das

I found this article (http://bvml.org/SBRSM/SGaHG.html) , it's really very interesting but long; and I know there are some people on this forum you would like to read such stuff even if it's long. So, just sharing. This article has loads of information on Guru, Mantra, Students etc.

I really like this:

"God Consciousness vs. Society Consciousness:

Progress means elimination and new acceptance. So, when there is a clash between the relative and the absolute standpoint, the relative must be left aside, and the absolute accepted. The example is given of a socialist in a country of capitalists. When there is a clash, one will not express their creed for the sake of peace. But to maintain the purity of their faith for the socialists they will try to leave and join the socialists."

​www.digitaldrstone.org

​

Good pointer in your question: "How was my day ...."....... There are 8 prahars; each of 3 hours each. One day/night (24 hours/8 prahar) is equal to 1 Nakshatra which is equivalent to 12 (3*4) zodiac signs. It is basically the play of 5 elements (4 physical - Air, Fire, Water, Earth in the domain of 5th element Ether) and 3 Gunas. The following diagram gives a clue. The following images are from

When I said "Going with the morsel of food means that one is missing the 3rd exhalation phase......", I meant that if we think that 'Grass' is morsel of food, then it means that we're agreeing with 2 phases of breathing process (Inhale and Pause [during the swallow]) but missing the 3 process which is Exhale. But if one takes takes 'Grass' as Exhale, then we're taking all the 3 phases (Inhale - Saas, Grass - Exhale, and Pause/Source - which is always present).

Saas-Saas means by each FULL cycle of breath (which is collection of 3 - Inhale, Exhale, Pause);
Saas-Grass means Inhale-Exhale (and Pause indrectly as Source is always present)
Also even Saas and/or Grass could further be sub-divided into 3 and those three could further be subdivided into 3 and so on..... after-all, the Laws of Yin/Yang states that: Opposition, Inter-dependence, Mutual consumption and support, Inter-transformation, and Infinite sub-divisibility.

So, again, everything changes form: From one to another. What we call inhaling would eventually become exhaling or vice-versa. That's the play.

At last as I said in the last post and you've echoed the same thinking that there is no point of debating for nothing and ALL that matters is: do meditation Atthe Peher/ do meditation 24/7. If someone is understanding that during breathing and having food means 24*7, then it's fine as the person is getting the core message. On the other hand if someone's understanding is that Saas Grass is Inhale-Exhale, i.e remember HIM even after inhaling that HE is going to sustain us; then its fine too.

So, the bottom line is: Go with what you feel good about. I've just stated what I learnt from Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib wale and also what I felt personally after reading the works of Rudolf Steiner, Randolph Stone, Nikola Tesla and so on. There are numerous references about the three qualities/polarities/gunas in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:we're instructed to beyond the 3 qualities.

ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਈਅਹਿ ਆਸ ਅੰਦੇਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥

By actions committed under the influence of the three qualities, hope and anxiety are produced.

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ਕਿਉ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਛੁਟਸੀ ਸਹਜਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

Without the Guru, how can anyone be released from these three qualities? Through intuitive wisdom, we meet with Him and find peace.

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ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਬੰਧੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ ਜਗਿ ਸੋ ਖੇਲੁ ॥

The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.

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ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥

The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.

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ਸਾਖਾ ਤੀਨਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੀਆ ਏਕ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥

He cuts off the three branches of the three qualities, and embraces love for the One Word of the Shabad.

​I beg to differ and here is some explanation:

First of all, couple of things are important to keep in mind prior to discussion:

This whole world is just Parpanch i.e just the 5 things: Naam (Name), Roop (Form), Sat (Truth/God), Chit (Pure Consciouness), Anand (Supreme Bliss). Out of these, Naam and Roop are destructible and bound to go through transformations. Sat-Chitt-Anand is a sweetness, it neither dies nor transforms. This rass is called by names like Waheguru or Parmatma or Khuda or God. Sat-Chit-Ananda is not 3 different things. It is different dimensions of 1 thing. Immortal, eternal and unchanging.

So, now we're left with only 2 things: Name and Form. Both of these things are composed of five basic elements - Earth, Water, Fire, Air, and Space. Then there are 3 principles: Sato, Rajo and Tamo. Basically, these 3 principles interact with 5 elements for everything. On ALL the levels/layers/planes, it is the play of Sato, Rajo, and Tamo gunas. In other words, if you want to understand this whole Universe, think in the terms of 3 (Three). These 3 principles could also be presented as: Neutral/Creative, Positive/Protective, and Negative/Destructive. e.g even the biggest Scientists have tried to graps this 3 fold idea as: "If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe" - Nikola Tesla

Bottom line is: In order to understand the working of this universe/body (macro/micro) one needs to see the things as the set of three (Neutral, Positive, Negative). Positve is Expansive/Centrifugal phase of energy; Negative is Contractive/Centripetal phase of energy; Neutral is the Essence, Stillness, Neutral Ground. Some examples: Creation, Preservation, Destruction.

Breathing in this Context

Now, keeping the above points in mind; it would make sense to identify the breath as: Inhalation/Positive, Pause/Holding/Not-breathing/Neutral, and Exhalation/Negative. So, in breathing one could say that there are 2 parts: Inhalation, and Exhalation as Pause/Stillness is always there. I remember a Sakhi when Guru Nanak Dev Ji asked Bhai Bala and Mardana: "How much do you trust that you'll survive?"; to which Bhai Bala replied that "I don't know if I'll see the light of next day or not.". Guru Nanak Dev Ji said "That's a bold statement". Then Bhai Mardana was asked the same question and he replied that "I don't know if I'll breath the next breath". Guru Nanak Dev Ji again replied "That's also a bold statement". Then both Bhai Bala and Mardana asked Guru Nanak Dev Ji the same question to which Guru Ji replied that "I don't know if the breath that I've taken will come out or not.". From this Sakhi, it is also clear that breathing process has more than one phase which is independent as well as dependent on each other.

So, whenever we want to say 24x7 at more deeper level, then we got to mention the subphases of Breath: Inhalation, Exhalation, and Pause. Secondly, Pause is considered as the death; Mind cannot think (no thoughts) during the Pause phase as Mind and Prana are interdependent.

So, in this particular context, Saas Grass DOES mean: Inhalation and Exhalation and NOT Breath and Morsel of food. i.e One is remembering HIM during the inhalation and then preserving it naturally and then during Exhalation one again remembers HIM. Going with the morsel of food means that one is missing the 3rd exhalation phase. Pause/Stillness/Neutral is always present.

At last, there is no point in arguing if we (me included) just debate this vs that as it won't bring us any close to HIM but Practice will.

Here I'm not pin-pointing but I've heard many people referring Gras as swallowing food. Even almost all the online English translations have that mentioned in that way. But I've heard the following being the correct translation.

Swas is Inhale breath (incoming breath)
Gras is Exhale breath (outgoing breath)

​May I know the author who said that "Drinking Ice cold water is good for health"? I pity on that author.

Drinking Ice Cold water is extremely bad for health. You may want to consult any Authentic Ayurveda, Chinese, Unani, or any time tested system and you'll learn that everyone is suggesting to have slightly warm water for drinking and cold for bathing.

Best option is to do NOT take my word for it and test it yourself: Do the following experiment: Drink Ice Cold water with your meals for 3 months straight and see how it goes.

Also, for the sake of reference, I'm including the Tips for drinking water for health:

• Quantity: Drink 1/2 your body weight (in lbs) of water in ounces, daily.  e.g 180 lb = 90 oz. of water daily. Divide that into 8 or 10 oz. glasses and that's how many glasses you will need to drink daily.
• Temperature: Do not drink ice-cold water; always take water at room temperature.
• When:
  • NO water Before meals. Best is to avoid water for 1 hour before meals.
  • NO water After 15 minutes of meal.
  • Stomach full of water (1-2 glasses) After 2-3 hrs of meal. Nothing should be taken in between.

No, drinking Ice Cold water is bad for health. Ideally one should have slightly warm water, otherwise one can take water at room. As a matter of fact drinking cold water is injurious to one's health a.k.a digestion, metabolism.

For more information on Water (Bathing and Drinking) the following seems to be good idea: http://satgur.net/HealthTherapy/Detail/5

Thanks Amardeep for sharing!

But I could not read or download any of the Granths. Any idea regarding how to read or download?

It seems like from the above discussion that both the parties are NOT on the same page. Some of them have different understanding of powers and other have different point of view.

So, here is my take on this discussion:

1. Some just reject the idea of super-powers or ridhi-sidhis. They are wrong e.g If you stand on the road to the incoming traffic and close your eyes; it does NOT mean that no traffic is coming. Open your eyes.
2. Some say that they do understand these powers exist or but they are not interested and they blame other persons (who has these powers) that they are going in wrong direction or something. These people do NOT see the whole picture, they do NOT know how this Universe works. They have very limited view. e.g Medical science do NOT recognize the Mind powers in general but they do believe in Placebo effect. Isn't that funny.
3. Some understand the power of these ridhis-sidhis and spend their life on pursuit of it. The fail to understand that these powers are the indicators of some real Source and they just feel powerful with the shadow powers. These people are lost and in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there are various tuks warning us NOT to be in this group.
4. Yet some understand the whole picture that powers and their smaller siblings are just the natural stages of higher consciousness. It's just like wherever Sun goes, shadow follows. NOone can detach the Sun and Shadow. These people do try to remember that these powers could be used if necessary as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone's free-will. These people face the biggest issues because they are always torn between this vs that. This is a tendency which will lead them to either point number 3 or 5. Go for this.
5. At last, there are people who are under the guidance of some Master/Guru who has already broken 3rd eye level and beyond. Their Guru guides them continously when to use and not to use these powers. From the above mentioned, I personally feel that the persons defined in point 2 and 3 are most difficult to deal with as they are so rigid in their stands and they neither understand the whole picture nor they have the capacity (at that time) to understand it.

What is Power?
It is just a shadow of the real power/spiritual. Just like shadow is to Sun. When someone reaches any higher stage, they are offered some ridhis-sidhis which are always at their disposal. They can use it or not, it's up to their free-will. But some people just identify the smaller powers to ridhis-sidhis; this is NOT correct. Ridhis-Sidhis are very hard to get, only after Conquering their corresponding owner. It's just like I mentioned on the other thread where people identify the smaller experiences of Mind to Conquering the Mind. There are numerous smaller power which are somewhat easy (comparable to ridhis-sidhis) to get.

Do we ever use a smaller power or What Guru Granth Sahib is recommending?
BabaJi says "Rab da Bana Mitha Mano" and do NOT try to fight it. Doesn't that mean if you're getting fever, then accept it and do NOT take medicine? Doesn't that mean do NOT do meditation or prayer for the sake of getting rid of your problems? Here most people will find out more than one reason and/or tuks to support that they should take medicine for physical problems and should do meditation, path, prayer for physical/mental/social/environmental problems. Isn't this hypocrisy? On one hand you're saying do NOT use the smaller powers as it is against Gurmat while on the other hand you're saying that you can use medicines (physical, energy, and spiritual) for your personal issues? Think about it.

Example-1:
Almost everyone is using medicines (physical, energetic, spiritual techniques).
Firstly ALL the healing comes from the ruler of this Universe; who is NOT God. Secondly, whenever we use medicines for OUR issues/problems, then we're fighting against the results of our previous deeds/karams because the diseases are just the results of previous karma. Here are we accepting the Bhana?

Example-2:
Many people resort to Meditation, Path with proper techniques to get rid of their physical/mental/environmental issues.
Here again, we're trying to fight against the results of OUR previous deeds. It's does NOT matter if we're doing path or meditation, we still have NOT understood that the problems are the results of our deeds and therefore we should do the Bhana mitha man. Think about it.

Example-3:
This universe is just the play of Mind and Maya and it happens with Energy, Time, and Space. Even the way, we place our furniture does affect number of factors which could be potential issues or powers. In other words, many people in this world are unconsciously (or higher powers are making them to) using some spiritual techniques for their problems. e.g Placing a Khanda on the person's photo in order to protect that person from negative entities. or visiting a Spiritual place on a particular day without any intention etc.

The above examples are more than enough to show us OUR real face that we are hypocrites where on one hand we're opposing the persons having smaller powers whereas we're using the same more smaller powers in our daily life. In the above, I'm NOT suggesting that you don't take medicine or therapy for your problems. At the same time, I'm also NOT suggesting to pursue the ridhis-sidhis or other smaller powers. I'm just trying to present the whole picture. It's just that the medicines have become the norm and we forgot from where the healing comes from?

Now, when someone (who are little in number as compared to normal people) tries to use the smaller powers (like healing, transferring the effects of karma etc.) we tag them as manmukhs because these people are using ridhis-sidhis and then blame them that they are doing path or meditation for the sake of getting powers. No, the reality is that because of concentration, path, meditation; they have got these powers (remember wherever God goes, his powers accompany Him; e.g Sun vs Shadow), and its not the other way around. So, it is said that one needs Guru who can guide us at each and every step. Secondly, these smaller powers are NOT ridhis-sidhis, Ridhis-Sidhis are much more that. These days people just tag any smaller power (which they cannot understand with so-called Science) tag them as Ridhis-Sidhis which is wrong. Eventually, these smaller powers would lead to Ridhis-Sidhis but at this time these are just the powers of concentrated mind.

If one has learned some techniques and got some powers (smaller or even Ridhis-Sidhis) then there is NO harm in those AS LONG AS the person understands the whole picture and is within God's command and is looking beyond these powers. e.g There are many people who have numerous powers and they are benefiting the whole mankind, they are NOT using those powers as boost to their ego or personal benefit. For some people, these powers prove to be very good because they think that if these shadow powers can be so powerful, how much powerful will the Source be. So, they increase their meditation to look for the Source.

​Thanks for your inputs Lucky bhaji. It seems like either I failed to deliver my thinking on paper or you misunderstood me. Basically, whatever you mentioned in your last post, I agree with it 100%.

So, here is my final attempt (on this topic) in regards to Atma and Mind:

• Yes, Mind needs to be conquered before one finds the real ghar (which is beyond all the realms, even beyond the Shabad).
• Yes, we can distinguish the thoughts which are coming from Atma vs Mind. It's a skill that could be refined by more and more Simran and/or Kirpa.
• Yes, the sequential thoughts goes by the images from one to another. And if we're carefull enough, we can notice the source. Here the main concern is not to attach yourself to the process, just watch without being attached.

The thing where I don't agree with some people who claim that if they are hearing some sounds or getting some Real experiences or able to still their minds for some time or can see the past/present/future; or say they are hearing Anhad shabad; then they claim that they have conquered the mind (temporarily).

That's where I don't agree. They definitely have raised their consciousness to high level which in itself is achievement but they still have NOT conquered their mind. Controlling the mind for some time with the help of Simran/Kirpa is different from Conquering the mind. Basically, if you happen to have Guru then you know that you're in middle path which is still under the Control of Mind/Kaal but somehow the middle path is somewhat (not fully) shielded from the influences of Mind. Mind can still peek in but Guru helps. It is something like a person with one leg starts to walk using clutches and then claims that he/she has learnt to walk. No, it is the clutches that is helping him to walk i.e it is the Kirpa of Guru or say power of Naam Simran using which we're experiencing those things. So, a middle path can hold any number of physical beings, astral beings, causal beings. They work as a group by helping the lower in the middle path, but still operating under the world being owned by Mind.

e.g Let's say we built a container with vacuum inside and we start to feel that we're outside the domain/control of Mind. Then it is our limited sense, yes, we're able to build a container which in itself is big achievement but thinking that we conquered the air/mind is wrong. We still we're under the control of the owner (outside air/mind).

e.g Another example is: Mind and breath work side by side.  By stilling the breath, Mind could be made still and vice-versa. Again here we can either still the mind and/or breath but temporarily (may be couple of yugs) but still we are within the Control/Domain of Mind. Something like vacuum.

When I said "Survival is not possible without Mind."......I meant that this very current body is the consequence of Prarabdha karam (subset of Sanchita karma); Prarabdha is that portion of the past karma which is responsible for the present body. With Simran and Bhagti one can destroy all the previous total collection of Sanchit karma but Prarabdha is still there as the body is still present. As soon as Prarabdha karma ends, the physical body dies. And this karma thing belong to Laws as defined by Mind/Kaal. Even Avatars have to complete Prarabdha karma, till in body they get Videh mukt. They have really Conquered the Mind and they are really dictating the Mind; for them Mind cannot run faster than the Atma as Atma is everywhere.

These days, I've noticed that by reading the very hard earned experiences of Maha-purashs or Saints, we start doing hard work and then get experiences and then relate those lower level experiences with Brahmgyanis experiences. The combination of Mind and Maya is very hard to Conquer.

Again, the whole point of this post "Atma vs Mind" was to break the ego-feeling that if we've certain expereiences, sound etc., then our thinking is always correct. Yes, we might be on the certain level, but then Mind let us cling to that certain thought/movement and thus delaying the further progress. Mind has its own defence mechansims: If it can divert someone easily against their destination, then it will do it. But if the person is of somewhat higher level, then Mind uses more subtle defense like: it would force us to cling to certain idea (however good/spiritual that idea may be), or it will betray us thinking that we've learnt some technique to control the mind whereas the truth is that Mind has changed gears as per the person's individual Spiritual stage.

So, nothing more on this topic.

 ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥        
ਛਡਾਇ ਲੀਓ ਮਹਾ ਬਲੀ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੇ ਚਰਨ ਪਰਾਤਿ ॥        
ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਓ ਮਨ ਮੰਤਾ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਨ ਕਤਹੂ ਜਾਤਿ ॥੧॥        
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਕੀਨੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥        
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਓ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕਉ ਭਈ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਗਾਤਿ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥        
ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਓ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੀ ਰਾਖੀ ਪਾਤਿ ॥        
ਨਾਨਕ ਚਰਨ ਗਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਪਨੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੦॥੪੧॥     

How do we know if we're the Mind is running the show or Atma is running it? Mind is extremely subtle, without it, it is NOT possible to survive.

If one is trying to go towards Atma by doing Simran, then the positive forces or your Guru does help you to focus on Atma but still the owner is still the Mind. If you read the experiences of real Brahmgyani, then it would be clear that Mind does have the capability to mimic one's Guru. We might think that we are getting the instructions from our Guru or Atma but in reality it is still the illusion of Mind.

Let me share one of my experiences: Normally, when I'm in some trouble or there is some decision that I cannot make, then I normally do Ardas and then pick a Parchi (Yes/No written on paper and folded). Most of the time I do get the proper signals from Atma or good forces or say from the Middle path, but there were many cases where I was shown certain signals, thoughts, and other things which led me to very wrong directions (but still not going opposite). It was later that I learnt that it was the wrong forces (Mind's play) which led me to wrong direction. Then I asked, why I was NOT warned before the fact and the answer came Free-Will and a chance to learn something.

I was told the following technique using which one could differentiate between the thought coming from within Atma or Mind: "The thoughts which came in the back of mind for a split second and there is NO quickness is involved is definitely coming from Atma, but whenever the thought is coming continuously and with haste then is definitely coming from Mind".

​I'm not saying that she is being led to opposite direction, she is sticking so much with equality that she fails to comprehend what other person is referring to. I was just trying to say to continue her path as she is doing but avoiding the pitfalls by clinging to certain so-called Equality ideas. in this particular she fails to understand that it is NOT the matter of Man vs Women, it is just the matter of Respect as per my original reply.

One more thing, Mind does NOT always led us to opposite directions, it sometimes let us cling to a certain concept that we're so deep within that particular theme that we forgot to realize that we've to go further.

das 

​very strange, I fail to understand where I pointed or suggested the above. I guess you are so attached with Men vs Women that you fail to understand the core what the other person is saying. Also, I did NOT say, stop enjoying the experiences, I just suggested to use them for the further enhancement and they in themselves are not real, just use them as a bridge.

But anyways, what I had to say, I've already said that. Nothing more to say. It's your Mind, your Life and free-will, you CHOOSE what you want to do.

​I'm posting this reply not to prove that you're not Spiritual, but just trying to show you the another aspect of what you call "I see God in everything and everyone". But please don't take it personally, its just somethings from personal experience.

"Seeing God in everything and everyone" is the second last stage on the Spiritual journey. At that stage one (I) cease to exist. One no longer tries to prove his/her point; One no longer tries to dump his/her thinking (point of view) on others. In other words, it is easier to say that "I see God in everything and everyone", but it is the practical stage. As long as you've certain like and/or dislikes or desires (even serving others) you're far from that stage and I'm sure that you too (like me) have strong likes/dislikes, I'm basing my this statement on your posts on this forum. So, please stop pretending and betraying yourself by thinking that you're seeing above the physical level. e.g Can you imagine that dead rotten Pig is laying in the street and you're very lovingly trying to eat it? You think beyond physical? Here my point is: It is the 'My version or point of view is correct' problem; sometimes its a good idea to think from another angle.

And don't take this rotten animal example to your heart and try things out; e.g there are some aghori sadhus who say that they do see God in everything and all opposites are illusion and therefore they perform some very wrong practices e.g eat disguising things including human flesh, feces. Their problem is the same that: They don't understand the real meaning but have started to act superficially. Again mind is at play.

Secondly, the experiences you're taking about since childhood are good, they are good as reward but at the same time they are NOT the real Spiritual experiences.........no pun intended but I don't want you to face the same problem many of us have faced. There are 2 aspects of this experiences:

1. They are good and should be treated as some reward but they in themselves are nothing, in-fact these are "The" most hard obstacles that one needs to cross.

2. Secondly, even the so-called ghosts (negative entities in lower planes) can Astral travel and can tell the past, present and future. They can also see other worlds, things like we do in our out-of-body travels. So, it proves that the experiences you're talking about does NOT hold that much Spiritual value as one seem them to attach. Just check if these experiences are holding you back to learn anything new. There is NO guarantee that whatsoever you're feeling, seeing, experiencing in these "experiences" are real. It is the game of Mind. He (Mind) is very clever, he can offer you something in which you're interested but his real intention is to hold you off from real stuff. 

These experiences are good as long as one learns from them and move forward.

From my personal experience, some time back I had these so-called experiences, at first I started to act like you that I know better as I've Spiritual experiences. But then I realized that these experiences are not taking me any further. So, eventually I lost interest in them. But then again, some Spiritual force/entity told me that even tough those experiences were from mind but those were good. In other words, I was told that it was good to have those experiences but one needs to take them in the limited positive sense and those experiences should act as catalyst that if I'm enjoying these so much, what the further stage holds for etc. They are good and bad at the same time depending upon how it is helping you.

At last, again, my intention is NOT to prove you wrong or NOT to say that your experiences are nothing......but just trying to warn (positively) you the hidden agendas in these experiences. We should stop thinking that these are somehow Spiritual experiences and but still should enjoy these experiences (they are good).

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Man: A man went to the doctor complaining of insomnia.
Doctor: The doctor gave him a thorough examination, found absolutely nothing physically wrong with him, and then told him, "Listen, if you ever expect to cure your insomnia, you just have to stop taking your trouble to bed with you."
Man: "I know," said the man, "but I can’t. My wife refuses to sleep alone."
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Man: Man goes to see a wizard and says "can you lift a curse that was put on me years ago ?"
Wizard: "Maybe," says the wizard, "if you can remember the exact words of the curse ?"
Man: The man replies without hesitation "I pronounce you man and wife ..."
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Little boy: A little boy, at a wedding looks at the bride and asks, “Why are you wearing white?"
Bride: Bride replies, “The bride is in white because she’s happy and this is the happiest day of her life.”
Little boy: A little boy then asks the groom: “Well then, why are your wearing black?”
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Wife: "What are you doing?"
Husband : Nothing.
Wife : "Nothing...? You've been reading our marriage certificate for an hour."
Husband : "I was looking for the expiration date."
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Two men are discussing their lives.
One says, "I’m getting married. I’m tired of a messy apartment, dirty dishes, and no clothes to wear."
The other one says, "I’m getting divorced for the same reasons."
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Man: You've brought religion into my life.
Woman: Really? How?
Man: Until I met you, I didn't believe in Hell.
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Married men live longer than single men, but married men are more willing to die.
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Love may be blind, but marriage is a real eye-opener.
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Why do couples hold hands during their wedding day? simple it is just a formality like two boxers shaking hands before the fight begins!!
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"Honey," said this husband to his wife, "I invited a friend home for supper."
"What? Are you crazy? The house is a mess, I haven't been shopping, all the dishes are dirty, and I don't feel like cooking a fancy meal!"
"I know all that."
"Then why did you invite a friend for supper?"
"Because the poor fool's thinking about getting married."
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GUEST:

I might be wrong, but to me it seems like your intention is not to understand. Something like people who oppose all religions but at the same time don't pursue the real Truth; their sole intension is to prove all religions wrong. I'm not saying that everything written in religions is truth. What I'm saying is that: the indicator of truths are mentioned in religions but it is YOU who have to find the truth. So, proving all religions wrong (ritualism and dogmatic stuff) is fine BUT that should be balanced with the search within self. Otherwise, you'll just end up going nowhere.

e.g There are directions written on boards/signs on the highway, the boards in itself are NOT the truth. The boards/signs are merely the indicators where Truth might exist. It is US who have to reach the truth by taking the help from signs or search yourself (do not read the boards). Either way, the whole game is to reach the Source. Now, replace the boards with religions. Religions are good only as long as they are taking you towards the Source but at the same time religions are bound to be corrupted after some time with dogmatic stuff. So, use Common sense; and move forward instead of just gripping about everything.

At last, religious books does NOT have all the answers. They are just pointing where one could find the answers.

See first of all, it is only The God who can provide you with clearcut and correct answer. Rest of us can only answer as per our own real understanding (which may or may not be correct or in-between).

That been said, here is what I understood till this point in my journey (since all the previous births). In future this understanding could be more refined or replaced by another understanding depending upon the stage. But always bottom line is: We should try to go towards the source and anything that brings you closer to Source or makes you more determined to go to Source is always good.

Apart from your question "Why hasn't He made us like Himself so that we also neither think wrong nor do wrong?" there are other couple of questions like the following which made me think what and where are we in reality.
Why lot of people are suffering (especially children)?
Why there are so many problems in this world: mainly WAR, HUNGER, DISEASES?
Why the corrupt/manipulators are the top leaders or almost all countries?

And before people jump and say, oh these are the karmas; please understand that I do believe in karma and yes, it is because of karma. But from where karma comes? and what was the original bad karma that got worse? and so on..........just see the following images, my heart melts to see anyone suffering..........As Guru Nanak Dev Ji says...... "Tain Ki Dard Na Aaya......"

Hunger:

WAR:

So, my understanding is that: The working of this universe including all the necessary Laws (including karma) is being handled by some entity (call it Negative power (in sense of hindering Soul's Spiritual progress) , Kaal, Mind, Time, etc.). He is the owner of this universe. He is not kind. His sole intention is to keep its resources (Souls) trapped in his world. Most of the people, refer him as God by mistake. Some more knowlegable call the other side of the coin (Positive force) as God but real God is beyond them. Actually, Kaal (Negative power) as well as Positive power (Akal) were created by HIM (real Truth/God). Kaal was given the ownership and knowledge of this universe by the God.

Now, the question remains why the hell real God gave the ownership to the Kaal? and Why God didn't interfere in the world's problems directly?
- The way I understood is that: God is bound by his bhagats (you can find references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji). Kaal is the bhagat of God and he had done very hard meditation on real God and then got all this. He (real God) does took pity (and at the same time honoring Kaal's promise) and send various Gurus and Saints to remind us our real home. But Gurus and Saints are also bound by the rules, so they can't just take everyone with them. They can only tell us the real stuff and then if anyone is willing to trust and work, then he can use his free-will and get out of this Kaal's world. Kaal is also bound by one rule that: He cannot stop anyone from going beyond but he can play tricks to lead us to false source.

So, here is the condensed version of my thinking:
1. This whole universe is run by Kaal (Negative power) and Maya (Illusion). But the real God's Essence is always present everywhere. Nothing can operate without that Essence.
2. Rules are this universe are setup in such a way that noone can go beyond the Mind. e.g If one wants to get God by his meditation alone then it is not possible; because when we die, many millions of living creatures (germs etc.) also die within our body and due to this we've to pay the karma etc.
* Understanding the first 2 points are very important because it means that whatsoever we can see, feel is fake and we should be determined to go beyond. Now, the next steps are: *
3. The God allows all this play because Kaal is HIS bhagat and he took promises from God. or May be God really wants us to experience this. Only God knows.
4. The only way out is via Guru's Kirpa. e.g Karmas cannot take us beyond; therefore the whole hope is Guru who will take the seeker slowly via Middle path.
5. Regularly real God sends the liberated ones (real Saints) to remind us our truth home.
6. We do NOT have to find the Guru. Guru will find us once the seeker is ready. i.e after exhausting all the possible ways and hard work.
7. So, what we can do NOW is: Naam, Daan, and Isnaan. Keep meditating with longing for HIM; give charity (not only money but help people in need).

One Saint has given the following flow-chart to achieve Salvation:
1. Do the company of Sant/Mahapurash/Saint.
2. If you cannot do that, then do Naam (Meditation); Dan/Charity of 10% of your income to needy; Isnan (Bath).
3. If you cannot do Naam, Dan, and Isnan, then do not overburden yourself with sins. In other words, avoid doing sins.
4. If you cannot refain from sins, then it is better to die because without doing steps 1, 2, 3 you are bound to fall to lower planes.

But these days, it is very hard to find a real Brahmgyani and therefore it seems like 2nd point is the best of both worlds and a time will come (may be in this birth or next) when one will meet the True Guru. Till then, just keep trying.

If you want to learn more, then the following are the best:
- http://www.santmat-thetruth.de/tl_files/allgemein-content/schriften/pdf/books/anurag-sagar-en.pdf
- The Matrix movie 1 and 2: this basically shows how could illusion could work. This particular movie has many many very deep concepts but one could understand only that resonates with one's current level.

das

There is no point in reciting fast just for the sake of doing certain number of paths in shortest span of time. But some people try to do that to prove that someone is wrong who used to do certain paths in very short span of time.

The real punch here is: One can even do one Japji Sahib path in 1 second. If you want to try it, here is the technique. and Best of Luck. I guess by the time anyone attains (not learn) that technique, that person would loose the interest to do path in shortest span of time. He will just enjoy.

Raise your consciousness. e.g Light is treated as the fastest; but in reality Thought/Mind is the fastest. Now, remember that even Thoughts/Mind is travelling within some space. Bottom line is: Mind/Thought cannot travel faster than the Soul because Soul is everywhere. In other words, the distance travelled vs the time taken can only be measured IFF we've 2 seperate points of interest, but as Soul is everywhere then there is NO time NO distance. Soul is the medium in which Time and Space operates.

Therefore, the factor one reaches higher in the state (Physical, Astral, and Casual), one experience different time as compared to one on earth. But if one wants to travel beyond the time, then one needs to go beyond the Mind, beyond the Casual realm, i.e to the Source of Time itself. Once anyone reaches the Soul state, then there is no time whatsoever. and consequently one can do any number of paths in 1 second or 0 second. Time is just a factor of Mind.

That's where the concept of Parallel universes, Time Slip comes from.

For a lame person like me, it is almost impossible not to think of anything. So, instead of battling with the mind, put the mind to some different positive thing.

There are couple of ways to do it:

1. As Sat1176 has already mentioned that "Just make the mind listen to what is being said.....".
2. If you happen to do Path from Gutaka, then glance on the Sehari, Bihari, Ukar, Dolankar etc. on each and every word. In other words, your mind will be absorbed in the noticing the Matras in the Gurbani.
3. If you happen to do Path from Gutaka, then visualize that you're sitting in front of your Guru.
4. When you happen to do the mental jap or reciting with Sound; i.e not reading from Gutaka, then the best is as Gurbani states: "Gur Ki Murat Man Mein Dhayan.....". It is the most potent/powerful.

Usually, 1, 2, 3 are for the starters and then 4th one is for advanced.

das

doesn't this Bulleh Shah's poem seems to fit us for this debate:

Beautifully sung:

Not a believer inside the mosque, am I
Nor a pagan disciple of false rites
Not the pure amongst the impure
Neither Moses, nor the Pharaoh

Bulleh! to me, I am not known

Not in the holy Vedas, am I
Nor in opium, neither in wine
Not in the drunkard`s intoxicated craze
Niether awake, nor in a sleeping daze

Bulleh! to me, I am not known

In happiness nor in sorrow, am I
Neither clean, nor a filthy mire
Not from water, nor from earth
Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth

Bulleh! to me, I am not known

Not an Arab, nor Lahori
Neither Hindi, nor Nagauri
Hindu, Turk, nor Peshawari
Nor do I live in Nadaun

Bulleh! to me, I am not known

Secrets of religion, I have not known
From Adam and Eve, I am not born
I am not the name I assume
Not in stillness, nor on the move

Bulleh! to me, I am not known

I am the first, I am the last
None other, have I ever known
I am the wisest of them all
Bulleh! do I stand alone?

Bulleh! to me, I am not known

A wife went to coma and the husband thought that she is dead now. So, 4 persons were carrying his wife on shoulder to the funeral ground for the last rites. On the way, the bed on which they are carrying the his wife stuck to a electicity pole on the road due to which she came out of coma and thus came back to life. Everyone was happy.

After couple of months, that man's wife really died and when they were again taking her body to funeral ground; the man was leading the crowd very actively and carefully and was repeating: "Please be very careful, she is my wife, please take care NOT to hit the pole".

I guess, you understand why he didn't want the bed to hit the pole second time......If you're married for more than 10-15 years, then you would understand!!

First of all, please ponder what this website has become? I used to come to this website to get some great topics on Meditation, and in general Spiritual stuff (regardless of religion) but now mostly I find Male vs Female debates. Come on people, don't do that......I try to be out of these discussions but I still have a so-called Mind which wants to post in favour vs against. Bottom line is: Please keep your equality and non-equality concepts to yourself.

Secondly, my understanding for the above mentioned Shabad is: Almost everywhere in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, GuruJi has taken examples from our normal life to make a point for God. Examples are always presented in a simple manner to which everyone can relate to. e.g In Ancient times (regardless of religion/caste/creed), mostly husbands (males) are being considered as higher authority. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just stating the general fact in this world in the past times. Satee means: who is faithful to one's husband by heart, speech and actions. Satee also means: A woman who immolates herself on her deceased husband's funeral pyre. Basically, both the definations are same at the core: She who thinks that her husband is the ONLY world, her husband is One that she feels is God and there is no point being without God; All the energy is spent on the person who you consider as God (physical husband).

Now, keeping the above defination of Husband and Wife; GuruJi is making a point taking the Physical example of that kind of Husband and Wife. I guess here we are missing the whole point: The core of the Shabad is NOT about the Waheguru/God or Husband or Wife. The core is the LOVE (unselfish) and SURRENDER. The shabad is about a PROCESS and NOT about the tools to achieve the process.

Now, let's answer this: What's wrong with considering one's husband/wife as God?
No one can aim at Sky; one needs some object to aim. Same way, how could we love something which we don't understand? We do say God is this and that, he is Nirankar, present everywhere etc. etc. but we (I'm also included in we) could not understand His true Saroop and without Truly understanding the Saroop and/or Charactertics, one cannot Love. So, the STARTING point is Love His creation, your immediate surroundings be it your Husband, Wife, Children, Children, Parents, fellow humans. And there is nothing wrong is treating a husband as God initially, he is just a tool to put your concentration upon. Same thing goes for Wife, there is nothing wrong is treating a Wife as God. Bottom line is: learn the Process.

Even for the real path, the very first requirement is to consider your Guru to be The God. We do need something to aim at: even so-called Katarpanthi (rigid religious people) who says that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our Guru, they do concentrate on the Guruji or say Shabad. Shabad is not the God but still we're concentrating on it because: God's name is greater than Himself. So, all in all, everyone needs to learn the process using some tools and no person is the same; you cannot put everyone on the same boat. One thing could work for some but for another different tools might work. For some wives, considering one's physical husband as God might work but for other treating his wife as God might work. It is because they are at different Spiritual levels and we need to understand that. The real lesson is: We're in a prison (very complex Matrix/Maya) and we should use whatsoever tools we can to be on the CENTER path to God.

Why since the creation of universe, male is considered higher?
The real cause for treating Husband as God did NOT come from Manu Laws. It's way before that. When Kaal asked God for the seed to populate his world, then God created Adhya/Maya/Shakti/Female-principle/SEED and instructed her to go to Kaal (male force) and create this universe. So, in other words, the seed/female (not yet in physical form) was created for the sake of creation and was instructed to follow whatever Kaal says. Maya is responsible for the impermanent and illusory world, but people are beguiled by her and remain separated from God. It is the Maya who hid the secret of her REAL source (Absolute God) and pretended Kaal being the God. This is also the reason that sometimes it is said that women cannot be trusted. Here I'm not suggesting Right vs Wrong; I'm merely suggesting the core of this universe.

One Saint has given the following flow-chart to achieve Salvation:
1. Do the company of Sant/Mahapurash/Saint (the one who is already One with One).
2. If you cannot do that, then do Naam (Meditation); Dan/Charity of 10% of your income to needy; Isnan (Bath).
3. If you cannot do Naam, Dan, and Isnan, then do NOT overburden yourself with sins. In other words, avoid doing sins.
4. If you cannot refain from sins, then it is better to die because without doing steps 1, 2, 3 you are bound to fall to lower planes in this Matrix system.

das