paapiman

I have noticed that he tends to take one liners to suit his needs (and insists that is ok to do) while ignoring the context of the shabad as a whole. If we do that, we could find one liners to suit any need and support any argument in SGGSJ. You have to read the full shabad to get it's context and meaning.

Can you please provide examples of single Gurbani tuks which can be used to justify any anti-Gurmat activities? I am curious to know.

Many Gurbani tuks can stand alone on their own without context and uthanka. Like for example, the below tuk only has three words in it, but can stand alone.

Awdysu iqsY Awdysu ]

If you take the context and uthanka into picture, then too it makes sense. It might have many more arths.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

So how do you plan on changing that? Sikhi is about deep self reflection, correcting the wrong, improving and moving on.

Bro, what do you suggest? Remember I am just a low-level jagayasu.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

That works two ways. If a woman has those thoughts because a man wears a muscle shirt or tight jeans, using that line of thinking, should he not also cover? (and yes to answer your question, women are also affected by men dressing provocatively) Those men are also INTENTIONALLY dressing like that for attention... from both women AND other men... (Look at these muscles, see how much I work out? Look how my body is so tight and toned... etc.) You can't apply it to only women. If you think women should only wear loose clothing like salwar kameez, then I hope you don't wear western clothing either... and only wear chola (with pyjami) or kurta pyjama.

I never said women should only wear salwaar kameez. I said loose clothes, which could mean - loose jeans/pants and shirts/t-shirts. Men must also cover themselves with loose clothes and not expose their bodies. Even, they will be guilty if they cause vikaars in the minds of females. I never denied that.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Stop using cop out statements like vikaares like me, you choose that decision we shouldnt be using cop out methods by being lazy and come up with these self loathing statements- everyone one of us have a choice- each every moment we all have choice either identify with conditioned mind -manmukh and identify with pure intuitive consciousness within all of us-gurmukh.

Bro, I am a vikaree banda, what do you want me to call myself? a sant? - There is no ninda or ustat in it. A vikaree is a vikaree as a dog is a dog.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Oh I am calm, it's just frustrating that the one spiritual path that boasts itself as treating women as equals, really doesn't.

You can dress it up any way you want and try to call it what you want. The Singhs can all say 'Oh this isnt discrimination' but it doesn't change the fact that it is. Any time you tell someone they can't do something, for a reason that is beyond their control like.... caste, creed, colour, and yes even gender, it's discrimination. It's very unfair to the ones being told they are 'not allowed' to do something for a reson that's beyond their control. If it was for something that we could change, then we'd change, we'd improve ourselves in order to be able to do it. But if it's based on something like gender, that we are born with, it's very disheartening for Singhnis when Singhs keep saying'You aren't allowed to do this, you aren't allowed to do that' all the while intimating that simply because they happened to be born male, they themselves are allowed. Especially when the task in question, does not actually require any specific genetalia.

Singhs boast that caste discrimination was removed, stating that it means all humans are seen as equals in Sikhi... while still limiting their Mothers, sisters, daughters from full participation. Some go as far as actively looking for any shred of evidence they can to justify limiting Sikh women, instead of looking for evidence to uplift them. This says much about the internal attitudes of many Singhs... just how they view women. If caste discrimination is wrong, why a gender discrimination ok?

Then, these same Singhs wonder why Sikh girls are leaving Sikhi in droves, and marrying in interfaith marriages. Those that stay in SIkhi, go to the Gurdwara as more of a social gathering. Many will not marry a Singh with turban and beard. And Singhs wonder why?? They come here asking for the reasons??? Instead of relegating women to the kitchen, into subservient roles, maybe if Singhs started to uplift Sikh women to equal status, then they would embrace their religion much more. Maybe if SInghs started to support Bibian who choose to tie dastars and take Amrit, instead of trying to tell them that Amrit Sanchar was never meant for women. Maybe if women were respected as more than baby machines and house servants by Singhs, and seen as fully capable of defending themselves with training, and be seen as equals to them, maybe then Singhnis would stick around.

I know there ARE SInghs who think like this... that support Sikh women. I am marrying one. But if majority of Singhs are brought up to think their wives belong in the kitchen in the home, in subordinate roles, only cooking for them in langar, while not participating fully in Sikhi, then how can they ever expect women to actually stick around and take Sikhi seriously?? It's no wonder that most women just go to the Gurdwara to gossip these days and socialize. They for the most part remain in the kitchen where the SInghs pushed them to... and they gossip, and talk about everything but Sikhi. They don't take it seriously because they are not given active roles in religious duties.

Note that I am not talking about everyone. But you can not ignore the trend....

I for one, am serious about deeper philosophy. I take it seriously. I read Gurbani a lot. But to have Singhs tell me on here that I am not allowed to do this, not allowed to do that because I am a woman. It is very disheartening. How am I supposed to stay interested, if everything is done by the Singhs? They are in the limelight... they get to do all the visible seva. Seriously think about this...

Luckily my sangat are very open and supportive of women. And so are the Sangat in Kashmir where I will be living....

If you don't want me to reply to your posts, then I won't do so.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I am sorry if I offended anyone or hurt someone's feelings. I am just trying to learn about Gurmat as much as I can. If someone does not want to adhere to the orthodox Sikh beliefs, then I am fine with it (on a personal level).

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Tankhanama of Bhai Nand Lal, I believe.

Were you able to confirm this information?

Thanks.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I have no issue dressing modestly, and expect the same from men. At the same level. Its when men think they are allowed to do differently that I have issue with. Women also look at men so whats good for the goose is good for the gander so to speak. Men don't get to tell women to dress in tents while they get to wear whatever is comfortable. They should also dress in tents. end of story.

You cannot compare a society where women are dressed modestly (from a male perspective)...........

I hope you read the entire sentence. I am talking from the perspective of a male.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Here is where you are wrong. Animals don't have sex for pleasure. They are the ones who do it only for procreation. They do it by pure instinct drive and not for the reason to be close to their spouse. They are driven by pure instinct only and not a thought to derive pleasure. An animal could care less if there was pleasure or not. They only know that they are driven to do it when it's breeding season.

Humans are above that because we have no breeding season where we instinctively breed. For us there is an intimate connection with our spouse in the act.

You have us and animals confused...

IJJ Singh is correct.

Evidence that animals are into oral sex too.

http://www.thefrisky.com/photos/9-animals-who-are-into-oral-sex/

I am almost sure that they are not doing this for procreation, but rather for pleasure.

I do agree with a bit you said about spouse. I think most animals don't have a concept of spouse in their minds.

Therefore, we are different from animals in two ways - one, we have a concept of spouse and the other, we can choose to engage in sexual activity, only for procreation.

Khalsa jee, a person like me should try to raise above theses animal instincts.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

The main difference between men and women is what's between our legs. And that is being used to put women into subordinate role. Though he didnt say that exactly... he's condoning men having more rights than women in Sikhi because they happen to have been born with male genitalia.

Sister, I think you need to relax.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I am really starting to think with your viewpoints, that you are a Muslim in disguise on here.

This is exactly how Muslims speak. Instead of Muslim men controlling their gaze, they force the women to cover up in tents. By the way women also look at men in the same way, and a LOT of Muslim guys who try to enforce this dress code on women are the first ones at the gym taking pics of their shirtless bodies flexing their muscles and think it's perfectly ok for them. Or wearing those skinny jeans etc. Ill say it again. If a Singh thinks Singhnis should only wear salwar kameez, then he should only be wearing kurta pyjamas esle he's a hypocrite.

Sister, I am talking from the perspective of a male. Did you actually read the first post on this topic or have you just started hating me? I completely agree that men must also dress appropriately with covered and loose clothing. They must not show their muscles, chest, etc. But I have no idea (in details) what women look at when they see men, as I am straight. I cannot talk in details about those matters. I am affected by half-naked women not half-naked men.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I have noticed that he tends to take one liners to suit his needs (and insists that is ok to do) while ignoring the context of the shabad as a whole. If we do that, we could find one liners to suit any need and support any argument in SGGSJ. You have to read the full shabad to get it's context and meaning.

Please talk to Gyani Kulwant Singh jee Habri about it as I heard the above mentioned arth in his katha. Most likely, he has more Gurmat knowledge than you.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Hmm I hope someday to do panj pyare di seva just so I can say see a woman can do it just as good as a man! And I plan to at least have one female panj when I take Amrit soon.

Singhs stuck in past discriminating against women can follow DDT while I will follow SRM. We all have a choice. We all know what's right in our hearts.

Three more points regarding women.

Firstly, Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj decides to form his body inside a woman. Again, this gave honor to the women. He could have just appeared like Bhagwan Narsingh jee Maharaaj.

Secondly, the first woman to have darshan (also kirpa) of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj was a woman, named Mata Daulatan.

Thirdly, the first Sikh is also a woman, which is Mata Bebe Nankee jee.

Great uplifting of women by Satguru jee from very low levels to great heights.

Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj.

Its about the eyes & senses, doesn't matter if you wear a niqab or bikini, a red dress or a black dress. You can get aroused even by a woman wearing hijab if your niyat and mann is not strong.

Evidence to show where men stare at, when they look at women.

http://guardianlv.co...womens-breasts/

You tell me brother, if a woman is dressed in loose clothes (no sexual body parts revealed), what are the chances that a man will keep staring at her as compared to a woman who has tight clothes on. I think, we all know the answer.

Again, I am talking from the perspective of a jagayasu (low level one).

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

It's wrong translation, read the whole shabad, its related to overall attachment/pleasure to clothes and food not by simply wearing out of circumstances. Not sure how you got tight clothes translatation from it

ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਪੈਨਣੁ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥

बाबा होरु पैनणु खुसी खुआरु ॥

Bābā hor painaṇ kẖusī kẖu▫ār.

O Baba, the pleasures of other clothes are false.

ਜਿਤੁ ਪੈਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

जितु पैधै तनु पीड़ीऐ मन महि चलहि विकार ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Jiṯ paiḏẖai ṯan pīṛī▫ai man mėh cẖalėh vikār. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Wearing them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||

Not saying we are at the level, but its starts from mind-thoughts, thats updesh of gurbani to beginner seekers. If you are too worried about external things at any given time, you are choosing to have senses to go outside rather than taking the senses invert/introvert in shabad with effort.

It's quite simple, one does not need to BE bhramgyani in order to praticise meditation with effort of five senses which leads to spritual transcedence. The fact is sikh youths have become lazy wimps to do any effort on naam simran or anything as they are too busy vilifying others, enforce rules in garb of self righteousness..no different musim talibans.

Stop using cop out statements like vikaares like me, you choose that decision we shouldnt be using cop out methods by being lazy and come up with these self loathing statements- everyone one of us have a choice- each every moment we all have choice either identify with conditioned mind -manmukh and identify with pure intuitive consciousness within all of us-gurmukh.

Evidence to show where men stare at, when they look at women.

http://guardianlv.com/2013/10/study-confirms-that-men-stare-at-womens-breasts/

You tell me brother, if a woman is dressed in loose clothes (no sexual body parts revealed), what are the chances that a man will keep staring at her as compared to a woman who has tight clothes on. I think, we all know the answer.

Again, I am talking from the perspective of a jagayasu (low level one).

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Now jumping around differentiating between suha and lal... But the below tuks show that both Lal and Suha can be used positively.

ਲਾਲ ਭਏ ਸੂਹਾ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥

Instead of the pale color of Maya, I am imbued with the deep red color of the Lord's Love.

ਮਃ 1

ਲੋਕਾ ਵੇ ਹਉ ਸੂਹਵੀ ਸੂਹਾ ਵੇਸੁ ਕਰੀ ॥

O people: I am in red, dressed in a red robe.

ਮਃ 3

ਲਾਲ ਰੰਗ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

The Love of the Red Beloved, the Architect of Destiny, is perfect. ||1||Pause||

ਮਃ 5

ਲਾਲ ਰੰਗੁ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਲਗਾ ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਵਡਭਾਗਾ ॥

One is dyed in the color of the Lord's Love, by great good fortune.

ਮਃ 5

ਬਿਸਮ ਬਿਸਮ ਬਿਸਮ ਹੀ ਭਈ ਹੈ ਲਾਲ ਗੁਲਾਲ ਰੰਗਾਰੈ ॥

I am wonder-struck, wonder-struck, wonder-struck and amazed, dyed in the red color of my Beloved.

ਮਃ 5

More scientific evidence linking the color red to sex.

"Social psychologists with an evolutionary bent are in love with the color red. Women wear red, according to this view, as a sexual signal to attract men (e.g. Elliot et al., 2012). In non-human primates, females show they’re ready to mate by displaying red on their bodies, including face, chest, or genitalia." [1]

[1] - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201212/is-red-the-color-sexual-desire

Obviously, I understand, more research needs to be done in this field. But, Gurmat is the most advanced science.

Easy way out - Follow Gurmat blindly. One day or the other, science will prove a lot of things written in Gurbani.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Now jumping around differentiating between suha and lal... But the below tuks show that both Lal and Suha can be used positively.

ਲਾਲ ਭਏ ਸੂਹਾ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥

Instead of the pale color of Maya, I am imbued with the deep red color of the Lord's Love.

ਮਃ 1

ਲੋਕਾ ਵੇ ਹਉ ਸੂਹਵੀ ਸੂਹਾ ਵੇਸੁ ਕਰੀ ॥

O people: I am in red, dressed in a red robe.

ਮਃ 3

ਲਾਲ ਰੰਗ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

The Love of the Red Beloved, the Architect of Destiny, is perfect. ||1||Pause||

ਮਃ 5

ਲਾਲ ਰੰਗੁ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਲਗਾ ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਵਡਭਾਗਾ ॥

One is dyed in the color of the Lord's Love, by great good fortune.

ਮਃ 5

ਬਿਸਮ ਬਿਸਮ ਬਿਸਮ ਹੀ ਭਈ ਹੈ ਲਾਲ ਗੁਲਾਲ ਰੰਗਾਰੈ ॥

I am wonder-struck, wonder-struck, wonder-struck and amazed, dyed in the red color of my Beloved.

ਮਃ 5

Color definitely has an impact on human mind. Please read the information in the link below.

http://www.colour-affects.co.uk/psychological-properties-of-colours

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Thirdly, how absurd does that story of Guru Gobind Singh wearing a red turban sound. For 230 years no Guru wore a red turban ? And my main point, the woman got aroused but Guru stopped Singhs from wearing turbans? That sounds same as men getting sexually aroused by seeing women without much clothes BUT INSTEAD of controlling their eyes and senses THEY force them to wear purdah/niqab, which is condemned in Gurbani and Sikhi.

The Guru would have told the women to control their eyes, doesn't matter if a man wears a red turban or not.

It sounds absurd to you, not me. It was also narrated by a Gurmukh/Mahapurakh. Is there any scientific evidence to prove that color has no affect on the mind?

Its about the eyes & senses, doesn't matter if you wear a niqab or bikini, a red dress or a black dress. You can get aroused even by a woman wearing hijab if your niyat and mann is not strong.

You cannot compare a society where women are dressed modestly (from a male perspective) to a society where you have half naked women roaming around. Obviously, for a jagayasu, former will help him grow spiritually.

Once you reach Brahamgyan, it is a different story. It is very easy to talk like a Brahamgyani, but very hard to walk the talk.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Hanuman might have worn a Kachehra so what? Chandi might've had long kes, so did Jesus?

But its wrong when you say Hindu deities came and gave a thing each to the Khalsa in 1699. The whole Sakhi is fake because Sikhs had Kes since the times of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Secondly they were shasterdhari even prior to the Khalsa sajna (evident from hukamnamas etc). So why would Chandi etc come in 1699 to give Kes if Sikhs were already having Kes? These are all flaws but Gurbachan was no scholar, he was a priest nirmala who blindly believed all he read... Or most of it.

Comeon there is not a single historical basis for his Katha about Muhammad stealing works of a Hindu Sadhu.

Does Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh jee Bhindrawale explicitly say that these Kakkars were given to Khalsa by Hindu Deities or does he explain the history behind the kakkars?

There is a big difference in both of them.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

It's wrong translation, read the whole shabad, its related to overall attachment/pleasure to clothes and food not by simply wearing out of circumstances. Not sure how you got tight clothes translatation from it

ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਪੈਨਣੁ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥

बाबा होरु पैनणु खुसी खुआरु ॥

Bābā hor painaṇ kẖusī kẖu▫ār.

O Baba, the pleasures of other clothes are false.

ਜਿਤੁ ਪੈਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

जितु पैधै तनु पीड़ीऐ मन महि चलहि विकार ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Jiṯ paiḏẖai ṯan pīṛī▫ai man mėh cẖalėh vikār. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Wearing them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||

I heard it in katha by the famous, Gyani Kulwant Singh jee Habri. Even, I believed earlier that if a person gets evil thoughts by looking at a woman, it is his fault. But Gyani jee fixed my thinking. The woman is to blame too, if she is intentionally exposing her body. He was the one who mentioned above the fire analogy. I am pretty sure, you consider yourself lower in Gurmat knowledge than Gyani jee.

Also, I believe that Maskeen Sahib also mentioned about it in his katha. He meant (I am not 100% sure about this) that if a person's clothing causes a vikar in the mind of the other person, the person wearing the clothes is also a doshi. It makes sense to me, especially if the person is intentionally dressing provocatively.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Its fundamental mistake to apply gurbani updesh across the board without the contextualization, relative bachan specific to historical-uthanka or updesh to jaigaso based on their state of mind:

Lal rang is also mentioned in gurbani as sign of love-

Lal rang tis koi laga jis vadbhaga

One is dyed in color of lord loves(inner) outer lal(lali),by great good furtune

male kadae na hovaie neh lagaie dagga

This color is never mudddied, no stain ever sticks to it

If sikhs are staunchly against red, then how come they don't do two things:

1) remove red color rumalaie from sri guru granth sahib ji

2) have so much bhang just like shiv so "manmati color"- red as color of blood in their veins can turn into blue.

You see you cannot run away from red color, can you? its in our blood veins..hell we embody it as long as we have this body

I think suhaa rang is dark red while laal rang is red. Two different terms have been used. There are different types of red color.

Correct me, if I am wrong.

Wahguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Khalsa is given raaj, jog its raj-rishi panth not just rishi(celibate-jatt/sat) panth.

I agree with you. But there is no compulsion for a Sikh to accept a raaj. If a Sikh wants to stay ascetic, he can do so.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Gurmat talks about modesty but does not dictates tight clothing or not if it does surrounding that topic then same rule can be applied on tight chola, specific type of kachera's which are too tight where do you stop? How about flashy glasses?

Gurmat isn't sharia rule books like many musilms use.

The below tuk clearly instructs SIkhs, not to wear tight clothes. This is one of the arths of this tuk. There might be many more.

ਜਿਤੁ ਪੈਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥੧॥

Wearing tight clothes, evil thoughts arise in mind

For eg- if outside flashy dress can easily affect our own inner mind or state of mind in sikhi then problem ultimately lies in ourselves- in our inner jevan- how feeble our inner sikhi/avastha really is. Real Gursikh/Gurmukh state of mind is so dissolved/consumed/stilled in alive shabad jot consciousness that whole world can destroy in front of them in blink of eye they will not even have small wave/ripple in inner state of mind which is absolutely dissolved in absolute unfathomable pure ocean of shabad stillness awareness bliss whatever actions- compassion/right actions-dharam righteousness/fight injustice etc will automatically spontaneously come out of them rather than their center of being-inner most center avastha of gurmukh being affected.

The above mentioned applies to Brahamgyanis, not to vikarees like me. How many Brahamgyanis do you think, are there on this forum?

Satguru jee made some strict rules, so that we can spiritually grow. Like a child, when he is young, needs proper discipline to succeed in schooling. Once, he matures, he is able to move on his own. Rules are very important.

You cannot compare a society where women are dressed modestly (from a male perspective) to a society where you have half naked women roaming around. Obviously, for a jagahasuu, former will help him grow spiritually.

You cannot start a fire and expect that no heat will be produced.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Pappiman, but you are saying that because you have a penis you believe yourself more entitled to do things than I am.

I am not entitled to more things than you, as I am myself a big sinner.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Its fundamental mistake to apply gurbani updesh across the board without the contextualization, relative bachan specific to historical-uthanka:

Lal rang is also mentioned in gurbani as sign of love-

Lal rang tis koi laga jis vadbhaga

One is dyed in color of lord loves(inner) outer lal(lali),by great good furtune

male kadae na hovaie neh lagaie dagga

This color is never mudddied, no stain ever sticks to it

If sikhs are staunchly against red, then how come they don't do two things:

1) remove red color rumalaie from sri guru granth sahib ji

2) have so much bhang just like shiv so "manmati color"- red as color of blood can turn into blue.

Good question bro. God willing, I will try to find out the answer for it. There is a sakhi which states that, once tenth master wore a red turban and was looking very handsome. There was a lady who got sexually attracted to Satguru jee. Maharaaj had to jump out of the window to escape. After that, he declared that Singhs should not wear red clothes. I will try to find the video link for it. The sakhi was narrated by a Mahapurakh.

With regards to red rumallay, as I had said earlier, we cannot apply Gurbani tuks to Satguru jee. Satguru jee can do whatever he wants. Like for example, Satguru jee wore gold ornaments, but Khalsa is not suppose to wear Gold. Secondly, Satguru jee had multiple wives, but we are not allowed to practice polygamy.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh