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angy15 last won the day on December 26 2018

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  1. You too can run off from the discussion just like him.
  2. I don't know what dhadri might have said but i do definitely know what my Gurus have said abt reciting bhram kavach both in SGGS and Dasam Granth .Let me quote you one shabad from Dasam Granth ਭੂਜੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਯਾਤ ਛੰਦ ॥ ਬਿਨਾ ਸਰਨ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਨ ਅਉਰੈ ਉਪਾਯੰ ॥ ਕਹਾ ਦੇਵ ਦਈਤੰ ਕਹਾ ਰੰਕ ਰਾਯੰ Without coming under His Refuge, there is no other measure for protection, may be a god, demon, pauper or a king. ਬਿਨਾ ਸਰਨ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਨ ਕੋਟੈ ਉਪਾਯੰ ॥੭੬॥ May be the Sovereign and may be the courtiers, without coming under His shelter, millions of measures for protection will be useless. 76. ਜਿਤੇ ਜੀਵ ਜੰਤੰ ਸੁ ਦੁਨੀਅੰ ਉਪਾਯੰ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲੰ ਬਲੀ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਯੰ ॥ All the creatures created by Him in the world will ultimately be killed by the mighty KAL. ਬਿਨਾ ਸਰਨ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਨਹੀ ਔਰ ਓਟੰ ॥ ਲਿਖੇ ਜੰਤ੍ਰ ਕੇਤੇ ਪੜ੍ਹੇ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਕੋਟੰ ॥੭੭॥ There is no other protection without coming under His shelter, even though many Yantras be written and millions of Mantras be recited.77.  Choice is yours whom to follow Gappi Thakur or Guru Gobind Singh .
  3. Well it seems some members who were debating "Science conflict with Guru Nanak philosophy did not reply with any evidence how does it? This is my understanding of Concept of God both in terms of Gurbani Science and this also reply to @ chatanga from where this misunderstanding originated. Lets conceptualize the God of Guru Nanak: 1. God was created by itself from Sunn and exists forever 2.Then he created the Nature(Laws of Nature,Laws of Universe) and pervades in it 3.Every action and reaction in the universe and in the living beings is happening under the LAws of NAture 4. God is Agam(Inaccessiable) and Agochar (Unfathomable) 5. Their is no effect of time and space on God. Therefore from above points we can see God of Guru Nanak is Transcendant Entity (beyond our comprehension) that means God is Nirgun and also Sargun in respect of it being laws of Nature Famous cosmologist and mathematicians Stephen Hawkings defined God as: "Yes,If God is meant the the emoidment of the 'laws of the universe'" Great philospher Baruch Spinoza said God is nature .Nature is the true expression of God.And each of us are part of it When above quote was posed to Albert Einstein do you believe in God? His answer I believe in God of Spinoza It is clear that modern scientists and philosopher are thinking about God in the same line as conceptulized by Guru Nanak . An interesting article on Science and Philosophy of Guru Nanak ARTICLE 1: SCIENCE EXPLAINS TRUE RELIGION? | Science ਸਾਇੰਸ ਨੇਂ ਤਾਂ ਅਸਲੀ ਧਰਮ ਦੀ, ਵਿਆਖਿਆ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ **Is the saying “religion begins where science ends” actually valid?** **A powerful discussion on the validity of the so-called “Science Vs Religion” debate** Contrary to popular belief, can it be that science has in actual fact explained and interpreted TRUE RELIGION? The cover-up of true religion with hocus-pocus magic has been fashioned through distorted interpretations by self-proclaimed “God-men”, people who had created their own religion or had desired their own following. What has happened is that another’s product has been re-branded as one’s own. It is man which has altered himself to become a part of a man-made religion. How can one be branded as a Muslim or a Hindu or a Christian etc when the product source is the same, when the creator is one? Religion itself cannot be made by man. The true religion is that which is already made by the Creator God. It is universal. One cannot make religion, one can only become religious. A religious person is that person who follows the laws of God. Worshipping God is following the laws of God. If one walks into fire, they will burn. That is the law of the universe. One cannot defy the law of gravity, a law which is applicable to all beings on the planet Earth. The laws of God are applicable to all, it’s only the laws of man which are applicable to their own sect. That person which understands these true laws of God is indeed religious. Science has interpreted many of God’s laws. Whereas some have waited for magic planes to fly them to the heavens, science has allowed hundreds of people sitting in an aircraft to fly through the skies across the world. Science has done this by understanding the laws of God. Perhaps religion is God’s laws, and science does not go outside of those laws? In fact, it would be impossible for science to go outside of such universal laws, the laws of God. Then science is that which explains the laws of true religion, i.e. not the laws of a religion made by man, but THE religion of God? Science cannot go against such laws. Science will understand that it’s the ear which hears the sound, then after understanding that law of God it will invent hearing-aids. Science will interpret the laws, then it will develop remarkable creations like the flying passenger aircraft, mobile telephone communication, cameras, sound systems etc. Then why is it some people have said science is wrong, that science and religion cannot mix? Science is an explanation of God’s religion, not a religion made by man. The saying “religion begins where science ends” is perhaps not a notion which necessarily sits well with the philosophy of the Sikh Guru’s.
  4. @Jageera I think You are talking a lot but saying nothing.
  5. Don't get confused we are debating Whether the concept of God as described by Guru Nanak is in conflict with Science?
  6. I am more fascinated abt your above claim .Do you really believe what you wrote. It doen't matter what Dhadri speaks abt. But those who believe in Braham Kavach distrust Guruji bani of SGGS and DG . I have quotedhow Gurbani rejects it.
  7. Mr Jhangeera : I could not find answers to my question in your reply. Let me repharase again to you Do you see any conflict in Guru Nanak's philosophy and Science when it comes to concept of GOD? Why he shouldn't .Hasn't our asks us to use our God given gifts of intelligent discrimantion (Bibek Buddhi) to avoid irrational rituals and superstitions which you guys advocate . Sikhi is faith which encourages to question irrational practices and beliefs in the name of religion.Our Gurus are role model for us.A wonder example is the saakhi of his visit to Haridwar offcourse he should go to a university because our deras are dysfunctional both at spiritual level and scientific level. Infact a Sikh should see God's Glory in science ,any discovery made by science is a celebration of the marvels of God and his creations .There are so many references in Gurbani expressing the exhalations of the creator (Kadar) through praising his creations(Kudrat). In Kritan Sohlia out Guru sees all of nature constantly doing aaarthi and glorifying God.
  8. Are you really from australia.Your response like this suggests you belong to a remote backward area of a poor under developed country. Using mantras to do things in physics,chemistry,enginerring. what ridiculous justification. How has 10000 of Yugs ,havans and mantras benefited history of India?Not at all .All it gave us is 1000 years of slavery.Fake mantras like Braham Kavach what benefits has it done to sikh community NOTHING.Really you guys are not doing any justice to the name of this forum. Do some research in SGGS and DG and find out how mantra ,jantras are rejected by our Gurus
  9. Look I am not going in for silly argument with you for first two question and this was not in respond to your any query .Its crystal clear what i have said .If You dont understand leave it. Regarding Mool Mantar where does Science conflicts with Mool Mantar? Stephan Hawkins concept of God was "Yes , If by God is meant emboidment of the laws of the universe " t that is similar to concept of Nanak's viewpoint
  10. You believe Science cannot not prove or understand God.(It depends what kind of God you are referring to ) a. So let me know through you What is Nanak definition or understanding of God? b. Why do you believe rationality and Gurbani are not compatible?I believe Sikhi encourages rationality
  11. Thats a good piece of information you have given and I would like to add some more to it . 1. Contextual Analysis :Understanding a passage in the context of the stanza 2. Principle of Gurbani Interpetations: Principles that will help us accrately interperet the shabad of SGGS.These principle are embedded in the SGGS itself.We don't need to go beyound the boundaries of SGGS to determine the meaning of scriptures . As i stated earlier in this discusiion SGGS interpret itself. 3. The Grammatical Principle : involves the study of words meaning ,grammar and synthax for proper understanding of scripture. Prof Sahib Singh and Missionaries holds on to these principles while interpreting Gurbani.
  12. Similarities between Saudi Cleric (in the video ) and Gappi Thakur Both are stand up comedians of their respective faiths having common syllabus
  13. No one(personally I aleast ) is rejecting it all together infact one can find few key historical incidences in the lives of Guru from these Samprdiya texts.But their are many stories recorded in it that cannot pass the test of Gurbani ,Science and logic and these texts has done more harm than good to sikhi . It is very important to do research and critical analysis in this regard to provide authentic Sikh History
  14. Yes one can find terms of Gurbani in Vedaanta but that is different from saying one can find "understanding" in the vedanta. One can find the terms "hardware, mouse,mother,board etc in a 4000 year old dictionary.But the "understanding " that a 21st century computer needs relating to these words cannot be found out in that 4000 year old dictionary . The mouse of 4k old dictionary is not the mouse of the 21st century computer knowledge . Guru Nanak used the words of spirituality of that were prevalent in those or before him but he either (a) redefined them (b) critiqued them. My guru studied it researched it and gave us their conclusion ਬਹੁ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਹੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ ਪੇਖੇ ਸਰਬ ਢਢੋਲਿ ॥ ਪੂਜਸਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਅਮੋਲ ॥੧॥ Its a self contradictions you are making you said we need to study vedas to understand vedanta.but we shouldn't read all shabads to understand Guru revealed shabad.What the purpose of 1429 pages if there no need to study it all , again a classic tactics of drifting sikhs away from Gurmat. Regaading Logic @tva prasad thats defing logic: just because something is older doesn,t mean its TRUER For example for 1500 years Christian believed and accepted that the sun sun revolved around the earh .But Galileo did not have any tradition .We can say for the same for any discovery -NO TRADITION. Actually entire human knowledge is based on science and logic their isn't a single language that is devoid of grammar.Our Guru deployed the tradition of grammar ,science and logic .the matter of fact that these truths took sikh hundred of years to discover and delay was primarily because it was hijacked for centuries
  15. Its clear from your arguments that your believe Guru Nanak has simply recycled the message already revealed in vedas and associate hindu text there is nothing Nirmal in Nanaks Enlightened Philosophy its just reformed and simplified Sanatana Dharma of medieval times & this is what Sikhi has become a esotreic,mystic ,mantra chanting ,ritualistic religion known as sikhism today . While Guru Nanak was busy challenging the ancient mythology ,cast division and rituals which have their origins in classical hindu texts the irony that after few centuries if we examine the effects of teaching Guru Nanak on Sikhs in particular it is not difficult to come to conclusion that what sikhs are doing today is contary to Nanak Philosophy because of entrapment in layers with vedantic philosophy or lack of understanding of Gurbani. You boosting of "Sampradays having a long history and thus taking their ideas seriously" , we can see what nirmalas has reduced sikhi to how its being practiced today whether its chanting of jap banee to fullfill your personnel desires or slaughtering of animals in Gurudwaras or doing arthee ,havaan Tsumani of akand paths etc etc . How were these Nirmalas were able to infilitrate into psyche of Sikhi can be traced to time of Banda Singh Bhadhur where majority of Sikhi were living in the forests and during this period preaching of Gurbani feel into the hands of anti gurmat forces and during 18th and 19th century where the sikh insitutes were still under Anti Gurmat forces all sikh history and literature published were full of misinterpetations of Gurbani .Any effort taken by any scrupulous Sikh scholar to preach authentic sikhi were treated very badly and this is been done even today. . But all is not lost we have a School of Modern Scholars like Prof Sahib Singh ,Principle Teja Singh and many more contemporary scholars and missionaries who are showing Gurbani can be interpreted through gurbani context and not outside and they are the real threat to sampridya traditions. I believe Gurbani is for here and Know. Most important question of Nanak Philosophy "How to become Sachiaar" and SGGS has all the ingredients to help us to become Sachiaar only we sikhs have to use bibek buddhi to understand it. Yours and other Sampridyas understanding of Gurbani is well described by Prof Puran Singh in1920 : "It is to be regretted that Sikh and Hindu scholars are interpreting Guru Nanak in the futile terms of the colour he used, the brush he took; are analyzing the skin and flesh of his words and dissecting texts to find the Guru’s meaning to be the same as of the Vedas and Upanishad! This indicates enslavement to the power of Brahmanical tradition. Dead words are used to interpret the fire of the Master’s soul! The results are always grotesque and clumsy translations which have no meaning at all."
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