drawrof

I read the book,

I found that anyone who wants to understand sikhi in the context of a social, political and dynamic environment will benefit from this as we are so often introduced to a form of sikhi which is contextualised in a vacum of high ideals, morals, ethics....

I'd like to agreee with Shaheediyan here.

Although I am of the firm belief that words in themselves take on a different contextualised meaning depending on the receiver of the message. For instance, Maya and its form/nuances/ontological position will differ depending on whether you talk to a vaishnu or shaiv (these 2 being used to describe 2 polar generic stances in a larger spectrum).

Shaheediyan, I agree with you about faridkotee teeka, but I'm interested in why you chose that specific teeka to be a signifier of a traditional exegesis?

Thanks in advance

Hello Folks, I will contribute here by addressing some issues brought for by my younger brother N30.

I actually came to conclusion with having vichar with many senior gurmukhs, even though bhramgyani does not need to have vikayaran in mind when explaining tat gyan of certain shabad, naturally it will not go against vikayaran rules created by guru maharaj themselves.

There are 2 suppositions here that are brought forth. Firstly, There is a supposition that viakaran was created by the gurus. Secondly, It is assumed that a ‘brahm gyani’ would naturally not go against these rules……is the postulate being brought forth that viakaran is somehow ‘mystical’ or ‘sacred’?

It's true that gurbani meaning cannot be bound to just grammar because its dhur ki bani but it also true that dhur ki bani was expressed in form of grammar.

Again, dhur ki bani…..what is meant by this? Does bani mean gurbani? Does it mean a the primal sound and its emanation? Does it refer to the state/stature of braham (ie. Baan, where N is a naana)?

I don't think its right to say that you don't need vikayaran to understand basic teachings of gurbani, its like saying you don't need english grammar to understand poetry of english. It goes hand in hand, the main problem is not vikayaran/grammar but the main problem is in the past, scholars have to tried to bind gurbani with soo called vikayaran rules which were inconsistent with gurbani itself. These so called vikayaran/grammar rules were refuted by many mahapursh ie- sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale.

I see viakaran as a means to codify gurbani. For one to assume that one can understand or experience a sublime state via codified linguistics is a bit far fetched, but to say that a mahapurash (who we would not know is one or not unless we are ones ourself or have had experiences to make us believe so or have faith that they are or someone we have faith in believes that they are) also has its flaws. Kirpa/gurparsad is greater and beyond all means we use to try to connect with the higher source. Having kirpa in itself does not mean that the fine subtleties are mastered, although you are a walking-living example of the essence.

The vikayaran set full proof rules are still yet to be discovered, can be only discovered by Guru's grace.

Yes, if they need to be discovered and a great blanket statement that can be applied to everything

In order to discover it, this jiv surti's have to reach the level of guru's state when dhur ki bani was expressed in form of grammar by guru's themselves.

Again, there are pothi’s with gurbani that aren’t standard and can’t be used as a definitive standard because the grammar (per se) is not coherent with other such pothis. I also wonder at times whether bani is referring to the words of gurbani or whether it is referring to the state or experience of god/parmeshwar that is being experienced.

Frankly, no one has reached that level nor there is any need to reach that level, one cannot compare themselves with guru's state, that's why many mahapursh don't pay much need to do khoj of vikayaran rules or vikayaran modern rules but rather gives tat gyan of shabad(main thing) to jaigaso so they can reflect on the shabad. I mean main aim of life is to do abhyaas of gurbani. Whilst, we should encourage khoj of gurbani, there is certainly no need for everyone to start psycho analysis gurbani based on individual understanding of vikayaran. In the past people have tried to use vikayaran rules but failed and will continue to fail if they keep using their matt.

I know the essence of n30’s points come down to this last paragraph and I do agree with his main point

I've seen his pic here in brampton at one of the local sweet shops....any news?

I liked the article.

I liked his approach with everything. I'm glad he's thrown out these terms because anyone who isn't familiar can research them, and anyone who is familiar with the terms can do further research and see it for themselves.

Thanks

nuff pyaar m8, bhai sahib radio wallay (not sant like of pend 'radio' who drinks daudh all the time) was well cherdikallah inni'?

Dear cul,

I believe you mean to say according to panj sau sakhi, sau sakhi, prem sumarag granth, and kalki avtar savayay.....sikhs believe in kalki avtar..

I have not come into any mention of this in Guru Granth Sahib ji

Fair enough,

Why those 5? (I ask out of understanding the reasoning behind it)

Do they focus on chakars?

What is their view of kirtan?

Is meditation their crux for everything, is it any different for sikhs?

Thanks

simple question,

with the meditative aspect, what makes radhasoami's different than sikhs? (excluding saas-graas as per the akj).

thanks

Shaheediyan's post is well taken. I'll be more serious and offer something constructive from now on

Unbreakable, Nice points!

I personally don't think sikhi was meant to be a 'religion' per se, but due circumstances and developments have made it into that. On that premise alone, I think your argument is absolutely correct in the example above...

muslim- Mohammed is the saviour of all mankind

sikh-yeah but, the athiest's think we are cool.

gotta love the weather

Finally, up and running...until this locks me out. I gotta make this one quick and then I'll get back to everyone with those pm's....yes I do take credit cards and have a webcam now ....

Uggardanti was found appended to the patna bir. I have personally seen it in old gutka's. I suggest we abstain from using the word puratan because it indicates a definitive trend and stick to 'old' or 'puranay'...I know I sound anal, but you'll have needless debates about authenticities when those gutkay/birs could have been one offs! Amardeep, I haven't heard of it in any rehitnama's and it is considered apocryphal. We must also remember that mystifying things with 'rarities' has been a clever tactic of movements to enroll the disillusioned.

I've missed you guys. I'll be posting more...provided N30 hooks me up with some good lovin'.

my kot kot parnaam to all! Fateh and shalom

I believe I can fly, I believe I can touch the sky.....

oh shoot, thanks karmjeet! you're a veer !

so can I still masturbate?

Well,

to be honest, I don't see why discussing anything against hemkunt sahib is bad. Bhai vir singh is the person who founded the place according to his understanding of gur partap sooraj granth.

The professor, like many others, is trying to get people to look within gurbani. I find him quite boring to be honest, and there are probably 2 shabads of his I like (but that is mostly due to familiarity of growing up with them). Apart from that, He really doesn't go into great depth..he just deconstructs everything to a few basic notions...that becomes the ethical norm (like many missionaries) and then politicizes everything. For a dumb guy, I like the intellectual stuff. Speaking of which, there are things kala afghana had said that were interesting...I don't agree with his overall stance/view of things though.

I didn't get a chance to meet him, but again...very sad news. Let us celebrate all the good he did and all the positivity he shared.

Sorry, to add, most nirmallay I've come across or heard about have singh appended to their name.

Isn't this Darshan das's sect?...Darshan Das was murdered wasn't he?

The Sri Maan Sant from the Udasi Samparda doing Katha. Very good i must say

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7597/cap055fe2.th.png

I believe this is 'Jagat Hari ji'. I heard his katha as well. I found it to be very profound and deep....doesn't say much coming from a shallow guy with a bad sense of humor though

I don't read tikkay, I just make it up as I go because guruji talks to me directly...

When there is a revisionist mindset, the old vision has to systemically become obliterated and debunked.....the true merit lies in how seamlessly the new 'revised' model correlates to society and developed thought outside its own ecosystem

It is for this reason I believe it is an unraveling process as opposed to a scrooging naam/bhagti method!

Being born and raised in the west and seeing the many benefits of capitalism and its survival of the fittest in society, I circumvent the traditional bogus methods and go straight to the 'GHOSTBUSTERS'....

Question,

Sant= state of experience of the individual or title given to an achieved accolade?

This brings me to a real 'jalebi' because...things get sticky. Somehow the path of unraveling is seen as a path of linear evolvement in which case that really thin line (which I believe is referring to the bareekness of bibek buddhi') becomes very thick because of all the imposed baggage we attribute to an accorded lifestyle.

One suggestion for the sangat massive...stop idolizing sants, and actually take what they say seriously...otherwise its like knowing there is a nice blueberry cheesecake sitting in front of you, but no one having the urge or appreciation to dig in.