Noor

I'd just like to say that Jamuka's first reply to this topic was neither hostile nor personal. It was only after he was 'threatened' with a warning did he reply in a more sarcastic tone. And rightly so. Why should he get a warning for stating his opinion about moneh Sikhs?

How many different erm 'types' (dont know what other word to use here) of Sikhs are there/can there be?

Why were posts deleted??

Alrite BabbarSher your right, I'm wrong. Happy?

I'm not gonna sit here and keep arguing about why I believe in inter-religion marriages being alrite. I dont have all the answers to your questions. All I know is that I have seen them work and I believe they can/do work. Between two very religious people they might not, but between others they do.

And maybe thats it... maybe I aint as religious as you.

Can someone define Sehajdhari please?

Noor, no one can tell you what you are or what you are not, and you especially do not need anyone's approval for doing what you wish to do with your own life.

If you dont want to take Amrit that is your choice and people should learn to accept and respect it. Similarly, if you want to marry a non-Sikh then other people shouldnt have a problem with that either. You make your own choices in life and you alone answer for them.

True.. but its sad isnt it, when you've identified yourself by a certain religion and then you have people of that same religion telling you that you dont belong. But man I stand by my views and if in the end theyre wrong then I'll have to answer for them, but I have enough faith in what I believe to do so.

This is because typical Punjabi mentality is such that it fools us all into thinking we are natural-born leaders. Many Sikhs seem to have been unable to ditch this trait. Instead, you get Sikhs always telling other people they are wrong and will fight over minor opinions and differences (You can find examples of this on this forum).

While people are too busy judging and criticizing other people they are completely oblivious to their own faults. You know what im talking about when i say no one will backchat against you more than another "Sikh", no one will try harder to compete against you than another "Sikh", and no one will be quicker to wash their hands of you than another "Sikh". (I put Sikh in inverted commas because these are Sikhs in name bt not substance)

There is very little unity among Sikhs anywhere in the World. You can see it in Sikh politics and you can see it in the way other Sikhs behave with you.

So true..and I honestly believe that if the amritdhari Sikhs would unite and recognize the other 'Sikhs' as also part of Sikhism.. and not divide it by 'oh I'm a real Sikh cuz I took amrit and your not even a Sikh cuz you havent' .. then Sikhi would really grow and you would have more people actually turning to it.

But no one wants to be a part of something where they aint wanted.

Ps, No one has bothered to address the issue about Noor's parents attitude regarding marriage to a "Jatt Sikh" only. First of all, there is no such thing as a "Jatt Sikh". Jatt is a caste, there is no belief in "castes" in Sikhism, therefore someone who identifies as a "Jatt" cannot be a Sikh at the same time. That would like be saying i dont believe in Allah but im a Muslim. Its just a huge contradiction.

Anyway, this "Jatt Sikh" thing is just another point that confirms Noor's comment about lack of unity among Sikh communities.

^ I believe that the 'jatt' issue doesnt matter as much to my parents personally as does the issue of what other Sikhs (society) may think if their daughter was to marry a non-jatt. They seem to care too much of what others will think, and it annoys me but I cant change anything.. can only make sure that when I have kids I dont do the same thing.

Id say follow Sikhism or at least learn from it and try to apply its teachings to your everyday life. That doesnt mean blindly conform to and follow things you dont agree or believe in but im sure there is alot in the religion you can learn from.

Just because some random Sikhs on the internet want to disown you doesnt mean that you should disown Sikhism.

No way am I giving up Sikhi just because other people think I dont belong. It just puts me off talking to them, but of course I wouldnt give up my beliefs because of a few comments.

Keep in mind that there are members here who have been born and brought up in large Sikh communities in England or Canada where they have lived their whole life. From reading the posts of certain people it is easy to tell that they know little or nothing about life outside that small patch of earth they exist on. These are the ones who are most unwilling to accept a difference of opinion and think themselves as Noor-e-Jahan.

I think you can learn alot from people like Niranjana and lalleshvari. I dont know where they live but i assume they are like me and live in a place where there are literally no other Sikhs, so have been spared from all this petty judgmental, caste, two-faced, double standards, sheep mentality crap.

The Admin is another good guy.

See thats the thing. Where I live there are loads of Sikhs.. but none of them have ever told me that I'm not a Sikh. But according to members of this forum, I dont think they would qualify to be called Sikhs because only half of them are amritdhari. And you know what the funniest thing is, an amritdhari Sikh looking down on you and then next contradicting his whole belief by making a comment that supports the caste system. :roll:

I dont know who the Niranjana guy is :? ..but I like yours and Lalleshvari's views. Theyre quite similar to mine.

I aint stopping you from posting your views am I now. :roll: Its such a shame that some people are so closed minded and go around making judgements on others when really they have no right to judge. I could make quite a few comments of what I think of such people, but naw allow it :roll:

And I dont know how many times I have to make it clear that this isnt bout me and some non-Sikh guy.

And bout all this crap that you guys are on about Sikh and non-Sikh marriages and the problems they lead to... well I'm telling you they work cuz I've seen them work. Marriage between a Muslim and a Sikh..it works... between a Catholic and a Sikh.. works. And the kids arent out of control. Theyre parents are actually more strict than most Sikh parents.

BabbarSher -

Can I ask you some question...ok What is the purpose of the life of a sikh ?

Secondly who do you think is a sikh?

Thirdly if ony Love is required to reach God, what is the need of a Guru...........what is the need to eb a sikh,................and why did Guru Ji start sikhism ...................?

I can tell you the answers from a Nirgura's view.. since I am not a Sikh .. u still want me to answer?

(and NO N30 Singh..u didnt offend me or put me down.. I do understand what your saying)

Sikhi is a SuperHighway and travelling on this Superhighway, you reach the city of the Khalsa ...whereafter you meet Waheguru.

Firstly I fully understand that you are not marrying a a non-sikh, as you had mentioned the same in one of yor earlier posts.

^Finally! ..thnx

Perhaps I have a possiveness about the gals of my religion :-)

^ Understandable

Secondly, I have tried to proove that inter religion marriages are not 'right', because of differences in religions on various respects.

I think it is true.

You say that you stand by what you say. Good. But can you please answer the issues and the possible solutions to what I said in my post?

^If the other person thinks just as you do, then where would the problem arise? And any that do, can be taken care of. Life is filled with problems and difficulties, do we back down from them? In one way or another we have to face them.

(Done give me the obvious answer ..that Love can transcend all barriers)

^ Love can. Afterall isnt it love for God that makes a Sikh able to stand up against any thing? That kind of love is hard to find these days. As far as that kind of love between two individuals is concerned, society's rules and demands has or eventually does kill it, but then again that just implies that it was weak to begin with.

Dont be disheartened, Mr.Singh's or my heart may be a bit small to accomodate a lot of people into Sikhi, but the Guru's and Waheguru's heart is very large.

I dont agree with the translation provided by Mr.Singh.

One cannot take Amrit by force, the feeling has to come from within.

^ Yeh completely agree with you there.

Continue on this path and evolve. Like I said, a sikh must continually evolve into a better person, and then he is a sikh, because he is learning the teachings of his Guru and acting on them.

Evolving is the key word here. A person may be a mona at birth, keep hair whne young and take amrit when he/she is 40. So does it make he/she a sikh. Definately does, cause they evolved.

^Agree

On the other hand a person may be born a kehsadhari, become a mona or remain like that. I dont think such a person qualifies to be a sikh.

^But we cant really judge now can we? Only God can judge because only He knows all.

Some people may take amrit but may keep believing in Bipran Ki Reet? What of them.....?? Nothing of them I would say... Nothing

^ Whats Bipran Ki Reet?

Various such permutations can combinations may be worked out and some may be very tricky situations. But in the end it is for the Guru to decide and for Waheguru to decide on the question if sikhi, who sits in every persons heart....we can only give pointers

In effect when we have read the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and have understood it, our conscience will ourselves give an answer, whether we are sikh or not. and belive me you cant fool your consicence.

^ very true

My suggestion as always is to read your Guru. Please dont treat Guru Granth Sahib as just a Holy Book. Guru Ji is our present and eternal Guru. Please have the same feelings for Guru Ji as you would for Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Do so and the Guru will guide you ...Please give it a try :-)

^ I have total respect for Guru Granth Sahib ji

N30 Singh ...Very Good :-) excellent explanation

There you go.. replied to it all.

CAn everyone do me a favour, and read above link provided ?

I've read it... and posted my opinion on it.

Noor ji, one simple question?

are you doing any of these prepare yourself spirtually for amrit, doing bhagti (meditation on god's mantra), doing seeva, reciting gurbani (remebering god) ?

If going to the gurdwara, praying, the only time i can think of actually doin sewa is twice every yr for 3 days each time.. for the past 8 yrs, going to the nagar keertan (not to socialize but for religious purposes), and learning more about sikhi count... then yes, I am spiritually growing.

But if it doesnt count for you all.. then forget this.

I dont drink, smoke, go clubbin, dont spread hate, dont believe in the caste system.. The only thing I probably do that you would disagree with is view people of all religions to be equal and the fact that I dont think marrying one of them is wrong.. oh and the other thing--> I havent taken amrit yet.

Funny thing is Muslims stand united even if some are very religious and others are just called Muslim because they were born into a Muslim home.. and here we have Sikhism (which is supposed to be more accepting) in which Sikhs are telling others who is and isnt a Sikh.

Well anywayz...

Each to his own --> I'll follow my beliefs and you to yours.

Good day

Noor, you do realise that the 10th Nanak was Guru Gobind Singh Ji and vica versa?

Yes

Therefore, you have to accept His teachings as well.

Have to accept? Since when did Sikhism become a religion where your forced to do things? And second of all, what makes you think I dont accept his teachings? Just because I dont agree with the marriage thing? Sorry but thats not gonna change, thats my personal belief and obviously now I can see theres no room in Sikhi for it.

His Hukam is to take Amrit, if you dont obey your Guru's Hukam, what does that make you? Figure it out yourself.

A non-Sikh? Your basically telling me I aint a Sikh. Alrite seen.

Atheists 'sprout up' because people are scared of committing to what they know is right. They make all sorts of apologies and excuses for it.

Scared of committing to God? Lol.. have you ever talked to a Sikh thats turned atheist? You make religion sound like something that needs to be forced into everyone's life.

There is no excuse for not taking Amrit, whatsoever.

I dont need an excuse. I just dont want to take amrit. When the day comes that I am ready spiritually to take it, I will.

No one is expecting you to take it and become an amazing Rehat-vali Singhani, it takes time, and you dont just break it with few minor mistakes. If you keep away from the Bujjar Kurehits, you still have a chance to repent and make amends.

What are 'Bujjar Kurehits' ?

You have no excuse not to take Amrit, bottom line.

So according to your above statement, a person should just take amrit wether they are ready for it or not. Because if they say they are not ready for it because of some reason, it just is an excuse right? I mean you would know yeh, because you can really tell whats going on with that person?

Once again, I want to remind the Sangat of a Sakhi of Baba Nand Singh Ji. A 'Sikh' asked Babaji, why should we take Amrit if our hearts are pure? Babaji said, was Guru Gobind Singh Ji's heart impure when they took Amrit from the Punj?

^ Works both ways.. vice versa.

Im sick of our Sikh sisters making a fuss about all these marriage issues when they cant even commit to being a Sikh and submitting to His Hukam.

I'm sorry but I did not find your post to be inspiring at all.

Hope you arent offended by any of my comments.. But you have to realise that not everyone is gonna view things from the same perspective.

I am trying to change my ways and trying to follow Sikhi.. but when I read or hear stuff like what you posted, it really puts me off .. and then I just want to carry on with practicing religion in my own way.

Can someone tell me wot AKJ is :?

N30 S!NGH - oh acha

I posted a couple of Santa/Banta jokes in the jokes folder and our moderator believes they constitute racism or have racist tendencies.

I have started a thread at http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=3774 to see what everybodys opinion here is on Santa/Banta jokes.

I dunno but I don't find them racist and mind you my grandfathers name was Banta Singh.

lol.. i see.. Santa/Banta jokes.. are they the ones bout sardars?

Those sardar jokes are a little too overdone.. I mean no one is as dumb as the sardar jokes imply....

sorry for goin off topic.. I'll go post in that topic :arrow:

I like Lalleshvari's views... seems like a very tolerant guy. Nuff respect to him.

^ Its k and no you didnt offend me. I think along the same lines.

BabbarSher - I just wanted to point out AGAIN that there isnt a non-sikh guy that I'm leaving Sikhism for :roll:

I was asking in general... and I understand all the points you've all made.. but I still stand by my belief of it being alrite

Mr Singh -

"From what i have read from you folks, that one is only considered a Sikh ONLY if he/she has taken Amrit. "

There is no doubt about it. There is a Bhaji Gurdas Ji's shabad that says that only he/she has the right to call him/herself a Sikh has taken Gurmatr from the Guru. As Sikhs, Gurmantr is given to us by 5 payare, and therefore, we have to take Amrit. That is Bhai Gurdas Ji's definition of a Sikh.

^ Its stuff like this that sometimes makes me wonder why I'm practicing Sikhi when I am not even considered a Sikh. But yet still I believe so it doesnt matter what people say, still gets to me once in a while tho.

Have any of you people that think this way, ever thought that when you make statements like the one that guy made above, it makes some people on the path of Sikhi want to turn away from it?

Then you wonder why there are atheists in Sikh families.

Right on Jamuka

can I ask why do u have a warning?

Noor, by all means, please marry someone of your choice.

You are right in saying that it doesnt matter what religon the other person is. Your religious beliefs should be kept private as they are personal to you. There is no need to throw them around in everyones face, even if other people are doing that themselves. WHy follow the heard? Be an individual and make your own choices..

I've read a few of your posts and agree with alot of what you say. I think you have the same liberal approach and outlook on life as i do.

Sikhism is not a revealed religion, and it does not need to be. Just be true to yourself and to others.

Totally agree with that.

Sad thing is that... I cant marry who I want. My family tho they are a bit open minded when it comes to the guys, wont let the girls marry anyone but "jatt" Sikhs. And me being someone who believes neither in the caste system nor in marrying ONLY into your own religion bit, is stuck without much choice.

But thnx for the above... Its nice to know that someone thinks on the same lines as me

CaNaDiAn_jAtTi .. thnx

Mr Singh.. yes that was a good response.

Lets see here Noor Ji,

Sikhi has principles. Principles are there for khalsa to follow. One of the principles for khalsa to follow is "get married with person who is gurmukh and has gurmantar given by paanj pyraiez and also took amrit from khanda bhatta da amrit".

Please do not change sikhi beleifs to suit your own beleifs. But try to change yourself.

So who do I marry then if I havent taken amrit? According to such strict principles I wouldnt be considered a Sikh. So where does that leave me? If I believe in Waheguru..believe in the ten gurus and go to the gurdwara.. but believe that people should be treated equally and religion shouldnt matter in marriage.. what does that make me?

I've been told by amritdhari Sikhs before too that I wouldnt be considered a Sikh.. but I say who gives them the right to tell me that.. just because they are more religious than me? But doesnt God reside in all of us.. after all he did create all of us ..

Noor Ji, do let us know about your married life with a non-sikh. Its beleif you choose. Not the guroo maharaj or rest of khalsa panth choose for you. Always remember that, being on this site. We should be careful about not changin rehat maryada or principles of khalsa panth to suit one's beleif though change our beleif's to suit the principles that our guroo maharaj choose for us.

Bhul Chuk maaf

Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal hiiiiiiiiii akaaaaaaaaaaal

anand hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii anand

I am not marrying a non-sikh :? . In fact I am not getting married to anyone as of now and not until a few years. I was discussing my views on the topic of marrying a non-sikh.. which i think is perfectly alrite.

wots Lalleshvari mean? :?

By being respectful and accepting of their beliefs

Like what would you do if tomorrow your son or daughter decides to follow a different religion..not because they are romantically involved with someone of that religion..but just because it appeals to them? I know you will say 'How can that be possible if I teach my kid everything about Sikhi? Why would anyone want to convert?"

But be realistic and you know it can happen. Your son could find Buddhism more appealing.. or maybe Islam because in certain ways its more man dominated.. wutever the religion may be.. wut to do then?

Each person should worry more about themselves following a path to God correctly rather than in which way another is doing it.. even if that person may be related to you

I mean doesnt it say in Sikhi that we shouldnt be too attached to material things and people in our lives because in the end none of it will go on with us.. we will go alone

So yes teach your children about Sikhi.. and hopefully they will follow it.. but theres nothing you can do if they dont..cept maybe pray that they change their ways

And thats why I believe it shouldnt matter if the person you marry is of a different religion.. you cant have a kid grow up in a religion.. the kid needs to believe it with his/her heart.. only then thru learning it on their own because they want to.. will they be following Sikhism

I know sum people from different parts of the world who were born as Sikhs but are now either atheist, converts, or claim to be Sikhs yet dont really follow it.

(Sorry for making that so long.. n if it went a lil off topic :? .. I love Sikhi..and am trying to follow it s best as I can... but I dont like hate amongst religions and division amongst ppl in any way just because of religion)

"Does it really matter, if it does?"

Course it matters.. if someone was a true Sikh then they wouldnt try to divide the world up even more than it already is... wasnt that one of the main purposes of Guru Nanak ji anyways? To get rid of the caste system.. that one is neither a hindu nor a muslim.. that we are all God's children

n then you have other Sikhs tellin u who u can and cannot marry..why? Because their of a different religion.. a different path to God.

To me thats contradicting earlier teachings.. and if its the direction in which Sikhism is heading, than Sikhism will be no different than Islam or any other religion... it will only divide.. not unite people.

and you think people of the Khalsa are always correct? They cant ever corrupt or change sumtin to suit their views?

Only Waheguru can judge.. and people..well even the religious can become corrupt.. unless u deny that?

I guess thats why I have a problem with the Rehats and Takhat.. I'd rather just follow Guru Granth Sahib ji

My uncle is married to a Muslim.. and they go to the gurdwara together...their kids go to the gurdwara

I see nothing wrong with Sikh and non-Sikh marriages. And I'm most certain that Guru Nanak ji, a man who taught people that there should be no discrimination amongst themselves, would not forbid a Sikh marrying a non-Sikh.

Politics and society has changed Sikhism into another 'us vs them' religion.

Why does Guru Gobind Singh ji forbid marrying non-Sikhs when Guru Nanak ji doesnt?

Same old answer... Political ? Whom we are really following SGGS or Politics... I wonder... ?

Well think bout it urself instead of listening to other people

I mean why is it that the Rehat Maryada is completely contradicting the first guru, the founder of all this, Guru Nanak ji's teachings?

If all 10 gurus were all "in touch" with God.. then how did the message change with time?

Politics.

Infernal Monk - I think Guru Nanak ji did know about Christianity and Jewism ( I could be wrong tho)

But if Guru Granth Sahib is supposed to be all we are to follow.. then why does the Akal Takhat get to add to it?

How would one control them? By conquering their desires?