Mystical

To even say he is formless is to say he has a form, a formless form.

Good documentry.

Cheers found it.

Is it possible to upload pictures in forum posts?

I heard once that praying towards a stone or direction was used as a focus point and isnt considered as Idol Worship?

A little side note, gurbani even says Ram and Allah are one and the same.

Show me Guru Granth Sahib Ji quote where Kaal or Mahakaal is used for God. What is your definition of functional names? Any names describing actions that occur? Kaal is death, mahakaal is an even worse death, spiritual death and Gurbani says to stay away from Mahakaal. Why would Guru Ji tell us to stay away from Mahakaal if it is God or an attribute of God?

Mahakal is another name of God and an attribute. Gurbani does say to keep away from Mahakal. An easier way of looking at it is, If you get on God's bad side e.g through sin, your going to experience his wrath a punishment for sins.

In a way Gods formless form is a form in itself. If you think about it, God is both nirgun sargun, one cannot exist without the other. The human mind can't understand God.

If you agree that Baba Fateh Singh had characteristics of Shiv, you are saying that Sahibzada Fateh Singh had anger mangement problems and would kill someone' son if he wasn't given food on time.

1. Was Baba Fateh Singh stuck in maaya and acted in ego like Shiv?

2. Was he stuck in duality like Shiv? Was he lost in three qualities of maaya?

3. Baba Fateh Singh had amplified ego like Shiv?

If the answer to above three questions is no, then Baba Fateh Singh Ji didn't have the characteristics of Shiv. It is utter disrespect of Baba Fateh Singh Ji to compare him to Shiv. This disrespect of shaheeds and pooran Gursikhs should never be acceptable.

When I was talking about characteristics of Shiv, I meant it in terms of Martial Traditions in India of the Shiv style of fighting. Of course Baba Fateh Singh Ji didnt have an anger problem.

1. No, otherwise he wouldnt have become Shaheed.

2. Because his own Guru was his father.

3. No

Someone already posted this video. It sad though this video. I think the building has taken to a literal term rather then the symbolism of 4 varnas coming to one place.

Gur Da Sikh:

I appreciate your committment to keep this truly an open forum. The sole purpose of my postings was not to create a division among Sikhs but to unite us all under One Panth & One Granth concept and create a constructive atmosphere to base our views on Gurbani and Gurbani alone

You say one Panth one Granth. Why cant you follow three Granths as one Guru, there of the same light. Its like saying all our 10 Human Gurus' are different and now useless because we have Guru Granth Sahib now? Try to open your mind. Ignore what some people may have you believe is true, because what they say may not be true also. The middle way is always the best way, you'll understand the world from all angles.

Great Stuff!

I think accepting pain and plesure also builds our character. We learn from our mistakes.

I know it isnt im just trying to relate to his question, "Jap JI shaib says we must follow the hukam."

Gurbani also says that having the fear of God is a gift.

Everyone is following is Hukam. Man who believes he is outside his Hukam should believe that he is in his Hukam. Its an understanding that we are below God.

Its sad watching this. I think main issue here is the EGO about the persons caste. A person who has too much pride in his caste and thinks they can treat the "lower caste" badly to feel more supreme is something I woulnt call dharam. Maybe its to do with insecurities within themselves too, "We got three TVs in our house, you only got two!". Where does is say to treat lower caste badly in Vedas and Shastras?

Pretty good hujj in the eye.

The way I throught of this Shiv Saroop was being fearless of death and destroying evil which is what Shiva does. Ive seen old pictures of Shiv Ji in which he has a beard.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/9613/shivabeardzz6.jpg

The clean faced image is the popular image.

The colour blue is meant to be the colour of the ocean. When your doing Shastar Vidiya the highest level of Vidiya is to be like water and merge with your opponent, where no force is used, your just water falling into gaps. Mahakal is also described as being a form which makes all shastars seem blunt.

I dont think Shiv Saroop is meant to be the physical form of Shiva but more on the charatictics of Shiva.

If you seen SV just imagine how Baba Fateh Singh Ji fort in battle. Ive even heard that Baba Fateh Singh was described as a crocodile emerging from the ocean.

For those are not familiar with the story of Baba Fateh Singh Ji dressing up in 'Mahakal' saroop, it was when he arrived in Guru Gobind Singh Jis Darbaar in the Mahakal saroop (form), by wearing blue bana, a tall dastaar, a farla, and decked with weapons.

Now, literally the word Mahakal means Greater than Death, but also refers to Shiv Ji. Mahakal is a ferocious form of Shiv Ji.

What got me thinking was when I read in Bijay Mukht Prakhash Granth*, Guru Gobind Singh Ji explains to the Sangat that Baba Fateh Singh Ji is the avatar of Shiv Ji (he also mentiosn how Baba Zoravar Singh Ji is the avatar of Indra).

So when Maharaj said to the Sangat that he will make a panth that will look like Baba Fateh Singh Ji, (i.e. Nihangs), are Nihangs then the form of Shiv Ji?

This goes back to the line in Sarbloh where it says...

ਧਰਮ ਪੰਥ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ-ਭਯੋ, ਸਤਿ ਸ਼ਿਵੰ ਪੁਨਯ ਰੂਪ ਜੲੇ ॥

One interpretation of this line is...

The sacred and pure Panth multiplied, having the true form of Parmeshar (Sat Shivan, here is translated as Parmeshar, which can be argued. Bhai Kahan Singh Ji in his mahan kosh does note that Shiv can also refer to Parmeshar. This is the appraoch that Jathedar Akali Baba Santha Singh Ji takes.

or it can be seen that Sat Shivan in the line means the true Shiv (roop/form)

Share your thoughts

*Bijay Mukht Granth is an old sau saukhi, that some claim to be the oldest and most authentic sau sakhi. It was written by an attendant of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and talks about the daily conversations Guru Sahib had with the Sangat, i.e. questions the Sangat asked, or if Maharaj gave them any hukams etc

Is this granth available in PDF format with English translations?

From what I have seen with my own eyes many years ago, was Gurdwarai (more than 1) Gyaanis turn away someone who needed help. They wouldn't even let the victim through the door - 1 - because they didn't how to deal with it and 2 - it would frighten the sangat.

This is the very sad reality - and the reason why so many DIY corrupted Babai are so successful all over the world - because Gurus Ghar has been forced to close its door on these unfortunate victims of circumstance....

This is why I advocate Dera Vadbhag Singh - because there is no commitment, no cost, nor an expectation to be a chela and fund a Babas love for 4x4s and property in Chandigarh.

If one is lucky enough to have sangat of a real Mahapurkh, then I would obviously recommend their help in the 1st instance.

Most Sikhs think Excorsism is anti-sikh theses days. They believe demonic spirits are fictitious. What the mainstream needs to understand that excorsism is normal and can help them and then that person whos possessed can get on with his life without being bothered by theses demonic spirits. I wish people knew about Baba Vadbhag Singh.

i think baba vadbhag singh dera in england was started by baba ajit singh who left their body few years ago.

http://www.babawadbhagsinghtrust.com/

Heres the website for the Gurdwara in UK which is being remade.

Chris Crudelli is showing how to use oppointent forse against them.

The audios been disabled from youtube?

You can even say freemasons changed our religion?

...Truth is out there.

wow thats a first