MrDoaba
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6 hours ago, paapiman said:
Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj had rejected this ritual of parikarma around the fire before his marriage, as Agni dev is not our Isht dev. Instead, Maharaaj wrote down the Mool mantar on a piece of paper, placed it on a seat and then did parikarma with Mata Sulakhni jee.
Most likely, Sehajdhari Sikhs of the past used fire for parikaram.
Bhul chuk maaf
Yeah I've heard this sakhi many times before. How historically accurate is it though? My thinking is this: If Guru Nanak Dev Ji had rejected such a big ceremony of the time, surely they would have created an alternative at the time. Logically speaking, it wouldn't have made sense for people to wait until 4th Guru Sahib to compose and solidify the actual ceremony which was to be followed?
You say Sehajdhari Sikhs most likely continued to use fire, do you mean the whole Vedic ceremony? Or a modified version of it?
After the Laavan were written, did whole Sikh Qaum flock to see Guru Sahib to have their Anand Kaaraj done? I'm thinking about the logistics here.
6 hours ago, paapiman said:Well, Sikhs could have written Gurbani on a piece of paper and circumambulated around it.
Anyways, you have brought up good points which need to be researched.
Bhul chuk maaf
True it's possible, but given the level of Satkaar people would have had for Gurbani in those days (compared to now), I doubt they would be going around writing it on pieces of paper. It's hard to look after one sheet of paper, let alone one that has Gurbani on it. More so given the conditions at the time.
Do you know any Namdharis? They might be able to provide some insight.
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41 minutes ago, sarabatam said:
Good discussion all around, all views are welcome here even polar opposite ones.
Main crux here is Sri guru granth sahib ji is our Ishat Dev Guru not Agni. Objectification of Sri guru granth sahib ensues bhagti results in one of five types of mukti which is parvan in gurmat.
What does objectification of fire ensues ? Not much except if you are really esoteric knows essence(tat) of fire and really into vedant
Thanks bro.
True but is the fire seen as Agni Dev in a Sikh Havan, or just a mere symbolic fire? Would we need to see it through Vedant lens? Why can't it take on a new meaning altogether in Sikhi marg?
I understand that SGGS is our Isht Dev, but walking around a fire with the Laavan being read would have the same result, no? The message behind it would essentially be the same, just a different medium.
Let's just say I've got the wrong end of the stick for a second, how were marriage ceremonies performed in the old days, and I mean after the Laavan were composed?
31 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:Baba Deep Singh was the leader of the Misal Shaheedan, He was born near the town of Jalandar at Dukohe, and was a Sandhu Jatt.
Baba Ji organized an Akhand Paat and completed a Havan [before heading towards the battle] and tied a wedding bracelet around his wrist [a preparation for martyrdom as death is seen as a merging with their beloved Lord]
Doaba I see. Interesting. Doaba is home to the original Nihang...I just may have found my calling.
Jokes aside, bro Kira says this is metephorical Havan. I'm 50/50 on this, leaning towards it being an actual one. Care to shed some light? Are there any other examples of metephorical Havans in any other texts?
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47 minutes ago, sarabatam said:
To be honest, don't think normal mass are receptive towards esoteric fire symbolism. I would say only rare individuals have dhian birthi of sargun/nirgun in same breath/flow or moment. Lot of us are caught up or stuck in pointers rather whats pointer pointing towards.
Due to maya, our senses are drawn towards objectification. Ultimately, since our dharam is gurmat advait marg - over objectification of sargun is not encouraged . I agree with bhai vir singh positions on over exaggeration worship of sargun rituals as many have fallen into.
Good point. But my response to that would be SGGS is just as esoteric then. Many people have little or no understanding themselves really, and when prompted to put forth their views on who/what the central figure in Sikhi is and or the significance, it's just repeating things verbatim. Would you not say that's objectification?
Tbh, the whole idea of circumambulation is moot if we are to go by this logic. I'm firmly of the view that too much symbolic ritualism has been done away with in Sikhi. It's become a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
A good point to make would be Namdharis; they don't do phere around their Baba even though they consider him to be Guru and final authority. I don't believe they technically worship the fire in the Vedic sense either or see it as a manifestation of their Baba. Then again I'm not Namdhari so I can't state these points as facts but it's something to ponder over nonetheless.
Btw thanks for letting me freely air my views here, even if we disagree somewhat - had I posted this on SS I would have been attacked no end, it probably would have broken the internet.
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17 minutes ago, sarabatam said:
I remember talking to sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale about this. Whilst he never downplayed havan ritual itself -udasi and nirmale do with gurbani mantras. He did mentioned In our tradition, havan is practical instead of offering havan /fire to deities instead fire is used in langar to cook and gurbani is reciten.
Now thats practical.
I see what you mean here. I have heard that mentioned in Katha before. But I'm thinking on a practical level too - in the days of old there were not hundreds of Saroops in circulation, and before that it would have been inefficient for the masses to do Laavan around the human form of Guru Sahiban. The only option would have been fire as it was both familiar to majority of Sikhs and symbolically makes sense - the fire is Parmaatma and the bride and groom make rounds, symbolising making a promise by circumambulating, around the symbolic Parmaatma that they will work together to merge with Him.
As I see it, it wasn't the holy fire that was the problem rather it was the significance behind the Vedic ceremony that was not in line with Gurmat. The Havan wouldn't be considered to be accepting offerings as such. E.g. some Gurdwaras have 24/7 jyot, nothing to do with light or purifying the air. The Janeu became the gatra etc, I'm sure you can see where I'm going.
Symbolism and symbolic practise play a role in Sikhi contrary to what many think.
I could be wrong as I'm just speculating.
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I have heard that when one does a Jaap for someone else's benefit, the initial problem can be transferred to the one doing the Jaap.
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On 08/04/2017 at 11:17 PM, paapiman said:
Sikh Havans are different from Hindu Havans.
Bro do you think Sikhs had Havan at the time of Anand Kaaraj in the past, i.e. do you think they walked around the holy fire instead of SGGS?
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6 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:
He already started the jaap doing it at amritvela. Is he gonna die now?
The opinions expressed earlier are not the sole view of Mr Doaba or his affiliates.
Mr Doaba and the people of Doaba shall take no responsibility for any loss of life incurred.
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48 minutes ago, sarabatam said:
Anyone have bikrami sikh calendar 2018? Please post it here
Here's one going around, it's for phone only though:
http://www.gurmatparchar.com/#/calendar/4573228116
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4 minutes ago, Kaur Inder said:
those who actually want to get high on it (when they don’t need it) they just do it and justify it on the name of god
These people aren't really interested in God to begin with, so shado pare.
Those who have pyaar for Sikhi know the what, when, where.
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4 minutes ago, Kaur Inder said:
I wasn’t comparing the two at all. I was just giving u an example like how desperate some of the youth are to get just high on something so they are going for cough syrups..
I see what you mean phenji. I would have to disagree though. It's not out of desperaration at all - people laugh when they hear the words 'cough syrup' but it as legitimate high as other drugs. It used to be very easy to get it in the UK at one point but they realised people were using it recreationally and so it was given controlled drug status. In the simplest terms codiene is just a weaker version of morphine which in turn is used to make heroin.
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2 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:
Hopefully i cleared some stuff up. If you are still confused i would love to help you 🙂
I need samples to make my mind up.
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29 minutes ago, Kaur Inder said:
i would like to tell u this now as u wrote this. Before my transformation and before like who I’m now and what kind of person I was before.. so I use to consume weed before and use to love it a lot so I know it’s effects..
Just exactly how badmaash are you? Lol only joking, I've done it in the past too, partly why I mentioned it. See for me I would never be able to use it for Bhagti/Simran, I wouldn't be able to concentrate at all. Albeit I can see how some people would be able to. I'd also probably eventually burst out laughing at the fact that I'm repeating the same thing baar baar (or something along those lines lol).
The thing is though, it's not mandatory to use it, nobody has to. And those who use it genuinely, do so knowing its effects, knowing how to handle it, and knowing how to use it correctly.
You're right in saying that it is susceptible to abuse. That's why there's a Maryada for it. Real Nihangs don't use it all day everyday. A point to note is that the amounts of cannabis used differ - those who use it everyday surely do not use loads otherwise they would be on the outskirts of Swarg 24/7.
Use of Sukha is not for everyday aam janta. Or regular Sikh. However, some kattarvadi's could certainly use a glass or two of it, they need to loosen up.
Lastly, we shouldn't interfere in Samparda Maryada. They are not trying to get the whole Panth to start using it.
-Edit- cough syrup isn't a good comparison, because it's both physically AND psychologically addictive. Cannabis can be addictive too but usually only psychologically. Codiene is strictly controlled in the West for the most part.
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2 minutes ago, Kaur Inder said:
Thanks for this explanation and for ur time. But I don’t know why I can’t agree with this. I can understand the part where back in days Singh’s needed something to relieve their pains as they use to fight and do Jungs and whatever u mentioned that’s fine but that was something needed at THAT time.. but we don’t need all that at this present moment so just because it was used at those times people keep doing it today where they don’t even need it and thn they bring up with all these like u quoted and mentioned Guru Ji and shiv ji thn we just keep our mouth shut because obviously we don’t know the actual truth and don’t have the right knowledge about all this to speak against it.. And as u mentioned that it’s consumption helps focus more on gods true name This is something I can NEVER agree with.. what kind of remembrance that would be in which we need to take help of a drug, doesn’t matter if it’s natural or whatever.. it still is a drug.. And I don’t think it’s about narrow mindedness it’s about doing what’s right and going with a better option... yes I know it’s natural and more safer drug and it helps in making u feel relaxed but that doesn’t mean we HAVE TO do what they needed to do at those times.. thn I can get high on weed and I can say oh this is something my guru did and it’s shiv ji’s fav drug. That’s what my point is.. people when they don’t need to do it but still do it and thn they bring this thing that it was done by Singh’s at those times. Taken at a limited quantity only when needed is something I can understand but making it a ritual and saying its been done from that time is something I don’t seem to agree with.. I don’t know if anyone will understand my point or not.
this is something I was reading about Shivji consuming weed and came across this.
Phenji, we meet again lol,
While now it may have become more of a ritual, that doesn't make it any less of a reason to stop its use. This is how traditions get lost in time - eventually it will just become 'sagan' or completely forgotten about. People who use Sukha properly don't use it to get stoned and do aish. Yes there are many who do but asli kamaai vale Nihang Singhs do not.
You should also look at the definiton of drug. The word has many bad connotations these days but that doesn't make it so. Cannabis is actually a very valuable drug when used correctly. As for it aiding in concentration, well I would say this would most likely vary among people. You would need to try it and know it's effects on you personally before making this judgement.
As someone who wouldn't ever personally use it, I still support those who continue this Puratan tradition.
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12 minutes ago, sarabatam said:
Are Canadian Sikhs are ready for sardar jagmeet Singh?
We all know elections are around in 2019. What would Sikhs in Canada have ?
Liberal govt with higher visibility of Sikhs in high profile cabinet positions for next five - ten years ?
Or
Hoping to vote for sardar jagmeet Singh in hopes to make him Canadian Sikh pm ? Which may or may not happen as he is extremely left ndp which has never won. Ethnic votes for him won't be enough. In my area we are all ndp so I vote for him.
Since I opened up Pandora boxes. Lol. Hope to hear sangat views ?
NeoSingh?
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17 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:
As far as I can tell it just means for the duration. Sitting alone is the main aim of the game here. During the focus of the shabad so to speak.
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17 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:
Still dont understand
What do the rest of the instructions say?
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3 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:
I forgot lol. But what would that mean? Is it like a time like amrit vela or evening etc?
Are you trying to vashkaran a janani bro? Lol
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11 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:
But how would that relate to the picture i sent?
It could mean during the main part of the shabad. But that would only make sense if it asks you to sit alone for a period of time and if the rest was optional.
So like sit for 21days on your own and 20days just as you normally would.
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1 minute ago, Singh123456777 said:
But how would that relate to the picture i sent?
That is an odd way to place the word. What page of Sharda Pooran is it on?
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36 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:
ਮੱਿਧਆਨ
What dies this word mean?
ਮੱਧਿਆਨ
Centre, Middle.
E.g. Madhya Pradesh.
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Here is a topic somewhat related to Farsi and Persian heritage:
http://sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/82164-so-i-took-a-ethnicity-dna-test/
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Seems like he had a mild seizure or fit about half way through the video which caused him to lose control of his emotions towards the end.
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Demeaning The Sikh Tradition: A Study of Mina Poetry
"Dr. Simarjit Singh’s work looks into the origin and history of the mina sect and places it in the broader context of Sectarian developments within early Sikhism. It discourses in detail the role played by self – claimed Gurus of Mina Sect especially Prithi Chand, Miharban and Harji. The author points out that the chief motive of Minas was to establish their own line of guruship. For it, they had devised various ways and means and tried their best to outwit the Sikh Gurus. The study brings to light the social, religious and political outlook the Minas in comparison to the main line of Sikhism. To establish themselves and moreover to propagate their ideals, the Mina gurus had churned out a volume of poetry using the name of ‘Nanak’ which posed a serious threat to the original spirit of Gurbani. The works produced by the Mina gurus which were available in the form of manuscripts, are being presented in this volume for the first time."
http://www.singhbrothers.com/demeaning-the-sikh-tradition-a-study-of-mina-poetry
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I agree with your post, but growing and maintaining a tulsi plant is easier said than done. I tried to keep one but it didn’t last long.
As per my understanding, having a tulsi plant needs time and dedication, sort of like having a Bonsai tree and all that goes with it..
Best to buy tulsi leaves or an extract.
Jai Tulsi Maa
*Extreme Caution* - Gurbani Mantar Sidhi
in Sikhi | Questions and Answers
Posted
Thanks for the info bro, learn something new everyday.
Would this also go to include kamaaiye of previous lives? I ask because the recipient in the anecdote I heard was a child.
Could you also elaborate on what you mean by intentions and directions?
I'm inclined to disagree with Ardas for someone else causing issues. Jaap yes, but not Ardas.