paapiman

he can be a part of khalsa panth but cant marry another guy thats the price you pay

however i heard someone say that even in veda's the homosexuality is shown as disease , its related with how brain confuses same same with oposite sex with smell

i still have to search vedas for that

Interesting stuff. Please do let us know, if you figure out more details.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I really hoped gyani from DDT talk about this subject more deeply and get right to essence of gurmat in way its not black and white and it make sense.

Anything that binds or confine your real self- pure consciousness/awareness is sin (be it good or bad actions), since our real self pure achal(motionless) pure awareness express itself quite spontaneously effortless its unconfined flow expressing itself via its creation always in motion in this world unconditioned unconfined.

From absolute truth perspective, its IKoankar One non dual pure jot(knowledge)/awareness being fully nirlaip-de-attached not confined yet fully expereincing itself via its creation, expressing itself in movement - creating, preserving and changing creation, expressing itself without any agenda, sponteounsly effortlessly choicelessly.

Here is sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj says- akaal purkh- sat himself is enjoyer- bhugtaie.

Chattra Chakkra Vartee, Chattra Chakkra Bhugatay, Suyambhav Subhang Sarab Daa Saraab Jugatay.

Dukaalan Pranasee, Diaalang Saroopay, Sadaa Ang Sangay, Abhangang Bibhutaay

You are pervading in all the four directions, the Enjoyer in all the four directions. You are self-illumined, profoundly beautiful, and united with all. Destroyer of the torments of birth and death, embodiment of mercy. You are ever within us. You are the everlasting giver of indestructible power.

But from relative reality since everyone of us are stuck in relative reality-maya- bhogi-enjoyer, bhog- enjoyment is all maya, we are subjected to five vices, karams, reincarnation, hell, heaven etc.

So its matter of pure enlightened realized perception, one needs to get rid of egoic conditioned mindset/ doership let truth-gurbani shallow them alive- merged them in jevan mukht (ekta of nirgun and sargun state) then only through full embodiment of absolute-truth one can engage in relative realities without getting caught up because then one is god realized--bhramgyani which sees everything with pure perception/with realization of absolute truth as gurbani states-

Chattra Chakkra Vartee, Chattra Chakkra Bhugatay, Suyambhav Subhang Sarab Daa Saraab Jugatay.

Dukaalan Pranasee, Diaalang Saroopay, Sadaa Ang Sangay, Abhangang Bibhutaay

You are pervading in all the four directions, the Enjoyer in all the four directions. You are self-illumined, profoundly beautiful, and united with all. Destroyer of the torments of birth and death, embodiment of mercy. You are ever within us. You are the everlasting giver of indestructible power.

Bro, I think you are at a very high level as compared to a wild animal like me.

Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj.

kabal hukam nama ,

patshahi dasvi

partangami nahi hona

Dont be gay

same has been translated by Prof satbir singh

it is also considered as a very huge bujar kureith

Singh saab, I don't think being gay or not is within a person's hand. I guess the Hukamnama is saying that don't indulge in a sexual manner with the same sex, which is a bujjar kurehit. If a person is gay by birth, he can be part of the Khalsa Panth as long as refrains from any sexual activity with the same sex. We need to make sure that Gays and Lesbians are not discriminated in Sikhism as the doors of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj are open to all.

Please do clarify.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

So sex is forbidden for any married couple past child bearing age? Or if the wife due to medical reasons has had a hysterectomy? Should they only then remain friends and never get married? If someone is past childbearing age, are they doomed to follow rest of this journey of life alone?

I thought I read in dasam granth that sex with one's own spouse is fine... even if its for bonding (there is proof that emotional bonding occurs during sex, even if not for procreation) bringing spouses closer together. But then Guru Ji goes on to say do not even in your dreams go to the bed of another... so to me its saying with spouse is fine (within reason outside of lust and attachment) to be close to each other and bond. It is said that during sex, even spiritual energy merges between the two... which kind of follows suit with anand karaj... blissful union. But that it is wrong to even dream of going into the bed of another.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

There is no doubt that in Gurmat, sex for pleasure is a sin. I talked to a Gurmukh from DDT about this matter and he agreed with my opinion. In my opinion, sex for pleasure with wife is a SIN but can be easily forgiven by Satguru jee as Maharaaj understands that Kaam is a very strong force. On the other hand, any other sexual activity with anyone else other than your spouse (belonging to opposite sex) is a cardinal sin.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Bhaji Sikhs do not hate Hindi or any other language. If there has been any resistance against Hindi, it has been where Hindi has been attempted to be foisted upon the Panjabi speaking people of Panjab.

Bro, I have come across some Sikhs who look down upon Hindi and that is why I started this post. Such people don't realize that Hindi is one of our own languages, used extensively by Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee Maharaaj (Braj Bhasha is a dialect of Hindi).

Obviously, forcing any language on anyone is against Gurmat. But my point is that Gurmat/Sikhism should not be connected to Punjabi in such a way, so as to portray that Punjabi is the only or main language for us. Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj is unique as it has many languages in it, which all become very dear to Sikhs.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

kabal hukam nama ,

patshahi dasvi

partangami nahi hona

Dont be gay

same has been translated by Prof satbir singh

it is also considered as a very huge bujar kureith

Thanks a lot mate for the information.

Also bro, do you know if tenth master has mentioned about gays and lesbians in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

All languages are worthy of respect. though, even with the above, I don't believe hindi should be given more reverence than any other language used in the Guru's baani (Aad, Dasam, Sarbloh). But you are right, I mean, it's a bit silly hating a language

Singh Saab, you are right that all languages should be respected, but the ones which are used in Gurbanee such as Punjabi, Sanskrit, Hindi, Persian, Marathi, Urdu, Arabic, etc will obviously be more dear to us than other languages. As you correctly said that Hindi should not be given more reverence than any other language; in the same way Punjabi should also NOT be considered any superior to other languages used by our Satguru. If Satguru wanted, he could have written all Gurbanee in Punjabi, but he did not. For us, our script GURUMUKHI, should be considered the best.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Your argument that marriage's main function is to procreate does make some sense. However, I do not think that a marriage without procreation is illegitimate.

If procreation were to be the primary requirement for accepting a marriage, then shouldn't Sikhs ban heterosexual marriages where:

- One or both of the partners are past the child bearing age?

- One or both of the partners had a medical sterilization procedure?

- Couple has decided not to have children?

How much of the procreation responsibility do we have to exercise to make a marriage legitimate? An average healthy couple who chose to have two children over a twenty year of child bearing period planned to procreate less than once in every thousand times they chose to have sex. Are we same as homosexuals 99.9% of the time when we have sex knowing full well that we are doing so not to procreate?

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

in many religon homosexuality is a sin what sikhi veiw on homosexuality ?

Having said the above, there is no discrimination against gay people in Sikhism. The doors of the king (SATGURU SRI GURU NANAK DEV JEE MAHARAAJ) are open to all.

Take care.

I'm from the USA but I live in Europe.

I am laying a lot of stress on it because it is very important to me. I would not be able to accept a religion which teaches that homosexuality is somehow wrong. So, is it the only yardstick, no, not at all. Is it a crucial one for me? Yes it is.

Having said the above, there is no discrimination against gay people in Sikhism. The doors of the king (LORD GURU NANAK DEV) are open to all.

Take care.

In the GRM there exists some satatments that are very hard to justify as anything but sexist. I would like someone to please clarify because some of you delcare that the GRM is THE RM of Guru Ji, and that it is infallible. You also state that women are not excluded from anything except Panj Pyare (that they are free to participate equally in every other seva and that women are seen as equals by Damdami Taksal) but statements like the ones I am about to post paint an entirely different picture. Not only is it not only Panj Pyare that specifically states 'Singhs' other positions of authority - all of them (Granthi, Akhand Paath etc.) - also state 'Singh' so therefore using the reasoning that Panj can not be women because it says 'Singhs' means you also have to restrict women from nearly every other seva as well.

It's not just in the context of Panj Pyare that states 'Singh' in GRM. Therefore, contradictory to what some of you have stated about DDT treating women as equals aside from Panj Pyare seva, women are actually restricted from almost ALL seva by DDT:

Quoted directly from DDT's OWN website, and their OWN copy of Gurmat Rehet Maryada...

Women can not prepare Karah Prashad, or recite Anand Sahib:

" Two highly disciplined Singh’s should prepare Karah Parshad and bring it into the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee and then recite Anand SahibA prayer of bliss which was revealed by the 3rd Guru, Sri Guru Amar Das Jee "

Or act as Granthi:

"The Panj Pyare and Granthi Singh are to also clean their Kirpans and Karas with sand and then wash their GatrasKirpan holsters;"

...and it's not just Granthi for Amrit Sanchar either:

"After completing the verse, the Granthi Singh is to place the Rumala back over Sri Guru Granth Sahib."

Or birth ceremony:

"An Amritdhari Singh should get a Sarab Loh bowl and half fill it with water."

Or paathi during Akhand Paath:

"The Paathi Singhs are to wear clean clothing and must bathe before starting on their Paath seva."

Or Chaur Sahib Seva:

"One Singh is to do Chaur Sahib Seva whilst one is to go ahead of Satguru Jee…”

Or kirtan / Ragee.....even if there are no male Ragees:

"If Ragee Singhs cannot be found, then the Granthi Singh is to recite each Lav, place the Rumala over Guru Sahib and then recite "Satnam, Vaaheguroo" whilst the couple walk/circumbabulate around Guru Sahib."

^^^ THIS is why women are still unable to do kirtan at Sri Harmandir Sahib... the opposition was DDT and Sant Samaj. And THIS is why!!!!

Further reading of GRM brings to light some statements directly found within the Gurmat Rehet Maryada that outright states that women are beneath men:

GRM under heading Haraam – Adultery, sexual relationships outside of marriage:

"A Singh must look upon his wife as his faithful Singhni (follower). In the same manner a Singhni must look upon her husband as Parmeshwar (God)."

Damdami Taksal directly instructs women in the GRM to view their husbands as God, while the men view their wives as a faithful follower... a subordinate. She is not even instructed to simply view him as a leader in a family sense, but in a sense that his authority over her is the same as if he were God....or not even 'as if he were' but she is too look at him AS God!

Note: It has been suggested that this statement has some deep hidden meaning. However, Gurbani may contain metaphors and deeper meaning meant to be contemplated, but this is found in the GRM... Rehet Maryada is direct instruction to be followed! It is not meant to be some poetic and deep meaning, or else we could contest also the statement about Panj Pyares being 'Singhs' also being poetic! So if Rehet Maryada is a direct instruction, then it's clear what it is telling women to do.

Further investigation reveals more remarks in this light:

Here is another example… found in the GRM under the heading Fasting, where the entire meaning of the shabad in its original context has been ignored so that the exact opposite meaning of one tuk was misinterpreted to suggest that women should view their husbands as God. This I believe was the basis for the line I quoted above. However, when the entire shabad it was taken from is taken into context, it becomes apparent that the meaning was twisted to become something sexist.

Here is the correct translation - when taking into account the meaning of the FULL shabad in it’s entirety:

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥

is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||

In contrast here is DDT’s translation of the lines above:

(http://www.damdamitaksaal.org/26-code-of-conduct)

Directly written in GRM, found under the heading Fasts:

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

"Guru Jee says, she who looks upon Her Husband as the Lord, is blessed and has firm faith; great are

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥

those wives and they are received with honour in the Court of the Lord."

Damdami Taksal’s translation does not make sense when you take the entire shabad as a whole:

This entire shabad speaks out against the practice of satee by Hindu wives on their husband’s funeral pyre. The Shabad is suggesting that the wives do not become filled with so much attachment to their husbands that they kill themselves when their husbands die….That the true satee is in continuing to live through the loss and instead to see the Transcendent Lord as her husband (as we are all instructed to do as soul-brides).

Damdami Taksal are taking it way out of context, ignoring the full shabad, and then translating those two lines wrongly to mean the opposite of what they actually do! They take it to mean that wives should view their husband as the Lord (in other words suggesting the wife should submit to her husband and be subordinate to him as though he were God).

It makes absolutely no sense in the context of the entire shabad, and besides that it goes against what is written in Gurbani about equality, status of women, and the fact that the SAME divine light is within everyone, males and females equally! It also sounds to me like an attempt to Bhraminize Sikhi as this concept of women viewing men as God is seen in Hinduism (Mahabharata/Smriti: husbands are the highest diety of their wives) and also Islam for that matter (Quran: Muhammad makes statement that if he were to have anyone prostrate anyone else it would be the wives prostrating their husbands).

SGGSJ however, speaks to the equality of gender:

Page 1020, Line 15

ਆਪੇ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਾਰੀ ॥

You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female.

Page 96, Line 9

ਏਕੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਮਾਟੀ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈਆ ॥

There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.

Here is the full context of the shabad those lines were taken from so you can see the actual meaning:

ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਆਏ ਸੰਜੋਗ ॥

In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, they come together through destiny.

ਜਿਚਰੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਤਿਚਰੁ ਭੋਗਹਿ ਭੋਗ ॥੧॥

As long as the Lord commands, they enjoy their pleasures. ||1||

ਜਲੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਾਮ ਸਨੇਹੀ ॥

By burning oneself, the Beloved Lord is not obtained.

ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ਸਤੀ ਉਠਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Only by the actions of destiny does she rise up and burn herself, as a 'satee'. ||1||Pause||

ਦੇਖਾ ਦੇਖੀ ਮਨਹਠਿ ਜਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥

Imitating what she sees, with her stubborn mind-set, she goes into the fire.

ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਐ ॥੨॥

She does not obtain the Company of her Beloved Lord, and she wanders through countless incarnations. ||2||

ਸੀਲ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਾਨੈ ॥

With pure conduct and self-restraint, she surrenders to her Husband Lord's Will;

ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਜਮਾਨੈ ॥੩॥

that woman shall not suffer pain at the hands of the Messenger of Death. ||3||

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥

is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||

I believe inconsistencies like this are what are breeding the feelings that women should be beneath men in some sort of divine hierarchy as was suggested many times on this forum.

Remember this is written directly in the Gurmat Rehet Maryada that many of you are demanding that everyone take as THE rehet maryada of Guru Ji. How can it be THE Rehet Maryada of Guru Ji when it goes so far against his teachings of equality, and takes single tuks out of context of the shabad they are from to misinterpret them into something that instead of uplifting women like was originally intended (as easily seen when the entire shabad is read in its full context), it instead puts them in to subordinate position? So how can it be stated to be THE Rehet Maryada of Guru Ji and how can it be claimed to be infallible when inconsistencies like this are blatently apparent, just by viewing the full shabad?? (in ANY language, English, or Punjabi) the shabad itself is what gives the context!

Remember that the quotes above are from Damdami Taksal's OWN website, from their OWN copy of Gurmat Rehet Maryada!

Or how about THIS doosey of an inconsistency for you: Sant Jarnail Singh Ji stated he is against women in Panj, but he stated that women should be allowed all other seva. So he actually spoke AGAINST what is stated in Gurmat Rehet Maryada. If indeed DDT's GRM is THE RM directly from Guru Ji himself, then why would SANT Jarnail Singh Ji speak AGAINST it??? It's obviously clearly stated that only Singhs can do most of the seva right??

Can anyone please explain??

*ref - Sri Nanaksar Stairs to God

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Has anyone heard any saint or a scholar (belonging to the orthodox sects of Sikhism) explain the origin of the Rakhri festival? By orthodox, I mean Nihangs, Nirmalay, Udhasi, Sevapanthi, etc

Thanks.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I feel Like sharing a Information with the Sadh-Sangat, Dhass came to know about a Singh (Gupt) who was saved by Shaheed Singh | this event took place about 8 - 9 months ago, when the singh had an urge to go and visit Gurudwara Sahib Craigieburn Gurdawara Sahib, Australia, for Rainsabai, He was all alone, and it was late in Night, when he was walking from the Railway station towards Gurudwara Sahib (Its a 10 mins walk, but at Night its Pitch dark and lonely). It was then that the singh was doing Mool mantar Abhaas and was approached by a group of Thugs (Drunk and Drug addicts) in a car, these thugs threatened the Singh by racing their car towards him every now and then, when they noticed that the Singh is not minding them, they threatened to come out of their car with most likely sticks in their hands | The Singh then stood still, and said nothing, but continued the Abhaas of Mool mantar, when he saw the Thugs running away and shouting you have a Very Tall Turban || They raced their car away and Singh Knew it were the Shaheed Singh who came to save him | Akaaaaaaaaal hi Akaaaal !!!!

Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji | Dhan Guru ke Shaheed Singh

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Another similar incident mentioned below.

Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

wjkk wjkf

Can someone please provide me information regarding Laajvard and Raj Dev Lut, two demons who had darshan of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev G Maharaaj?

Thanks a lot.

wjkk wjkf

Thanks a lot.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh