Arsh1469

Firstly I want everyone to share their opinion on this. This is not a debate this is just to share opinions.

I believe that these hindu gods kinda exist. By that I mean I belive they are legandary and I believe Gurbani says the same. Legendary meaning people like them existed but the storys are likely embellish or false.

One point people bring up to show that the Guru supports their existence and all the events associated with them is chobis avtar. This path was wrriten by Guru Gobind Singh no denying that but what style of writing/genre is it. I belive firstly it a translation the Guru gave to the people with his katha. I also belive that much of this is just literature. By that I mean the guru doesn't inted for us to take this literally. It is wrriten to teach a moral/lesson or to motivate us. 

My opinion looks at Gurbani but also looks at historical evidence. In this part I will only talk about the 2 main epics. So from a historical perspective the Mahabharata like the Iliad is a story about likely a true war (Seems to be more evidence for the trojan war) which has been extremely embellished to make an epic. So it is probably history combined with myth making legend. I couldn't really find much on the Ramayan other than Ravana having a kingdom on Sri Lanka doesn't match the archeological evidence. 

At the end of the day all these hindu texts were wrriten by poets not historians. They are here to tell a story NOT HISTORY.

On 5/23/2021 at 11:21 AM, Kaur1510 said:

@Arsh1469  Thank you very much, Very simple explanation in plain English.

 Just noticed that you have read the explanation in Punjabi and translated in English here. Thank You

Look forward for the next post. 

I read it in English and just summarized. To get this book go to Lulu (Book website) seech up Kamalpreet Singh Pardeshi and get part 1 on japji sahib

 

Japji Sahib Katha 1 countined

Guru Ji added the numeral 1 to show there is no duality. There is only 1 God. Oankar can be split into two separate syllables when trying to find the meaning. The first part is Aum and the second is Kar. Aum can be split into 3 different letters which are A,U and M. The three letters represent the word Akar,Ukar and Makar. The word Akar represents Brhama. Ukar represents Vishnu and Makar represents you gussed it Shiva. According to Hinduism the three demi gods are considered most sacred and are responsible for the welfare of creation. Brhama the creator. Vishnu the provider or sustainer and Shiva the destroyer. This shows that Aum represents the trinity. Kar represents the formless lord whom is known as Vahguru. Kar is placed on top of Aum to show they gain there powers form Vahguru.

Akar, Ukar, Makar and the Ardhbind (Kar), when all four come together  and form one then understand this to be Oankar (Adhyatam Ramayan)

The Sidhs hearing this asked why add the numeral 1 it is not in the Vedas. So why do this.

Guru ji said "Our faith is for everyon and all of humanity. The Mantra Aum in the Vedas is knly for the Brahmin social class of people as they can both listen and recite it. The social class of Kshatris can listen to Aum but cannot recite. The social classes of Shudras and Vais cannot listen to or recite  the mantra. All of the women from all four of the social clasdes cannot listen to or recite the mantra of Aum. By placing the numeral one in front of the mantra, Oankar we show that God has no duality and Ik Oankar can be read and recited by anyone from any background. Those people who say Ik Oankar will be saved.

For this reason, we have created this mantra for all of the people in the world. Just as a cloud showers all the people with rain, in the same way God is showering all of the people of the world with grace and love. Regardless of race, gender, colour, creed, social class etc. Unlike the Aum mantra everyone has the right to recit this Ik Oankar.

To be countined...

Just want to add all I wrote was from a translation of katha and steeks by Giani Kamalpreet Singh Ji who also added vidya from other sants too. 

Here is the bibliography

 

It is on GurmutVeechar.com This is not just from Katha but also Steeks by Sant ji which were translated into English by Giani Kamalpreet Singh Ji 

1 hour ago, sevak said:

Can you send me the youtube link for this katha?

I am aware of sikhsangat.com. Its a highly politicized forum, with very little actual Sikhi discussion. 

 

Part 4 

Creation of Japji Sahib

One day while Guru Nanak Dev Ji was at Kartarpur Bhai Lehnna Ji who would be Guru Angad. Mahraj did seva of the sangat. They asked him four questions. Those were

1. What path does your religion take

2. What is the mantra you use for the name of God

3. What is your Mool Mantar

4. What is your Mala Mantra

To the first one Mahraj said there faith focused on the worship of Vahguru.

To the second he said we use the name Vahguru.

(Fun fact Maha Sant and Sarbloh Bani says that Vava comes from Brahma who created the Mantar of Vasnudev. Haha from Manu Raja (Son of Brahma) He gave the Mantar of HarHar. Gaga from Rishi Vyas who gave the mantar of Govind and lastly Rara from Shankaracharya who gave the mantar of Ram. Then Guru Nanak came and gave the ultimate Vahguru Mantar)

Bhai Lehna did not know the answer to 3 and 4 so he asked Guru Nanak. To 3 Guru Ji says that the roots of the Mool Mantar are from Vahguru.

And finally Guru Ji says our Mala Mantra is Japji Sahib which is mostaly conversations with the holy men. (Sidhs)

Katha

Basic Translation

Ik = One with no equals Oankar = Gives Gian(Knowledge)

There is one Vahgir who Gives Gian and no one is even near the leval of Vahguru

Sat = indestructible

God cannot be destroyed 

Nam = well known 

The name of God is well known.

Karta = Creator of all

God created everything including the universe

Purkh = complete

God is complete 

Nirbhou = no fear

God is fearless

Nirvair = No enmity

God is without enmity

Akal = immortal 

God does not fall into death

Murat = form

The form of God is immortal 

Ajuni = exempt from transmigration 

God is exempt from transmigration

Sai Bhan = Self enlightened

God is self enlightened

Gur = Perceptive and conscious

God is the form of perceptive and conscious being

Parsad = Supreme Bliss

God is the form of Supreme bliss

Jap = referring to the name of the path

Originally called Jap Sahib or Jap Nisan

Aad = Primal beginning Sach = truth

God was true at the start before creation

Jugad =  Numerous ages Sach  = Truth

God has been true through the 4 jugs and the jugs before

Hai bhi = still is Sach = Truth

God is still true right now

Nanak = Guru Nanak says Hosi Bhi = in the future Sach = truth

Guru Nanak says God in the future will remain true and the form of truth

Deep definition 1

Guru Nanak on their travels to save the world from Kaljug went to Mount Sumer. Where he meet 84 Sidhs and there leader Gorakh Nath. The Sidhs asked Guru Ji what power brought him here.

Guru Nanak said "O, Sidhs. I have come here with the strength of the almighty lord who is known as Ik Oankar."

The Sidhs said "According to teh Vedas the name of God is Aum. Why have you used Ik Oankar."

Guru Nanak said Aum stands for the trinity. Each of whom represent attribute of Maya. Which are Passion, truth and darkness. They represent illusion. Due to this we have created Ik Oankar. The numral 1 to show there is one God who has no equals. We have wrriten this due to there being 63 different terms for Oankar which cause contoversy in Hinduism. There are 3 different forms of God givien each with the form of the trinity, which become nine. There a 7 different knowledgeable people who have each given nine forms. That makes the total 63. (Sorry if the above was confusing) 

They are

1. The first theory called the Hirangarb, which is created by Brahma. The names and forms of Oankar are Trimatra Rup Tribrahm Rup and Triakhar Rup (Tri for the trinity)

2. Kapal Muni says the names are Trigian Rup Trigun Rup Trikaran Rup

3. Aptar Muni says they are Trimukh Rup Tridevta Rup and Tripyarojan Rup

4. The order of Sanat Kumara are Trikal Rup Triling Rup and Trisangya Rup

5. Brahmnishant state the form are Tristhan Rup Tripad Rup and Tripragya Rup

6. The order of Shiva is Trai Avashta Rup Trai Bhog Rup and Trai Bhogata Rup

7. The order of Vaishnav's and Narad Muni is Triatama Rup Tri Subhav Rup and finalky  Tribyhu Rup.

This is why Guru Nanak put a Ik as all had three showing duality.

The Christians believe God in three forms Holy Sprit, The father and The son

Muslims belive God in two forms which are God and the Prophet.

To be countined...

Part 3 

Guru Nanak authenticity

1) Vedic Authenticity

There is much proof written in many scriptures predicting Guru Nanak

Examples are Gopal Tapni Upanishad, Bhagwat Purana Etc.

Gopal Tapni Upanishad says

I pay my salutations to the one God who is the form of supreme truth, supreme consciousness amd complete bliss. He is the one who rescues all from distress; he is understood by the Vednats and the Vedas. He is the supreme Guru and is the witness within the heart of everyone

Bhavishat Purana says

The Guru is Brhama, the Guru is Vishnu and the Guru is Shiv. God is the supreme Guru to all and gives all the same great teachings. I pay salutations to the Supreme Guru

(Brhama is believed to be 100 Brhama years old which means 311 TRILLION HUMAN YEARS 

OLD. He has 4 heada to represent the Vedas and the objects in his hands have meanings too like Vishnu. First a spoon which is used to pour butter in ceremonies. Second is a coconut or water vessel to remind a person that water is likethe ether that surrounds a persond during pregnancy. Thirdly is a Lotus flower to show he is forever mediating on the lord (My own interpretation is that the lotus flower is to show he resides bowing on Gods lotus feet) Finally is the Vedas)

Guru Nanak was also predicted by Rishi Ved Vyas who wrote 12 saloks in the 28 Adhyai Bhavishat Puran. The texts says on Adhyai 28

In the future when all Dharam is lost in the age of Kaljug. 33. Then there will be a requirement for one to protect those from the invaders. In the future the great Bedi clan will give rise to Guru Nanak. 34.

2) Lokik Authenticity

People from Guru Nanak's time saying he is the messenger of God. 

In almost every // Bhai Gurdas Ji says Guru Nanak is a messenger of God. Also in SGGS the Bhatts write of Guru Nanak being a messager of God. Also Brham Parkash by Pir Shamas says

Sri Guru Nanak gained peace. He contemplated on the words of God. I practiced it with convection. 47.

With so much evidence we 100% know Guru Nanak is true and bigger then a Puran avtar. But Guru Gobind Singh Ji still gives one more huge piece of evidence.

3) Savi Authenticity  

Words wrriten from the Gurus following Guru Nanak

Guru Ji then quoted Ang 53, 750 and 850

This evidence proves Guru Nanak is not a Devi Devta Guru Nanak is God.

Ram was the Avtar of Power. He is attributed to truth.

Krishna was the Avtar of passion and royalty. He married 16,108 Gopis and a large amount of India is related to him as he had 161,080 sons and 16,108 daughters. Totalling 177,188 children. 

(Fun fact the reason that Krishna married so many Gopis is because in their previous life they did ardas that they will be able to marry Vishnu)

Parasram was the avtar of darkness and evil.

They all possed one of the three main virtues.

Guru Nanak possesed them all. 

After this the sangat asked why did Guru Nanak come and why did he create Jap Ji sahib. 

Guru Nanak came in the the worst moments of Kaljug. God came his self as even Vishnu could not save the world from Kaljug.

Guru Ji then said there are four main corner stones of religion.

1) Raja Lok 

Thses are kings who uphold divine command. However in Kaljug they were all corrupt

The state was so bad kings started to destroy other religious temples and replace it with their religions. 

They were not Dharmic Kings they were tryants.

2) Tirath

Tirath means place of worship. And at these places the name of God and Dharam had disappeared. People who vist these places boast about it and increase their own ego.

3) Mahatama.

The true Sants were gone and the Sants were corrupt and fake making people worrship them.

4) Brahman

Brahmans were meant to uphold the words of Brahma but became corrupt. Brahmans now days just smoke and commit sins.

Due to these sins the earth transformed itself to the form of a cow and meet the Devta of mercy. They both went to see Brahma in order to gain assistance. Brahma said he can do nothing.

They went to Vishnu and he said

"I have come many times and will come again at the end of Kaljug. I am unable to help now as I am too weak. You must ask Akal for help."

All the Devi Devta representing the people came and made a plea for help.

God said "I have sent many people to preach the truth though they all fell to their ego. I will come in 10 forms. In 8 of the 10 forms I will use the metaphorical sword of holy word to destroy falsehood. In 2 I will use the literal sword."

Brahma asked where and to who will you be born.

God said he will be born in Talwandi to Baba Kalu Jia and Mata Tripta Ji. 

Then at full moon on 1469 CE Guru Nanak was Born.

Guru Nanak is Greater then a Puran avtar

Guru Gobind Singh Ji went on to explain the five attributes

1 Shakti

Ram showed his powers to his mother. When his mother went to pray to Devi he replaced the image with an image of himself. To show his powers.

Krishna too did this. Krishna pretended to eat dirt so when his mother forced him to spit it out she saw his mouth and saw the whole world. The entire universe.

Guru Nanak had a different miracle. At amrit vela all the devi devta came to worship Guru Mahraj. He was put on a throne like a Maharaja. He was given massages with sandalwood. They placed flowers around his neck. They said To Mahraj ji "O protector of meek you are the true king. You are Vahguru in a Sargun roop. You will save the world and humanity. You are the protector of Devi Devta."

At this point Mata Tripta awoke who was around her son. All the Devi Devta disappeared. She saw Guru Ji in Saffron and sandalwood all over him. The smell was overwhelming. She now lnew Guru Nanak was Vahguru. To pervent his mother from finding out he put maya in his moms mind. Then Guru Ji started to cry. Mata ji forgot everything that happened.

For this reason Guru Ji can't be called less then Ram and Krishna.

He is greater because he has more then the 16 powers and abilities.

Once a cobra gave shade to Guru Nanak while he was sleeping. Once a tree gave shade even though it broke logic as teh sun was in the opposite direction. Also Guru Nanak moved Kaaba. Guru Ji stopped a Rock. 

Other avtars used miracles to boost their popularity and ego Guru Nanak used them to guide people and save them. He never did miracles to boost his own ego.

He used them to destroy ego.

Krishna had 16 powers Guru Nanak had infinite.

2 Viakti

Guru Nanak is greater then all other avtars. Ram and Krishna cut their hair in their lives. Not even in his youth did Guru Ji even dream of cutting hair. When Ram meet some royal maidens they tried to marry Ram but Ram said he will satisfy their needs in Dwapar. ( Fun Fact Satjug the Golden age is 1,728,000 years long Treta the silver age is 1,296,000 years long Dwapar the bronze age is 864,000 years long Kaljug the iron age is 432,000 years long. Numbers are from Adhyatam Parkash)

In Dwapar the maidens became Gopis and Krishna had sexual relations with many of them. 

Both Ram and Krishna could not eradicate Lust.

When Guru Nanak went to Sri Lanka the beautiful women tried to enchant Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Guru Nanak destroyed their lust through Gurbani. The began to Jap Naam and became Gursikhs

The shabad Guru Nanak says is on ang 1187 of SGGS.

Guru Nanak did not fallen lust he destroyed it.

3 Pragya

Ram made Rishi Vashisht his vidya guru. He spent 64 days with him. He then spent 8 days with Rishi Vishwamitar. 

Krishna made Rishi Darbasha his vidya guru. He soent 8 days with him. He then spent 64 days with Rishi Sandipan.

For Guru Nanak the teachers did not teach him he taught them. Gur Nanak needed no Vidya Guru. He learned Shastar Vidya by himself and taught Baba Buddha Ji who would teach Guru Hargobind shastar vidya when the time was right.

4 Kartab

Ram lived 10,000 years. He only did miracles when he was in exile. Ram made a promise that no kid should die before his parents. A son of a Brhaman later died. He acused Ram of liying and having now power. Ram said the child died because of a low caste person meditating in the jungle. Ram beheaded the low caste person.

By accident Ram fought against his 2 kids his entire army including Ram was killed. Sita later brought him back to life. Still Ram gave his reign to his children due to his attachment.

Krishna after killing the Kans named his maternal grandfather king as he had attachment towards his family.

Guru Namak however spemt the firs 28 years of their life working then were brought to Sachkhand where he was given the Mool Mantar. He never did Ustat of anyone other the Vahguru. Guru Nanak rather then killing evil people enlightened them and saved them. Unlike avtars of Vishnu.

(Fun fact Vishnu has 4 arms which all have symbolic and metaphorical menaings. First a conch shell in the upper left hand. This represents Oangkar which led to the creation of life and of Vishnu. Second a spinning disc called a chakra. It is in the upper right hand and represents destroying a persons ignorance and giving Gian. Thirdly a mace in the lower left hand. This is to represent spiritual power and to uplift purity. Finally in the right bottem hand is a lotus flower. Thsi is to represent liberation and being attached to nothing)

He had no attachment to hsi children and didn't pass the Gurgaddi to them. He made people Sants regardless of Race, cast, gender etc.

During Guru Amardas Ji's life no one in Gobindwal died of anything.

Ram live 10,000 years Krishna lived 1,000 years. Both barely traveled. Guru Nanak in 70 years nearly traveled the entire old world (Old world being Europe, Asia and Africa. Som say Australia too) Guru Nanak did so much Parchar in 70 years and gave the mantar of Sachkhand (Mool Mantar)

Guru Nanak was like no other avtar

The samgat then asked for authenticity the Guru Ji said

I originally made this on Sikhsangat time to post it here.

Part 1

I have started reading my english tika by Sant ji and it is very deep. I will quote some parts I really liked. 

The Importance of Japji Sahib

Kavi Santhok Singh Ji says about Japji Sahib In the way a rice husk is useless without a grain of rice, a Sikh is useless without having memorized Japji Sahib.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji says to Guru Angad Dev Ji those who recite Japji Sahib with their heart will gain a seat close to me.

Guru Ji also says The individual who forgets Jap Ji knowing it divinity is commiting sucide by jumping into the lowest pits of hell

When Guru Tegh Bhadur was going to acced to sachkhand he recited Japji Sahib and his head came off even before he was executed.

I have not told all the stories as I want to focus on the main katha.

Japji Sahib Katha

An Introduction

One time a Sikh asked Guru Gobind Singh Ji what type of an avtar is Guru Nanak. According to the Hindu belief there are 6 types of avtars they are the following

Ansa Avtar

An avtar who is a Dharmic Raja.

Avesha Avtar

An avtar to give darshan to his devotees.

Nit Avtar

God as a Sant or Mahapurkh

Namitak Avtar

Avtars like Narsingh and Bawan who came to protect Vahgurus Bhagats

Puran Avtar 

An Avtar whohas 16 divine attributes and characteristics (Only Krishna)

Puran Tam Avtar

Is only the Guru Sahibs as the Guru needed no teacher to teach them.

According to Bhindran Sampardama They are the following

Ansa Avtar

A Dharm Raja like Manu

Avesha Avtar 

An Avtar not born with powers but through meditation gains them. Example is Parasram(Parasram means Ram with an axe. He destroyed corrupt kings and destroyed ego.

Kalka Avtar

An avtar who has some powers and has only one thing to do. Example Mach avtar who used 2 of the 16 powers to save the Vedas

Nit Avtar

An avtar as a Sant or Bahgat

Namit  Avtar

An avtar that disappears after doing his one task. Example Narsingh avtar.

Puran Avtar

Ram and Krishna. Ran had 14 powers while Krishna had all 16

Tye 16 qualities are the following

Knowledge, Attention, Virtiuous Acts, Persistence, Moderation, Righteousness, Charity, Skill, Meditation, Loving acts, contol over lust, Spiritualism, mecy, Solemn Promise, intelligence and a Clear Mind

The 16 powers are

Earth, water, fire, wind, sky, Vital air for breathing, organs, name of god, actions, faith, place in society, devotion, Incantation,  deaire, semen and physique

The the sangat asked is Guru Nanak a Puran avtar or not.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said Guru Nanak Was Greater then a Puran avtar