angy15

That is your believe you coming from sanatan dharma

You have sacrificed your lifetime practising Hindhu rituals.

What is your stand on Bah I have said this pauri might be corrupted . Read carefully .Why do you think this miracle was done.

Some members in this forum are of the opinion miracle is part of Gurmat But The sacrifices of our Gurus shows us otherwise.Cling to the belief in miracles, then we are undermining, mocking and degrading our Gurus out of our sheer arrogance which is laced with a lot of ignorance . Can you just imagine how Guru Arjan was put on hot plate and tortured to death .The walls built around Chota Sahibzadey bury them alive beheading our ninth Guru, Guru Teg Bahadar all these were the true miracles which our Guru performed. Not the petty road side magic tricks thanks to our deras taksalis babas of going for a joy ride on some disney land somewhere in outer space bringing some scared food and oranges .Ridiculous Sadly these miracles were imported by Nirmalas into the Sikh way of life from Hinduism and the other Semitic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), where they are used regularly as snake-oil rub for all cures. It is irrelevant, insignificant and unimportant what some members think abt miracles . The reason being that the Sikhi way of life is idea-based, not personality-based, and it is my honour and privilege to follow what Guru Nanak taught me re how to lead a life of a seeker through Naam Japna, Kirat karni and Vand ke Chhaknah .

Is it for me?

So don't reply to my response either . I am not interested to debate with pujaris like you .

It seems you have doing lot of simran and must have attained brahmgyan and also attained miraculous powers and also believe in Karamat .Why dont you show some karamaat to us. My choice of karamat would be in regards to Varan 1 pauri 36 taking me to to other worlds and bring back sacred food ha ha ha no oranges back Also you have not answered How Red is the heaviest color in maya? .Is it your brahmgyan or a borrowed knowledge.

@DeNiro, @chatanga1, @Reader Let me ask you do you accept Akal Takht parvanith "SIKH REHAT MARYADA ". Yes or No. Second question related to this forum Do you agree with Bhai Ranjit Singh Dhadriyanwala proposal of EK SIKH REHAT Maryada. I want all you three please answer .Let us see where you guys stand regarding SRM .

@DeNiro It would be better you discuss in regards to Topic of Discussion which is Dhandrianwala Vs Akauthi Taksali . i am not intereseted to discuss my personnel sadhana with you .

Why you ask that? what has this related to the topic

So what is the point you are making.

Only shows where your belief is coming from A Typical banarasi Pujari reply you have given. If at all was to prove a point he would have done it through vichar and bibek buddhi and Not by showing karamat .Go and read Sidh Ghosht and educate yourself .

So you have drifted away from Miracles to rehat and its presence in SGGS.You have not answered the shabads which mentions rejecting these miracles. I now you pujari are always nervous to discuss shabads from the gurbani.What you are doing is discussing something which is not mentioned in Gurbani .Your desperation to for the proof says it all. Now coming to your questions .Lets take first three When you asking for tukhs to prove your its shows total arrogance on your side regarding understanding of Gurbani. SGGS has a universal spiritual message which imparts guidance and assistance to not only sikhs but to all humanity:Khalsa rehat is kept outside as Hindus ,Muslim will be more comfortable to accept gurbani without a belief/rehat . SGGS p 1299 (Rag Kaanra M: 5) ਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੈਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਗਾਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥੧॥ Naa Ko Bairee Nehee Bigaanaa Sagal Sang Ham Ko Ban Aaee ||1|| No one is my enemy, and no one is a stranger. I get along with everyone. ||1|| SGGS p 1349 (Rag Parbhati Bhagat Kabir) ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥ Eaek Noor Thae Sabh Jag Oupajiaa Koun Bhalae Ko Mandhae ||1|| From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. Who is good, and who is bad? ||1|| Verses like these in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji explain it all — that our Guru ji is all embracing. All are equal in his eyes. Our own deeds and spiritual values define whether we are a loving human being or not . We know that Sikhi is for the within and that Sikhi has elements for the external as well. The context now is to affirm that in Sikhi what is within is more important than the external appearance. So lets look more Gurbani verses for guidance. SGGS p 476 (Rag Asa Bhagat Kabir) ਗਜ ਸਾਢੇ ਤੈ ਤੈ ਧੋਤੀਆ ਤਿਹਰੇ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਤਗ ॥ Gaj Saadtae Thai Thai Dhhotheeaa Thiharae Paaein Thag || They wear three-and-half-yard long loin-cloths and triple-wound sacred threads. ਗਲੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਜਪਮਾਲੀਆ ਲੋਟੇ ਹਥਿ ਨਿਬਗ ॥ Galee Jinhaa Japamaaleeaa Lottae Hathh Nibag || They have rosaries around their necks, and they carry glittering jugs in their hands. ਓਇ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਤ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਾਨਾਰਸਿ ਕੇ ਠਗ ॥੧॥ Oue Har Kae Santh N Aakheeahi Baanaaras Kae Thag ||1|| They are not called Saints of the Lord – they are thugs of Benares. ||1|| Here the external emblems – clothes and religious symbols – all are critiqued as being pretentious if we don’t have God within us. Above verse is not only applies to hindus but also for rehat keeping sikhs In pauree 27 and 28 of Japji the outer symbols and ‘rehat’ of the yogis is discussed and the conclusion is that what is within (values such as santokh and saram) are paramount and of higher standing in the eyes of God than the external symbols themselves. Yes there is Khalsa rehat which outside the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Sikhs accept it .It might not be acceptable to Hindus and Muslim but still they want to follow the message of SGGS. So this is the reason rehat is not mentioned because it will take away the universal essence and will be limited to sikhs only. Says Kabeer, I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord; I teach both Hindus and Muslims. ((4)(4)(13)) SGGS Page 479 This anwers your first three questions Now the fourth question "4) where does it say we have to do Metha tek to Guru Granth Sahib Ji and not turn our backs to it. BY your own definitions this is idol worship." Don't force these assumption on someone . Again lets ask this question to Guruji and this is what he says SGGS P 594 (Salok M: 3) ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨੋ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ Sathigur No Sabh Ko Vaekhadhaa Jaethaa Jagath Sansaar || All the living beings of the world behold the True Guru. ਡਿਠੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Ddithai Mukath N Hovee Jichar Sabadh N Karae Veechaar || One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad. So message is clear if vichaar of the shabad is not done than bowing in front is merely a idol worship . In fact this verse altogether important for Taksali ideology who have their foundation on ritual practices of Gurmat . So this answers your fourth questions.

What a dumb question you have asked.Gurbani is never written on assumptions which otherwise in further will be proven wrong. If we assume for your sake of argument that gurbani says Earth is flat and science proofs earth is round.offcourse any wise man will Believe gurbani is wrong. But it's a ridiculous hypothesis you are making.

You are a true keshadhari banarasi Brahmin fascinated with rope snake tricks.

Your Answers lies in the question itself the problem you are not able to digest it. You tell me which of three points were followed before Guru Gobind Singh.

@Reader Brother Miracles are mostly fiction .They are opposite of hukum as it means nature /God is not trustworthy .GURMAT is all abt HUKUM and BANNA. Black Crows becoming WHITE SWANS after bathing in the sarovar ( IN Nature no SPECIES can CHANGE to another species...crows will forever be crows !!...) IT IS HIS HUKUM. The miracles that NANAK did in the corrupted Varan is trivia these are not miracles. Let me tell you a story since you guys love mystical stories. In India ,One day a great saint who was well known for his miracles came to see Ramakrishna . Ramakrishna was sitting on the river bank in Dakshineshwar near Calcutta, where the Ganges becomes so huge and so beautiful. The saint was very proud of the miracles that he used to do. And he had come with the specific purpose of showing Ramakrishna that his religiousness is worthless. He said with great pride and ego in his heart, "What are you doing sitting under a tree? Let us go for a walk on the Ganges, on the waters." Ramakrishna said, "You have come a long way. Just rest a little and then we can go for a walk on the Ganges." The man sat down and Ramakrishna said, "Can I ask one thing: how long it took you to learn the art of walking on water?" The man said, "Almost thirty-six years." Ramakrishna laughed and he said, "When I want to go to the other shore - just two paise, and that too, the boat-man never takes from me, seeing that I am a poor man. Thirty-six years you have wasted on an art which is only worth two paise. You must be an idiot." Even if you can walk on water, it does not make you spiritual, it does not give you a glimpse of the divine. On the contrary it takes you further away from God. You become more egoistic, because you can do something which others cannot do.( Tales and Parables of Sri Ramakrishna ) So the corrupted (Varan 1 pauri 36) is just similar to this story . This what NANAK means when he says ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੩॥ -seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3|| So in NANAK Philosophy their is no place for Miracles. SATNAM

I had said what is the stand of SGGS on miricales So many self contradictions in your reply .i can feel arrogance and frustrations in your reply. Again you have proved that you believe Sikh religion being a miraculous and ritualistic religion like hindu religion Its not abt they can't .They have rejected the miracles altogether : ਸਿਧੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਲਾਈ ਰਿਧਿ ਆਖਾ ਆਉ ॥ Sidhh Hovaa Sidhh Laaee Ridhh Aakhaa Aao || If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ (ਮਃ ੧) (੧) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੪ ਪੰ. ੬ Sri Raag Guru Nanak Dev ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ਬੈਸਾ ਲੋਕੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਭਾਉ ॥ Gupath Paragatt Hoe Baisaa Lok Raakhai Bhaao || And become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ (ਮਃ ੧) (੧) ੩:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੪ ਪੰ. ੭ Sri Raag Guru Nanak Dev ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੩॥ Math Dhaekh Bhoolaa Veesarai Thaeraa Chith N Aavai Naao ||3|| -seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3|| Doesn't make sense because Hukam and miracle are opposite of each other. How foolish the theory is.Nanak performed some miricale to prove a point to a Phir somewhere near mecca to show his son some worlds and bringing back some food from somewhere from outer space . But same Guru Nanak did not perform any miracles when Darbar Sahib was attacked innocent Sikhs were killed. Its purely a mythical adultered story This is very bizzare .No sense in this argument. What rehat was followed before Guru Gobind Sing.please tell the audience.What rehat Kabir,Farid and Bhatts had?Were they sikh? . Let me make it clear to you even after taking amrit you are not pure sikh as long as you dont follow the teaching of SGGS .Taking amrit alone doen't define a sikh . Regarding the varaan 1 pauri 36(corrupted) please tell us what is the spiritual message /nourishment do you get . By performing miracle hasn't Guru Nanak strayed away from the path : ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੩॥ -seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3||

All they have done is hijacked the true Sikhi and infected it with their ideology/mythical stories .And result are in front of us ignorance ofphilosophy of SGGS and youth drifting away from Sikhi. Don't be in fool impression that Sikhi is flourishing its sliding down because of these infected ideology.

Are they influenced by Taksali Idealogy or Missionary .What abt Sikhphilosophy

First of all this verse is not from SGGS. I have stated earlier also whatever stuff is said or spoken and if suspected it must be BENCHMARKED against SGGS messgae. Now literal meaning of the last four pauris shows some sort of miricales being performed. What you are trying to convey to the audience is Guru Nanak like Santan Dharam indeed performed miracles.So your belief is that Sikh is a miraculous and ritualistic religion like any other religion. Now let us try to benchmark this Pauri of Bhai Gurdas with SGGS. Take a look at this shabad from SGGS ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਪਹਿਰਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਹਿਵੈ ਘਰੁ ਬਾਧਾ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਕਰਾਈ ॥ ਸਗਲੇ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਣੀ ਕਰਿ ਪੀਵਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਹਾਕ ਚਲਾਈ ॥ ਧਰਿ ਤਾਰਾਜੀ ਅੰਬਰੁ ਤੋਲੀ ਪਿਛੈ ਟੰਕੁ ਚੜਾਈ ॥ ਏਵਡੁ ਵਧਾ ਮਾਵਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਭਸੈ ਨਥਿ ਚਲਾਈ ॥ ਏਤਾ ਤਾਣੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕਰੀ ਭਿ ਆਖਿ ਕਰਾਈ ॥ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਤੇਵਡ ਦਾਤੀ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਕਰੇ ਰਜਾਈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਉਪਰਿ ਸਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥੧॥ Page 147 ਅਰਥ: ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਅੱਗ (ਭੀ) ਪਹਿਨ ਲਵਾਂ, (ਜਾਂ) ਬਰਫ਼ ਵਿਚ ਘਰ ਬਣਾ ਲਵਾਂ (ਭਾਵ, ਜੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਇਤਨੀ ਤਾਕਤ ਆ ਜਾਏ ਕਿ ਅੱਗ ਵਿਚ ਤੇ ਬਰਫ਼ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠ ਸਕਾਂ) ਲੋਹੇ ਨੂੰ ਭੋਜਨ ਬਣਾ ਲਵਾਂ (ਲੋਹਾ ਖਾ ਸਕਾਂ) , ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਹੀ ਦੁੱਖ ਬੜੇ ਸੌਖ ਨਾਲ ਸਹਾਰ ਸਕਾਂ, ਸਾਰੀ ਧਰਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ ਤੋਰ ਸਕਾਂ, ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਤੱਕੜੀ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਤੇ ਪਿਛਲੇ ਛਾਬੇ ਵਿਚ ਚਾਰ ਮਾਸੇ ਦਾ ਵੱਟਾ ਪਾ ਕੇ ਤੋਲ ਸਕਾਂ, ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਇਤਨਾ ਵਧਾ ਸਕਾਂ ਕਿ ਕਿਤੇ ਸਮਾ ਹੀ ਨ ਸਕਾਂ, ਸਾਰੇ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨੱਥ ਕੇ ਤੋਰਾਂ (ਭਾਵ, ਆਪਣੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ ਚਲਾਵਾਂ) ਜੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਇਤਨਾ ਬਲ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ, ਕਿ ਜੋ ਚਾਹੇ ਕਰਾਂ ਤੇ ਆਖ ਕੇ ਹੋਰਨਾਂ ਪਾਸੋਂ ਕਰਾਵਾਂ (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਹ ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਤੁੱਛ ਹੈ) , ਖਸਮ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਜੇਡਾ ਵੱਡਾ ਆਪ ਹੈ ਉਤਨੀਆਂ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼ਾਂ ਹਨ, ਜੇ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ ਸਾਈਂ ਹੋਰ ਭੀ ਬੇਅੰਤ (ਤਾਕਤਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ) ਦਾਤਾਂ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਦੇਵੇ, (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਹ ਤੁੱਛ ਹਨ) । (ਅਸਲ ਗੱਲ) ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ) ਜਿਸ ਬੰਦੇ ਉਤੇ ਮਿਹਰ ਦੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ (ਆਪਣੇ) ਸੱਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਇਹਨਾਂ ਮਾਨਸਕ ਤਾਕਤਾਂ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਵਧ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਹੈ) ।1। Another shabad rejecting miracles ਸਿਧੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਲਾਈ ਰਿਧਿ ਆਖਾ ਆਉ ॥ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ਬੈਸਾ ਲੋਕੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਭਾਉ ॥ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥ If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe - seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 14-6 So simply Guru Nanak if were to able to do all these unnatural acts none of this miracles will provide any benefits to the humanity all these will give false ego. Guru Nanak refutes miracles in his dialogue “Sidh Gost”, which leads astray one from the path of spirituality and truth. The same Bhai Gurdas also says Maria sika jagati vichi Nanak nirmal panth chalaia. If at all Guru Nanak performed miracles then their is nothing Nirmal abt it .All kind Miracles qand rituals were already performed before his birth then what was unique in his miracles . So we can definitely see the contradictions of this Bhai Gurdas vaaran with SGGS .So painstaking research is required to remove the adulterated elements from his Varran.

How are u relating it to Dhandriwala.totally irrelevant. Plz provide the vaaran number if you need proper reply. Don't throw up grabage what you feel like.Plz stick to discussion in hand.

Majority of Sikh have started rejecting Taksali ideology .Just few days back Dhumma came for katha at manji sahib in Darbar Sahib and only 20 odd sangat were sitting their to listen to him and his katha was totally out of sync with the hukamnama,He is no match to Dhandrianwala intellect .Punjab Sangat are becoming more aware of Tat Gurmat and rejecting vedantic Gurmat . Well it just a matter of few years taksali ideology will be meaningless.

He doesn't have to justify anything.Whole world knows what are taksali known for goondagardhi

Attack on dandriamwala in USA by few handfull of goonda taksal.we can see blockhead Jaswinder Singh too. Now these Few goondas will decide what 1000-2000 sangat can hear or listen.