otherwise, there will be too much confusion. N30 Singh Saab, do you want to do it?
Also bro, you haven't replied to my questions and comments. They are in a different topic. Please see the link below.
Peace
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Here is some information on Guru Nanak Dev Ji Astral Travelling... though I can't vouch for its validity
Seems like a great website. Thanks for sharing it, sister.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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"Satguru gave us a new script called Gurumukhi. One can write any language in that script."
Gurmukhi script existed long before Guru Period. Guru Nanak Dev ji lists all the thirty five characters of this script in his composition 'Patti Asa' pronouncing all the letter names and their order as it exists to this day. Before Guru Period three scripts existed in Punjab: Sharda, Takri, and Lande (also known as Mahajani). Gurmakhi name was given to the 'Lande' script by adding vowel signs to the Landa letters. Guru Nanak Dev ji was sent to the Pandha to study 'Takri and Shastri script'. Landa script was taught at home by Khatri parents to their children as a traditional script for writing business accounts since Khatris were mainly shopkeepers or accountants for rulers. Sharda script was popular in Kashmir and still is. Takri was the script in the Punjab hills. Takri is very much like Gurmukhi.
All these scripts evolved from Brahmi.
In a place near village Hathoor in Sangroor area there existed a place known as Phirozshah da Maqbra. It was visited by devotees and vistors would write their names and dates on the walls. There exist some names and dates written in the Gurmukhi script that predate Guru Angad Dev thereby proving false the claim that Guru Angad Dev was the originator of Gurmukhi script.
Name 'Gurmukhi' does not mean the script of Sikh Gurus. The followers of Gorkh Nath were also known as 'Gurmukh' and this script was also used by them long before Guru Nanak De. Guru ji uses the word 'Gurmukh' in Sidhgost conversing with the Sidhs.
It is intriguing to find that the Arabic Numerals (1,2,3,4,5 etc) now used worldwide were borrowed by Europeans from Arabs way back during first milleneum. Arabs do not claim these to be their own but call them 'Hindsa' or borrowed from Hind or India. These Hind people were Panjabi Khatris trading in Baghdad area. These numeral are nothing but the firts letters of Panjabi words for One, Two, three etc. Thus 2 is the first letter ਦ of the word ਦੋ, 3 is the first letter ਤ of the word ਤਿੰਨ and so on.
Bro, are you 100% sure that all the Gurmukhi letters, along with all the lagan/matras, as given to us by Satguru jee, were in use as a unified script before Satguru jee?
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Or maybe not time travel but soul travel. Beyond this physical illusion, there is no time or space. All is ONE. There have been many stories of people soul travelling (astral projection) to other places.... including Guru Nanak Dev Ji.
Good point. Please do share some stories of soul travel.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Yes I am taking Amrit in Kashmir, and though they are no specific Jatha they allow women Panj Pyares. And have had female Panj Pyares.
As long as you are happy, it should be all good.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Then you would also have to restrict those from being Panj Pyares who were castes differing from the original five... using your thinking. Because nobody from those castes volunteered.
You should only be worried if you cannot find any group in Sikhism, allowing women in Punj Pyaray. But there is AKJ, 3HO, etc which allow women to be part of Panj Pyaray. Therefore, you shouldn't be worried about gender inequality at all and be happy.
Take Amrit and get the blessings of the Almighty Lord.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Not just AKJ or 3HO. There are Gurdwaras who don't follow any jatha and just go by Sikh Rehet Maryada which specifically states either men or women can be panj pyares. I already mentioned that all of Kashmir follows only SRM. I am taking Amrit in Srinagar. And you are right, I am not thinking western mindset. I read Gurbani for myself with open mind. SGGSJ is our highest authority. Rhetnamas came AFTER and were human interpretation OF Guabni not the other way round. So any rhetnama should agree with Gurbani. And that is how I look at it.
You are the BIG BOSS.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Satkirin IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF MEN VA WOMAN EQUALITY. IN SIKHI BOTH ARE EQUAL. The reason as Brahamgiani Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale explained that woman are not allowed in the panj Pyare is because at the time when guru maharaj asked for 5 heads all were male.
Again stop putting a western mindset into Sikhism.
There is no inequality in Sikhism.
Bro, do you know if Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindrwale also gave the same reason?
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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You are still missing the point... if replicating the original five exactly were that important then why is there no restriction on which castes can be panj pyares? There were only some castes who were represented....
How about black men or caucasian men... there were none of them who volunteered that day. How about different names? Maybe panj pyares should all have the exact same name as the original five? Hmmm what about strict vegetarian...
Why is it the only thing that needs to be replicated as per the original their gender??
Also, Amrit Sanchar is SPIRITUAL rebirth... beyond this physical life, gender does not exist. IN fact... we are all referred to as soul BRIDES... therefore our souls are all feminine. Also Gurbani says that he IS the male and he IS the female. Therefore... really, it was the same ONE light in all who volunteered... and the SAME ONE light was also in everyone else in attendance that day.
Also, the men of today, were not there that day. So why should they get to enjoy the laurels of the original five, simply because they have the same physical genetalia?? And as I said if it were the fact of replicating the original, then only those castes that volunteered that day should be allowed as well?
That argument is weak.
Five SIKHS gave their heads. Their physical gender had nothing to do with them volunteering their heads. Five SOULS gave their heads... not five penises.
I agree with her, with regards to the above argument.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Satkirin IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF MEN VA WOMAN EQUALITY. IN SIKHI BOTH ARE EQUAL. The reason as Brahamgiani Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale explained that woman are not allowed in the panj Pyare is because at the time when guru maharaj asked for 5 heads all were male.
Again stop putting a western mindset into Sikhism.
There is no inequality in Sikhism.
Bro, I don't think she is putting a western mindset to it. Most likely, there are Indian women out there too, who think like her. I guess, we will have to respect their opinion.
She always has an option of taking amrit from AKJ or 3HO, who have no problem with ladies as Panj Pyaray.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Hmm but when will the husband bow to his wife out of respect? If not... why?? Why does she not deserve the same respect from him?? If she bows to him out of respect, should he not also bow to her out of respect? What makes him above her?
Where is his instruction to view her as God on equal level? Oh wait.. I already showed it to you!
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||
You can interpret it how you want. But you are missing the point... and I really hope you experience the oneness during simran that I have glimpsed. Then you will understand. There is no He or She. There is only ONE light in ALL.
Please do forgive me sister, if I said anything to offend you or hurt your feelings. I am pretty sure you will forgive me, considering me as a foolish little brother.
The sakhi related to time travel is posted in the Inspirational Stories forum.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
There was a Gurmukh mother during the times of third master. She used to live in Afghanistan and she was married with one child. She used to come to have darshan of Maharaaj and do seva. People observed that she used to move her arm. When someone asked her, she informed him/her that she was moving the cot of her baby. People thought she was mastani in love of God. Once, Maharaaj called her and told her to explain herself. What used to happen was that, she used to live in Afghanistan, which is pretty far away from Punjab (if one is traveling by foot). It would be very hard for her to come everyday to have darshan of Maharaaj and do seva. Therefore, when she would be in Afghanistan, she would focus on the feet of the third master and she would reach Punjab in very less time (sort of time travel). Then, once all seva was done, she used to focus on the feet of her husband, to reach back Afghanistan in a very short period of time.
This sakhi shows us the tremendous power of pati-varta women.
P.S - Please don't start arguing over the authenticity of this sakhi. If someone does not want to believe in it, it's their choice. There is reference to time travel in Gurbani. The ability to move or pass something from one place to another, through the power of concentration in very less time.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Can someone please provide examples of single Gurbani tuks which can be used to justify any anti-Gurmat activities? I am curious to know.
Many Gurbani tuks can stand alone on their own, without context and uthanka. Like for example, the below tuk only has three words in it, but can stand alone.
Awdysu iqsY Awdysu ]
If you take the context and uthanka into picture, then too it makes sense. It might have many more arths.
Please don't give examples of tuks which have the word 'ਜੇ ' (if) in them. Like for example,
ਜੇ ਲਖ ਇਸਤਰੀਆ ਭੋਗ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਰਾਜੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
You may enjoy the pleasures of hundreds of thousands of women, and rule the nine continents of the world.
Any person who understands basic Punjabi, will know that there is more to come in the next tuk.
JYI:
Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Sundar Singh jee Khalsa Bhindrawale (11th jathedar of DDT) did more than 20 arths of a Gurbani tuk.
Dhan Dhan Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Sundar Singh jee Khalsa Bhindrawale
Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Hmm but when will the husband bow to his wife out of respect? If not... why??
I will have no problems bowing to my wife.
A new post will be started regarding single Gurbani tuks.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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I think we are getting off-topic. We should move out of this thread.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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How can a Gurmukh view ALL with the single eye of equality if he expects his wife to prostrate him as a God? He is not viewing her as his equal then is he??
Sister, a Gurmukh male will never expect his wife to bow to him, but a Gurmukh female will do so, out of respect for her husband. It is similar to a Gurmukh female will not expect her son/daughter to bow to her, but her children will bow to her, out of respect.
It is pretty simple to understand.
Have you heard of the time travel sakhi, of a Gurmukh woman during the times of third master?
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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I have shown however that the one you tried to make stand alone actually says the opposite of what's its saying when taken in context. How do you reconcile the meanings being opposite? Is the full shabad wrong then? It also goes against other shabads like the one that contain this:
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||
How can a Gurmukh view ALL with the single eye of equality if he expects his wife to prostrate him as a God? He is not viewing her as his equal then is he??
So that tuk you keep trying to say is telling women to be inferior to their husbands and view them as God (above them), it doesnt hold water to not only the shabad it's contain within, but also many other shabads that are saying the opposite. So no, your tuk can not stand alone as the meaning you wish to use it as. It CAN however stand alone with the meaning "view the trancendent Lord as their husband" meaning since that still agrees with context of the shabad its in, and also the rest of Gurbani.
The following two arths are not opposite to each other, according to me.
This is a teaching for a woman.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
कहु नानक जिनि प्रिउ परमेसरु करि जानिआ ॥
Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.
Says Nanak, she who looks upon the husband as a lord
Or
This is a teaching for all mankind
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
कहु नानक जिनि प्रिउ परमेसरु करि जानिआ ॥
Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.
Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,
It is very similar to the following tuk. It can have two arths - One is a blessing to a son by his mother and the other, a blessing by God to all humans. They don't contradict each other.
ਪੂਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਕੀ ਆਸੀਸ ॥
In fact, this is the beauty of Gurbani. It is able to talk to so many people with different levels, through the same verse.
Do you have any more examples of tuks which cannot stand alone?
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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Using your logic, then one could say that:
ਜੇ ਲਖ ਇਸਤਰੀਆ ਭੋਗ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਰਾਜੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
Je lakẖ isṯarī▫ā bẖog karahi nav kẖand rāj kamāhi.
You may enjoy the pleasures of hundreds of thousands of women, and rule the nine continents of the world.
Soooo I guess, you are allowed to enjoy the pleasures of not just one woman, but thousands!!!
And don't say that you can twist the other tuk around to suit your meaning, but not this one. There is no codex telling us that only some tuks can stand alone (the ones which ironically suit your needs at the time). 3HO does this ALL the time, trying to take one liners to justify kundalini yoga as being part of Sikhi. They take one line saying something to the effect of "they perform kundalini yoga" and they ignore the rest of the shabad where it says ultimately, that yoga did not bring them to God.
What's against Gurmat??? Wives viewing their husbands as God is against Gurmat! Otherwise how would you ever explain how if the SAME ONE divine light is in all EQUALLY, then why would the husband not also view his wife as God? The SAME divine light is in both EQUALLY after all! (This is mentioned in MANY shabads!!!!!) How could God in ANY form be beneath God in ANY other form in some sort of heirarchy, especially when it says divine light in all EQUALLY? God is ONE... so how can you justify women prostrating to men, when God is in both equally?? Your translation does not make sense. And then, when you view the full shabad, it becomes apparent that the meaning was that we are to view God as our Husband Lord and not have attachment to our physical spouse (to the point that we'd kill ourselves if our spouse died).
How could a tuk have opposite meanings and both be true? It would contradict itself. The full shabad is telling wives don't become so attached to your husbands that you kill yourself over their death. Instead view only God as your Husband Lord. It would be self defeating if it also meant to view your physical husband as God!! That is exact opposite of what the full shabad is saying.
I am only asking you to use your brain!
But the above tuk has 'ਜੇ ' in it, which means if. For example, does the following statement in English make sense.
"If you are late to work and you do not perform"
Any person who has basic English skills will know that it is an incomplete sentence. It is different from the below tuk.
Awdysu iqsY Awdysu ]
Also, I have said many Gurbani tuks can stand alone. I did not say all of them, but I am open to the possibility that they can stand alone.
Do you have any more examples?
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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p.s. - I currently serve on the management committee here as treasurer. My sangat supported me when I fought for the right of Sikh women to tie turban in Canadian military, and when the story made it to even Indian newspapers when I became the first Sikh woman to tie dastar in Royal Canadian Navy, my Sangat bestowed me with siropa for opening the door for future Singhnis to do the same without having to fight for it. I am trying to be the change I want to see, by trying to make a difference where I can to uplift other Sikh women and girls. I don't actually do much langar seva... I was never good at cooking. But I try to do seva wherever else I can. Outside of being on the executive committee, I am part of the Defence Visible Minority Advisory Group and helped plan a National event at the base here, involving all the different ethnic communities and I was liaison for the Sikh community and the Hindu community here locally to raise awareness of who we are. All this even though I am not Punjabi. I am a gori who embraced Sikhi for the ideals it teaches in Gurbani about equality.
I greatly appreciate your efforts in fighting for Sikh rights (even though you are a non-Indian in ancestry). You should be a role model for many Sikhs around the globe. All Sikh females should look upon you for inspiration.
Once again, thanks a lot for whatever you have done for the khalsa panth.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
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You need to stop looking at sikhi with a western mindset where there are equality flaws...
Damdami Taksal and Nihang Singhs are the two sampradays started by guru Gobind singh ji.
The only thing that Damdami Taksal as per Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindranwale does is not allow woman in Panj Pyare as per Puratan Maryada.
Sgpc calls for only 3 banis in the morning and a shorter rehras...
Sgpc Maryada is not accurate.
Also Sgpc was dissolved in 1986
Good points bro. But just want to add other sects which were started during the times of tenth master or before - Sevapanthi, Udhasi, Nirmalay (branches into Rara Sahib, Nanaksar, etc), etc.
Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa
Waheguru jee kee Fateh
Homosexuality And Sikhism
in Sikhi | Questions and Answers
Posted · Edited by paapiman
That's why I said, I will try researching on it.
Vedas are also respected holy books in Sikhism. In fact, knowledge of Vedas is taught in Sikh Taksaals (schools). It is a prerequisite to understand some really difficult concepts in Gurbani. Like for example, one would need to complete Calculus, to understand Advanced Calculus.
Peace