kdsingh80

You could see this coming a mile off.

Fact is we have 'turfed them off' Sikhism, whether people want to admit it or not.

Now the Sikh 'minority' is about to get smaller!

Surely we are one of the dumbest quoms about?

The discrimination lower caste faced in sikhism in nothing compared to sikhism still large number of lower caste are within the fold of Hinduism.The declaration of a new religion clearly shows that how much faith these Ravidasia's have in sikh Guru's .These days it is trend that leave sikhism and blame discrimination.

http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/22953/38/

Ravidass followers declare separate religion, released separate religious granth

Punjab Newsline Network

Sunday, 31 January 2010

JALANDHAR: Taking a leaf out of Sikh religion, the followers of Bhagat Ravidass have declared 'Ravidassia', a separate religion and affirmed Guru Ravidass their sole master. They have also released a separate religious granth 'Amrit Bani Guru Ravidass' which will replace Guru Granth Sahib in all Ravidass temples.

The Ravidass followers made this announcement in Ravidass temple in Kashi in Banaras district of Uttar Pardesh which would serve as highest temporal seat for the community. The community as sought recognition of Ravidassia's a sepearate community.

The new holy granth which contains the 'Bani' of only Bhagat Ravidass (included in Guru Granmth Sahib) was released by Sant Niranjan Dass head of dera Sach Khand Ballan in Jalandhar district. The Balla dera had came to lime light when last year few Sikh miscreants attacked on Ravidass temple in Viana in Austria and dera preacher Swami Rama Nand of Balla dera was killed. The Sikhs had objected that due respect was not given to Guru Grnath Sahib in the Ravidass temple.

Cerain sections of Ravidass community were opposing to domination of Sikhs over them and were trying to eastablish separate identity for their community. Recently, a famous Punjabi singer Miss Pooja had also released a song on these lines for setting up separate religion for Ravidassias.

The reports reaching here said that the community leaders at Kashi have also released the logo of community on which word 'Hari is written. The slogan to address Ravidassia will be 'Jai Gurudev'.

The declaration of separate religion by Ravidassia is bound to have its impact on Sikh politics particularly in context of Punjab. It is considered a majoir set back for the Shiromani Gurdawara parbahandak Committee (SGPC) supreme Sikh body which was trying to keep Ravidassia community in the Sikh fold. The critics of SGPC blamed it on SGPC for their failure to give due respect to Ravidassia community.

Meanwhile, Sandeep Singh national general secretary of youth wing of SAD (Panch Pardhani) on Sunday said that agents of Hindu forces in the Ravidass community have taken such decision to disintegrate followers of Guru Ravidass from Sikh religion. He said that there is no place for communalism and casteism in Sikh religion. He warned of consequences of such steps which would be harmful for the dalits. He hoped that the awakened dalits of Punjab would not fall prey to motives of people working against their interests.

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WHY the students from pakistan is not in the list?

WHY the students from pakistan is not in the list?

I'm reading Hindu scriptures because they contain high, noble and beautiful truths. Not because I think the average Hindu has any enlightenment and is not himself drowning in an ocean of suffering and delusion. I'm trying to discuss RELATIONSHIP between communities, not the 50 million differences, the miri piri, the Amritsar issue, the plumbing issue, the genocide issue, any of that.

I'm trying to discuss those age-old Truths which help mankind get out of the trap that just leads to more of the same.

Harjas kaur ji

If you read Hindu scriptures just because it contains beautiful truths then why try to convince sikhs that they are Hindu's? I too used to watch lot of mythological serials, My favourate monthly magazine childhood was hindi magazine that had lots of stories from hinduism.But I never try convince others that sikhs are hindu's neither I belive in that

I never said their were no differences or that Sikhs are not own Panth. I said Sikhs are Hindus (originally Hindustanis, from continent and sharing ethnic heritage and ancient wisdom philosophies) and part of Sanatana Dharma which is Indic religions based on Sruti.

It all depend how u interpret word Hindu .If you believe that people living in Hindustan are hindu then its ok but if you are pointing to Religion Hindu then sikhs are not part of it.

IN this context, as Jains, and Buddhists are also in this same category, and Sikhs are far closer to Hindu Mat than either of those,

Both Budhism and jainism are nearly extinct or got assimilated in Hinduism.Sikhs are afraid that they will meet the same fate.

Seriously have we gotten to the point of Singhs making videos that justify gunning down an unarmed old man over a tilak? this is craziness. Actually we are becoming equal to the worst by ostracizing and propagating only stereotypes and scapegoats. And this will only lead to violence.In what ways? Have Sikhs become so much more holy that world conscience is pricked by sight of swaggering punks wearing Bhindranwale t-shirts and calling every other as "bimbos," "pakhandis" and "rat worshippers?"

Every religion has its fare share of fanatic morons

Hindu's too have lot of them.Many justify attacks on churches,killing of christians and muslims.Also don't forget that many hindu's make fun of sikh appearance

crack 12 0 clock jokes what about them? so please don't give example of these type of people all religions have people who have hatred for other religion.

Even our DNA is 99% united with every other living being. But you won't even see relationship with Hindu.

I already said that sikhism has some spirtual relationship with Hinduism.but our diffrence with them is political.You very know that a religion has 2 elements miri(political) and(piri).Let me ask you a simple question Sikhs demanded a status of holy city for Amritsar but still it is not given.Do you think that this demand is not justified?

-- --------------------------------------------------

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-history-timeline/today-in-sikh-history-9th-december.html

979 The Dal Khalsa in its first annual conference at Gurdaspur passed a resolution demanding the declaring of Amritsar as a "Holy City." The Youth (Dal Khalsa and the Sikh Students Federation) had long since been demanding the declaration that Amritsar was a Holy City. The SGPC chief, G. S. Tohra,' had met the Indian Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi, on September 24, 1980, and had asked her to make a declaration to that effect. When more than six months had passed and there was no movement in that case, the Sikh Youth decided to organise a procession to press the Sikh demand. A joint meeting of the Dal Khalsa and the Sikh Students decided to take out such a procession on May 31, 1981.

The Hindus opposed the Sikh demand asking for the declaration of Amritsar as a "Holy City." Simply to oppose the Sikh demand, the Hindus took out a procession at Amritsar on May 29, 1981. Ten thousand armed unruly Hindus raised abusive slogans against the Sikhs and Sikh symbols. One of the Hindu slogans asked the Sikhs to "get out of India: as India belonged to the Hindus." Besides provoking, insulting and vulgar slogan raising, the Hindu processionists attacked some of the Sikh buildings and wounded a large number of Sikh passersby.

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-Ref. THE SIKHS' STRUGGLE FOR SOVEREIGNTY, An Historical Perspective By Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer and Dr. Awatar Singh Sekhon Edited By: A.T. Kerr Page 110-119

Now tell me if we are part of large Hindu society then why Hindu's opposed demand for holy city for Amritsar.

Hindu'a have already banned consumption,import,export of beef because it hurt their sentiment.but tobacco is sold and freely consumed .Is it not their duty to care about sentiments of sikhs?

I just want to conclude my post that you can construct 100s of theories showing similarities between hinduism and sikhism but what matter to a common people is what is happening in practical world.we Sikhs say that we are not Hindu's because we want to protect our own political identity.As long as this identity is presereved sikhism will stay alive O/W sikhism will meet the same fate that jainism and budhism met in India

http://www.sikhchic.com/history/sikhbritons_second_wealthiest_government_report

A few years ago, a study in the United States reported that Sikh-Americans were the highest earning (per capita) ethnic community in the country.

And now, in Great Britain -

A new report commissioned by the U.K. government and recently released, lists the wealthiest faith groups in Great Britain as follows: 1) Jews; 2) Sikhs; 3) Christians; 4) Hindus. Muslims follow behin

Everything in the above paragraph is talking about politics. What does it have to do with spiritual philosophy and kinship ties? Nothing.

You can hate your own cousin and murder him for stealing and being a hateful jerk. But it won't change the blood relation. He may have acted like a dog. But it doesn't make him no longer your cousin.

Even if Hindu society was absolutely the most despicable, reprehensible, and outrageously unjust...

it would not remove from fact that Sikh spiritual philosophy and social relations originated from Hindustan and Hindustani culture and Hindu religious philosophies.

1984, burned Gurdwaras, idiot (actual) pakudhi sants, Rajputs who kissed Mughal backsides for jagirs and sold own daughters and turned against Guru Gobind Singh NOTWITHSTANDING...

does not erase Hindu spiritual philosophy or interpretations from Sikh Mat.

I agree there are relations of sikh spirituality with Hindu's as they have many philosophies.but the conflict between Hindu's and sikhs are political and not spiritual.At the end of day a sikh support his/her cause and Hindu support his/her cause.so how are they same?Christian jews and islam share same philosophies but still they all are different

So the point is, Sikhs have always been accepted AS A PART OF Hindu society by Hindu's themselves.

Harjas kaur ji

If you want to live in your imaginery world then Its OK.What matter to people what happened and what is happening in real world.The victory of congress in 1984 after the massacre of sikhs clearly shows that sikhs are not considered part of Hindu society.HKL bhagat in 1984 won by over 5 lakh votes do you think that those votes were of muslims or christians?

Though in 1984 many Hindu's saved lives of sikhs .but on the other hand they did not shun congress party for

riots.the urban sikh community of Delhi did not participated in khalistan movement and they were very close to Hindu's.Many had similar thinking that they are part of larger Hindu society until blood thirsty mob reached their homes.

Mahatma Gandhi and Rajiv were also assasinated by Hindu's but not even a single mandir was burnt in retalition while in Delhi alone after the death of Indira 3/4 Gurdwara's were burnt.All the killer of sikhs got spectacular victories in the election of 1984

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Al-Qaeda-planning-to-dress-up-suicide-bombers-as-Sikhs/572043

Al Qaeda is planning to dress up suicide bombers as Sikhs and security chiefs fear that Muslim extremists may hide the explosives inside Sikh headgear. Al-Qaida is plotting to dress like Sikhs to exploit religious sensitivities about removing traditional clothing.

A security source said: “Dressing as a Sikh may give would-be suicide bombers the edge in getting past checkpoints. Security agents on the ground have been warned to be vigilant. Thorough body pat-downs are now regular practice, but the head area may be open to exploitation.”

“Ceramic weapons are also a concern, but we are working hard to deal with the threat,” the source said The new fears come after the UK terror alert status was raised last weekend from ‘substantial’ to ‘severe.’

Al-Qaeda thugs know Muslims may face extra scrutiny at security checkpoints so Osama bin Laden is even believed to have sent two beautiful women suicide bombers to target this week’s anti-terror summit in London. Last night Sikh groups acknowledged fanatics could use headgear worn by Sikh men with long hair in a bid to escape detection.

You missed the part in the article where he said no other prasadam anywhere contains onions and garlic, and that this was a new innovation even for Sikhs. So it isn't a question of silly comparisons of milk-free purely vegan diets, but what is traditional and what was original and what is now being modified out of ignorance politically to create more artificial separations from Hindus which did not formerly exist.

According to some sources Earlier langars were used to be non veg.Its quite strange that Bahadur singh who later fully embraced shia islam blamed sikhs for tempering langar and embracing vegetarian Langar because of pro Hindu mentality on this site.so who is right and who is wrong.Some blame sikhs for embracing pro hindu mentality while others blame them embracing anti hindu mentality.

Anyway there is nothing in Gurmat that ban garlic and onions.That person has no authority to say anything about Langar

And he is right, onions and garlic are traditionally considered both rajasic and tamasic foods and strict sadhus can't eat them. So any langar with them has sent clear message that Sadhus aren't welcome, and I think we all understand that point.

By this logic we should also ban use pure ghee milk and milk products in Langars as vegans Don't use any animal products.We should now also presume that vegans are not welcome in Langar?

I have been looking for proof for this claim but I can't find any. I found the following article in which Baldev Singh says that there is no evidence either for a British offer of an independent Sikh state or Jinnah offering an autonomous state within Pakistan. They both wanted Sikhs to join Pakistan.

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/052005/kapur_singh.htm

I agree with the above .The land at the time of partition was distribuited on the basis of majority.

and there was hardly any sikh majority districts in Punjab

There is not even a single proof from non sikh source where it is written that sikhs were offered a country

i think jatts in the pind are more turned off Sikhi by their lust for maya, by the society around them, and by hours and hours of watching tv and lazing about than any self righteousness.

I don't think situation is better among youths in urban India particularly big cities irrespective of Religion.Everywhere I see Youths just only want money,money.The image of Turbaned sikh is more of today a rich man rather than brave honest hard working person.

Plus, being frank here, historically I have no doubt that many Jatts joined Sikhism for reasons of faith but during the 1700s droves may have joined for more political and material considerations. Some may have seen Khalsa success as a clear opportunity to free their lands from Moghuls and joined in.

Sikhism spread very rapidly at time of maharaja Ranjit singh But the question is why? I don't think Mharaja Ranjit singh was giving any incentive to people to become sikhs.Infact He was quite a hindufied sikh.No doubt before Mharaja ranjit singh many joined just for political gain but at the time of Maharaja I think was the case of mass hysteria

As for the jatts in the pinds cutting their hair, do you think it has something to do with the hypocrisy of some keshdharis/amritdharis who use their physical appearance as a reason to be lofty above the moneh? Combine that arrogant attitude with the blind eye turned towards sexism and casteism by these 'holier-than-thou' types it's not hard to see why some of them are indifferent to looking like sikhs, or even think that there are more important things to overcome.

HSD

I don't think Hypocisy of Keshdhari or Amritdhari's is a big reason.We humans have sheep mentality and when mass hysteria of anything spread only a few one survive from it.The main factor I think is bollywood,Punjabi movies,Punjabi albums and as the mass hysteria spreaded in villages cutting hair became acceptable for them

Let me show you example .At the time of Maharaja

Ranjit singh the sikh population was believed to be 8-10 million but after the decline of Empire It declined dramatically

-- ----------------------------------------------------

http://www.advancedcentrepunjabi.org/eos/POPULATION.html

No census was taken during those days and no exact or near exact figures can be computed from any sources of information available today, but a general estimate has come down the generations that Sikh population in what then constituted Raṇjīt Siṅgh's Punjab was around ten million. But with the fall of the Sikh Kingdom in 1849, there set in a rapid decline in the numerical strengh of the community. As the Punjab Administration Report for the year 1851-52 issued by the British noted:

The Sikh faith and ecclesiastical polity is rapidly going where the Sikh political ascendancy has already gone. Of the two elements in the old Khalsa, namely, the followers of Nanuck, the first prophet, and the followers of Guru Govind Singh, the second great religious leader, the former will hold their ground, and the latter will lose it. The Sikhs of Nanuck, a comparatively small body of peaceful habits and old family, will perhaps cling to the faith of their fathers; but the Sikhs of Govind who are of more recent origin, who are more specially styled the Singhs or "lions", and who embraced the faith as being the religion of warfare and conquest, no longer regard the Khalsa now that the prestige has departed from it.

These men joined in thousands, and they now desert in equal numbers. They rejoin the ranks of Hinduism whence they originally came, and they bring up their children as Hindus....

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The question is why the Hindu's joined in thousands to become sikhs and why they left.I don't think Maharaja ranjit singh was forcing people to become sikhs.I think that was the case of mass Hysteria of Joining sikhism and then leaving after the fall of empire

KDs

There are some Hindus who 'like' Sikhs, because they refuse to accept Sikhs and Hindus follow distinct religions. One you air the view that the Sikh religion is independent of Hinduism, they start to get paranoid and hateful.

First of all sikhs themself need to look whether they are independent religion or not.Even on this forum there are sanatn sikhs which discussing and trying to prove their level best that sikhism is just a branch of hinduism.I am family of firm beleivers that sikhism is independent religion still there extended relatives of mine who believe that sikhism is branch of Hinduism.

some also hear Devi bhajans and visit vaishno Devi.In this type of situation How could we blame Hindu's For not accepting sikhism as separate religion when they see Turbaned sikhs visting mandirs worshipping devi devta's etc

Also It is not like that majority of Hindu's love or hate sikhs.At ground level vast majority of India mainly in East,west,south and central don't have any Idea who are sikhs what is their beleif? are they part of Hindu religion or not

Right said Hindus hate sikhs alot . Even today finding a house on rent is difficult in places like Delhi. I dont understand what these Hinduas want . Hatred for Sikhs and Muslims is in Hindu Blood . Check out the report from Indian Minority Commission which Show Muslims and Sikhs suffers most from Raceism in India. Down with Hindu Stan . China shold should takeover this country to teach Hindus a lesson.

Only a minority of Hindu's hate sikhs.Yes they do hate muslims but they don't put sikhs in the bracket of muslims.

Also are you joking about sikhs not getting rooms in Delhi.Of course some people do have reservation against sikhs but then some have against Bihari's and others so at last it depend on the landlord and in present environment sikhs hardly face discrimination in gEtting rooms

Gurmukho, please discuss. Would you change your convictions if you come across a miracle/experience or see a dream of devi/pir or whatever?

Isn't Gurmat bigger than miracles or some experiences?

Note:Some people do not believe in miracles or experiences, so they should stay away from this discussion.

People give a lot of weightage to their personal experiances so I think 90% of people which may encounter miracle expeiance with Hindu sant,muslim priest, Christian fathers or Dera baba's will change their beleif

Hmmm...what's with the discarding of kesh by the rural Jatt masses, especially when, as KDS mentions, other jaats don't seem to have this problem in a comparative way? Any ideas of the reasons?

PS - I know that Sikhs aren't supposed to be into this jaat paat nonense, before anyone says. I only wish the day comes when this actually becomes a truth.

To be honest Even I don't have answer what type of reason a Rural sikh could give for not keeping kesh or wearing turban.There are plenty of reason which an urban sikh or a sikh living outside India can give but for rural sikh hardly any or no reason

Rural people of India are known to have traditional and religious mentality than their urban counterparts

which are more westernised.

I know, I'm being naieve I guess. That being said, having people with the overt external Sikh identity who are indifferent to the faith can't be a good thing. I do find it strange myself although what you posted describes how it can easily happen.

I don't think I'll ever get over keshdhari athiests or Christians. It seems almost retarded to keep the external form when you are consciously following another path or no path. Seems pointless?

I know Its pointless but many times social pressure is one of the biggest factor for wearing Turban or keeping kesh.Don't you find it strange that a good percentage of sikhs that are living in Liberal environment of Delhi,Bombay keeps their hair or wear turban while the rural sikhs mainly jatt sikhs were the first one to discard kesh and turban.The reason is simple cutting hair became acceptable in jatt sikh community so majority chooses it to cut their hair on the other hand Sikhs in Delhi,bombay are of Khatri,Arora ,ramgaria caste where cutting hair is still very much not acceptable so large number cannot go against their families or don't want to go against their family.Sikhism is the only religion where this thing is opposite .Rural muslims may keep their beards but urban one hardly or never ,Many rural Hindu's still wear janeu ,keep their bodi but urban one very rare.keep it

I don't know, I think some of them (comrades) may have had their heart in the right place.

So are they keshdhari athiests or what? I've met a couple recently! Guys who wear paghs because of family pressure but don't have any faith, not even sure if God exists! wtf??

Dal singh ji

Why do you think that guys who have super faith in sikhi keeps their hair or wear pagh.My younger brother don't even know the names of 10 Guru's or First pauri of japji sahib.Still he wears a turban and don't even trims his beard.May be it is because he was raised in joint family where religious persons taught him that if you cut your hair then you don't remain a sikh.so reason of wearing a turban could be anything Family pressure,social factor ,or just because you are raised with this beleif and you don't have problem with it apart from having faith in sikhi