Malwe Da Sher

budha dal amrit sanchars at jorh mele and every sangrand - so atleast one every month, usually a couple.

cheers for that Singh

Can those who have read the Bhagvat Geeta please tell us which they think the best translation is?

You were asked to give a reference and you have failed miserably. I am surprised that MDS and Shaheediyan haven't been able to pull out any references. So it looks like Sahib Singh and his Nihangs attempted to seize the Akal Takht from the Akalis who had only a few days before taken it over from the Pujabris who were under the control of the Sarbrah. The Nihangs came from Burj Akali Phoola Singh which is over a mile away from Akal Takht. Under the Sarbrah the Nihangs like other Sikhs could visit Akal Takht but they had no special status or custodianship over it. This is history.

I would expect Neo to apologise for speading the bukwas story told to him by a Nihang that the Akali removed Sahib Singh from Akal takht of which he was the Jathedar and used women to beat him as they knew that he would not fight back against the women. That story has been shown here to be false. Over to you Neo.

LOL calm down dear you have been given a reference to an account of a Bibi beating up baba Sahib Singh and I refernced Giani Kirpal Singh, ex Jathedar of Akal Takht who writes that the Nihang Singhs were custodians of Akal Takht up until 1920.

Tony writes; Your quote as usual proves nothing.

In an earlier post you wrote: I am sure there were soormay enough within the Akali Jathas who could have taken care of the Budha Dal Jathedar without the need to have women do the job.

As i said the quote proves the use of women within the Singh Sabha Jatha. Yet you continue to call the story a Sanatan myth. What does sanatan myth mean? Sounds quite interesting. Accept that women were used against the Nihang Singhs as both Nihang accounts and Singh Sabha accounts confirm this, get out of your historical fairyland dear.

The Nihangs were at Akal Takht the Pujaris were at Harimandir Sahib. I have already given you evidence, which you asked Shaheediyan for earlier. The Pujaris were at Darbar Sahib the Nihangs were at Akal Takht. Accounts of European visitors from 1880-1920 confirm the presence of Nihang Singhs as caretakers of Akal Takht. They were based permanently at the Burj and performed the duties in Akal Takht while the Pujaris had control of Harimandir Sahib. Photographs from the 1900s also confirm the Nihang Singh presence at Akal Takht and their duties as perehdar around the complex. The Nihangs were not trying to take over Akal Takht from anyone as Akal Takht was already in their control.

I asked why Baba Sahib Singh Kaladhri would have to give a thumbprint on the supposed letter when by virtue of his Masters degree and his previous role of Tehsildar (where all you do is sign off documents) we can assume he was educated enough to be able to give a signature rather than thumbprint. Tony you replied;

'The apology of the Nihang jathedar was because they had as usual allowed themselves to be used by Anti-Panth forces against the Panth.'

Nice way to dodge the question and again make passing refernece to Baba SAnta Singh and 1984. However, I can confirm that I have recieved further information on this and have now learnt that the letter does exist, in the North Pole with Santa Clause in his right pocked as his left pocket contains a list of good and bad children, guess which of the two categories those who write books with lies come in? Oh dear looks like the 'Sanatanists' (again, whatever that means) are going to take all the Christmas presents this year as this circumstances sorrounding this event unfold.

Bottom line is Baba Sahib Singh Kaladhari is regarded as a Mahapursh by all those who know of him. He was highly educated and left a very senior post to devote himself to doing seva and parchar across Punjab. He was at the forefront of the refusal to accept the attempted implementation of Kirpan regulations by the British (what was Singha Sabha Stance on this?) He spent a lot of time in jail for his refusal to collaborate with the British and we have written accounts commenting on his refusal to accept various bribes the British offered him.

On the contrary the mischevious deeds of Bhasauria are well known. His blasphemous treatment of Sri Guru Gobind Singhs writings, his Jathas shortening of Rehras, changing of Gurbani, removal or Raagmala, removal of Bhagtan Bani, changing of Kakkar.. the damage he caused the Sikh Panth continues to damage us tremendously. Botttom line is Bhasauria inflicted more wounds on the Sikhs that any external enemy could ever have dreamt of.

Anyone with an objecvtive mind can easily discern which of the two, Jathedar Sahib Singh and Bhasauria better served the interest of those with ill intensions towards Sikhi.

Nothing remains to be said, each of your points has been proven wrong regarding; the Nihangs being in control of Akal Takht, the use of women to get them out, their supposed collaboration with British and certain lies by Singh Sabha authors are also clear. Good luck for your next point for finding another piece of wrong information from Nidar Singhs site to call a sanatan myth, present it alongside Baba Santa Singhs role in 1984 and somehow try and relate it to the topic in hand. You are getting too predictable dear and addressing your points is becoming easier but more tyring as the same points need to be made over and over again.

Arrivederci

Regarding the use of women to remove the Nihangs in 1920, Narain Singh MA in his book on Kartar Singh Jhabbar, promoting the deads of the Singh Sabhas and their jatha notes:

'Jathedar Jhabbar then stepped back and motioned towards his Jatha. At this, the Khalsa, like lions arrived at the Takht. They grabbed the Nihangs and threw them down. In the Malvai Jatha, there was an 18 year old daughter of a Subedar, Bibi Bhajan Kaur who was badly beating the Nihangs and was throwing them down. The Bibi grabbed one Nihang and was dragging him by the leg but Jathedar Jhabbar released him. The Bibi who had a staff in her hands, then went and struck at Jathdar Sahib Singh and attacked him. Finally, two Singhs had to hold this Bibi back and prevent her from attacking even more.'

Theres katha of Sant Kartar Singh Bhinderanwale and Giani Thakur Singh online where they mention the great avastha of Baba Sahib Singh Kaladhari. Its not surprising this story is hyped on AKJ websites who have it in for Sants. It must be very exciting and inspiring for some AKJs to read of a young girl beating up a Sant.

Pictures of Baba Sahib Singh Kaladhari show how heavily armed their Jatha was at the time. Anyone who believes the Singh Sabha event of this story about the Nihangs being overpowered by young women must live in a fairy land. Contemporaries of Baba Sahib Singh who were present on the day, including some who now are settled in the UK, confirm that the Nihang Singhs were ordered by Baba Sahib Singh Kaladhari not to use any violence due to the presence of Bibia in the Jatha. Those present say that as Baba Sahib Singh lay there having his leg broken by a women beating it with a staff he replied: " You are like my mother, is this the example you set your children?"

Take the story either way you wish - the use of women in the Jatha is confirmed by accounts from both sides.

Narain Singhs account also mentioned that Baba Sahib Singh Kaladhari stuck his thumbprint on a document stating that the Nihangs had made a mistake and sought forgiveness from the Panth. Perhaps someone could enlighten us as to where this document is. And more interestingly why Baba Sahib Singh, who possessed a Masters Degree and served is Teehsildar (registrar) of the State of Patiala had to give a thumb print, usually a sign of illiteracy.

Lies lies lies..... Oh dear Tony this Narian Singh sounds like a friend of yours who really does seem to have it in for Nihangs. Perhaps its not just the 'Sanatanists' who distort history.

Tony atleast check the basic sources involved in a subject matter - ex Jathedar of Akal Takht Giani Kirpal Singh book on the history of Akal Takht and its Jathedars writes that until 1920 the Budha Dal Jathedars were the Caretakers of the Akal Takht noting Baba Giana Singh and Baba Teja Singh who lead the Dal from the late 1800s through to the early 1900s.

I myself have not found any evidence for the apparent shoot on sight orders regarding Nihang Singhs, however the desire of the British to dislodge them of their authoritive position within the Sikh community is clear in contemporary literature. You have to step getting ahead of yourself and get it out of your head that not everyone gets their material from one website such as yourself who use the site to form a generalised understanding of "sanatanists say... insert anything you want here...."

AS everyone seems to be accusing each other of making up stories lets look at what the verifiable facts are here.

1. written accounts by British officials and travellers confirm the presence of around 500 Akalis (Nihangs) who served as guards (perehdars of Akal Takht) Travellers accounts also confirm the Nihang presence in Akal Takht whre they not Nihangs reading from their scriptures. Photographs also confirm that Nihangs were the perehdars at the Amritsar complex. Thus the authoritive presence of the Nihangs at Akal Takht is beyond any doubt.

2. As for the movement of Nihangs to Hazoor Sahib out of Punjab - this is verifiable by written accounts, oral accounts and standing monumnets such as Baba Prehlada Singhs shaheedi memorial.

3. As for the Akali LEhar consisting of great warriors etc etc, lets not forget a key leader who dominated the movement for years - a widely recognised ally of the British who caused great destruction within Sikh ideaology. Something you may wish to consider before making amole references to Sikh forces. Thus it would appear the leadership of the Singh Sabha was in the hand of the British, which is unfortunate as the movement largely consisting of good willing Sikhs.

4. Tony the so called contemporary account you have given varies significantly from another so called contemporary account widely propogated on AKJ websites about how their jatha 'kicked' the nihangs out of Akal Takht. They account, written by a member of the Jatha whose party attacked the Nihangs, suggests that It also clearly makes reference to women fighting at the front. Oh dear I think this means you will have to abandon the Singh Sabha consisted of warriors who would never let women fight for them. There were a lot of good Singhs in the Singh Sabha movement who gave a lot of Kurbani but as this highlights there was a more sinister element within also who themselves ackowledge

5. British accounts confirm their hatred for Nihangs and their desire to finish the Nihangs. A mention of the Nihangs features in most British military papers from Punjab -highlighting the scale of their resentment.

6. It is ridiculous to say Baba Sahib Singh Kaladhari was conspiring with anti Sikh British forces when he spent a long period of time in Nabha jail for his refusal to collaborate with the BRitish on any level. You can visit Nabha jail to verify this or speak to old members of Budha Dal or Bidhi Chand Dal whose family proudly served the Budha Dal while they were in jail. If you read the work of Giani Kirpal Singh he notes of various occasions when the British tried to bribe Baba Kaladhari to work in their favour - he reefused and went to jail. Bhasauria did all their dirty work and got made Jathedar of Akal Takht immediately after the Budha Dal was 'kicked out' of Akal Takht.

If people want to bring the Nihangs into a discussion they really should at least know the basics of their history. Regardless of the topic Tony like to state two things which he will retreat to when his views are challenged : 'Sanatanists' (whatever that means) make up stories and Baba Santa Singh sided with anti Sikh forces. Your begining to sound like a broken record. People should learn some facts related to the topic at hand before trying to tell others what did and didnt happen.

have you tried giving him a ring to see if he has any copies.

Jaswinder SIngh gave an open challenge that anyone who proves Dasam Granth to be the work of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji will get 1 crore rupees in victory. How come no one has accepted his challenge? What is the problem? Spokesman is always ready to put headlines related to dasam granth to get something done. Why don't you get your scholars and tell them to issue statement. There will be gentlemen ready to debate your hand picked dudes.

Do you live in some sort of fantasy world? The Nihang Singh Dals have given him various invitations. He was called to attend Akal Takht in June either 2006 or 2007. - you boys want proof - theres was thousands of Singhs there from all jathebandi so you can ring up Akaal Takht and ask. Baba Giana Singh, a 96 year old Nihang Singh student of Sant Gurbacchan Singh went to his house to speak to him, he locked his doors and ran into his house, and left Baba Ji standing outside for 6 hours before he left. I have personal knowledge of 3 invitations being issued to Jaswinder Singh to come to the Nihang Dals, including an open debate at Sabo Ki Talwandi, each time he has has been a no show. This the character of Guru Gobind Singhs nindaks.

Open letters have been written to Jaswinder Singh in Punjabi newspapers around the world, surprise surprise there has never a reply.

We dont want some random ppl turning up for a debate - give us your best, Afghana, Ghagha and try and pump some courage into your Jaswinder Singh if you can.

PS - Is it even a remote possibility that some of the compositions in Dasam Granth was by some of the court poets in Guru Gobind Singh's darbar?

The court poets of Guru Gobind Singh Ji praise Guru Gobind Singh Ji in their writings, for example in their mangalcharan and at the end of the saroop the praise Satguru Gobind Singh Ji - something which is not found in any of the banis of dasam or sarbloh.

"Anything outside Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which is clearly proven to be according to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we can keep it as literature but not as writings of Guru Ji. This should answer all your questions."

So we should accept Jaap Sahib but not as writings of Guru Ji, even though we all know it was written by Guru Ji?

How can I be in 10 threads at once and answer to people just doing copy paste from all over the internet?

You are the one spamming every thread on this forum with your naastic views.

I haven't even had time to sit with family over the past few days since I have been replying contantly.

Go and spend time with your family, no one wants you here - feelings which have been made very clear to you and your goon squad which has recently joined.

Like I said before, to eliminate this issue, live debate is the best. It won't as time consuming and no one can dodge questions.

The elite of sampradai scholars reside in India. Arrange for five or any number of your best scholars and I will arrange for 5 Gurmat gianis. Any topics can be discussed. Anywhere in Punjab you may select the location, I will personally take responsibility for this once you confirm a date and place. If you arent going to do this then stop hampering on about having a debate. Hasnt your group already been shown up several times in live debates?

Many of my questions haven't been answered either

You are not here to learn, and arent fooling anyone. You are trying to create doubts in the minds of others rather then clear your own. You have asked questions and references where answers can be found, you which you have been unwilling to check these references. You may be interested to know that knowledge exists outwith of Kala Afghana books.

Guys just keep posting quotes from GUru Granth Sahib Ji without understanding them.

Its pretty ignorant to suggest that anyone who understand Gurbani differently to you doesnt understand Gurbani. The same accusations can be made of you who uses random quotes from Gurbani and somehow try and relate them to kakkars - to which references can be found in both Dasam and Sarbloh Granth, as well as the rehatname and various other texts.

Gurbani takes days to translate.

Leave it to someone else, your clearly not up to the task sunshine. Wow so you guys do acknowledge that Gurbani does have antreev arths and that Prof Sahib Singhs work which relies primarily on viakaran is limited?

Don't expect me to given answers here.

Expect you to? On the contrary I beg maharaj you refrain from further polluting this forum with your

Especially when I have to reply to all sorts of posts. This is like a parade going on here. I answer 1 thread, there are 10 posts in another to answer.

Like i said, no one is asking you to post here.

My final post in this thread, bring proper live debate.

AGAIN, Like I said in India, you name the time and place and bring who you want. Neutral cameramen and the whole debate will go on the internet and tv channels etc.

Cant believe I wasted any more time on you.

Seems like a lot of vidhvans and sants are gracing canada with their presence, hope people are taking advantage and their divans are being recorded.

I must say guru da sikh and Khalsa Fauj makes some excelent points in how we should'n belive these degrading remarks about women could be penned by the Gurus....

Here are some other charitars and interesting quotes i found on how men should be aware of womens power:

I think the moral of the following charitar is that men should be aware of their wives, as they tend to turn them against their parents.

The enchantress wife with her charms made the husband dote on her.

He forgot the parents who had given him birth and had got him married.

Having made vows of offerings and considerd many good and bad omens and auspicious combinations, his marriage had been arranged by them.

Seeing at the meetings of the son and the daughter-in-law, the parents had felt over­joyed

The bride then started continuously advising the husband to desert his parents instigating that they had been tyrants.

Forgetting the benefactions of parents, the son alongwith his wife got separated from them

Now the way of the world has become grossly immoral.

the above "charitar" says women are to be blamed for the worlds immorality.

here is another interesting quote:

Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.

Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.

What kind of morals are these, condemning women?? we as sikhs should discard and reject such teachings from the Dasam Granth.. ooh wait.. its not from the Dasam Granth... its Bhai Gurdass vaar and Guru Granth Sahib

Vaar 37 Pauri 12 and Ang 304.

Do you also rejects these pauris and shabads because they dont fit in with your own views and thoughts??

That was genious, you had me going for a minute thinking you had gone over to the dark side. I didnt waste time like Kam reading the whole thing but that post was worth a read.

The Kirpan on the rope, doree vale kirpan, is kept as a kakkar. Over that in a gatra nihang singhs often keep other shastar such as pesh kabz or khanjar - these are poojnik jungee shastar but it is the kirpan which is the kakkar of an amritdhari singh. While sleeping, having ishnan etc Nihang Singhs in India never take their doree vali kirpan off.

nihangs tend to believe that since they have their little punjshastar (very small shastars, the size of ones nail) in their dumalla, they are 'ok' for not keeping a kirpan on them whilst ishnaan and sleeping etc

Dunno where you got that from but its far from correct. Whether rightly or wrongly some Nihang Singhs do pesh just for parting with their 3 foot tulwar for a small period of time, let alone their normal kirpan. Theres a grave danger of misrepresentation when we try to make sweeping generalisation or present a norm of beliefs amongst a particular order.

I like Khalsa Fudge, its about the best thing been posted on this forum in weeks. Poster of the week award goes to Shaheediayan.

LOL Fauj you got owned !

5 Singhs have agreed - Neo i think u should ban the Kala Afghanas.

Thats exactly it Kaljug, i would like to lern something rather than read posts by those who are just questioning every fundamental belief in Sikhi.

Is anyone else fed up will all the BS on the forum lately? It used to be nice signing in and see just a few posts which were often worth reading and very interesting. You could take out a little bit of time give everything a read and even reply where applicable. Now theres always loads of new posts and it seems like the same people are flooding this forum with Kala Afghana related BS - Same BS theory different thread. I understand the admins desire to maintain neutrality etc, but this forum is seriously losing its quality. sign in and see the same people have posed in every topic so dont even bother reading it. Ban those will kala afghana views and let this forum flourish withr sampradai and other spiritually enriching perspectives. Thats my humble opinion, whats everyone else saying?

This forum has always provided a niche environment for people of similar paths of inquiry to present and discuss a diverse range of issue offering insightful perspectives. Its getting really boring now.

yeh i remember that suraj parkash translation, first it was available to view freely, then u needed adminstrator permission to view it and havent seen it after that, anyone got any ideas?

Wariz Shah:

those street singers of india are amazing man

the original is better thats an edited version u posted:

Cheers Kam