Mehtab Singh

Bandi Chhorr Diwas diyaan lakh lakh vadhaiyaan

N30 Singha, aha thread nu vi taala maar shadd yaar...gal samjh aagi sab nu...LOL

Do you?

Hahahahahaha!!

awwwwww!!!!!

A so-called "Sikh scholar", a self-proclaimed "alim" "reverts" to his "core" religion, and you think Sikh forums wouldn't have that as news? If you think so, guess who is the loser then? LOL!

Mehtab Singh you should seriously consider a career in Tehran as a parot fortune teller. You have these guys who use a parrot to pick up a poem from Hafez for a few tomams. The way you use Maharaj's gurbani for any occasion is truly blasphemous.

I'd rather be employed in the court of Dasmesh Pita Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj as His dog. All this temporary and Persian currency wealth is mubarak to you. And no I have not committed blasphemy, as I was stressing on tony veer's point that we Sikhs are indeed Gurujee's dogs, and would love to remain so forever. Blasphemy is calling Gurujee lower than a Rasool and an Imam, which contradicts Gurbani as well. I never ever have and never ever will do that. And yes I will quote Gurbani at every occasion because a Sikh's life revolves around Gurbani. No way is that blasphemy. But you wouldn't understand that, would you.

I thought you wanted to be left alone, which is why I didn't bother responding to you, and responded only to other posters, and didn't even bother adding you to msn after you sent me a pm asking me to add you for a chat. Why are you hesitant to speak up here? What is it that you don't want to talk about on here and want to chat on msn? Sorry I am not interested. You can't have things always your way buddy. I sent you probably 1 or 2 pm's like past 2 months asking about Islam, and those were pretty much general questions. You didn't bother replying. And now since the tables have turned, we have nothing more left to talk as both sides have clarified their stand. You didn't respond when I had questions. Now there is nothing left to ask or talk about. You could very well think that I am "scared" to talk to you if that makes you feel better LOL! But chatting on msn is the last thing that could scare even a chicken, forget about scaring the slaves of SatGuru Jee.

Be consistent in what you say. You say Gurmukh and hypocrite at the same time, you say you dislike Punjabi Sikhs, then you say you are indifferent to them, you say you want to be left alone, and then you yourself start communicating again and ask for more by asking to be added to msn. You say you don't bother about what Punjabi Sikhs think, so why did you start this thread in the first place? If you are not bothered, why did the fact that your "reversion" news was all over the net concern you so much? Make up your mind.

No we don't subscribe to any white master. 93 out of 121 who were hanged by the British were Sikhs. 66% of Azad Hind Fauj started by Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose were Sikhs. Majority who were shaheed at Jallianwala Bagh were Sikhs. The reasons behind why Sikhs sided with the British in 1857 have been clarified by tony veer already.

This is getting boring now. I think all of us have bid you farewell more than once and wished you enough luck in future. Are you seeking attention or what? Or is it a guilt that makes you post messages so that you can console yourself that you did the right thing? If you are so firm about what you've done (which you say you are), then just get on with life man. You don't have to prove anything to anyone. The reason why your "reversion" made a "big news" was because you (again, as claimed by you) were supposedly an "alim", a "Sikh scholar". Not only have you lost all your credibility by going back on your words ("I will never become a Shia"), but all the stuff you've been preaching about has become questionable even by those who look up to you (referring to the ones left with sanity).

I hope the mods/admins realize that this thread doesn't need to go on for a week as initially planned, as everyone has had a chance to say their share. It is pretty obvious that neither you, nor any of us are going to budge from the stand that we hold. You say you don't intend to convert anyone (hopefully this time you won't go back on these words), and we definitely don't intend to make you want to come back into Sikhi, as that is solely in Gurujee's hands, and we are not going to market/sell Sikhi as some people of other religions do to their faiths.

I think this thread has run it's course. Time for those who were so eager to talk up Bahadur as some kind of authority on Sikhi to reassess their views.

The only authority on Sikhi is Dhann Dhann Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj. Even a Singh/Kaur who is strict and firm in their Rehit will never even by mistake claim to be an authority on Sikhi. So yes, as tonyhp32 veer said, rather than seeing a person as such, everyone should recognize only Dhann Dhann Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj as the single authority in their life.

Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Raag Raamkalee on Ang 969

sMqw mwnau dUqw fwnau ieh kutvwrI myrI ]

sa(n)thaa maano dhoothaa ddaano eih kuttavaaree maeree ||

I honor and obey the Saints, and punish the wicked; this is my duty as God's police officer.

idvs rYin qyry pwau plosau kys cvr kir PyrI ]1]

dhivas rain thaerae paao paloso kaes chavar kar faeree ||1||

Day and night, I wash Your feet, Lord; I wave my hair as the chauree, to brush away the flies. ||1||

hm kUkr qyry drbwir ]

ham kookar thaerae dharabaar ||

I am a dog at Your Court, Lord.

Baukih AwgY bdnu pswir ]1] rhwau ]

bhoukehi aagai badhan pasaar ||1|| rehaao ||

I open my snout and bark before it. ||1||Pause||

pUrb jnm hm qum@ry syvk Ab qau imitAw n jweI ]

poorab janam ham thumharae saevak ab tho mittiaa n jaaee ||

In my past life, I was Your servant; now, I cannot leave You.

qyry duAwrY Duin shj kI mwQY myry dgweI ]2]

thaerae dhuaarai dhhun sehaj kee maathhai maerae dhagaaee ||2||

The celestial sound current resounds at Your Door. Your insignia is stamped upon my forehead. ||2||

dwgy hoih su rn mih jUJih ibnu dwgy Big jweI ]

dhaagae hohi s ran mehi joojhehi bin dhaagae bhag jaaee ||

Those who are branded with Your brand fight bravely in battle; those without Your brand run away.

swDU hoie su Bgiq pCwnY hir ley KjwnY pweI ]3]

saadhhoo hoe s bhagath pashhaanai har leae khajaanai paaee ||3||

One who becomes a Holy person, appreciates the value of devotional worship to the Lord. The Lord places him in His treasury. ||3||

koTry mih koTrI prm koTI bIcwir ]

kot(h)arae mehi kot(h)aree param kot(h)ee beechaar ||

In the fortress is the chamber; by contemplative meditation it becomes the supreme chamber.

guir dInI bsqu kbIr kau lyvhu bsqu sm@wir ]4]

gur dheenee basath kabeer ko laevahu basath samhaar ||4||

The Guru has blessed Kabeer with the commodity, saying, ""Take this commodity; cherish it and keep it secure.""||4||

kbIir dIeI sMswr kau lInI ijsu msqik Bwgu ]

kabeer dheeee sa(n)saar ko leenee jis masathak bhaag ||

Kabeer gives it to the world, but he alone receives it, upon whose forehead such destiny is recorded.

AMimRq rsu ijin pwieAw iQru qw kw sohwgu ]5]4]

a(n)mrith ras jin paaeiaa thhir thaa kaa sohaag ||5||4||

Permanent is the marriage, of one who receives this ambrosial essence. ||5||4||

give him 5 years....

he'll get bored and roll on back....and we'll all be debating his newest conversion to another random faith

This is not fair. You repeated my comment. I demand compensation.

LOL just kidding yaar

awwwwww...ok chal i leave u kalla...have fun...and a happy married life...and spiritual journey...LOL!!!

Hor fer kiddaa...everyone had breakfast/lunch/dinner...wherever they are on this planet...???

Bhai Gurdas called Guru Nanak "Zaahar Pir Jagat Gur Baba". Not just Pir. In fact he starts off, "Satgur sacha paatshaah beparvaah atha sahaaba". True to form, Bahadur Ali finishes off just as he started: twisting and telling half-truths.

Anyways, it's time to let our friend Lalleshwari/Javanmard/Shamsher/Bhadur Singh Nirmala/Bahadur Ali move on. Good luck to him.

At the same time we should take note and learn a lesson: this individual used to regularly write that such and such people aren't Sikhs and others are bemukh and still others are "Ram Raiyas". It's nothing less than ironic that he himself has become a "Turk" while all the "non-Sikhs" he was labeling are doing just fine.

What we plant is indeed truly what we must one day harvest.

BOLAYYYYYYYYYYYY

SOOOOOOOOOOOO

NIHAAAAAAAALLLLL

S A T S R I A K A A L !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mehtab Singh, I never claimed my conversion had anything to do with Panjabi Sikhs. I don't care about what you think of me, my future or my beliefs. What I find strange is that I know nothing about you guys but you seem to know far too much about my private life. Chuglian chuglian...

Hahahahaha!!! No dude, chuggli would be me talking about you and you not knowing it. But hey, guess what, its all here in front of you! So its technically not chuggli. And you can't really blame someone sitting on the other side of the planet knowing stuff about you if you yourself post it on an online public forum, can you? I didn't quote anything said by someone else, rather said by you.

And no my life isn't as adventurous as yours LOL, so not a whole lot worth knowing LOL! Anyways, no hard feelings man (Bahadur Ali says : "Like I'd care" LOL). Hope you realize/attain whatever you intended to when you embraced Shia-Sufi Islam (the only genuine aspect of Islam).

Khuda Hafiz

ps: Omid varam ke shoma faramush na mikonid ke akhlaq chist!

Jey mennu ehda matlab pata hunda te jwaab vi de dinda. Jo kehna sidda keh darda kaanu aa LOL. Fikar na kar, hunn tennu shitter Singhaan ton ni pene. Jina ton pene ohna di nassal ch tu shaamil ho gya aa LOL.

There is a difference between having a different respectful opinion about the Gurus and blasphemy.

If your so-called "respectful" opinion is degrading, I wonder what a "blasphemous" opinion would be like.

I surely didn't commit blasphemy.

Yeah and I have been glorifying you throughout!

You do this professional gurmukh hypocritical move: slander someone for 2 pages using gurbani quotes and the saying: O Veer Ji I have nothing against you!

Make up your mind. "Gurmukh" and "hypocrite" isn't the same thing. And yes I don't have anything personal against you. Just as you don't see how you are speaking against Gurujee, I don't see where I have slandered you. Maybe now you would understand what I meant.

I don't have a problem with the Gurus

No one would care if anyone did either.

I just don't like the Panjabi Sikh community and I have very good reasons.

Disliking an entire community and having reasons tantamount to stereotyping and maybe even racism. Feel free to have it, but don't be saying now that you follow the religion of love. Love isn't selective, that you love a few and don't love another few.

I don't hate Panjabi Sikhs mate...I am indifferent to them.

Once again, make up your mind. You dislike them but you don't hate them? Ok I know there is a difference. A very politically smart statement there.

If you had loved Gurujee at all, you wouldn't be bothered by "Punjabis" and "Jatts" at all. In fact you had love solely for Maula Ali (whom I respect a lot as well) to begin with, so please don't blame your conversion on Sikhs. I have read your posts here where you have, maybe in a fit of rage, given out personal info about your personal life. All I can say that you were treated badly by Punjabi Singhs, and had to go through a number of bad experiences because you are of Portuguese descent (this is all from what you have stated) and not a Punjabi. I am not giving out other details because I have respect for your privacy. But these are no reasons to brand an entire community with a particular negative label in order to cover up for what you plan to do.

You made claims that you will never become a Shia! Now what do you have to say to that? What kind of credibility do you have now? Anyways, enough of this ranting. I just hope history doesn't repeat itself, that a couple of years from now you don't say the same things about Iranians/Shias that you say today about Punjabis/Sikhs.

his reason is love.. why does he need to explain.. love is unexplainable..

Thats perfectly fine. But what about the "low life Punjabi Sikhs"? Why am I not seeing love there? Or am I blind to it? But wait, isn't love supposed to be blind? And by the way, if Bahadur veer had love for just One SatGuru, why would he need to "revert"? Its obvious that he had certain Shia beliefs as well (which I am no one to judge or call wrong). Its always best to cross the river in one boat and not 2. The good news is that he has chosen his boat. The bad news is that he is badmouthing (and I repeat, he is probably doing it unknowingly/unintentionally...but Gurujee knows best whats on his mind) the boat he was in for a long while.

How does one attain kirpa from guru sahib?

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Mundhaavanee Fifth Mehl on Ang 1429

slok mhlw 5 ]

salok mehalaa 5 ||

Salok, Fifth Mehla:

qyrw kIqw jwqo nwhI mYno jogu kIqoeI ]

thaeraa keethaa jaatho naahee maino jog keethoee ||

I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; only You can make me worthy.

mY inrguixAwry ko guxu nwhI Awpy qrsu pieEeI ]

mai niraguniaarae ko gun naahee aapae tharas paeiouee ||

I am unworthy - I have no worth or virtues at all. You have taken pity on me.

qrsu pieAw imhrwmiq hoeI siqguru sjxu imilAw ]

tharas paeiaa miharaamath hoee sathigur sajan miliaa ||

You took pity on me, and blessed me with Your Mercy, and I have met the True Guru, my Friend.

nwnk nwmu imlY qW jIvW qnu mnu QIvY hirAw ]1]

naanak naam milai thaa(n) jeevaa(n) than man thheevai hariaa ||1||

O Nanak, if I am blessed with the Naam, I live, and my body and mind blossom forth. ||1||

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Bhairao on Ang 1142

BYrau mhlw 5 ]

bhairo mehalaa 5 ||

Bhairao, Fifth Mehla:

siqguru myrw bymuhqwju ]

sathigur maeraa baemuhathaaj ||

My True Guru is totally independent.

siqgur myry scw swju ]

sathigur maerae sachaa saaj ||

My True Guru is adorned with Truth.

siqguru myrw sBs kw dwqw ]

sathigur maeraa sabhas kaa dhaathaa ||

My True Guru is the Giver of all.

siqguru myrw purKu ibDwqw ]1]

sathigur maeraa purakh bidhhaathaa ||1||

My True Guru is the Primal Creator Lord, the Architect of Destiny. ||1||

gur jYsw nwhI ko dyv ]

gur jaisaa naahee ko dhaev ||

There is no deity equal to the Guru.

ijsu msqik Bwgu su lwgw syv ]1] rhwau ]

jis masathak bhaag s laagaa saev ||1|| rehaao ||

Whoever has good destiny inscribed on his forehead, applies himself to seva - selfless service. ||1||Pause||

siqguru myrw srb pRiqpwlY ]

sathigur maeraa sarab prathipaalai ||

My True Guru is the Sustainer and Cherisher of all.

siqguru myrw mwir jIvwlY ]

sathigur maeraa maar jeevaalai ||

My True Guru kills and revives.

siqgur myry kI vifAweI ] pRgtu BeI hY sBnI QweI ]2]

sathigur maerae kee vaddiaaee || pragatt bhee hai sabhanee thhaaee ||2||

The glorious greatness of my True Guru has become manifest everywhere. ||2||

siqguru myrw qwxu inqwxu ]

sathigur maeraa thaan nithaan ||

My True Guru is the power of the powerless.

siqguru myrw Gir dIbwxu ]

sathigur maeraa ghar dheebaan ||

My True Guru is my home and court.

siqgur kY hau sd bil jwieAw ]

sathigur kai ho sadh bal jaaeiaa ||

I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru.

pRgtu mwrgu ijin kir idKlwieAw ]3]

pragatt maarag jin kar dhikhalaaeiaa ||3||

He has shown me the path. ||3||

ijin guru syivAw iqsu Bau n ibAwpY ]

jin gur saeviaa this bho n biaapai ||

One who serves the Guru is not afflicted with fear.

ijin guru syivAw iqsu duKu n sMqwpY ]

jin gur saeviaa this dhukh n sa(n)thaapai ||

One who serves the Guru does not suffer in pain.

nwnk soDy isMimRiq byd ]

naanak sodhhae si(n)mrith baedh ||

Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.

pwrbRhm gur nwhI Byd ]4]11]24]

paarabreham gur naahee bhaedh ||4||11||24||

There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||

Who would EVER need to go elsewhere?

Please keep the insults in your head, you can (raab maaf karye) release them on your future wife, she will welcome them whole heartily. ( I had to, no offense just a little islam humor, Allah maaf karye)

Veeray please lets keep penji out of this. We got nothing against her, and in fact not even against Bahadur veer. You are right we are only after his reasons, not him or penji. Gurujee bless them both.

Yup. Another thing is that Akaal Purakh is attained by Guru's kirpa. Gurparsad! Our efforts are useless without that. By the way, nothing in Gurbani condones/supports idol worship, and neither does anything support tota-rattan. The basic rules therefore become love (for Akaal Purakh that a Sikh has) and kirpa (of SatGuru Jee in order to attain Akaal Purakh).

1. I didn't revert to seek acceptance of a community but to please Allah (swt)

2. I haven't done it for someone of the opposite gender even though I am going to get married to my Iranian fiancée.

3. I have never insulted the Gurus nor shall I ever do Mehtab Singh. Just because I say how low many Panjabi Sikhs doesn't mean I insult the Gurus. Get this out of your head right now.

when i write "Asalamu Alaik Ya Hazrati Nanak Shah shams-e-darvishan

" it's to honour Guru Nanak. Stop your ignorant comments please.

The only part I agree to in that post is that I am ignorant.

I haven't done it for someone of the opposite gender even though I am going to get married to my Iranian fiancée.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

I have never insulted the Gurus nor shall I ever do Mehtab Singh.Maybe you didn't mean to, maybe you didn't do it directly, but calling Gurujee "less than" Hazrat Muhammad Sahib or Imam Ali is no less than insulting for any Sikh. "Sab te vadda SatGur Nanak"

when i write "Asalamu Alaik Ya Hazrati Nanak Shah shams-e-darvishan

" it's to honour Guru Nanak

You could honor Him as a Sikh as well. But alas...

If you had stuck with Dhann Dhann Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj, you wouldn't have to go anywhere.

You said Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee Maharaj was a Shia Sufi ?

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Bhairao on Ang 1136

BYrau mhlw 5 ]

bhairo mehalaa 5 ||

Bhairao, Fifth Mehla:

vrq n rhau n mh rmdwnw ]

varath n reho n meh ramadhaanaa ||

I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan.

iqsu syvI jo rKY indwnw ]1]

this saevee jo rakhai nidhaanaa ||1||

I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end. ||1||

eyku gusweI Alhu myrw ]

eaek gusaaee alahu maeraa ||

The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

ihMdU qurk duhW nybyrw ]1] rhwau ]

hi(n)dhoo thurak dhuhaa(n) naebaeraa ||1|| rehaao ||

He adminsters justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||

hj kwbY jwau n qIrQ pUjw ]

haj kaabai jaao n theerathh poojaa ||

I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.

eyko syvI Avru n dUjw ]2]

eaeko saevee avar n dhoojaa ||2||

I serve the One Lord, and not any other. ||2||

pUjw krau n invwj gujwrau ]

poojaa karo n nivaaj gujaaro ||

I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.

eyk inrMkwr ly irdY nmskwrau ]3]

eaek nira(n)kaar lae ridhai namasakaaro ||3||

I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||

nw hm ihMdU n muslmwn ]

naa ham hi(n)dhoo n musalamaan ||

I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

Alh rwm ky ipMfu prwn ]4]

aleh raam kae pi(n)dd paraan ||4||

My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

khu kbIr iehu kIAw vKwnw ]

kahu kabeer eihu keeaa vakhaanaa ||

Says Kabeer, this is what I say:

gur pIr imil Kuid Ksmu pCwnw ]5]3]

gur peer mil khudh khasam pashhaanaa ||5||3||

meeting with the Guru, my Spiritual Teacher, I realize God, my Lord and Master. ||5||3||

Gurujee went to Mecca because He was a Muslim?

puCx Kol ikqwb nUM vfw ihMdU kI muslmwnoeI]

pushhan khol kithaab noo(n) vaddaa hi(n)dhoo kee musalamaanoee||

They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book whether Hindu is great or the Muslim.

bwbw AwKy hwzIAW SuB AmlW bwJo dovyN roeI]

baabaa aakhae haazeeaaa(n) shubh amalaa(n) baajho dhovae(n) roee||

Baba replied to the pilgrim hajis, that, without good deeds both will have to weep and wail.

ihMdU muslmwn doie drgih AMdr lYx n FoeI]

hi(n)dhoo musalamaan dhoe dharagehi a(n)dhar lain n dtoee||

Only by being a Hindu or a Muslim one can not get accepted in the court of the Lord.

jW bwbw su`qw rwq nUM v`l mihrwby pWie pswrI]

jaa(n) baabaa suthaa raath noo(n) vaal mehiraabae paa(n)e pasaaree||

When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,

jIvn mwrI lq dI kyVHw suqw ku&r ku&wrI]

jeevan maaree lath dhee kaerrhaa suthaa kur kuaaree||

the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.

lqW vl ^udwie dy ikauNkr pieAw hoie bjgwrI]

lathaa(n) val khhudhaae dhae kiou(n)akar paeiaa hoe bajagaaree||

Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.

tMgoN pkV GsIitAw iPirAw m`kw klw idKwrI]

tta(n)go(n) pakarr ghaseettiaa firiaa maakaa kalaa dhikhaaree||

Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.

hoie hYrwn kryn juhwrI ]óò]

hoe hairaan karaen juhaaree ||aa||

All got surprised and they all bowed.

Gurujee was "below" the Rasool and Imam because He was a Shia Sufi?

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Soohee on Ang 749

sUhI mhlw 5 ]

soohee mehalaa 5 ||

Soohee, Fifth Mehla:

ijs ky isr aUpir qUM suAwmI so duKu kYsw pwvY ]

jis kae sir oopar thoo(n) suaamee so dhukh kaisaa paavai ||

When You stand over our heads, O Lord and Master, how can we suffer in pain?

boil n jwxY mwieAw mid mwqw mrxw cIiq n AwvY ]1]

bol n jaanai maaeiaa madh maathaa maranaa cheeth n aavai ||1||

The mortal being does not know how to chant Your Name - he is intoxicated with the wine of Maya, and the thought of death does not even enter his mind. ||1||

myry rwm rwie qUM sMqw kw sMq qyry ]

maerae raam raae thoo(n) sa(n)thaa kaa sa(n)th thaerae ||

O my Sovereign Lord, You belong to the Saints, and the Saints belong to You.

qyry syvk kau Bau ikCu nwhI jmu nhI AwvY nyry ]1] rhwau ]

thaerae saevak ko bho kishh naahee jam nehee aavai naerae ||1|| rehaao ||

Your servant is not afraid of anything; the Messenger of Death cannot even approach him. ||1||Pause||

jo qyrY rMig rwqy suAwmI iqn@ kw jnm mrx duKu nwsw ]

jo thaerai ra(n)g raathae suaamee thinh kaa janam maran dhukh naasaa ||

Those who are attuned to Your Love, O my Lord and Master, are released from the pains of birth and death.

qyrI bKs n mytY koeI siqgur kw idlwsw ]2]

thaeree bakhas n maettai koee sathigur kaa dhilaasaa ||2||

No one can erase Your Blessings; the True Guru has given me this assurance. ||2||

nwmu iDAwiein suK Pl pwiein AwT phr AwrwDih ]

naam dhhiaaein sukh fal paaein aat(h) pehar aaraadhhehi ||

Those who meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, obtain the fruits of peace. Twenty-four hours a day, they worship and adore You.

qyrI srix qyrY BrvwsY pMc dust lY swDih ]3]

thaeree saran thaerai bharavaasai pa(n)ch dhusatt lai saadhhehi ||3||

In Your Sanctuary, with Your Support, they subdue the five villains. ||3||

igAwnu iDAwnu ikCu krmu n jwxw swr n jwxw qyrI ]

giaan dhhiaan kishh karam n jaanaa saar n jaanaa thaeree ||

I know nothing about wisdom, meditation and good deeds; I know nothing about Your excellence.

sB qy vfw siqguru nwnku ijin kl rwKI myrI ]4]10]57]

sabh thae vaddaa sathigur naanak jin kal raakhee maeree ||4||10||57||

Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||4||10||57||

If only you had followed Gurbani...

If only you had loved ONLY Gurujee...

If only you had seeked acceptance from Gurujee and not so-called Sikhs...

But alas...

Anyways...Gurujee bless you! Trust me veeray I got nothing personal against you as I don't even know you properly. The only similarity we both have is that neither you nor me were born into Sikh families. Thats about it. But I can't accept any small word for my Guru. Is that too much to ask for? You found spiritual delight in Shia Islam, great! But thats no reason to speak out against what you've always believed in before you changed tracks (or did you ever?).

Yes the Guru does speak against Idol worshipping, but it is the same Guru that says, Ram Ram Karta Subh Jug firay, Raam na Payia Jayay. How is this not speaking against the act of Jap. But obviously any Sikh with a good understanding can see exactly what is being rejected in those words and what isn't. The same applies to the refrences to Moorti Poojaks.

Lets look at the complete Shabad.

Guru Amar Daas Ji in Raag Bihaagraa on Ang 555

slok mÚ 3 ]

salok ma 3 ||

Salok, Third Mehla:

rwmu rwmu krqw sBu jgu iPrY rwmu n pwieAw jwie ]

raam raam karathaa sabh jag firai raam n paaeiaa jaae ||

The entire world roams around, chanting, ""Raam, Raam, Lord, Lord"", but the Lord cannot be obtained like this.

Agmu Agocru Aiq vfw Aqulu n quilAw jwie ]

agam agochar ath vaddaa athul n thuliaa jaae ||

He is inaccessible, unfathomable and so very great; He is unweighable, and cannot be weighed.

kImiq iknY n pweIAw ikqY n lieAw jwie ]

keemath kinai n paaeeaa kithai n laeiaa jaae ||

No one can evaluate Him; He cannot be purchased at any price.

gur kY sbid ByidAw ien ibiD visAw min Awie ]

gur kai sabadh bhaedhiaa ein bidhh vasiaa man aae ||

Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, His mystery is known; in this way, He comes to dwell in the mind.

nwnk Awip Amyau hY gur ikrpw qy rihAw smwie ]

naanak aap amaeo hai gur kirapaa thae rehiaa samaae ||

O Nanak, He Himself is infinite; by Guru's Grace, He is known to be permeating and pervading everywhere.

Awpy imilAw imil rihAw Awpy imilAw Awie ]1]

aapae miliaa mil rehiaa aapae miliaa aae ||1||

He Himself comes to blend, and having blended, remains blended. ||1||

The point Gurujee is making here is that Akaal Purakh is inaccessible, unfathomable, unweighable. Here Bani not saying anything against Naam japna. The people who chant the name of God without any understanding (the same old "tota rattan", parrot-repetition) are not the ones who get close to God. Naam Simran in its true sense is not tota rattan. In fact, here Gurujee is stressing on the agamm saroop of Parmaatma, that no mortal can realize Him using indriyaa (senses). Those who chant without understanding, and try to limit Him (this would include idol worshippers as well, right???) don't attain Him.

May Gurujee forgive any mistakes I may have made in interpretting this Shabad. Please correct me wherever you find me wrong.

Nowhere in Gurbani does Bhagat Dhanna ji say that he attained God through worshiping a stone.

Ang 487

Awsw bwxI Bgq DMny jI kI

aasaa baanee bhagath dhha(n)nae jee kee

Aasaa, The Word Of Devotee Dhanna Jee:

<> siqgur pRswid ]

ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

BRmq iPrq bhu jnm iblwny qnu mnu Dnu nhI DIry ]

bhramath firath bahu janam bilaanae than man dhhan nehee dhheerae ||

I wandered through countless incarnations, but mind, body and wealth never remain stable.

lwlc ibKu kwm lubD rwqw min ibsry pRB hIry ]1] rhwau ]

laalach bikh kaam lubadhh raathaa man bisarae prabh heerae ||1|| rehaao ||

Attached to, and stained by the poisons of sexual desire and greed, the mind has forgotten the jewel of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

ibKu Pl mIT lgy mn baury cwr ibcwr n jwinAw ]

bikh fal meet(h) lagae man bourae chaar bichaar n jaaniaa ||

The poisonous fruit seems sweet to the demented mind, which does not know the difference between good and evil.

gun qy pRIiq bFI An BWqI jnm mrn iPir qwinAw ]1]

gun thae preeth badtee an bhaa(n)thee janam maran fir thaaniaa ||1||

Turning away from virtue, his love for other things increases, and he weaves again the web of birth and death. ||1||

jugiq jwin nhI irdY invwsI jlq jwl jm PMD pry ]

jugath jaan nehee ridhai nivaasee jalath jaal jam fa(n)dhh parae ||

He does not know the way to the Lord, who dwells within his heart; burning in the trap, he is caught by the noose of death.

ibKu Pl sMic Bry mn AYsy prm purK pRB mn ibsry ]2]

bikh fal sa(n)ch bharae man aisae param purakh prabh man bisarae ||2||

Gathering the poisonous fruits, he fills his mind with them, and he forgets God, the Supreme Being, from his mind. ||2||

igAwn pRvysu gurih Dnu dIAw iDAwnu mwnu mn eyk mey ]

giaan pravaes gurehi dhhan dheeaa dhhiaan maan man eaek meae ||

The Guru has given the wealth of spiritual wisdom; practicing meditation, the mind becomes one with Him.

pRym Bgiq mwnI suKu jwinAw iqRpiq AGwny mukiq Bey ]3]

praem bhagath maanee sukh jaaniaa thripath aghaanae mukath bheae ||3||

Embracing loving devotional worship for the Lord, I have come to know peace; satisfied and satiated, I have been liberated. ||3||

joiq smwie smwnI jw kY AClI pRBu pihcwinAw ]

joth samaae samaanee jaa kai ashhalee prabh pehichaaniaa ||

One who is filled with the Divine Light, recognizes the undeceivable Lord God.

DMnY Dnu pwieAw DrxIDru imil jn sMq smwinAw ]4]1]

dhha(n)nai dhhan paaeiaa dhharaneedhhar mil jan sa(n)th samaaniaa ||4||1||

Dhanna has obtained the Lord, the Sustainer of the World, as his wealth; meeting the humble Saints, he merges in the Lord. ||4||1||

Correct me if I am wrong, but Gyani Pinderpal Singh ji also says that these sakhis about God appearing out of a stone are misinterpreted by readers. I am only trying to understand thrhough Gurbani, and Gurbani condemns idol worship (eg. Bhagat Kabir jee). How could Gurbani contradict itself? Is it possible that at one place idol worship is condemned, and advocates it another place? I don't think so

Thats fair enough. Good job by admins/mods.

All the best Javanmard, I hope you find the acceptance and understanding in your new community.

Just remember, when unravelling their history you will there too find different versions of events, history is simply a biased record on the large part, so do bear that in mind this time and be diplomatic in communicating your "opinions" and "theories".

Re having visions, I believe that all people have visions of those that play the largest part in their life (who they read about, have respect for, idolise etc) and that your heart was always Shia/Imam Ali orientated, hence it makes no difference what you meditated on.

God appears to us in whichever form we choose (be it sub-consciously).

Sorry I missed reading that excellant post

lol...ok...thanks