tSingh

Gurfateh

I would be mindful of defining dhyaan (meditation) and naam simran as some of you are talking about them as though they are the same.

Gurfateh

Just to clarify, the Udasis didn't turn into Mahants. Mahant simply means head of the institution. In all ashrams and deras you'll find a Mahant.

As a means for running an institution, I think it works very well if the Mahant is decent. For example, Mahant Tirath Singh of the Sewapanthis is a very decent bloke. This means that the institution is always pushing to do more and more sewa. There is no factionalism, in-fighting and corruption because the man is also assumed to be a highly spiritual person and all have great respect for him. Likewise for Sri Mahant Gian Dev Singh ji of the Nirmalae.

This is the same set up for other sampradavan derae, akharae and ashrams (I'm not sure if it's the same for Nihangs).

There then can be problems. I have been told of one case where the chelas murdered one Mahant to secure the wealth of the instution in question!

If it works, it works well. So personally, I see a need for a human authority as I've seen little evidence of a committee working effectively without falling prey to sore egos and factionalism.

Equally do remember that the Khalsa worked very well under one jathedar.

Gurfateh

I agree with a lot of that. The thing I'd disagree with is the assumption that different groups equals problems. It is important to remember that Guru ji created these groups for a reason. The strict ahimsa of the Sewapanthis, the scholarly mysticism of the Nirmalae, the warrior lifestyle of Nihang. I believe these groups are important because they are units that create that whole unity. It is as natural as the diversity of mindset you would find in any five people. The traditional sampradavan seem united in a mutual accpetance.

The issue of modern groups is different because they have not been created by the Gurus. We must therefore question who has created them, for what reason, and on what grounds do they qualify as Sikh. The modern groups seem divisive because of each assuming to be the 'only' correct path.

therefore this interest in sampardavan means a clash of ideologies both political and spiritual.

Yes, they're dhadis

If you wish to see the types of intruments used in raag kirtan before the vaaja, see the old photo in any copy of Mahan Kosh by Kahn Singh Nabha. It has taus, dilruba, rabaab, sitar, sarangi, sarunda, etc.

Gurfateh

I have seen his name spelt both ways (with a 'k' and a 'gh') in gurmukhi script in the Sewapanthi literature itself. Bhai Ghanaiya was given Guru Gobind Singh ji's blessings to create the Sewapanthi order who are still very active today. For example, the Kar Sewa wale grew out of Sewapanthis.

The movement encapsulated the behaviour of Bhai Ghanaiya at a spiritual level also by giving 'water of life' to Muslims and Hindus through the recitation of Sufi mystical writings, Hindu scripture and Gurbani. Furthermore, their physical maryada become almost jain-like with regards the sanctity of life.

Hopefully, there wil be a detailed website about the sampraday within the nexts few months.

Gurfateh

So, if Jagjit Singh (AKJ) has said he wrote the post...

then Akali Sirtor Singh is a liar. Judging from his posts he knows as much about Taruna Dal as my little 1 year old niece...but to lie about it all as well

...what is going on in the sangat? jeez

Gurfateh

My sources;

Giani Balwant Singh ji Kotta Guru 'Sri Nirmal Panth Bodh'

Mahant Bishan Singh ji 'Amrit Bachan te Sat Darshan'

Gurfateh

It's also worth mentioning that both rara sahib and hoti mardan are sub-groups within Nirmala samparda.

Just to restate that for Gabroo

Baba Gurditta (whom Baba Sri Chander gave his topi to as a sign of passing on leadership of Udasi samparda) was given to Baba Sri Chander by his father Guru Hargobind Sahib (nb - the topi still exists in Kiratpur)

Baba Gurditta was also the father of Guru Har Rai.

Baba Kirpal who fought along side Guru Gobind Singh ji and killed Hayat Khan with his club, as narrated in Bachitar Natak.

Did the Gurus reject the Udasis? Doesn't seem like it to me.

Dera Baba Nanak was an important centre for the Udasin along with Nanak Matta among others.

Many of the Matre written by prominent Udasin (Adi-Udasi and Bakhshish) pay homage to Guru Nanak. The frescoes that depict both Baba Sri Chand and Guru ji, always have Guru Nanak sat in the prominent position with Baba Sri Chander underneath.

I can't see any difference between this and the Taliban bombing those ancient buddhist statues in Afghanistan. Same justification; anti-Sikh/anti-Islamic.

Gurfateh

Ah the seeming paradox of God - karma and hukam

Personally I don't believe in evil, only haumai and avidya. This causes people to act in a way people term 'evil'. Why do they? Because of karma. However, the free will is that we can always escape this situation by becoming brahm-gyani or having tat vidya. When we make that effort then the hukam aspect is involved, as we evolve and start to awaken from our deep sleep.

Also bear in mind that Paramatma is 'aad such, jugaad sach, hai bhi sach, nanak hosi bhi sach'; beyond time. Therefore karma and hukam can co-exist depending on your perspective. God is beyond time therefore, all karma is hukam.

Gurfateh

I've just chanced upon visiting a Sewapanthi Tikana in the last hour and seen an image of a previous Sewapanthi mahant (not included in Sant Lal Chand's updated 'Sant Rattan Mala' whih has images of most key Sewapanthis up to the modern day), called Mahant Shankar Das ji, who is sat posed with a very large old-style dilruba. The photo seems to be from the beginning of the last century. Very beautiful.

In response to Mugermanch's post, I would also suggest that to enrich understanding of kirtan, we should listen to Dhrupad. This style preceeded khyaal (the style in virtually all modern indian raag sangeet) and is deeply spiritual and contemplative by nature. It is slow moving and the aim is to induce meditative religious experience. The sloks sung are religious, often from the bhavagad gita. There are three existent paramparas, the Dagar gharana (most famous), Mishra gharana and the Mallick gharana of Patna.

This style was prevelant at the time of the early Gurus. And this seems consistent with writing on gurmat sangeet. For example, even G. S. Mansukhani writes that kirtan should not contain extended bol-taans or any other vocal gymnastics and should neither be overly elated or depressive. This implies dhrupad is more suited. I've seen that Bhai Avtar Singh ji has sung kirtan in dhrupad on his 'Kirtan Parampara' series.

There is a beautiful story from the life of one of the elder Dagar brothers of last century, that he attended a festival celibrating the birthday of the key historical exponent of dhrupad. The people who had attended this event in the birthplace of this singer had come from the local factory. At the event were many established singers who tried their best and failed to impress the crowd who were more interested in filmi songs and qawwali. When the elder Dagar brother took the stage the crowd implored him to sing a qawwal, he had a bit bantar with them and asked them if they knew whose anniversary this was, if they knew why he was famous, and that he would sing to them the style that made him important. The crowd listened to his alaap (non-rhythmical setting of the raag) in complete silence for three hours! When he paused some of the crowd implored him to continue. When he finished he asked them what they thought. They said that they had never heard this before, didn't understand it but felt something very strong 'like the sound of the mandir's bells ringing'!!

So yes, understand Raags, but I would personally say that it is more important to listen to and understand dhrupad recordings.

Gurfateh

On the issue of Raag kirtan in the samparday...

The Sewapanthis performed kirtan in shudh raag. In fact Sant Shaam Singh, who did 72 years unpaid seva of raag kirtan twice a day at Darbar Sahib on the sarunda, wrote a text on Raag Kirtan. I was hoping to find it at the Swapanthi dera under his name in Amritsar, but was informed by THE expert on Sewapanthis, Dr. Gurmukh Singh, that it has since been stolen. It was part of a large granth including other important Sewapanthi writings. He himself then asked Mahant Tirath Singh ji who said it has gone and it was the only copy to his knowledge. This is very disappointing indeed, as one can only assume it would contain authorative itihas on gurmat sangeet.

I have spoken also to a Nirmala authority who stated that the Nirmalae formed their own form of kirtan (I didn't ask whether it was in raag or not), that included Gurbani, katha and their own couplets.

I also read that Akhara Brahm Boota (or possibly Sangalwara, both being the epicentres of 19th Udasin activity before the formation of the Bada and Choti Panchayti Akharas in Haridwar) had upto a hundred students at one point, many of whom were learning kirtan (and thus I assume, gurmat sangeet)

Gurfateh

I've been meaning to make this correction for quite a while.

To survive, the Sewapanthis moved with the times and have seemingly modified to Tat Khalsa ideology. They have close ties with the Chief Khalsa Diwan, they administer amrit in accordance with the SGPC at occasional darbars and follow standard rehit maryada. This process started with Mahant Gulab Singh, who was amritdhari himself and emphasised it's importance. There is also a recorded account of how they managed to hold onto their deras after the Gurdwara Bill was passed.

However, some Mahants and Sevapanthi Sants are not amritdhari, and some still have kempt kesh (more so in Haryana). Although I haven't asked anyone about it, I'd imagine that they did this so that they could still carry on their fundamental role of sewa effectively by being accepted and influential upon those who who held influence over the panth.

Equally they still have links back to samprada, for example, the influential Mahant Ishvar Das ji Udasi from Jullundur is on their board. Having spoken to these Udasis they are tuned in to the latest events among the Sewapanthis, demonstrating a close relationship.

Furthermore, the scholarly side of the Sewapanthis still exists with the recently publishing of Sant Surjit Singh Sewapanthi's texts on works by Pandit Hardyal, Pandit Gulab Singh Nirmala, etc

I haven't clarified whether it still exists, but there was historically a subsect of the Nirmalae called 'samparda adanshahi' based in Nurpur (now in Pakistan) which was the Sewapanthi centre (Tikana) up to partition. I'd imagine Pandit Nischal Singh Sewapanthi who was not only a great philanthropist but a learned scholar of shaastra, who studied at Kashi, was part of this group. Unfortunately I haven't the time to visit Dera Santpura in Yamun Nagar to find out from Mahant Paramjeet Singh - does anyone else know?

Gurfateh

I thought I'd try to add a little more about the Udasis beyond what is provided on sarbloh.

In all the frescoes I have seen in Udasis Akharae, Baba Sri Chander is sat to the left or right of Guru Nanak Dev who is paramount. Udasis also commonly recite Baba Sri Chander ji's ode to Guru Nanak Dev.

One important point to bear in mind is that, when the Gurdwara Reform bill was passed, it provided a direct threat to all samprada deras/akharas/ashrams, with their individualistic practices. Instead, there was a shift to an imposed orthodoxy in philosophy and practice created by the SGPC along the lines of the Tat Khalsa ideology.

The Udasis had inherited a lot of land and ashrams from the maharajas. The SGPC were keen to get hold of the land and institutions. After court cases between Udasis and SGPC, it was decided that it was possible to have SGGS in the instution and not be a Gurdwara (and hence avoid having to be taken over by the SGPC), as long as Guru Granth Sahib wasn't the main focus of the building (can someone add more here?).

The immediate reaction to this was two fold. A number of sub-groups distanced themselves from Sikhi, and claimed they were hindu. Others maintained their Sikh identity.

Sulakhan Singh has produced good research on this area, and references modern texts written by Udasis that show this clash of identity in response to the changes of the 19/20th century. I'll try to get these latter on.

It's interesting to note that the bakshish groups (and from my experience those started by Sangat Sahib) are closer to Sikhi than those from the four Adi-udasis, but that could be crap as it's merely what I've seen! For example, the three key akharas in Amritsar; Akhara Sangalwara, Akhara Brahm Boota and Akhara Bala Nand are all Sangat Sahib and all are very close to Darbar sahib.

Equally the identity among grassroot Udasis seems to vary greatly. Last week I met an amritdhari Udasi mahant, who wore the 5 ks along with the peach bana. His sadhana was very much Udasi, his mindset was very much khalsa.

You will find Udasis in all corners of India. This is due to

there is some basic information at www.babasrichand.org

Gurfateh

There is a translation of Uggardanti and Shaster Naam Mala in a small volume (also missing from Dr. Jodh Singh's 2 volumes) by Harjinder Singh Kanwal. You can find out details on the Sikh-heritage website. I couldn't comment on how competent the translation is.

Gurfateh

I thought it might be pertinent in light of Truth Singh's post to add that, ,correct me if I'm wrong but, Bhai Gurdas himself very famously paraphrased the hadiths of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) by stating, 'take one step toward God and God will take a thousand toward you'

Gurfateh

According to my mum, I was actually born with a sarangi in my hands playing alaap of Raag Malkauns...just started their I guess...my teacher was Amir Khusrou, who lives in Pudsey. He taught me for about 2 weeks, and after that I started my own gharana, 'jaitee gharana'.

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

Gurfateh

What am I trying to prove here, as you state?

That it is dangerous, to say the least, to make statements such as 'why are there no PROPA intelligent black people?' and 'it all can't be environmental'.

If you generally believe that black people are genetically less intelligent than others, then that is racism, that is not supported by research.

You see the next thing to ask is just HOW are they measuring intelligence? Early research by the likes of Eysenck is notoriously flawed because of it's ethnocentrism. I recall friends saying they'd been to a lecture of his when the whole audience booed because of his dodgy assumptions about 'intelligence'.

Psychologists like Howard Gardner goes further and points out that there are multiple types of intelligences, not just one thing.

My point was that it is nigh impossible to come to a clear statement when it comes to psychology or genetics as it is one side of an argument, using one slant on research.

If you study any of these subjects from A-level upwards you are introduced to the fact that there is huge scope for evaluating these things, and that what is taught is usually fairly questionnable.

Gurfateh

A couple of ammendments;

Sri Dasam Granth is also at the same level as Guru Granth Sahib at Takht Patna Sahib. No doubt in most Nihang-run Gurdwarae Dasam Granth if not all three Granths will be on gur-gaddi.

Although N30 is correct, that the old way of getting a copy of Sarbloh Granth was by having to speak to Budda Dal and they would send you to their printers and have on copy pressed up for you...Sri Sarbloh Granth is now available in two volumes from CSJS publishers (through DTF bookshop in UK). There is extensive notes under the text in punjabi, which you'll need!

Sarbloh Granth, historically, was not so 'secret' and 'hidden'. Pandit Tara Singh Narotam, the famous Nirmala scholar, wrote about it. Other Nirmalae also studied it (Sant Jagjit Singh Herkhowal mentions it among his reading list when he studied with Mahant Suhail Singh Nirmala)

Gurfateh

One last thing N30...

KS, I know for a fact that a lot of Sikhs are/were very good at hockey...does that mean they are 'propa' at this sport and must therefore be 'slower' intellectually?

The chinese are very good at table-tennis, therefore they mustn't be very good at thinking - tell that to confuscius.

How many black table-tennis players have you met?

Have you seen any black badminton players?

How many black swimmers have you seen?

How many black tennis players are there?

How many internationally reknowned black golf players are there?

How many famous black Formula One drivers are there? etc

Your grossly stereotyped theory is flawed and is racist, whether intended or not.

You are not stating 'facts' but huge stereotypes.

Your assumption that being proficient in one area, means that an ENTIRE ethinic group must be insufficient in another area (e.g. brains) amounts to the kind of warped racist theories using eugenics the Nazis were spouting 70 years ago so that they could try to eliminate Jews and gypsies.

Gurfateh

You see KS, your starting to sound a little bit like Hitler now...

To suggest that the fact that there are no 'PROPA intelligent black people' and that can't just be 'environmental' really equates to EXTREME racism by implying (as some Psychologists have historically, to great ridicule) that black people are GENETICALLY, hence naturally, less intelligent.

And just what criteria do you set for 'PROPA intelligent black people'?

Now, lets look at some other statictics relating to afro-carribeans in the UK, such as the fact that there is high rates of black youth who do not see education through to their GCSEs, that there are 4 times more black people diagnosed with a serious mental disorders than white people, etc.

A racist would say that they are therefore intellectually inferior genetically.

A social scientist will point out that educational achievement is very strongly linked to socio-economic status, housing issues, life-stress events, home environment, social attitudes, etc.

You say it must be more than environmental? Well then explain the difference in results for Pakistani Punjabi educational achievement against Indian Punjabi educational achievement, as there will be very little genetic differences between punjabis.

Gurfateh

Another reference;

Max Macauliffe's 'Sikh Religion' (1909) Volume V, pages 2, 3, 51, 55, 59, 60, 95, 219, 240; among these pages it lists the three wives, when he married them, who gave birth to which Sahibzadae, the fact that Mata Sundri and Mata Sahib Kaur were sent to Delhi.

Using the notes from Macauliffe, he states that Mata Jeeto gave birth to Sahibzadae Zorawar Siingh in Sambat year 1747 and that this comes from 'Suraj Prakash' by Kavi Santokh Singh and Gurbilas literature.

You can find copies of the hukamname acredited to Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Kaur in Ganda Singh's 'Hukamnamae' book, issued in the post-Guru Gobind Singh ji era.

Mata Sundri's angeetha (cremation place) is Gurdwara Bala Sahib in New Delhi, whereas Mata Jeeto's is at Gurdwara Agampur at Anandpur Sahib who is recorded in the historical texts as passing away in 1700.

Gurfateh

Where's my evidence? You must have missed it.

Please just look 8 postings above this one to see a list of evidence, indepenant of my own 'hearsay'.

Where's yours?

Gurfateh

Good question Aman Singh!

I personally interpret Gurbani as taking your point much further than just caste.

Take for example Guru Arjun Dev's statements in Sukhmani Sahib like 'The Brahm-Giani treats freind and foe alike'...this is more than just caste. How can you be 'khalis' or 'nirmal' until you have stopped looking down on ANYONE, how can you be pure until you've stopped holding negative thoughts about anyone?

The 'thing' that holds grudges, has likes and dislikes is your ego and one of the key teachings of the Gurus is the removal of the ego, then there is no dukh, only the bliss of union. Humility and compassion arise when we stop thinking about ourselves and do seva of others. Seva is a mindset, an approach to life.