Jamuka

Yes it did happen. After the fall of the Sikh kingdom, many of these purported Granthis in Sikh temples were in actuallity Hindus. They behaved like Sikhs in order to gain control of the temples. Remember, a priest in Hinduism is a position of authority and power with monetary wealth to back it up. With Sikhism becoming popular, many Hindus were denouncing their religion to join Sikhism. Unable to stem the tide of the rising number Hindus denouncing Hinduism, many Hindus became pseudo Sikhs in order to have control of the Sikh temples. Slowly their Hindu colors started showing when they claimed Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism and idols were brought into the Harmandir. The Singh Sabha movement was started to 'cleanse' Sikhism of these deviant followesr who were in actuality Hindus. The point that was brought up actually happened in the late 17th century. I don't think Bindrawalla was even born at the time. The Hindu marriage act was enacted NOT because Sikhs were behaving Hindu like but because Hindus in India today do not recognize Sikhism as a separate and distinct religion. Rubbish! Guru Nanak Dev Ji claimed he was neither 'Hindu or Muslim' but he never claimed he was neither Hindu or Muslim but human. You're adding your own stuff here. Also he was not a reformer of Hinduism nor was he a Muslim as how many Hindus and Muslims would like to believe. Maybe he said it because he wanted everyone to be united and not divide themselves under religious clubs or he wanted to set himself apart as some sort of a free thinker who was not a Hindu or Muslim but instead a 'seeker of truth'. Whatever his reasons may have been, by the tenth Guru it was clearly defined that Sikhs are a separate religion from Hinduism and Islam. Maybe at the time Guru Nank Dev Ji's original purpose was just movement to raise spiritual awareness but one cannot deny there was some intention on his part to start something new other wise why bother setting separate Gurdwaras with Masands elected by him? He could have instead led the life of a sufi saint ie Kabir or started reformation within Hinduism ie the Bhakthi movement and the Arya Samajists. Your intentions are nobel but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. In fact your response is quite astounding especially when Hindus are literally spitting in the face of Sikhs by claiming Sikhism a sect of Hinduism! Why do you fear the truth? Why are you advocating us to be blind to the truth? Sikhism NEEDS to be protected from the onslaught of Hinduism. I'm sorry but I cannot agree with you. If we be complacent and emulate your attitude, Sikhism might meet the same fate as Jainism and Buddhism and future Sikhs will be confused as to who to they really are. I for one would dread to see future generations visiting mandirs and going back to idol worship and casteism. No, we need to instead raise awareness and stop the spreading of these lies. I very much doubt that and this is merely your opinion which is quite negative and I wonder why. Why would Guru Nanak exclude Sikhs when he started Sikhism? Why do you judge the Sikhs so badly when they are the ones who are being oppressed by the Hindus? What do you mean by 'present' situation Sikhs? Nobel thoughts but not very practical. You sound just like those Christian liberals who are Muslim apologists covering up for this vile cults nastiness just so that they may appear very 'politically correct'. No doubt Sikhs are part of humanity but rest assured, they are still Sikhs. I understand you want to sound egalitarian and not wanting to offend Hinduism or Islam, but the truth is truth. The Gurus called a spade a spade and this why the were so respected. What have you to say to the following assertions made by the Gurus? You'll note, they were not too PC. Sikhism and Other Religions Hinduism Bani Concerning Hinduism Similarities Reincarnation Like Hinduism Sikhims believes in the transmigration of the soul. There are countless cycles of births and deaths. One only breaks this cycle when they achieve mukhti (merger with God) Karma Karma regulates the reincarnation and transmigration of the soul, Sikhism links Karma with the doctrine of Grace. "Mortals obtain a human body as a result of good deeds but he reaches the gate ofsalvation with God's kind grace." (Guru Nanak, Japji) Maya The world is just an illusion and some get enchanted with this illusion and forget God Differences Sikhism rejects polytheism and accepts monotheism. Whereas Sikhism starts with one God and universalizes Him, Hinduism starts with many Gods and occasionally gives glimpses of 'One'. "I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh, Krishna Avatar) Authority of the Vedas and the belief that the truth revealed in them is absolute and that reading them one can realize perfection. "I have read all the Vedas, but my mind's separation from God is not removed and the five demons of my house (body) are stilled not even for an instant." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadis, pg. 687) Sikhism does not recognize any priestly class. "Kabir, the Brahman may be the Guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the saints. He rots to death in the perplexities of the four Vedas" (Bhagat Kabir, Salok, pg. 1377) Rejection of the Ashrama Dharma theory of dividing man's life into four stages. Instead the Gurus emphasized living the householders life. Rejection of the Varna distinction of division of human society into higher and lower castes. "There are four castes of the literates, warriors, cultivators and menials and the four stages of life. He who meditates on the Lord is the most distinguished amongst men." (Guru Ram Das, Gond, pg. 861) "The Lord asks not mortals caste and birth, so find thou out the Lord's True Home (truth). That alone is man's caste and that his glory, as are the deeds which he does." (Guru Nanak, Parbhati, pg. 1330) The Gurus rejected the Avtara theory of the incarnations of God. The Gurus not only exposed the mortality of these gods but used stories to illustrate moral values, such as 'pride leads to a fall' illustrated by the story of Harnakhash, untouchability becoming superior through devotion to God by Krishna stories and stories where Bhrahma, Vishnu and Shiva are shown to be ordinary mortals. The Gurus stressed that there is only one God and that these gods and goddeses were not true. "In every age, the Lord creates the kings, who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits." (Guru Amar Das, Ashtpadis, pg. 423) "Millions of incarnations of Vishnu and Shiv, with matted hair Desire Thee, O Kind Lord, with endless longing of their mind and body. Infinite and Inaccessible is Lord, the World Sustainer, and He is the Omnipresent wealthy Master. The gods, perfect persons, heavenly heralds and celestial singers contemplate on Thee. The greater gods and heavenly dancers utter Thine praises. Myrids of kings, gods and many super human beings remember the Lord and hail Him." (Guru Arjan Dev, Chhant, pg. 455) Worship of idols and images. "The blind ignorant ones stray in doubt and so deluded, deluded they pluck flowers for worship. They worship the lifeless stones and adore tombs. Their service all goes in vain." (Guru Ram Das, Malar, pg. 1264) "They who say the stone is a god; in vain is their service. He who falls at the feet of the stone; vain goes his labour. My Lord ever speaks. The Lord gives gifts to all the living beings. The Lord is within, but the blind one knows not. Deluded by doubt, he is caught in a noose. The stone speaks not, nor gives anything. In vain are the ceremonies of the idolater, and fruitless his service." (Guru Arjan Dev, Bhairo, pg. 1160) The Gita and Vedanta goal of a Mukt. Once he achieves salvation he does not live for the community. In Sikhism the Gurmukh achieving salvation lives to save others. "Abandon lust, wrath, avarice and worldly love. Thus be rid of both birth and death. Distress and darkness shall depart from thy home, when, within thee, the Guru implants wisdom and lights the Divine lamp. He, who serves the Lord crosses the sea of life. Through the Guru, O slave Nanak, the entire world is saved." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 241) Belief that reading of the six Shastras and their mastery will bring salvation. "The greatly voluminous Simirtis and Shastras stretch out the extension of worldly love. The fools read them, but know not their Lord. Some rare one knows Him by the Guru's grace. Of Himself the Creator does and makes others do. By means of the True Bani, He implants truth within the mortal." (Guru Amar Das, Maru, pg. 1053) "Many Shashtras and many Simirtis have I seen and searched them all. Nanak, they equal not Lord God's invaluable Name." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 265) Rejection of Sanskrit or any language as being sacred. http://www.sikhs.org/relig_h.htm If a Hindu read those scriptures, he or she may have found it very offending. Does this mean the Sikh Gurus were wrong and arrogant? The truth is the truth and one has to stand up for it no matter how offending it may be to another party and this is Sikhism. So Rupz and everybody here has every right to raise this issue and claim to the truth especially when Hindus around the globe are claiming Sikhism a part of Hinduism. Again quoting your assertion.... Nobody here is inciting hate towards Hinduism but just awareness to many Hindus dubious claim of Sikhims a sect of Hinduism and I believe this attitude is IN line with Gurus teachings. I dare say Guru Nanak would be extremely proud of todays Sikhs.

And here's a bit more.... Anti-Sikhism Charnjit Singh Bal At the advent of Guru Nanak Sahib in 1469 AD inter-Faith rivalry and hostility between the India’s two predominant religions, Hinduism and Islam, were rampant. Both religions claimed to be holier than the other. The Muslim Invaders called the Hindus Infidels and the Hindus called the Muslims Unholy. The sanctimonious clergies and holy quacks of both religions incited religious in-tolerance and hatred in their respective flocks towards the rival Faith. However both Muslims and Hindus indulged in pagan taboos, superstitions, barbaric human and animal sacrifices Idolatry, and blind faith rituals. The reformist Guru Nanak initiated a unique faith, Sikhism that primarily inspires spiritual enlightenment and prohibits futile ritualism and pagan religious practices. To propagate his religion that blends Monotheism with Pragmatism, Humanism, Liberalism and Pluralism, he embarked upon four odysseys traveling on foot all over the Indian Sub-Continent and Middle East during fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. During his travels the Guru Nanak Sahib collected the Scriptures of medieval pious Hindu and Muslim venerated Sages who subscribed to his religious concepts. Guru Arjun Sahib compiled the scriptures of the preceding Sikh Gurus and Guru Nanak Sahib’s collections in the Guru Granth Sahib that exemplifies universality of the Sikhism’s illuminating Message. However the progressive Sikhism encountered regressions, dissentions, cultism sectarianism and factionalism from the Gurus’ own kith and kin, opportunistic Sikhs and cultist guru pretenders. Guru Nanak Sahib’s elder son Sri Chand, discontented because the Guru Sahib selected Bhai Lehna Ji on merit for the august seat of Sikh Guru, founded his own un-Sikh ascetic sect. Motivated by jealousy for the same reason Guru Angud Sahib’s Son Daatu kicked Guru Amar Das Sahib and tried to set a parallel Guru-ship that eventually failed. Guru Arjun Dev Sahib’s older brother Prithi Chand driven by envy swindled the tithe and other offerings meant for the Guru from the Sikh devotees. Guru Har Rai Sahib’s elder son Ram Rai being deprived of the Guru-ship, for having cringed and distorted a verse of Gurbani to appease the Mogul Emperor Aurangzeb, started his own sect. Dhir Mal, another pretender to the august seat of Sikh Guru instigated Massund Shinha to murder his uncle Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib. Shinha fired on Guru Sahib, wounded the Guru and looted Guru Sahib’s belongings including the original copy of Guru Granth Sahib. The Massunds (Sikh Apostles) became arrogant, corrupt and started to embezzle tithes that were meant to preach and promote Sikhism. Guru Gobind Singh discontinued the practice of appointing Massunds. Discerning Sagely the probable future abuse of the August seat of the Guru by the likes of Dattuji, Prithi Chand, Ram Rai and Dhirmal, Guru Gobind Singh decreed, "All Sikhs to regard the Granth Sahib as their perpetual (spiritual) Guru" which is consistent with the Sikhism’s fundamental tenet, "Word is Guru, Guru is word." The Guru Sahib mandated the collective Sikh Panth (Nation) to administer the temporal Authority of Sikhism democratically. Unfortunately for the Sikhism and Sikh Community, neither that decree nor the noble message of the Sikhism has deterred some opportunists from misusing and abusing the Sikh religion for the self-serving ambitions. Radhaswami, Nirankari, Namdhari, Nanaksari cultist Gurus and Tuksaals (standardized study of Sikh Theology Institutions) have customized and commercialized the Sikh religion and set up their own Fiefdoms. Even some main stream Sikh leaders and preachers who are devoid of the essence of Sikhism’s progressive philosophy and illuminating Gurbani (Sikh scriptures) keep misleading the Sikh community back to the era of darkness from which the Gurus tried to extricate the Sikhs. From mid eighteenth century till nineteen-twenties, a span of a century and a half, the Sikh Nation was engaged in Life and death struggle against the Muslim and Christian Colonialism, Imperialism and Jihads/Crusades. During these crucial times the Nirmlas, Mahants and Poojaris who had the control of the Sikh Gurdwaras (Temples) introduced Idol worship, ritualism, superstition and taboos into the into Sikhism. They embezzled donations and funds, held endowment lands titles in their names and lived a life of sin and perversion in the Gurdwaras. The Hindu mythology oriented anonymous or pseudonymous (imposter) Sikh writers and Pundits cunningly adulterated Sikh History and Philosophy with mythology, wizardry and witchcraft. These writers, products of Hindu religious institutions, wrote the so-called Granths with ulterior motives to obliterate unique Sikh identity and assimilate progressive monotheistic Sikhism that promotes spiritual enlightenment into primitive Hinduism that fosters polytheism, idolatry, dogmatic ritualism, blind faith taboos, superstitions and prejudices. One such Granth, ‘Gurblas Patshahi 6’, written by an anonymous writer, edited by the Sikh leader Joginder Singh Vedanti (one who practices Hindu Vedanta) and Dr. Amarjit Singh and sponsored by the thirteen so-called elite Sikh scholars and leaders was recently published by the S. G. P C. Due to the overwhelming criticism from the Sikh Intelligentsia and writers that Granth has been taken off the market but there are many more of that type in circulation. A so-called Dassam Granth, compilation of many scripts by anonymous writers but mischievously purported and propagated to be the Scriptures by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib contains fiction, mythology, wizardry and explicit eroticism. The proponents and propagators of this dubious literature have succeeded to a large extent in their sinister plot in beguiling Sikh majority and contaminating the Sikh History and quintessential philosophy with mythology, dogmatism, polytheism, wizardry witchcraft, eroticism, etc. Whereas the majority of innocent Sikh’s inability to grasp the Sikhism’s essential message is a simple failure on their part, the role of the numerous cultist Guru pretenders, half literate preachers, self-serving main stream Sikh leaders which propagate such blasphemous literature as integral part of Sikh history and philosophy is much more detrimental. Consequently the practice of Sikhism, a pragmatic faith of knowledge is replete with blind faith, prejudices, dogmatic rituals, Idolatry, pagan taboos and superstitions. Sikh religious services and ceremonies are performed at the Sikh Gurdwaras (temples) at a price commensurate with the Sikh’s perceptual devotion and ability to pay to invoke God’s benedictions and Guru’s blessings. The international Sikh community has been fragmented into numerous sects, cults and antagonistic factions. The genuine Sikh Scholars have refuted with convincing arguments the compatibility of the mythical, wizardly and erotic contents of these Granths’ with the illuminating philosophy of the Guru Granth Sahib’s quintessential Gurbani. They have also revealed that the anonymous, pseudonym and quasi-Sikh writers wrote these so-called Granths with ulterior motives. But instead of acclaiming and honoring them, the half literate opportunistic Sikh Leaders who have had strangle-hold on Sikh Nation, have criticized, bullied and ostracized them and banned their books. One of the most prominent Sikh Scholars ever Bhai Kahn Singh writes, "the earlier and contemporary writers of our Faith have written numerous books on (Sikh) history, code and conventions according to their beliefs and mental tendencies. These books are both beneficial and harmful i.e. the subject matter compatible with essential message of Sikh Gurus’ edification is beneficial otherwise it is harmful." "The in-depth study of these Granths gives the impression that the poets of our Faith have blundered in copying the authors of religious books of other Faiths. They have bundled and dyed the social, political and religious principles in the religious color. It is all the more saddening that there are very few analytical minded Sikh scholars seeking the truth. In fact the opponents, those who call the rational minded writers and speakers agnostics, are in majority." Rattan Singh Jaggi who did an in-depth review of the Dassam Granth writes, "The subject matter in the Chritro Pakhyan is so erotic and its language is so sexually explicit that in some places it surpasses even the (Hindu) Koke Shastra or Kama Shastra (Erotica Manual)" Prof. Harinder Singh Mehboob writes, "The devious activity of contaminating the Granths and attributing the heretical writings to the Sikh Gurus has often been perpetrated repeatedly. This insidious activity has been pursued at the instigation of the mischievous and jealous people (inimical to Sikhism)." Prominent Sikh academician Pr. Harbhajan Singh in his Punjabi book ‘Selected Articles on Dassam Granth’ writes, "In their wild flights of fancy both authors, (Bhai Santokh Singh of Suraj Prakash and the dubious writer of Dassam Granth’s Bachitir Natak) left no deficiency in fabricating blatant Gossips and mythical Fantasies." Prof. Gurmukh Singh’s Ex-communication The ex-communication of a true Sikh, Prof. Gurmukh Singh is an epitome (prime example) of abuse of illicit power by a bunch of self-serving religious leaders. At the time of his ex-communication Prof. Gurmukh Singh, one of pioneer founders of the reformist Sikh movement Singh Sabha, was actively pursuing his goal to establish the first Khalsa College at Amritsar. The band of pretenders to the Sikh spiritual and temporal Authority not only ex-communicated Prof. Gurmukh Singh but also incited the Sikh community not to render him financial help to carry out his missionary work and the noble cause of founding the Khalsa College. In 1883 Akal Takht head Granthi Bedi Khem Singh proclaimed himself as the Sikh Guru. Aided and abetted by his cohorts, Rajah Bikram Singh of Fridkote, Mahants , Pujaris and other Guru pretenders, he ex-communicated a genuine Sikh scholar and missionary Prof. Gurmukh Singh who criticized him for the un-Sikh act in 1887. They harassed and hounded Giani Dit Singh who dared to condemn their anti-Sikhism activity and canvass support for Prof. Gurmukh Singh to an early grave. The un-Sikh activities of Khem Singh Bedi and his cohorts are indicative of the sly religious leaders’ ability to manipulate repressive proceedings against a devout religious person. Some of the unjust accusations leveled against Prof. Gurmukh Singh who dedicated his life to the noble causes of reforming the Sikhism’s management and preaching system and eradication of wide spread illiteracy among the community were:- 1) He does not revere the Sikh Gurus’ descents, (pretenders to Sikh Guru-ship). 2) Twenty pictures of Avtars (Hindu Mythical god incarnates), were burned during a convention of Lahore Singh Sabha (Forum) to refute their existence. 3) A Hindu convert to Islam was baptized as a Singh by the Lahore Singh Sabha. 4) In an article published in the Khalsa Newspaper he wrote, "Worship of weapons in the Sikh Gurdwaras is copy of Hindu ritual that is against Guru’s edification." To an intelligent student of Sikh theology it is clear the ex-communication of Prof. Gurmukh Singh was a case of blatant abuse of illicit spiritual and temporal authority and the heretics punishing the pious Sikh. Prof. Manjit Singh revoked this dictatorial edict in 1995 and acclaimed Prof. Gurmukh Singh as a true Sikh. Giani Bhag Singh’s ex-communication The ex-communication of Giani Bhag Singh exemplifies how the conniving religious leaders wield the authority to destroy those who dare to dissent. Giani Bhag Singh’s Book ‘Dassam Granth Nirnay’ (critique) was published in 1976. The book publication caused great deal of controversy amongst the Sikh community. During this period of controversy Giani Bhag Singh and Giani Sant Singh Muskeen were in Indore on lecture tours. As usual at one place when asked Muskeen told congregation that Akhand Path is compatible with the Guru’s edification while at another he said it is not. And when Giani Bhag Singh mentioned about these contradictions Muskeen was naturally resentful. During his lectures at Rajauri Gardens’ Gurudwara, Delhi, Muskeen quoted some verses from the Dassam Granth’s spurious scriptures. Some young Sikhs argued with Muskeen and told him that the verses he had quoted were not that of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. Although the young Sikhs were absolutely right, Muskeen adamantly refused to concede that he was wrong. Next day they had some scripts from Dassam Granth printed and asked Muskeen to preach the scripts to the Sikh congregation. Muskeen refused and accused Giani Bhag Singh of sending the thugs (young Sikhs) to insult him. Muskeen approached his friend Golden Temple Head Granthi, Giani Chet Singh. Both Muskeen and Chet Singh instigated Akal Takht Jathedar Giani Sadhu Singh Bhaura (from my village Bhaura) to issue Hokum-nama (edict) to ex-communicate Giani Bhag Singh. However in view of the controversy amongst Sikh community the S. G. P. C. decided to call an ad-hoc advisory committee meeting that was chaired by Giani Sadhu Singh. When at this meeting the research Sikh Historian Shamsher Singh Ashoke who had also written a critical review on Dassam Granth tried to express his views, he was shouted down by the prejudiced members. When Pr. Harbhajan Singh asked all the 15 members at the meeting, if anyone had studied the Dassam Granth analytically, their silence conveyed the negative reply. And he asked them, (1) if the Dassam Granth’s authenticity controversy wasn’t as old as the Granth itself? (2) Didn’t the Akal Takht Jathedar and Granthi Singh Sahiban reply in June 1973 through Assistant Sec. S. Gurbakhsh Singh to Santokh of Chandigarh that Chritro Pakhyan is not Guru Gobind Singh’s work? (3) Aren’t we, the high-ranking Sikh personalities, too eager to condemn a pious person without his representation? Note:- In a reply No. 36672 dated 3rd August 1973 to S Santokh Singh (Chandigarh) the religious preaching sub-Committee of S. G. P .C. wrote, "In regard to your inquiry of 6th July 1973 the views of Singh Sahiban of Derbar Sahib and Akal Takht Jathedar are being sent to you. "Chritro Pakhyan in the Dassam Granth is not Guru Gobind Singh’s Scriptures. These are copies of the primitive Hindu mythical tales." Signed, Gurbakhsh Singh, Assistant Secretary, Religious Preaching Committee, Shrimoni G. P. Committee, Amritsar. Pr. Harbhajan Singh’s wisdom prevailed in drafting and passing two resolutions unanimously, (1) Giani Bhag Singh should have presented his side of the case in detail to the Panth instead of two-line comment. (2) Since with time the issue is getting serious, this committee humbly requests the S. G .P. C. to institute a sub-committee of prominent Sikh Scholars to authenticate the Dassam Granth’s scripts that are compatible with the Guru Granth Sahib’s philosophy and Guru’s Ideals. No punishment was considered appropriate for Giani Bhag Singh. Despite these unanimous consensus that were reached at the meeting Giani Bhag Singh was ex-communicated on 5th July 1977 in a mystifying manner. The same bunch of Singh-Sahiban (Giani Bhaura, Giani Chet Singh and Giani Kirpal Singh) who said that Chritro Pakhyan wasn’t Guru Gobind Singh’s Work and were also star participants at the meeting to adjudge Giani Bhag Singh, ex-communicated him. The concerned Sikh Scholars Pr. Harbhajan Singh, Giani Surjit Singh, Bhai Milap Singh and Amar Singh conferred with each other to have the edict issue redressed. Bhai Amar Singh Aligarh, who knew Jathedar Bhaura when he was a Granthi, convinced him of his folly. Jathedar Bhaura agreed to rescind the edict. Bhai Amar Singh, Giani Surjit Singh and S. Milap Singh were to accompany Giani Bhag Singh to Akal Takht to have the edict rescinded. Muskeen who came to know about this visit, cunningly took Giani Bhag Singh to Akal Takht himself at his own expense. Jathedar Bhaura had a paper with a text, "Giani Bhag Singh has apologized regarding Ardas (Sikh Litany) and Chaupie (a lyrical supplication from Dassam Granth)" typed in advance. When it was given to old and feeble Giani Bhag Singh to sign, he accidentally dropped his reading glasses. Both Bhaura and Muskeen said, leave the glasses; don’t you trust us? They practically tricked Giani Bhag Singh into signing the apology that he deeply regretted. He told Giani Surjit Singh with tears in his eyes that Muskeen had tricked him. Jathedar Aroor Singh declared Kamagata Maru returnees from Canada in 1915 as un-Sikhs at the behest of the British Government of India; and awarded Gen. Dyre who massacred hundreds of Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims on 1919 Vaisakhi day in the Jallianwala Baug, with a Saropa (the Sikh scarf of honour). During the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh Sikhism was sacrificed at the altar of Secularism. Although he built many Sikh Gurdwaras and allotted endowed lands to these Gurdwaras, no real attempts were made to counter the corruptive influences of the sly Brahmins, impostor Sikh Gurus, zealous Hindu and Muslim clerics and holy quacks. The Maharaja’s folly to trust and appoint the Hindu Dogra brothers Dhyan Singh and Gulaub Singh and brothers Teja Singh and Lall Singh from U. P. to the elite posts proved to be fatal for the Sikh Raj. Soon after the Maharaja’s death in 1839, treachery and intrigues of these traitors enabled the British to occupy Punjab. As usual the ‘Holier than Thou’ Christian Missionaries who without fail followed the Christian Conquistadors (Conquerors), spread their proselytizing (conversionary) tentacles in Punjab and built the Missionary Network. The Muslim and the Christian imperialists made two pronged intrusions into Sikhism. On one hand they un-leashed brute power of imperialism especially the Muslims who butchered children in front of the mothers to force conversion to Islam. On the other hand they enticed potential converts with endowment lands and elite posts. Then there were the Christian Missionaries and Muslim Quazis, and holy men/quacks to convert the weaklings, impoverished and the naïve. Note:- Although hunted and massacred on the genocidal scale, the eighteenth and nineteenth Century Sikhs resisted the Muslim and Christian onslaughts valiantly. However the Hindus deprived of political powers for nearly a thousand years used insidious means to either obliterate the progressive Sikhism’s unique identity and swallow it into Hinduism or proclaim it as a sect of Hinduism. With the downfall of the ruling Muslims who called the Hindus as Kaffirs (Pagans) and considered converting them to Islam as a benevolent act, the ultra Hindu fundamentalists were emboldened. Whereas in the past they targeted Sikhism covertly, now started to malign the Sikh Gurus and Sikhism openly. Acting on the Hindu cultist Vivaka Nanda’s devious advice, "If you want to root out a religion, cast doubts about the historical facts of its founders", Daya Nand the founder of radical Arya Samaj (Aryan Social Order) launched vicious attacks on the Sikh Gurus and Sikhism. He denigrated Guru Nanak Sahib with remarks, "Ideals of Nanak Ji were noble but he was illiterate; why would he otherwise write Sanskrit word nirbhya as nirbhow? Since he (Guru Nanak Ji) had some ego, he must have resorted to some deceit for the sake of his conceit." That Daya Nand was an ignorant Charlatan is evident from the fact that Guru Nanak Sahib wrote, preached and sang his Scriptural compositions in the colloquial language of the people of Punjab, Punjabi that was in use before Guru Nanak’s time. Venerated Muslim Sage Sheik Freed who lived couple centuries (1173-1266 AD) before Guru Nanak wrote Scriptures in Punjabi. Guru Nanak Sahib collected and Guru Arjan Sahib compiled these Scriptures in the Guru Granth Sahib. Like all impostors Daya Nand was a liar, duplicitous and cunning. Giani Dit Singh, his contemporary writes, "Once during his discourse at Brahm Smaj Temple he stated that the Sun orbits around the Earth and supported his statement with quotes from the Vedas. However later at the residence when a companion Saien Das told him that since today’s advanced Astronomy confirms that the Earth orbits around the Sun, people will not think highly of Vedas. Daya Nand said that he should have been told me earlier; now I will refute the statement tomorrow. Next day he contradicted his own statement by saying, "Yesterday when I said that the Sun orbits around the Earth, that is the assertion of the adversaries. That is how they interpret the concepts of Vedas. Actually these concepts confirm that the Sun doesn’t orbit around the earth, but the Earth orbits around the Sun." The Rashtrya Svayam Savek Sang (R. S. S.), a radical Hindu fundamentalist organization sprouted eight decades ago. Its strategy is more insidious. To obliterate the unique Sikh identity and proclaim Sikhism as a sect of Hinduism, R .S. S. is promoting and preaching the so-called Granths written by dubious Scholars. The subject matter of these Granths is contaminated with Hindu mythology, polytheism, wizardry Idolatry, blind faith ritualism, eroticism, etc. that are totally contrary to the Monotheistic, pragmatic and spiritually illuminating doctrines of the Guru Granth Sahib’s quintessential Gurbani. In a clandestine move the Hindu R. S. S. has spawned an ill-conceived organization called Rashtrya Sikh Sangat that has same initials as the promiscuous mother organization to beguile the gullible Sikhs and non-Sikhs. The discerning Sikhs Scholars and Intelligentsia contend that the cagey Hindu R. S. S. has created Rashtrya Sikh Sangat and filled its ranks with the mercenary Hindus and naïve Sikhs to boost its efforts to propagate distorted facts from Sikh History and misinterpretations of the selected verses from the Guru Granth Sahib’s Gurbani. Some misguided or naive Sikhs, zealous Hindus and mercenaries are helping R. S. S in its deviant designs. Because the concerned Sikh Scholars and intelligentsia challenge the deceitful agenda of the R. S. S., a Sikh lawyer Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba characterizes the call of Institute of Sikh Studies to reject the Dassam Granth, "irrational, motivated and sacrilege." And a self-beatified Sikh Saint (also known as Serkari Saadh) Virsa Singh of Delhi is distributing translations of Dassam Granth. The R. S. S. president Mr. Sudershan claims, "The Sikhs were created to defend Hindu Faith from the tyranny of the Mogul Rulers; and the two Hundred and fifty thousand Sikhs killed during the (1717-1799 AD) extreme Mogul tyranny were originally Hindus who made supreme sacrifices to defend the Hindu Faith." One wonders why didn’t these original Hindus make supreme sacrifices to defend Hinduism when the tyrannical Muslim Rulers forcibly converted enormous number of Hindus to Islam? And why didn’t the original Hindus make supreme sacrifices when Mohamed Bin-Kasam, who was by the Khalifa of Baghdad, conquered India’s principality of Sindh in the eighth century with just 700 hundred men? Mehmood Gaznavi advanced all the way to Hinduism’s most sacred shrine Som Nath, smashed the Idols, looted gold doors with gold inlay and took away Hindu women as concubines and slaves? If the Hindus were capable of making supreme sacrifices why was India slave to the Muslim invaders for seven centuries until the three hundred year old Sikh panth dealt fatal blows to the tyrannical Mogul Rule in the late seventeen and early eighteen centuries when Himalayan Hindu Principalities were banding with the Moguls. The Sikhs that constitute two percent of the total population of India’s predominantly Hindu society made eighty percent of the sacrifices to oust the British imperialists that ruled India for two centuries and Sikh Homeland, Punjab, for one century Only an ignorant or insidious can proclaim the Sikhs, who came from all castes and creeds to adopt Sikhism by choice, original Hindus. A man of Mr. Sudershan’s credentials can be called ignorant. The origin of Sikhism was motivated by the noble concepts of universal religious freedom and socio-cultural Liberalism. Ever since its inception the Sikhism has espoused and made supreme sacrifices for these noble causes The authentic Sikh History is witness to the valiant acts of defiance of the Sikh Gurus, Muslim and Hindu holy Sages (co-authors of Guru Granth Sahib) and numerous Sikh Martyrs for these noble causes. Conversely the Sikhism would have defended the Muslims’ right to religious freedom under tyrannical Hindu Rulers. http://www.sikhsundesh.net/antisikhism.html

Don't have time to reply yet but here's some food for thought on rituals. Ritualism 1. Burnt be thos rituals and formalities, Whereby I forget my Beloved Lord. Man practices rituals in order to control his body, Yet his mind wanders in all directions. (Guru III, Vadhans Rag) 2. What are all these rituals worth, If the heart is not sincere? (Namdevj i, Asa Rag) 3. By mere talk of Him, We are saved not; Nor by reading a load of books; Without love-worship, one's body is cleansed not. Guru I, Sri Rag 4. The Pandits read and recite the Vedas, But all for the love of Maya. (Guru III, Shlokas) 5. If he cleanseth his body from outside, The dirt of the mind goeth not. (Guru III, Shlokas) 6. The egocentrics repeat the Name of the Lord endlessly, 7. But their dirt sticks-unto their minds (Guru III, Sri Rag) 8. If mercy be the cotton, contentment the thread, Continence the knot and truth the twist, If this be the sacred thread of the soul, Then O Pandit, put it on me. This sacred thread neither breaks, Nor becomes dirty. Nor it is burnt nor lost; Blessed are they who put it around their neck and depart. (Guru I, Asa Rag) 9. When a person died, The sacred thread fell off, And he went without the thread. (Guru I, Asa Rag) 10. A Hindu priest comes to the house of a Hindu, By reciting Mantras he puts the sacred thread around his neck, After wearing the sacred thread, If one commits sin, His purifications go in vain. (Guru I Ramkali Raga) 11. If one becomes Turk by circumsision, What can we say about woman? (Kabirji, Asa Rag) 12. Let gentleness and right restraint, Be thy circumcision. Guru V, Maru Rag 13. The Lord is not realized, By practising Havana, Yoga, meditation, austerity,And pilgamage to holy places. Guru V, Bhairo Rag 14. Those are not pure, Who sit down after taking a bath; Only those are pure, In whose heart He dwells. (Guru I, Asa Rag) 15. He wanders at sixty-eight holy places Without any gain, How can he be cleansed of the dirt of sins? (Guru I, Maru Rag) 16. Let good conduct, Be thy fasting. (Guru I, Majh Rag) 17. Those who practice fasts on lunar dates, Practice them in vain. (Guru V, Maru Rag) 18. Whosoever controls the mind, He is a Haji. (Guru V, Maru Rag) 19. Hear O Pandit, the performer of rites! The action that brings joy, Is the concentration on Spiritual Essence. Guru I, Sorath Rag) 20. Let kindness be thy mosque, Faith be thy prayer-carpet, The honest earnings be thy Quran, Effort be thy circumcision, And good conduct be thy fast. (Guru I, MajhRag) 21. Mechanical utterings of mantras, penances, And all leanings and fixing of the mind on any object, The discourses on the six Shastras and the Simrities, The practice of Yoga, the religious rites and rituals, Renunciation of the world and wandering about in the woods, And all kinds of efforts made; Giving jewels in charity and oblations to the sacred fires, And getting the body cut into bits, And offering each bit as sacrifice to the deities, And observance of fasts and vows and other deeds, With all these, the dirt of ego will not depart. (Guru V, Gauri Rag) http://allaboutsikhs.com/quotations/ritualism.htm

Depends on the situation I guess but the answer that comes immideatly to mind is an 'ass whooping'.

Ironbangle wrote I guess you have a point. I just woudn't want Sikhism to end up like Hinduism with it's mindless silly rituals. AmrikSingh wrote Agreed. Amrik wrote From a purely philosophical and spiritual vantage, you have a point and I wholeheartedly agree with you. But you don't realise you're walking a tight rope by making such allegations. You must understand, Sikhism is still a fledgling religion barely taking off and we've got Hindus trying to gobble it up by claiming it is part of Hinduism. What if today we spend 24/7 serving SGGS, then we put up picture os our Gurus and start placing flowers below it, followed by more deviancy by some Sikhs by making idols in the shape of the Gurus and placing flowers at the bottom. What type of Sikhi values are we teaching a young Sikh child thats living in such an environemnt. What is there to stop this kid growing up and start hanging out at the mandirs? How will you try making this indivual believe Sikhism is distinct when it's practises are similar? Within two or three generations, Sikhs will actually start believing that Sikhism IS a sect of Hinduism and bring Hindu teachings into Sikhism and into Sikh temples. I for one find Hindu worship the most dumbest form of religion but thats because I've been raised that way. How would Sikhs want their young to grow up and what values to emulate? Do you think my story sounds too far fetched? It has happened before right in Harmandir. This is why the Singh Sabha movement had a hard time removing these Hindu elements in Sikh temples. For those of you who don't know about what happened in the 20's at Harmandir check out http://allaboutsikhs.com/history/his1012.htm An erxcept from this site... "The newly baptised "low caste Sikhs", at the annual session of Khalsa Bradari, were taken to the Golden Temple accompanied by reformers. This was a direct challenge to the Mahants. The priets of Sri Harmandir Sahib refused to accept Karah prasad from them or offer prayers for them. However, the reformers insisted on the right of every Sikh to do that. After theological discussions, Sri Guru Garnth Sahib was consulted. The Granthi amongst the objectors, read out third Guru's hymn, "Brother, He showers grace even on those who have no merit and takes from them true Guru's service. By touch of Philosopher's stone, i.e., base metal has become gold ... Our light has blended with His light, and we have become one with Him." The priets, visibly affected offered prayers and accepted prasad from the hands of the newly converted Sikhs." Do Sikhs want to take the chance of Hindu influence coming back into Sikhism? Hindus to this day do not recognize Sikhism. I say ANY form of Idol worship should be completely erased out of Sikhism and isn't this in line with Gurus teachings? Short answer = Hinduism. Idol worship is the act of worshipping a statue/object and believing that is God. Pheena wrote Mindless rituals i) Catholic priests throwing holy water on their congregation ii) Muslims after performing the Haj get together and throw stones at a stick that supposedly represents evil. iii) Hindus pouring milk down their Lingam statue God I am not against devotion for the SGGS but I'm just against overemphasization on such matters as it will eventually become rituals. It shows in your posts, You see there is no right or wrong in this, you don't want to cook food for the Guru then that is fine, don't do it. Is Guru/God going to punish you if you don't, no. It is your devotion to the guru and everyoen expresses in their own way. Some buy Beautifull Rumallas for the Guru, some don't. Some Place Beautifully sowen covers for the Guru, some don't, Some Buy a Kingsize bed, some don't. Guru is looking for Love not gold, not king size beds, not food, his food is Love. It is your Devotion. Everyones expression of their love and devotion is their own and the Rehat gives us 'A' way in my opinion. You fail to realise one thing though, devotion comes from within. It is not devotion anymore if it is some rules set by some Maryada. These 'illogical' practises that you advocate is very dangerous for the future of Sikhism. Today you say it's A OK to worship the SGGS 24/7. Tommorow or the next generation will make up some new Maryada claiming some picture or staue of the Gurus is ok tobe revered and who is to argue with them when they give you back the very same reasons you are using here to justify your point? And slowly the slip happens and Sikhism will become Hinduism but with different Gods. Your actions will be used as justification for orther 'illogical' actions by younger generations. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't bowing to the Guru an act of respect and not submitting? Sikhism is not like Islam where one has to 'submit' to Allah. Noweher is it written in the SGGS where one has to submit to the Gurus. Didn't Guru Nanak himself abhor such pilgrimages claiming God is everywhere and there is no need to go to Mecca to attain enlightenment or salvation. Since you mention ego lets elaborate about it. What is the ego? The ego is the I in us, the self that actually does not exist. This is what the little I know from reading contemparary books. The ego if I'm not mistaken is the I in us....the I that wants money,better job,beautiful wife,material gain.....to defeat the ego is practically impossible. I don't think a pilgrimage to Mecca can defeat the ego as most Muslims perform the Haj so they may start using the title 'Haji'. Hajis are accorded special status in a Muslim society. So if anything, the Haj pilgrimigage actually INFLATES the ego. But I understand your point that what if there is one among the millions who performed the Haj purely to be closer to God but is this happening? Over centuries of time, the actual meaning has been lost. Which is why our Gurus started something from scratch. Ritualism is still quite popular among many communities. Just the other day I saw a show where in the Phillipinos once a year Phillipinos will nail themsleves up on a cross to emulate how Jesus suffered. Is the person closer to God after such a stupid ritual? I very much doubt it. Can you provide an example? I don't doubt you but the very little I know is that no bhagat or teaching from Vedas were included in the SGGS as the Gurus saw no good in it. Sikhism is NOT a reformed version of Hinduism. It is a distinct and different religion. I agree with most of what you wrote. In summary there is no wrong in idol worship if the idol is merely a symbol of your undivided devotion, am I right? It only becomes a ritual if the REAL meaning to it is lost, right? But is this the only way a Sikh can show his love for the man upstairs? Why don't we show devotion to God by actively participating in charities and substituting the idol with people who are in need? Why don't we tell our selves in devotion to Guru, "dear Guru in devotion to you I shall peform 8 hours of community service in the local orphanage?" Must devotion the SGGS be in rituals? Sikhs should seriously consider their actions when it comes to any rituals lest Sikhs revert back to Hinduism. There are many ways to show love to the SGGS and cooking and attending to the SGGS 24/7 and deciding why type of rummalla to be used is not necessarily one of them.

Check out this link. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=35850

I'm assuming you're referring to me since I am the only one quoting the Jews here. Contrary to what fairy tales you may choose to believe, the Jews ARE united. Almost all Jews support Zionism. What they have managed to achieve despite their relative small number could have been only achieved only through unity. Golda Meir's one visit to the US during their independance movement yielded donations up to 50 over million US dollars and mind you she went there with less then 10 dollars in her wallet. Jews who migrated from Europe without being able to speak a single word of Hebrew or Yiddish were fighting next to Israeli native Jews despite not being able to communicate. This is what you call unity. I WILL and WILL CONTINUE to quote the Jews and I DO know what they are all about contrary to what you may believe.

They should allow Sikhs to wear a Kirpan especially now that they're recognizing Sharia law.

Canadian Jatti wrote Where I live the Sikhs get together once a week and cook food. This food is then distributed in the local general hospital. You see hospital food sucks so the Sikhs here do sewa by distributing wholesome nutrienal food to patients. I am of the opinion that this is the sewa Guru envisioned us to do. N30 wrote Can you point out one illogical act by the Sikh Gurus? Just one dude. Sikhism is about logic. It is the very nature of it being down to earth and logical that attrated me to this faith in the first place. Now I'm not saying Sikhism is the best faith out there but it is one of the best because it is devoid of mindless rituals and illogic rules. It is illogic to pray to a stone idol and believe that is God which is why Guru Gobind Singh Ji proclaimed he was an idol breaker. It is illogic to believe God only exists in the Kaaba which is why Guru Nanak requested that one Imam to point his feet away from the Kaaba, to point his feet where God does not exists. It is illogic to believe that only Jesus is the son of God and the rest of humanity isn't which is why our Gurus proclaimed we are all children of God. It is illogic to believe Jesus died for our sins and we should all feel grateful. It is illogic to believe that evil which is hell bent in wiping you out can be subdued through peaceful means which is why Buddhists and Buddhism was wiped out in India and are currently being annihilated in Tibet. This is why Guru claimed that it is just to raise the sword when all other means of subduing evil has failed. This is why you see so many former Christians joining Sikhism because their teachings and the Bible does not make sense. I know so because I've joined many a Bible sessions with Bible thumpers out there. Sikhism IS logic. Sikhism is the most logical religion. I challenge you to show me ONE belief,prayer,act within Sikhism that is illogical. I am reminded of this one story where by Mehtha Kallu gave some money to Guru Nanak and told him to go to town and conduct some some business with this money and try to double it. Instead Guru Nanak took the money and bought food for the poor. Needless to say Metha Kallu was mad as hell when Guru Nanak told him what he did. Isn't Sikhims about helping the needy? This is what Brahmin priests tell low caste Hindus inorder to delude them and exploit the poor. This is why India is in shambles. Yes it is true where and who we are todays is based on karma but does that stop us from helping others who are needy? Who is against Nam simran? We just questioned the validity of serving food 24/7 to the SGGS and other mindless rituals. BTW didn't the Sikh Gurus claim to forget who they are and only remember Waheguru? This is why we are not allowed to have even pictures of any our Gurus. This was proclaimed by our Gurus themselves and I can understand why. They were on earth to spread the word of God and did not want others to pray to them. FYI most of the paintings we have of Sikh Gurus were much after the time of the Gurus. The Gurus forbade anybody to have pictures of them. Ask yourself, why did they make suc a request? Who is to say who is a fool and who isn't? I would say only God knows who is a fool and who isn't. None of the Sikh Gurus called anybody a fool. This is the level of humility they possesed despite being enlightened souls. This is why these self acclaimed Sants/Mahatmas are nothing and no one to me. It should be that way for all Sikhs. Isn't Sikhism about the sould merging in unison with Satnam Sri Waheguru the one true God and not falling in love with the SGGS? I mean seriously, where does God fit into the picture here? Why fall in love with the SGGS when it is God allmighty that created the SGGS? Shoudn't we be falling in love with God and not the SGGS? Canadian Jatti wrote Yes thats why Guru Nanak after all his travels set up the Gurdwara (Guru da Wara) where all was welcomed and he emphasized sewa to the sangat and not to himself. N30 wrote Ardas is prayer and not sewa. The act of telling ardas in an 'akhand path' may constitute sewa but Ardas itself is prayer. Baba Manochal wrote Yes you are right, Bhai Gurdas is a very revered figure in Sikh history but he is not a Guru. Why should I refer to Bhai Gurdas when the SGGS is right there? Isn't the act of referring to Bhai Gurdas who is not a Guru undermining the very authority of the SGGS? BTW Bhai Gurdas was not the only one respected by the Sikhs Gurus. Bhai Madho Das a.k.a. Banda Singh Bahadhur was also very respected by Guru Gobind Singh Ji but yet even a great figure like him went off the true path. Why do Sikhs have to refer to any Bhai or Baba when the SGGS is right there? Desn't this behaviour constitute one who does not have confidence in the SGGS? If you ask me this is blasphemy. Exactly where is it stated in the SGGS that one has to make sure the type of 'rumalla' used is in accordance with the weather? Can you point this out? Guru Nanak requested Bhai Lehna....ok the key word here is requested. Where is it stated in the SGGS or any of our Gurus hukam that one has to feed the SGGS 24/7? I await your reply. You have gone off on a tangent now. Nobody here is denying seva to the Guru even sacrifice if need be but our questions is the validity of preparing food for SGGS 24/7,the type of 'rumalla' used...ec etc. BTW is Bibi Bhani a guru? Exactly where did Guru Amar Das request Sikhs to put their feet under his stool that broke? Comparing the living Gurus to the SGGS is like comparing apples to oranges. The SGGS is not on some stool taking a bath whereby the stool broke and where we are to put our feet under the stool. Even Guru Nanak Dev Ji requested Sikhs not to pray and rever to him but to only God. This is a fact. This is why we're not supposed to have any pictures of Guru Nanak lest we forget the name and start revering the Guru instead. Is this by any chance happening now? I challenge you to prove to us all. Where is it stated in the SGGS Guru Nanak saw God in a stone????? I await your reply. I have read contempary books about how God worship had to move from pagan worship to book form because the stone itself was revered above God after a time. You see there is nothing wrong with Pagan worship if you realise that the statue you pary to is only a symbol and nothing more. But after a time the followers started forgetting that and started literally revering the stone itself and that is how Pagan worship died out because it started becoming a faith of empty silly rituals. This is why Guru Nanak deplored any form of Pagan/stone worship. Those of you who believe it's A OK to pray and revere to a stone is NOT a Sikh simple as that, no arguments. No matter how many times you 'amarshakh' and how long a 'pug' and 'dardi' you have, if in your heart you believe worshiping a stone is ok, then you are no more a Sikh. If most Sikhs believe it's ok then I suggest to the Sikhs stop claiming Sikhism a distinct and different religion from Hinduism. Then it must be true that Sikhism IS a sect of Hinduism and Hindu belief of all the Gurus are Vishnu incarnates must be true. What nonsense. Can you verify this story of yours? Can you provide a link or book to refer? What rubbish! Why then did Guru Gobind Singh Ji proclaim he is an Idol Breaker??????? Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not see any good from statue worship which is why NO prayer/shashtra from the Vedas and Gita was included in the SGGS. In fact he leaned more towards Bhagats from Kabir and Sheikh Farid. Sikhs may have borrowed some concet like karma but thats it. The SGGS clearly states that Brahma,Shiva,Vishnu and Parbathi which BTW are prayed to in idol form ARE Gods creations. This means Brahma,Vishnu,Shiva and Parbathi are Gods creations and NOT God themselves. Idol worship of these figures is a big No No in Sikhism. Go read a god history book on the Sikhs and you'll note after the British arrived (much later), the Sikhs or Sikhism was in disarray. Pseudo Sikhs acting more Hindu like changed the structure of the Golden temple to accomodate prayer to statue Gods. They were known as Pujari Granthis. These Pujaris even refused to serve parshad to low caste Sikhs.Why do you think the Singh Sabha movement was started? The Singh Sabha ousted these pseudo Sikhs from the Golden temple BECAUSE of idol worship in the Golden temple and many other Gurdwaras. Then the SGPC was formed. Let me say this before I end my dialogue with everybody here. You are NOT a Sikh if you believe in idol worship. There is NO argument to this simple as that. What I can't understand is how some people can claim what this Baba said or that Bhai claimed but choose to ignore the very fundemental teachings of the Sikh Gurus. Even to this very day Sikhism is not recognised as a distinct religion in India. Arya Samajists contend Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism. If you believe idol worship is ok and approved in Sikhism, then I humbly request you to stop claiming yourself as a Sikh. You are a pseudo Sikh at the most and in actuallity a Hindu. I say this because many pseudo Sikhs who had one foot in the 'mandirs' and the other in a Sikh temples created havoc for the poor struggling Sikh community in India. Their struggle to identify themselves as a distinct and different religion has been hampered by these pseudo Sikhs. There was a time Arya Samajists when Arya Samajists wanted to be included in the running of Sikh temples. Can you beat that?? A Hindu wants to have a say in how a Sikh temple is run? I would like to apologize in advance if I have offended anybody here.

Jamuka was Genghis Khans best friend. There is a story about the two that was quite inspriritional which is why I chose this name as my handle.

I disagree, NO weight should be attached to this lunatics allegations. Are Jatts and Sikhs from other castes better then Khatris? ook at how conspiracy theories haqve haunted the Jews for time immemorial. This is plain wrong. Besides Sikhs should stand together and not bicker and fight amongst each other. I don't have any online reference but if I'm not mistaken it has been mentioned in history books. It makes sense though coz at the time, the largest followers of Guru Gobind Singh Ji were the Jatt masses despite all the Gurus belonging to the Khatri class. Then again you never know. I never knew Ahlluwalias were not Jatts till Nirnjana made me aware of this.

Here is food for thought, www.evilbible.com,www.jesusneverexisted.com,www.apollonious.net How can one be a heretic when Jesus probably never even existed?

Are you studying to be a chiropractor?

Dear Niranjana, wasn't Maharaja Ranjit Singh a Jatt? Dear PN, this writer may have some points though. I did have a roommate with the last name of Ahlluwalia during my Uni days and oh boy he was a cunning fellow. But I am not going to assume this writers behaviour just because of one bad experience. Jassa Singh Ahlluwalia was a reverd figure in Sikh history. Jatts are no better or worse compared to Khatris. Everybody is the same. He sounds just like one of those right wing Christian lunatics accusing and weaving all kinds of conspiracy theories against the Jews. BTW I know personally of a Nijjhar who have sold his his people out, lock stock and barrell. Has anybody here heard of KS Nijjhar?

Agreed. Whats the point of becoming an Amartari Sikh when it's obvious many are just using this position to have a 'holier then thou' attitude by judging others? Doesn't this behaviour constitute arrogance which inflates one's ego? No point spotting a 'pug' and 'dardi' and becoming an amartari when one has not been able to conquer one's ego. But who are we to judge? I've met Hindus who wear the Sikh bangle hoping to be passed of as a Punjabi Sikh. Should I reprimand them? What does it matter? Who am I to judge? Why don't we see the greater good of this act? Money Sikhs with Singh's or Kaurs would rather identify themselves as Sikhs and isn't that good? Would you want them to denounce Sikhism and join other religions? The Singh and Kaur are words that the Amartaris do not have a monopoly over. If it concerns you so much then I suggest you assume they are Rajput Hindus and not Sikhs. Sikhs are not the only ones using Singh. We copied it off others. BTW how do you know they are Sikhs? You know Beast I really don't see whats the big deal. Hey thanks. It's sad that while Sikhs have not been able to secure a homeland for themselves and Hindu India has caused the biggest diaspora of Sikhs all over the world, here they are fighting among themselves over silly trivial issues as to who has the right to use Singh and Kaur and who isn't. I was always under the impression that the problem was the other way around, whereby many Sikhs of the younger generation refuse to use Singh in their names and have started abreviated their names to first and last eg. Ragbir Singh Randhawa to Ragbir Randhawa. I gues now I know why it's happening. From what I can see the problem among Sikhs are the lack of good and proper leadership. This is why Sikhs around the globe are not united. Sikhs should look at the Jews and learn from them.

Is the SGGS written in Punjabi or Persian? I've gone through it and it does not sound Punjabi at all.

How do you or would you know I'm being sarcastic? I'm not against offerings of food but I am against over emphasisation of mindless rituals. Instead of spending hours in the kitchen preparing all kinds of foods/dishes for SGGS why don't we instead read the SGGS and try to understand it properly? Wasn't this the original purpose of our earlier living Gurus? You are taking what I said out of context. Since you did not quite understand what I was trying to get at please allow me to explain. My point is this, who are making all these rules? Who amongst us are rule makers and who are followers? Do you honestly believe if we don't make such rules, Sikhs would start coming to temples attending to the SGGS unclean? Do you really believe Sikhs today are so stupid that they need such draconian rules to guide them? How are we to produce crops when we are spending most of our time in the kitchen preparing food for SGGS? Like I said before, I am not against preparing food for SGGS but I am against spending 90% of your time preparing food for SGGS. This behaviour constitutes ritualism which is against the very basic of Sikhism. The only difference this behaviour and Hindus revering a stone idol is that Sikhs like you have replaced the stone idol with our SGGS. Do you need rules to tell you to wear clothes? Is that why you're dressed? I'm assuming if there were no such rules you would parade yourself naked in public? You don't have a mind to THINK for yourself and and make a decision wheather such actions violate cultural norms? You need rules and laws in order for you to behave this way? Tell me, why do you not commit murder (assuming you're not a criminal)? Is it because it is against the law or is it because your conciense tells you it's wrong? Yes true but tell me is the SGGS meant for reading and understanding Sikhism better or to treat it similar to how Hindus are treating the Lingam? When it comes to Sikhism I will only refer to what the Gurus have proclaimed. I will not listen to what some Baba said. Bhai Gurdas may have been a very respected figure in Sikh history but he is not a Guru. Do you understand? Why do we have to refer to what Bhai Gurdas said when we have had TEN Gurus to guide us? The very act of refering to Bhai Gurdas displaces the authority of of the Sikh Gurus. You refer to Bhai Gurdas. Namadaris refer to their very own living Guru and Nihangs believe it's a ok to smoke Hashish. Who is telling the truth? To avoid confucion our Gurus have made it very clear, the SGGS is the final reference point when it comes to Sikhism. I am not advocating that what I say is true but this is what I have been made to believe. Are 'Panj Pyare' Guru? Since when? This is news to me. Can you tell me where does it state Panj Pyare are Gurus? I await your reply. Hello, when did I say I am against sewa? The act of sewa is beautiful and I will not hesitate for a moment to do it. But I think there is a difference between sewa in a langar hall that is feeding people from all walks of life as opposed to spending hours in a kitchen preparing endless meals for our SGGS. Don't you think so? Baba Nand Lal Ji spent countless hours washing dirty dishes in the langar hall so that many Sikhs who were penniless (at the time) or without any means to feed themselves were able to do so. Also langar was an act that personified that all men regardless of caste are created equal. Khatris and Brahmins had to sit next to lower castes thus openly ridding themselves of social prejudices that existed at the time. Did Baba Nand Lal spend countless hours feeding Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Even if he did I bet he would have been reprimanded by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. By what means do you arrive to your conclusion? How do you decide a post is sarcastic or intelligent? From what can be seen, Harpreet was literally discouraged by you to ask anymore questions. From what I could decipher from the earlier post, whoever disagrees with you is immideatly judged by you as 'narrow minded' or 'sarcastic'. How are meaningful discussions and learning to take place when members are constantly being judged by the likes of you? This is the first forum I have encountered whereby moderators are also acting in the capacity of a judge. From my experience in other forums, moderators only role is to MODERATE and not DICTATE. There is only one definition of worship and not a few as you would like to contend. You are confusing the meaning of the word WORSHIP with RESPECT. Pouring milk over a statue that represents a God to a member of this religion constitutes worship. The act of 'Metha dekna' to the SGGS in a Gurdwara constitutes an act of respect and NOT worship. This BTW is an age old Hindu custom. You'll note that in an act of respect towards elders Hindus will bow down to their elders and the elders will touch their forheads and in so give their blessings. This act was practised even during the Gurus times so when desciples were to go to the local Gurdwara (Guru da Wara) they will immideatly ask for Gurus blessings by bowing their heads toward the Guru. This is why we 'methna dekhna' toward the SGGS to recieve Gurus blessings and also to as an act of respect So if I don't share the same opinion as you do about Bhai Gurdas I am to be penalised? Is this how you make others be aware about Sikhism? Is this what Sikhism is all about? You are nothing but an intolerant fool who in the position of a moderator in a discussion forum, is misusing the authority vested to you by force fitting your beliefs on those who do not agree with you. Really? How so? Just because I disagree with you makes me a 'spoilt child'? So far you've judged Harpreet to have a narrow mind and now I'm a spoilt child. Hmmmm....missy you have a serious attitude problem. Everybody is bad except you? Pheena wrote Wasn't it LOGIC that dictated Guru Nanak to question mindless rituals within Hinduism? Exactly where did I advocate the SGGS is only a book? My Nani had the SGGS in her house so I know a bit about how it is taken care off. My Nani learnt more about Sikhism via the SGGS and the Guru helped her to face the hardships of life. But my Nani did not spend hours preparing 8 to 9 meals for the SGGS nor did she split hairs to the type of 'rumalla' to be used. The SGGS is the Guru not because it was proclaimed so by our last Guru but because of the MESSAGE it contains. I'm sorry Pheena but you've got me all wrong. I have NEVER advocated in any of my posts that SGGS is a mere book. Show me where did I state this and I will recant what I have said. BTW please don't dismiss logic so easily. If it were not for logic, you and me would probably be praying to a stone statue and the dark ages in the western(Europe) world would have never ended. It is only through logic we can see cruel acts committed by Muslims around the globe as barbaric. Muslims believe a Non Muslim is a Kafir and should be either converted or killed as instructed by their prophet and stated in the Quran. This is a religion/cult that lacks all forms of logic and it is because of this that is contributing to their irrational behaviour. In my humble opinion it was through logic that Guru Nanak was able to see the irrational behaviour of Hindus in Hinduism. It was through logic Guru Nanak realised the act of throwing water toward the sun will not reach ones ancestors in the heavens. It was through logic Guru Nanak saw that the threading ceremony that he had to undergo whe he came of age was a mindless ritual. It is the very illogical nature of Hinduism which is the greatest contributing factor that is resulting in the suffering of millions of low caste Hindus in India. Low caste Hindus look upon High caste Hindus as demi Gods on Earth. Sikhs do not believe in such nonsense because Guru Nanak has freed our minds of such illogical behaviour. This is why the core belief in Sikhism is that all men/women are created equal. Oh yes, I AM in love. But I am in love with the one true God; Satnam Sri Waheguru. Only through love of God will one break their attachment toward worldly things. The SGGS is there for me to achieve this union with the one true God and can only be done so by understanding it and NOT by revering it. If it will satisfy your ego to judge me then be my guest. It's amazing how you can single out my posts and deem it as rowdy and yet overlook the bullying tactics used by a moderator to force her belief on others. And how would you know I am not filled with love? How did you come to this conclusion? You highlight the rehat but you ignore the fundemental teachings of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind concerning idol worship. I am confused, are you a Hindu or a Sikh? If God can be seen in rock why didn't Guru Nanak Dev Ji see it? Why did Guru Nanak after spending three days at the bank of Ravi proclaim "Na Me Hindu ta Na Me Mussalman" (I am neither a Hindu nor a Muslim)? Why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji proclaim he was an idol breaker? If God can be seen through a rock, why do we even need Sikhism? Gur Nanak and Guru Gobind could have just tried to reform Hinduism (as claimed by Hindus) instead of starting something from scratch? Please note, Hindus today falsely believe the Gurus were Vishnu incarnates and were just reformers of the Hindu religion and do not recognize Sikhism as a separate and distinct religion. No, I appreciate your response. It is only through discourse one can excel. By the same token I hope I have not offended you in any way. 'Peace Out' Jamuka

Since when did Maharaja Ranjit Singh become a Sandhu? Wasn't his last name Sukercharia? Besides if I'm not mistaken aren't Ahlluwalias Jatts? Isn't Jassa Singh Ahlluwalia a great Sikh character?

If you ask me Protestants are the more progressive form of Christianity as opposed to Catholics. I don't believe they've dressed up an old and are treating him like a God. To be honest I don't think Christianity will survive for long. I've read compelling arguments stating Jesus did not even exist. The Christianity the world knows todays is based on Paul's teachings.

This is what he posted. Do you understand English? Encourage? I think you're mixing the meaning of the word 'encourage' with 'coerce'. Get your hands on a Oxford dictionary and learn the meaning of the two words.You ENCOURAGE when you use positive reinforcement but you COERCE when you use negative reinforcement. When I say "you should keep your hair because it's good for you"...this implies encouragement but when one states "you're not a true Sikh".. "you're going to hell"..."Guru will hate you if you don't keep your hair"....this is negative reinforcement which is actually coercion and NOT encouragement. As for the 'donations' I was just trying to reiterate to the likes of you that 'Mona' Sikhs are not some 'non contributing','ungrateful' Sikhs as you would like to falsely belief.Why is there so much negativity associated with 'Mone' by Amartari Sikhs in this forum? Who made you all judges? Who is asking YOU to compromise your beliefs? Mone Sikhs are not exactly some dumbasses hanging about the Sikh temples as the likes of you would like to believe. You need to respect them and stop belitteling them. Ooooooh, I'm sooo scared. Help! Help I'm going to be given another warning by the 'Great Moderator'!! Oh no, how will I live with myself? How will I survive??? What 'personal' remarks are you talking about? I was merely stating my opinion in a forum that purpots to have discussions on Sikhism. Your behaviour is hardly scholarly. Everytime someone gives their opinion or asks questions, you jump on them. Instead you are behaving like a dictator in your own little cyber world. Your intolerant behaviour as a moderator in Sikh discussion forum is shocking indeed! Go ahead and ban me for all I care! I think I'm beggining to realise now why so many members here are simply recieving silly warnings and being banned. So much for a 'discussion forum'. It's no wonder so many members here are extremely polite always apologizing ('phull chukk maaf') when there's nothing apologize for. They are obviously scared of being banned. HA! So much for 'awareness', oh yeah I'm aware now.

And lets not give less importance of Sikh suffering in the hands of Hindus as opposed to Muslims. If you ask me East Punjab along with it's Sikh inhabitants would have been better off with Pakistan then India. At least the Pakistanis are Punjabis as well and racially the same to Punjabi Sikhs. Punjabi Hindus are denying themselves their true ethnicity/race for the sake of Hinduism but I think they're finally waking up.

I don't know if you're aware but the word Singh is not just synonimous to Sikhs but to many Hindus too. It existed even before the Gurus time. For example, VP Singh and Vijay Singh are not Sikhs. Besides, who are you to judge who is a true Sikh and who isn't? FYI if I'm not mistaken 90% of Sikhs out there are 'monas'. Do you believe they don't contribute to Sikhism? Who are making the donations and upkeeping the name? Next time you're free you should attend Sunday mass at the local church. Beware, you'll be in for a shock when you see the number of former Sikhs who have denounced Sikhism and have embraced Christianity because of characters like you. Keep it up buddy and some day you'll be going to an empty temple and will probably only be filled with other 'Amartari' Sikhs like you. Then maybe you'll be happy?

Why don't we get a King Size bed instead? The way the discussion is going in this thread I would assume that you would prefer a big comfortable bed that would be to Maharajs liking? Were there mattresses during Guru Gobind Singh's time? Really? Maybe we should get a wind breaker and jakets made out of wool during winter times and light T cotton shirts for during summer? What should the menu be like? What about Stakes and eggs in the morning, a big Burrito for lunch and maybe some 'chow mien' for dinner? As for snacks how about soups and salad? Should we like make sure the foods served are healthy by making it fat free with the correct amounts of nutrients and minerals? What about 'Powerbars'? Did the Sikhs in our Gurus times behave like this? Did they like shower and anoint themselves with nice smelling perfuems before they met the Sikh Gurus? Did the Gurus get angry or refuse to meet a desciple who was unclean? You mean to say the Guru feels cold during the winter and hot during summer? Should we also place a heater and AC beside the SGGS? Who makes or made these rules? Were these rules prescribed by our earlier Gurus? Maybe there is some sort of Hukam? Serving with full 'prem' to the point one's actions is similar to a mentally deranged person? How is this different from those Hindus who pour milk and honey over Lord Shivas statue when they pray to it? Sahaljleen Kaur Khalsa wrote Excuse me but isn't Sikhism AGAINST idol worship and silly rituals? Didn't Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself proclaim that he is an 'idol breaker'? Are you advocating that we should pray to a stone? BTW in supporting your argument, you should stop referencing to Bhai Gurdas or any other Baba or Bhai. They may be respected Sikhs but they are not a Guru thus they are NO authority on Sikhism. This is merely your opinion which if you ask me is not much.So we should spend 24/7 preparing food for SGGS? Ahem...excuse me but the last time I checked this was a forum for discussions on Sikhism. Who are you to judge who is narrow minded and who is not? Who made you judge? Wrong. Guru Nanak and the other Gurus NEVER advocated that Sikhs should be 'worshipping' the SGGS. Where does it state that Sikhs must worship the SGGS? I challenge you to prove me wrong. Your statement is ludicrous. Nobody even 'worshipped' any of the living Gurus and now you are advocating that Sikhs should worship the SGGS. Babaji was not Guru so whatever he said means zilch to all Sikhs. He may have been a respected figure but when did he become an authority on Sikhism? Hell yeah!! Who is he? Who appointed him ad hoc Guru? Excuse me but shoudn't a moderator remain impartial? You are sure as hell acting like one. I hate to be the bearer of bad news to you but it has happened in this forum before (not by you) and if you ask me the behaviour of that moderator was quite disgraceful. What about online versions of thr SGGS? Do we do the same? Do we like put 'parshad' near our PC's? Or if we have a CD version, should we treat it the same way we treat SGGS?

Really? Can you please provide the exact quatation from the SGGS?

A lost cause and thank God for that! I suspect a bunch of Sikh version of Mullah types. A 'Khalistani' pipedream not only excludes Punjabis of other religions but also of non Khalsa Sikhs as well. It's no wonder it never was successfull. No rational,sane person of sound mind today would want to live in a religious theocratic state, not even a majority of the Sikhs out there. The only time the Sikh ever had a state of their own was under Raja Ranjit Singhs time and if you study history you'll realise it was a secular state and not theocratic. This is why it was successfull. ms514 wrote A democracy cannot exist in a theocratic state. Look at the Akal Takth. Is that a democratic institution? ms514 wrote HA HA!! Parliament would probably be having strong debates and meetings to decide wheather Sikhs should be sitting on the floor or chair in the langar halls! gdhaliwal23 wrote Why do we need a 'Khalistan' to live in peace in harmony? As for religion not surviving, how did Judaism survive for more then 2 thousand years with Jews having no country for that time? Hari wrote Thats because most Sikhs today are Punjabi Jatts. Go conduct a poll and you'll find out. Hari wrote If that were the case, they should then have advocated a 'Jattland' instead of Khalistan. At least in this way they could have got the support of Hindu Jatts as well! I don't think it's fair for the likes of you to simply belittle the Jatt contribution. Remember this and remember it well, it was the Jatt masses who supported Guru Gobind Singh Ji whose loyalty was unquestionable DESPITE no Jatt was picked as a Guru.It was again the Jatts who revived Sikhism through the Singh Sabha movement. It was the Jatt masses among the Sikhs that finally realised a Sikh state under Raja Ranjit Singhs rule. Besides, the Jatts are not the highest in the caste hierarchy. Among Sikhs it is the Khatris that are the highest. What you say does not make sense. Punjabi Nationalist wrote Agreed. Even if Punjab had a majority Sikh population, I would still not want a theocratic Khalistan. Agreed. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! Dear PN I never knew you had a great sense of humor!! I laughed till the tears streamed down my cheeks!! Amen to that!! I say NO to Khalistan but a YES to a secular free and independant Punjab!! Unfortunately, even a secular Punjab will remain a dream unless Sikhs stop bickering with each other over stupid issues ie;casteism,turban vs monas, sitting on the chair or floor in temple langar halls,self appointed 'Babas' acting like living Gurus.....