paapiman

I'm pretty sure the Gurus weren't God, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib even says so in his Bani.

If we keep looking at Sex ( for procreation) as a dirty and impure thing, then we won't understand Banis like Charitaropakhyan ( don't take this the other way).

Bro, who gave you this false information that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj is not GOD? Gurbani proves that Maharaaj is GOD. Brother, don't listen to people who call Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj as an ordinary guru or a prophet.

You are right bro. Sex for PROCREATION is not a bad thing at all.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

a) This bachan is not precedence.

b.) This bachan has a context, without proper context its highly foolish to believe this as this bachchan is circumstantial.

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

a) This bachan is not precedence.

b.) This bachan has a context, without proper context its highly foolish to believe this as this bachchan is circumstantial.

Answers to your issues in a different post.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

WJKK WJKF,

I never said it was banned... just that it was not encouraged. The Gurus did not encourage the yogi way of wandering off alone into the woods and renouncing society to find God. Because they taught God is within everything and everyone all around us and within us. God is no more in the woods than in your neighbour, or yourself.

Agreed, the bujar kurehits include sex outside of marrige... but within it is perfectly fine.

I agree with most of your thoughts except the last line. Sex for PLEASURE with spouse is not a Bajjar Kurehit, but still is a SMALL sin.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Anyway, whether or not the Gurus did it with their wives, does it really matter? They told us to live householder life, and to be faithful to our spouse. They spoke against asceticism and abstinence. Whether they themselves did what they said, the way I look at it, what happened in their bedrooms, is none of my business.

I agree with you sister that this issue does not matter a lot.

In Gurmat, there is abstinence of certain things. That is why we have the four cardinal sins (Bajjar Kurehits). Also, Satguru jee encouraged householder life(due to Kaljugee times), but he did NOT ban asceticism. If a Sikh wants to become an ascetic, he is not doing anything against Gurmat.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

The fact that all species do it (except for vey select few asexual species) shows it was meant to be. If sex were 'sin' then why would God create the only means to sustain a species be something that is considered a sin?

In Gurmat, sex is NOT a sin but sex for PLEASURE is. There is a big difference between the two. Like for example, taking medication which has alcohol in it for curing a disease is different from drinking alcohol for pleasure. One is for survival and the other, for pleasure.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Interestingly I watched a documentary last night on the shroud of Turin, and they tested the blood... whoever was in that shroud (and they believe it was Jesus) had human DNA which was not solely mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondrial DNA is the type of DNA passed by the Mother. There was evidence of two contributors, and both were human.

I have never heard until this forum that the Gurus were virgins and their wives had all immaculate conceptions. This is not a widely held belief. I asked a visiting Giani his thoughts on this and its also not something he has heard before either. With nothing in writing, I don't know if its true or not... but does it really matter anyway? The Gurus taught us to live life of householder and not ascetic. To not abstain, but to share the gift of togetherness with one's spouse. Why can't we just follow what they taught, without questioning if they did the same or not... Either they did or didn't but what happened in the bedrooms of the Gurus I don't think is our business to pick it apart.

Is there any 100% proof that the above mentioned corpse was that of Jesus? According to Quran, Jesus Christ aka Hazrat Isaa jee was raised to heaven, so there would be no corpse left.

Which Gyani did you talk to? What are his credentials? Which Taksaal did he study at? There is a BIG difference between widely held belief and orthodox belief. According to orthodox sects of Sikhism, Satguru jee did NOT engage in any sexual activity like animals or humans do.

Guru Sahib never forced householder life on a Sikh, even though they encouraged it due to Kaljugee times. Therefore, in Gurmat we have an option to either become a householder or an ascetic. Satguru jee were also not against marriage, yet we see so many famous Gursikhs following celibacy.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

So if eliminating age discrimination was one of the reasons, then why no woman as Guru to eliminate gender discrimination? It doesn't make sense that God would want to get rid of all forms of discrimination except that of gender... which in many cases has been the worst! What about respect for women, learning from women??

Only God knows the reasons, but it makes no sense to eliminate some forms of discrimination but not others.

There is clear evidence in Sikh history with regards to age discrimination. There was a pundit who wondered, how can such a small child be a guru and have a name, which in a sense was better than that of Lord Krishna. Satguru jee shattered his ego and he became a Sikh.

Satguru jee also eliminated discrimination against women. Satguru jee gave enough rights to women. Women were treated very lowly during those times. For example, women were NOT allowed to listen to Katha. Maharaaj gave them this right, which was revolutionary at that time. Even the first Sikh of Satguru jee was a woman. There are many more such examples.

Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Furthermore Guru Har Rai had also 2 sons, Ram Rai and Har Krishan. Ram rai joined the Mughals and according to some sources had the 9th Guru Tegh Bahadur killed ( by convincing Aurengzeb ). Also to briefly mention Guru Tegh Bahadur nephew Dhir Mall, who had problems with him and the 10th Guru.

Bro, can you please provide me the source where it states that Baba Ram Rai jee was involved in the martyrdom of the ninth master?

According to an authentic Sikh source, Baba Ram Rai jee was forgiven by the tenth master.

Peace

So some more questions, if the Gurus like you suggest were born without male participation, so all their wives of the Gurus and indeed the Gurus themselves were all virgins?

Guru Nanak didn't pass on the Guruship to his sons, (which is why Siri Chand started his own version of Sikhism - (Udaisi sikhs come from this) - does this mean children born with divine favour were still not as good as someone born normally ie Bhai lena.

What is so surprising, if all Satgurus and their wives were virgins? If Mother Mary can be a virgin, so can all the wives of Satgurus.

How do you know, Bhai Saab Bhai Lehna jee were born normally?

Peace

And why did the Guru's have numerous children and wives if they only needed to pass on Guruship to one male?

Peace

​As a non Sikh I don't believe in the Guru's being divine, or inspired by God. Although I admire the message from Guru Gobin Singh very much. I see this historically and logically as maybe political decisions in which the Gurus were chosen, hence some of the internal problems that arose then and after within Sikhism.

Bro, please name us one person/saint/prophet/demi-god/deity,etc who has done more service to humanity than Lord Guru Nanak? I am curious to find out.

Peace

You said for example: Guru Har Krishan needed an excuse to leave this world. That only raises more questions in my head. Why would a Guru or God in Guru form, need to come into the body of a 5 year old child only to "need an excuse" to leave 2 years later (via smallpox) in order only to come again as another Guru. Why not just go to Guru Teg Bahadur to begin with.

3. Establish a medicinal water pool - Satguru jee used to give medicinal water to thousands of sick people in need and he set up a pilgrimage site for the generations to come, so that they can cure their diseases too.

Take care.

@Ragmaala

Firstly I'd like to apologise if I caused offence, this wasn't my intention. I'm simply trying to learn more about Sikhism.

Now you said the Gurus never had sex. This is news to me, is this a orthodox sikh view? This is the first I'm hearing of it. Do Sikhs believe all 10 gurus were born without sexual intercourse? so all were miraculous conceptions similar to Jesus?

If this is true then how do you explain charitropakhyan?

If this topic is a bit sensitive for sikhs then I won't ask any further questions on it, I'm just trying to understand Sikh beliefs?

Thanks

Sri Charitropakhiyan Sahib is meant for Sikhs/non-Sikhs to understand the trickery of human mind. Gurbani is meant to be applied to normal humans like us, not to God himself. God brought Gurbani to this world to save us. Religious/spiritual/human rules do NOT apply to God.

As a non-Sikh, I guess who can ask as many questions as you want. But just remember bro, some people on this forum consider Lord Guru Nanak as a parent. As you wouldn't like anyone to ask detailed private questions about your parent's life, similarly you should be mindful. Rest is up to you.

Take care

@ Ragmaala

Thanks brother. I am quit logically minded. I'm studying comparative theology so I guess I have to be logical. I ask questions that challenge certain concepts or beliefs to try and get a better understanding. I'm just trained like this. Anyone who has studied theology/philosophy in the west will be familiar with this.

I do this on all religions, on their own forums - with concepts I'm not sure about - not just Sikhism. It's just Sikhism was on my lists of religions I needed to know more about. (Got a few left)

Your right, I don't think you'll be able to answer my questions logically. I'm thinking of maybe to disconnecting from this account and just read some more books by Sikh academics.

You said for example: Guru Har Krishan needed an excuse to leave this world. That only raises more questions in my head. Why would a Guru or God in Guru form, need to come into the body of a 5 year old child only to "need an excuse" to leave 2 years later (via smallpox) in order only to come again as another Guru. Why not just go to Guru Teg Bahadur to begin with.

​You'll obviously say we can't know this logically, this is either Leela from God or something we cannot understand. which I respect.

​As a non Sikh I don't believe in the Guru's being divine, or inspired by God. Although I admire the message from Guru Gobin Singh very much. I see this historically and logically as maybe political decisions in which the Gurus were chosen, hence some of the internal problems that arose then and after within Sikhism.

I was simply trying to understand how Sikhs themselves view things about the Gurus and and their belief in God. This thread however opened something new for me. Immaculate births of the Guru's - never heard of that before. or then the questions that raises on their children. Still would like to have some scriptural proof if there is any, if I cite this in an essay then I can't say MrSingh101 from Sikh-awareness said so.

Thanks anyway brother, much appreciated.

Bro, one cannot explain all concepts in religion by logical or scientific reasoning. Modern technology such as cell phones, computers, cloning, Wi-Fi, etc would have been considered, most likely as myths by even the most intelligent/scientific people of the 16th or 17th century. That is why as Sikhs, we blindly follow our Satgurus as they are the incarnations of GOD.

I think we should stay on the topic. Some of the answers to your questions will be in a different post.

Take care

The bit about eating meat is wrong for a start. Jhatka has been used for a long time.

Consuming weed for recreational purposes like spliff-heads do today is wrong, but to fail to acknowledge that some of our ancestors did it during periods of intense warfare (that we can only imagine today) is being false. Then we have the whole issue regarding emerging evidence that compounds in cannabis could actually be potent cancer cures. Are you saying that a Sikh with cancer (or multiple sclerosis) shouldn't take cannabis derived medications to survive?

What about the fact that if you are going to undergo serious surgery today, you'd more than likely be sedated using an opiate based anesthetic like morphine - derived from what we'd call afeem today in in India.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Jhatka was used by Sikhs in olden times as a means of SURVIVAL and for doing mercy towards the animals. No one should ever deny that it was a tradition in the Khalsa panth. Similarly, weed was used by Singhs as a medicine, not for PLEASURE.

Similarly, when we go for a surgery, any anesthetic taken or procedure performed (such as shaving hair, etc) is done for survival not for PLEASURE. The intention is the key.

It would be very hard for a person to rise spiritually, if he consumes meat.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Please correct me bro, if I am wrong.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

The bit about eating meat is wrong for a start. Jhatka has been used for a long time.

Consuming weed for recreational purposes like spliff-heads do today is wrong, but to fail to acknowledge that some of our ancestors did it during periods of intense warfare (that we can only imagine today) is being false. Then we have the whole issue regarding emerging evidence that compounds in cannabis could actually be potent cancer cures. Are you saying that a Sikh with cancer (or multiple sclerosis) shouldn't take cannabis derived medications to survive?

What about the fact that if you are going to undergo serious surgery today, you'd more than likely be sedated using an opiate based anesthetic like morphine - derived from what we'd call afeem today in in India.

Bro, let's stay on the original topic. My point was that, we cannot ALWAYS use science to prove Gurmat.

Answers to your questions in a different post.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Ummm exercise depletes energy too... I guess that is my excuse to not exercise anymore then?? Of course it depletes energy... it burns calories too! And it's good for cardiovascular health!

Please show me where it says semen retention boots immune system etc? In actual scientific credited research...

I can show you where it says the opposite actually... and anyway you only mentioned semen retention and not sex itself. And even then, only what pertains to men... Scientific research shows that regular sex prevents prostrate cancer in men btw.

Have a read of the article posted by N30 S!NGH as its very interesting and puts it in perspective. Either end of the scale is bad... The Gurus never taught abstinence. They themselves had wives after all! Both extremes are bad... no sex is bad and too much is bad. But with your own spouse in a monogamous marriage it is fine.

Some more evidence regarding the benefits of semen retention.

"

The semen is a viscid albuminous fluid, alkaline in reaction, which is very rich in calcium and phosphorus, also in lecithin, cholesterol, albumen, nucleoproteins, iron, vitamin E, etc. In the ejaculation of the normal man, about 226 million spermatozoa are given off; these are rich in phosphorized fats (lecithin), cholesterol (the parent-source of sex hormones), nucleoproteins and iron. An ounce of semen is considered to be equal in value to sixty ounces of blood, of which it constitutes an extract of some of its most valuable of constituents, as far as its vitalizing power is concerned. Dr. Frederick McCann remarks on this point, "From what has been stated it must be admitted that the spermatic fluid does possess potentialities justifying the belief of ancient writers concerning its vital properties."

The semen contains substances of high physiological value, especially in relation to the nutrition of the brain and nervous system. If resorption of semen through the wall of the female genital tract has a vitalizing effect on the female organism, the same should be the case in the body of the male in which it is formed and conserved. And conversely, loss of semen must deprive the organism of vitality and valuable substances necessary for the nutrition of nervous tissue, such as lecithin, which has been used therapeutically with great success for the cure of neurasthenia resulting from sexual excess. - Raymond W. Bernard MD

" [1] - http://sacred-sex.org/facts/articles/231-semen-retention.html

"

Eminent doctors of the West say that various kinds of diseases arise from the loss of semen, particularly in young age. There appear boils on the body, acne or eruptions on the face, blue lines around the eyes, absence of beard, sunken eyes, pale face with anaemia, loss of memory, loss of eye-sight, shortsightedness, discharge of semen along with urine, enlargement of the testes, pain in the testes, debility, drowsiness, laziness, gloominess, palpitation of the heart, dyspnoea or difficulty in breathing, phthisis, pain in the back, loins, head and joints, weak kidneys, passing urine in sleep, fickle-mindedness, lack of thinking power, bad dreams, wet dreams and restlessness of mind.

" [2] - http://sacred-sex.org/scriptures/hinduism/27-sivananda-effects-of-sexual-indulgence.html

Also, regarding Prostate cancer, frequent sex is also a cause of it. Please read below.

" According to a new research out of the UK, men who have frequent sex in their twenties and thirties were at a greater risk of developing prostate cancer later in life" [3]

[3] - http://www.mensfitness.com/training/give-thing-rest

Sister, we can keep debating on this issue for a long time but I don't think it's worth the time. Even according to modern science, drinking alcohol, consuming weed, eating meat and masturbation, IF done in moderation are good for health. But for Sikhs, all these are taboos. We need to remember that Gurmat is NOT dependent on science. Gurmat is the most advanced science.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

On 4/9/2015 at 11:49 PM, Ragmaala said:

People . First of all dont use gurus as examples to justify ur own selfish bodily needs and cravings.

Truthseeker you are basically saying Guru Gobind Singh Ji seeked bodily pleasure? You need to understand what a Guru is.

What you are saying is very offensive.

Guru is beyond the body. He is sargun form of Nirankar.

If he can create billions of galaxies in a blink of eye do you think it is impossible for Guru to create life in a mothers womb without engaging in vishe vikaar? Shame on those who think that gurus were involved in sex.

Baba Nand Singh said Guru Nanak didnt engage in vishe vikar. And those who say so are damned.

May their tongues be cursed who compare gurus to human beings.

People. No one is asking you to stop having sex. Do whatever you want. Make babies and have pleasure. But dont say that my father Guru wanted bodily pleasure thus had many wives. And also guru didnt have sex. They have the power to do anything.

Good points Singh Sahib.

Please have a look at the topic below.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

paapiman, you keep saying that 'sex' is bad for the body? Can you show some scientific evidence for this? Because I can show scientific evidence for the opposite.

Evidence shows that the physical pleasure of sex is only a small part of the benefit. There is evidence which suggests that regularly, it helps the body's immune system, lowers blood pressure, burns calories, lowers heart attack risk, lessens chronic pain, and actually helps prevention of prostate cancer in men and breast cancer in women. It also releases stress, and improves sleep. In addition to the physical health benefits, the hormones produced actually help the couple bond emotionally as husband and wife.

It's great you asked this question. Semen Retention has numerous benefits for the human body. Some of these I have pasted below.

"

Physical

• increased energy and drive
• boosted immune system
• cures erectile dysfunction
• prevents premature ejaculation

Mental

• more confidence
• improved memory
• more decisive

Spiritual

• calmer and less prone to anger
• more connected to spiritual nature
• control over material urges

" [1] - http://authentictantra.com/tantra-blog/semen-retention-and-how-it-will-change-your-life/

There are possibly many more benefits. But the above should be enough to prove that sex is bad for health.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

That statement in an of itself is suggesting that Singh sees her as inferior but will tell her he is inferior just to make her feel better... Women do not need men to feel sorry for them... that only reiterates the idea that they are inferior!

I meant that a Singh will consider himself inferior to all other people (male or female) because of utter humility taught to us by Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj.

Sister, I beg you, please do take amrit from wherever you feel like.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

So basically you think all Sikhs of Satguru Ji should belive that women are inferior to men and should be restricted from having the same freedoms that men have? Why do you think this is? Is being born female a punishment then? I think it's more likely that the reasoning their views were all the similar is that they were all sexist, having their minds deluded by the societal customs of the times, and they disregarded the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji on gender equality.

This thinking has kept women oppressed for ages. If this is what Sikhi truly is (or was supposed to be) I need to reconsider whether or not it is the true path. Thank you for opening my eyes to the fact that so many Singhs see us as inferior. Because of this I may choose not to take Amrit at all, and maybe I made a mistake by following Sikhi.

Sister, I am not in favor of considering all women as inferior. But, you need to follow the maryada made by God. Women have certain capabilities which men don't have and I agree with it. Sikhism did a lot to uplift women, but still there are certain restrictions.

A Singh will consider himself inferior to a woman (due to utter humility) and not superior.

Even if you consider yourself equal to your husband, I don't think it is a bad thing to do as long as you remain faithful to him and love him.

Also, I would request you at your feet to take Amrit as it is a precious item which is gained by huge grace of Satguru jee. If I said anything which hurt your feelings, please forgive me (I am a big idiot) but don't leave Sikhi.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Except I follow Sikh Rehet Maryada... It follows closest to what is actually in SGGSJ. Which I believe I have shown above that you have quoted. I am not DDT and not Nanaksar... I have not taken Amrit yet, but if I do it with ANY jatha, it would be AKJ.

You can take amrit from anywhere as long as the Singhs who are part of the Panj Pyaray have high spiritual levels. There is currently NO one Sikh Rehat Maryada. The so-called Sikh Rehat Maryada has not been accepted by the panth.

Again, like others, you are parroting certain RMs and not supporting the reasons why with actual Gurbani. Instead of just being another sheep, we should use the brain given to us by Waheguru and go to the ONE source of information we CAN trust as authentic... and that's our only living Guru... Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

If you read the DDT RM, there is more than enough Gurbani in it, to make it understandable to an ordinary person like me.

Those specific RMs you mention are VERY sexist, and I will not 'just accept' them. First of all, there is no proof that they have been unaltered at some point, and second, that they were written taking in to account the actual teachings of the Gurus. I have shown in the Chaupa Singh Rhetnama recently, how there are inconsistencies, which point to very Brahministic thinking.... like waking at dawn and saluting the Sun with 'Namaste'. (only one example there are others), and low and behold.... what was Chaupa Singh's background??? Brahmin! So it's no surprise that his rhetnama contains instructions such that women should behold their husband as 'God' and he restricts women from nearly everything. And even the wording is almost identical to what is written in Hindu scripture! Mere coincidence I think not!

I think you should show respect towards Bhai saab Bhai Chaupa Singh jee as he was a great Sikh of tenth master. What is wrong in doing namastay to Sooraj Devta? Bhai Saab jee did not say to worship it. Namastay is used to greet and show respect to someone. Without Sun, there would be no life on Earth. It is a great creation of Satguru jee.

DDT RM was written by Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa. Neither he nor Srimaan Baba Deep Singh jee Shaheed or Srimaan Baba Mani Singh jee Shaheed (founders of DDT) were born into Brahmin families. The reason, their thinking matches is because they are ALL SIKHS of Satguru jee.

And... I will NEVER serve a man as 'God'. Why should he be above me? We are both here on the same journey... shouldnt we serve each other equally? Or... maybe being born as a woman is somehow a punishment? Maybe we have to be reborn in a male 'joon' before we can merge back with God??? That idea has been thrown around too... also very Brahministic thinking which has no backing in SGGSJ.

You can follow whatever you want. If you don't want to follow the orthodox sects (DDT, Nanaksar, Nihang, Sevapanthi, Nirmalay, etc), you can follow sects/cults which came later into the panth. It is NO surprise that all the sects which trace back their roots to the tenth master have more or less, the same kind of thinking. Just for example, Keski is NOT considered as a Kakaar by any orthodox sect of Sikhism and suddenly after more than 100 years of the creation of Khalsa, it becomes a Kakaar.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh