Mehtab Singh

Please explain (if you care to...) what you mean by "will continue the keep the appearance", and whats "3 mudre", coz it seems familiar although I may have forgotten what it is. Are you going to be a Shia with a Sikh appearance?

In earlier posts he has said Gurujee was not comparable to the Prophet or the Imam, and infact called Gurujee as some other "degree" of saint...I don't recall what exactly. Calling Gurujee a Shia Muslim automatically implies that Gurujee followed Hazrat Muhammad Sahib and Imam Ali, while Gurbani says "Sab te vadda SatGur Nanak". I'd consider it nindya to degrade Gurujee this way. Am I wrong?

Gurujee didn't go to Mecca because it wasn't safe? Gurujee couldn't turn around the Kaaba? "SatGur mera vadd samratha"! He can do anything. Am I wrong here a well?

Please do correct me wherever I am wrong. I am not out to offend anyone. I'll be last person to point fingers at anyone who converts because I myself wasn't born into a Sikh family. But I am not comparing myself to anyone here. I am glad as the lowest of the low. Just know that it is not proper to start speaking against the faith and people you've been with for a long time once you change tracks.

And yeah, good luck . I am glad you did it for spiritual quest and not for a person of the opposite gender. I just can't stand someone degrading my Guru and saying stuff totally contrary to Gurbani, that too by calling himself a Sikh. The circumcision statement was a question and not poking fun. So chill.

If speaking against degrading the status of Gurujee is childish, stooping low, may I be the lowest of the low, may I be the most childish of all...even if I have to be an embryo...

If someone asks you "Have you seen God?", say to him/her with a smile while looking straight at their face "I am seeing God right now".

Portion from today's Hukamnama...

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...&PageNo=855

koeI inMdku hovY siqgurU kw iPir srix gur AwvY ][/font:f0da205e4d]

koee ni(n)dhak hovai sathiguroo kaa fir saran gur aavai ||

If someone slanders the True Guru, and then comes seeking the Guru's Protection,

ipCly gunh siqguru bKis ley sqsMgiq nwil rlwvY ][/font:f0da205e4d]

pishhalae guneh sathigur bakhas leae sathasa(n)gath naal ralaavai ||

the True Guru forgives him for his past sins, and unites him with the Saints' Congregation.

AND

eyh vifAweI siqgur inrvYr ivic ijqu imilAY iqsnw BuK auqrY hir sWiq qV AwvY ][/font:f0da205e4d]

eaeh vaddiaaee sathigur niravair vich jith miliai thisanaa bhukh outharai har saa(n)th tharr aavai ||

Such is the glorious greatness of the True Guru, who has no vengeance; meeting with Him, thirst and hunger are quenched, and instantly, one attains celestial peace.

kinda throws whole theory of bahudar ali's beleif imam ali [who is also consider same as prophet mohammad of islam] being full with divine and sri guru nanak came from imam ali.

Veerji I don't think Hazrat Muhammad Sahib and Imam Ali are one person. And lets remember what Gurbani says: "Sab te vadda SatGur Nanak jin kal raakhi meri". No one is above Satguru Jee.

And I fully agree with tonyhp32 veerji.

This was bound to happen. Anyways, all the best veeray

No hard feelings, and God bless you.

This book was banned by the Indian government in early 1998 ( http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/i...2/08150344.html ) as it details about the ghallughara of 1984.

http://members.tripod.com/~ssosan/carn/carnage-1.htm : the beginning.

http://members.tripod.com/~ssosan/carn/carnage-2.htm : some really painful and horrifying eye-witness accounts by survivors. Read only if you can handle it

http://members.tripod.com/~ssosan/carn/carnage-3.htm : continuation.

http://members.tripod.com/~ssosan/carn/carnage-4.htm : the planning for the killings.

http://members.tripod.com/~ssosan/carn/carnage-5.htm : key role players

http://members.tripod.com/~ssosan/carn/carnage-6.htm : chronological events

http://members.tripod.com/~ssosan/carn/carnage-7.htm : continuation

http://members.tripod.com/~ssosan/carn/carnage-8.htm : names of people involved. Check this out and be surprised at the long list of names and their exact location.

http://members.tripod.com/~ssosan/carn/carnage-9.htm : conclusion

I read this book 9 years ago. I try not to read it again. But if at some point I do, I can't read it for long. Once was good enough to shatter me.

Man what are you saying?? His one eye was supposed to be gouged as per saudi law, but the reason they didnt gouge out was because of the intervention of the Indian Government.

Whatever it is, the end result is that he was not tortured and didn't lose his eye.

As for the Jail environment, he had a good time in the jail, i am sure he woul dhave had a better time in a US jail, it all depends on country to country so it has nothing to do with the topic.

Jail is jail, USA or Saudi Arabia. What is your point behind comparing the 2?

JavanMard and Singho are BOTH pakistanis from England !

And you are?

Now you read my updated news piece in the other thread . Please use latest and not older news articles next time.

Saudi Arabia: Court Orders Eye to Be Gouged Out

Torture Sentence for Indian Migrant Worker Follows Clash With Saudi Citizen

(New York, December 9, 2005) –

SOURCE :- http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/09/saudia12199.htm

Now check this out my friend...

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle...nent_may270.xml

I had no problems in Saudi jail, says released Indian

(IANS)

8 May 2006

KOLLAM (Kerala) — Naushad, the Indian national who was released after a three-year-long imprisonment in Saudi Arabia for assaulting and damaging the eyes of a Saudi national, has only good words for his jailors there.

"Contrary to the stories I have heard from those who spend time in jails in India and other countries, my three years in the Dammam jail was one I would remember for the rest of my life," Naushad said.

Naushad had in April 2004 bruised the eye of a Saudi national in a scuffle after a verbal duel. Subsequently, as the Saudi lost his eyesight, Naushad was arrested and sent to jail on April 24, 2003. According to Saudi Arabian law, one of Naushad's eyes could be gouged out for 'justice'. But he was pardoned and released on April 4, 2006. Naushad recalled that his stay in jail was fine and he had no problems there at all.

"The jail compound was a huge area and had all the facilities. In one cell there are 12 rooms and in one room there are 12 prisoners, all were given a bed. ...in every room there are two air conditioners. And in every cell there is one television and we could watch all the programmes," Naushad said. He said most of the time he spent reading the Holy Quran and, unlike other jails, no work is assigned to the prisoners at all. "The prisoners either play chess, cards without any stakes or watch TV and also sit and chat. We were given good food and we could play outdoor games," he said.

"Every month every prisoner is given 50 Saudi riyals and with that we used to go to the supermarket inside the jail and buy things. We were also given a heater and were allowed to cook".

Regarding the behaviour of jail authorities, he said all of them are Saudi nationals and they treat each prisoner with dignity and respect. "The day previous to my release they gave me a send-off where a small party was held to celebrate my release," he said.

Guess what, he said these things after he reached India, where he was under no apparent pressure to praise the Saudis. Please stop your hate campaign against the Middle East/Arabs/Islam. I grew up there 18 years of my life and have lived a total of close to 21 years. Yes a lot of bs happens but it is NOT so extreme as you are trying in vain to portray.

As for me, I believe the arab world is still living in the dark ages of the europe, where they believed the earth was flat and if anyone contradicted was burnt alive.

some of the same things we see happning in the arab world. such as

u got sex outside marriage---hang them

u got no veil on you ---- shoot them

recently there was a case in which an indian muslim accidental hurt a saudi man in the eye, the indian guy got arrested and probably will be blinded in one eye... as per the sharia law.

and if you convert outside islam.. ur punishable by death !

Most countries don't even follow that anymore. And about the Indian, I may be wrong but as far as I can remember he was acquitted and sent back to India.

Gyani Sant Singh Jee Maskeen has said several good things about how enlightened Hazrat Muhammad Sahib was. I am sure Gyani Jee knew a lot more than any of us on this forum.

My imaginary response to an imaginary racist gora: At least I know where to go back to, do you?

But the term "hug" in the desi sense is always free. It has a nasty interpretation though.

Dear MEHTAB SINGH JI,

I agree with you , no one can understand the avastha of Gursikhs like Baba Deep Singh Ji. But I am wondering that if he sat and recited like a normal person would do.. He propbably wouldnt get more than a 50 Jap Ji paaths in a day, So I definetly think that he didnt recite the Jap Ji the way we do. I have heard of some Gursikhs that at higher stage one can hear the vibraion of naam "waheguru" inside their bodies and it goes soooo fast.. that probably millions and million times in a fewsecond.

Enlightend us more on this subject.

Veerjee who am I to enlighten anyone. I am only stating what I have heard. Some also say that high avastha Gurmukhs have a really fast speed of reciting Bani without any mistake. So I am guessing that Baba Deep Singh Jee had such a speed as well. 50 Japji Sahibs in a day is a pretty slow speed for high avastha Gurmukhs, whereas if a manmukh like me did just 11, he would hold his head and say "ENOUGH"...lol.

I'm not trying to discredit Sikhi, since i'm a Sikh myself. I'm just trying to understand Charan di pahul, i'm sick of Black and White Sikhi. Modern Sikhi ideas are to not to speak of it and don't question it and follow blindly what your teacher says without understanding it. You wont find truth without understanding first, then you can fully understand the true meaning.

How many of you passed your exams without asking questions?

None of what I said was directed to you or anyone in particular. It was directed towards a particular mindset of people who are out to do what I have highlighted. As far as questioning is concerned, here is how I feel. Swami Vivekanand was asked "Is it ok to have blind faith?" He responded "Yes, provided the one you have faith in isn't blind". Now since Gurujee is the one who blesses us with divine vision, obviously He isn't blind. So why question His hukam? Who would have a problem following such a Guru blindly! Blinded by His love!

wahegurubol, like I said, ordinary people like us cannot understand the avastha of Gurmukhs like Baba Deep Singh Ji. Maybe he sat down and recited, maybe otherwise, who knows!

Whenever someone of another faith lays claim to Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee, it makes me mad, makes me laugh, and also makes me proud of my Guru. People work so hard running after atomic sized misleading evidences just to discredit Sikhi. Some compare the Khanda to an Islamic symbol that shows on the flag of Iran, some compare Amrit Sanchaar to an ancient Shia chivalry order's initiation, some say Gurujee used the sword of Ali at the first Sanchaar, etc. etc.the list goes on.

With due sympathy with all these who have lost the plot, lets look at it in the light of Gurbani/Gurmat. Anyone who believes that there was no one ever like Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj before Him, believes that there is no one like Him, and there will be no one ever in future like Him won't take long to figure out that the Khalsa, and therefore the Amrit Sanchaar were totally new concepts started by Dasmesh Pitaji. Anyone who thinks these were "taken", "borrowed" or "copied" from pre-existing foreign "systems" is directly implying that Gurujee was not perfect and independent in thinking. We can't debate or discuss much with such a person now, can we?

Bhai Gurdas Ji said "Nanak nirmal panth chalaya". Those who say Sikhi is an offshoot of Hinduism, a sect of Islam (Shia Islam to be specific), a continuation of Christianity have been blind to this pankti. "Chalaya" here means Gurujee started it. It was NOT a continuation or sect or branch of a pre-existing religion. "Nirmal" means without filth. Thus Sikhi is NOT a mixture of more than one religions as some people like to claim it as a mix of Hinduism (Bhagti movement) and Islam (Sufi movement). Anyone who makes such claims is totally unaware of this pankti.

As for Bhai Taru Singh ji, if we read his sakhi, we find that Bhai Taru Singh ji was arrested because he did langar sewa of the Singhs who were fighting the oppressive Mughals. Does that not make him part of the Khalsa army? I am sure we have heard of certain officers serving in the army who probably never see/face combat, yet they provide some sort of assistance and support. If they were not part of the Khalsa army, why were they martyred? What martial did Bhai Mani Singh ji do? Yet he was martyred. So were loads of Sikhs, including Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Dyala ji who never even picked up the sword, yet they were martyred. The concept of shaheedi is huge. Some sants attain it, some sipahis attain it, and some sant-sipahis attain it as well.

There is always that question about Baba Deep Singh jee. Lets remember a pankti from Sukhmani Sahib "prabh bhaawe bin saas te raakhey", which means that God can sustain life even without breath. Remember breath is the least possible requirement to be alive. If Akal Purkh can sustain life without breath, then why not without the head? Baba Deep Singh jee recited 110 Jaap Sahibs and 108 Japji Sahibs a day. Honestly, tell me if one would remain a normal human being after doing that much paath? Babaji was not an ordinary human being. It shouldn't be a surprise that he fought without his head. Those who question it need to understand that Sikhs of that avastha cannot be compared to mere mortals.

May Gurujee forgive my mistakes. I am still learning. Please correct me wherever I have made a mistake.

Guru Nanak never use to sleep, never use to eat.

Vaaheguroo! Dhann Guru Nanak! Veerjee where you read that?

As per bhai Gurdas ji, Nanak nirmal panth chalaya

Therefore I don't know how can Sikhi be an extension of Shia Islam or Sufism.

Also, calling SatGuru Jee a Sufi or Shia Muslim means He is being placed lower than Hazrat Muhammad Sahib and Imam Ali. But Gurbani says Sab Te Vadda SatGur Nanak Jin Kal Raakhi Meri.

I don't have any knowledge, just trying to respond in the light of Gurbani. Please do not try to propagate the view that SatGuru Jee was a Muslim based on certain facts that view SatGuru Jee as a mere mortal rather than a divine illumination who came to remove spiritual darkness of ignorance. We can have a million questions "How can this happen", "How can this be", because we are mere humans. Gurujee was jaagdi jot. Trying to make judgments by classifying Him as a mere human being is the first and biggest error one can do while discussing.

bhul chuk maaf

I wrote this some 2 years ago. The only addition I've made is the second last paragraph about Captain Amrinder Singh as that happened later.

What I am going to write is based on what I have heard and read from other fellow Sikhs. Since Sikhs in the Middle East have no media of their own, I have to rely on this information as the final word and don’t have any solid back up as evidence. Also, most of this is my own personal experience living as a Sikh in the Middle East. The country I am going to focus primarily on is the United Arab Emirates, which is where I am currently residing.

Sikhs have been here even before this country became a federation, which was in December 1971. Not just Sikhs, but basically Indians from different parts of India are known to have come and settled here as early as the 1940s. There are a number of Gurdwaras here, some of them are authorized and legal, while the others are not. In my initial 18 years of stay here before I left for the US in 1998, I came across 3 Gurdwaras getting closed down. I must point out that the Muslims or Arabs are not solely responsible for the Gurdwaras being closed down. As sad as it is to say this, rather than the Muslims it was few of our own power hungry fellow Sikhs who caused this to happen. Even false complaints were made to the concerned authorities by such so-called Sikhs who got the Gurdwaras closed down only because they were unable to gain power by other means.

What impresses me, however, is that a good number of Sikh families have very well enshrined basic Sikh values in their kids. Most of the Sikh girls in my college always dress up in the traditional salwar-kameez. As for the guys, they gel and tie their beards rather than trimming them. I have come across only one Sikh in my college who trims his beard, and even smokes, and another who is haircut and clean shaven.

A good number of Singhs here are construction laborers and truck drivers. They are the ones you will usually see with open beards and orange turbans, with Khandas on their trucks, making your day early in the morning when you get going to your daily destination. The Singhs do loads of sewa in the Gurdwaras. A good number of jathas also visit this country. Keertan, kathas and even Amrit Sanchaars take place I heard. The Prakash Utsav of Guru Nanak Dev Jee as well as Vasakhi are celebrated with great zeal, although we don’t have the freedom to have a Nagar Keertan.

One of my Sikh friend’s father is a professor in a university in Oman, another country in the Middle East. I met him twice when I was in the US. He told me that Oman is by far the most liberal country in terms of religious freedom, the other I guess is Bahrain. In Oman, Hindus and Sikhs have their places of worship without any kind of legal obstructions. I myself saw on TV several years ago the king of Bahrain gifting a golden pot lined with pearls to Swami Narayan, a prominent Hindu saint hailing from the western Indian state of Gujarat when he visited Bahrain. Another story I came across from this gentleman is about how the Sikhs saved the life of one of the kings of Oman when he had a tussle for the throne with his own brother. After he came to power, he offered the Sikhs citizenship of Oman, something totally unheard of in other Arab countries as non-Muslims cannot be citizens. But the Sikhs politely refused the offer. This further makes it clear as to how much the Sikhs are respected over here.

Even in the UAE, Sikhs are respected as hard working, honest and peaceful people. There are wealthy Sikh businessmen as well as construction workers and truck drivers. One thing pretty interesting is that there isn’t a single Sikh cab driver in this part of the world. The reason remains unknown to me. Another thing I heard is that Sikhs are not allowed in Saudi Arabia, and even if they are, it is only in limited and controlled numbers. No non-Muslim is allowed within a radius of some specified kilometers around the holy Kaabaa in Mecca. There are close to 500 Sikh families in Iran and there also they enjoy the respect of the local population.

Punjab’s former chief minister Capt. Amrinder Singh had a tie-up with one of UAE’s leading property builders who were to construct complexes in Chandigarh, but the Singhs in Dubai told him that the government doesn’t allow constructing Gurdwaras, so how could he being a Sikh have them make money from Punjab? Captain took the matter with the Dubai authorities, and Sikhs were allowed a Gurdwara. I have visited this place myself in November 2006 on the occasion of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee’s parkash utsav. This is going to be the UAE’s very first licensed as well as registered Gurdwara. There are other licensed ones but this is the very first one that is registered. It will have ground floor for parking, 1st floor for langar hall, and second floor will be Gurdwara. They plan on making it based on the design of the new Gurdwara in Southall, UK. What delighted me the most was the sign boards on the roads, having a Khanda sign with Gurdwara written under it, and an arrow pointing to the direction. I asked myself “Is this real the Middle East?â€

In the end, I would like to conclude by saying that Sikhs are a very respected lot over here. Those who disagree will only have to come here and see as well as experience for themselves. I myself have personally come across a number of Arabs and Pakistanis who were total strangers to me, yet who showered me with respect and affection only because I am a Sikh.

My very good friend, a Singh in full Sikhi saroop just returned from a business trip to Iran. Iran has one thing that no other Muslim country (even UAE) doesn't allow. They allow hoisting the Kesri Nishan Sahib outside the Gurdwara. Other things I've come across years ago is that they address Singhs as "Sardar XYZ Singh" rather than "Mr XYZ Singh". But then again there are some flaws my friend felt, like people laugh at Sikhs and pass comments, which happens a lot in our "beloved" western countries as well.