Eternal Sunset

Your Guru Sahib does not provide for you completley? You must go to other places?

No, Guru Sahib is POORA

so let me break it down for you

if its not from your Guru its maya

ask guru ji why we don't like maya.

I don't have a problem with Guru Granth Sahib being poora. This is precisely why I asked for a passage from gurbani about anal sex (allowed or forbidden?). Until now nobody has provided me with a single line about the issue. Gurbani is complete and does give advice on everything so what I did was just to apply Ja ka hirada sudh hai khoj sabad men leh. It so happens that Guru Gobind Singh makes a reference to the Koka Shastras as a reference to sexuality as in "for these issues look in there". Now it so happens that the Koka Shastra allows anal sex.

The only issue I have is the fact that it's a Hindu text.

Koka Shastra is a granth based on the Kama Sutra. From my understanding, whereas the later is a treatise on the whole man/woman relationship in society the Koka Shastra has dispensed with the ethics and ideals and deals strictly with technical love-making and how both sexes can provide pleasure for each other.

All these books come under the heading of Kama Shastra, and include the Ananga Ranga and Ratirahasya as well.

Modern translations are available including western authored simplified versions that only deal with sex postions, kissing etc.

I Highly recommend people dispense with their shyness and inhibitions and read these books if only to enhance their relationships.

Happy Love-Making (whether by the front door back door!!!) LOL

Thank you so much for your kind help. The Koka Shastra is mentionned by Guru Gobind Singh in one of his bani. He says that God is manifest in the Ved and in the Koka Shastra. This maybe the reason why there are no explicit rules about sex in gurbani because they are already explained in that text. Are there any links to an online text ? I will flick through the Koka Shastra to see if it allows anal sex then.

Thank you so much

I found a reference about Kok shastar. Does anyone have info about what this is? thanks

Amardeep wrote:

standard way = a normal intercourse with penetration in vagina.

luxury- everything masala, oral anal as these are "unnormal" ways of having sex and the reason for doing this is nothing but pleasure.

What does Dasam Granth say about this

This is your opinion. Definition of normal and standard would depend on culture and tradition. If you are going to go for standards of normality then refer to those that existed in the Guru's time not your own.

The sakhi referring to anal sex in the Charitropakhian is that of the philandring king who used to commit adultery with other women. His wife wants to teach him a lesson and tells another man that the king abused his wife. She dresses that man as a woman and presents him-her to her husband the king. The king is seduced and as he is about to have sex with him-her, that man anally rapes the king to teach him a lesson.

This sakhi does not concern us here because it is a homosexual act not a heterosexual act. We were discussing the heterosexual form of anal sex not the homosexual one, even though it would be interesting to later on explore what gurbani says about homosexuality. Singh Sahib Joginder Vedanti condemned homosexuality but I don't remember him giving the scriptural reason for it. We can keep this for later. Also that sakhi is literature and the narrator does not give a moral judgement whether that practise is allowed in Sikhi or not.

I am still reading Dasam bani for the issue of anal sex. I do think I am about to find a reference.

What is this?

It does not say that sex is forbidden, but it tells you not to give into it. This gives you something to think about and work on . If i am a married man and i have sex with my wife, and i suddenly want to go a few steps further, then it becomes masala , it becomes add-ons and hereby its a luxury good. Anal sex is a luxury good as it is not the standard way of having sex, and the only reason for doing it must be for pleasure. Gurbani tells us not to give into pleasure,- and by doing anal sex you have given in as you were not satisfied with the standard way of having sex

- define standard way of having sex

- define luxury

This is just your subjective vision of sexuality. I am asking gurbani's opinion.

Anyways I am reading Dasam Granth and I think I am close to find an explanation.

Matheen I didn't start the topic. all I see is people giving THEIR opinion rather than giving explanations from gurbani.

Gurbani and rehitnames talk about controlling your sexual urge and not giving into it in an extreme manner, so seen in the context of anal sex being a sexual luxury pleasure one could argue that it is not allowed. Some rehitnames only allow sex once a day because one should be able to control the sexual desires, instead of letting them control your behavior.

Gurbani does indeed talk about controling kaam but this is an ethical injonction not a law. How does this get translated into law.

"Not giving into it in an extreée manner". Define extreme. Extreme could be anything depending on time, space and location, it is a matter of personal opinion and taste and is not objective and God given.

Hence your argument of defining anal sex as a "luxury" falls. Anal sex is not a luxury it is one sexual practise among many others. It is up to the Guru to define if it is allowed or not.

Some rehitnames only allow sex once a day because one should be able to control the sexual desires, instead of letting them control your behavior.

Sex once a day could is too general as it doesn't define the sexual practises.

"i dont know much about jewish and hindu law, but i know that anal sex is a controversial topic among islamic scholars, and some allow it whereas others forbid it... Seen in this case, the law is not divine as it contradicts itself since the scholars argue on this topic each having their own arguments for allowing/banning it"

I don't know about Jewish and Islamic law too much. But still I don't see how scholars contradicting each other make a religious law not divine. Look at the meat issue in Sikhi so many Panthik vidvaans say different things does that mean gurbani is false? I think that we should be very careful to make a difference between scripture and interpretation of scripture.

I have done some personal research and Guru Granth Sahib doesn't talk about anal sex. Maybe the writing of Guru Gobind Singh would have something about it. Anyone got any advise?

Mekhanech Jannat wrote:

Where do you wish to get guidance from? How are you guided to the correct source of guidance? How do you know you are making mistakes if you do not follow currently any guidance?

The answer to the last question is obviously an intrinsic morality inherent in humankind. It is this, the Guru's wished to blossom in men. This intrinsic morality is individual. This is why the miri and piri are essentially one or they are unified, mystical knowledge is the seed of socio-political rule. The light of mystical knowledge, ignites the fire of intrinsic morality. What I am saying to clarify for you is : a community based around a teaching of the source of all teaching, is sustained morally by a core of divine effulgence, which radiates outwards, sparking inherent morality in men as individuals. Now I in no way criticize a legalistic religious system such as the Sharia. First of all I have no knowledge of it, and secondly I believe it spreads good in normal peoples life, very much good in fact. But each to their own, If, and I think you would, prefer to be told when to p1ss sh1t and eat, and what hand to hold your thothi in, then follow a religious legalistic law, and be happy my dear brother, do not become despondent because you cannot find a rule my brother do not concern yourself with altruism it is a disease. Nobody wants the truth, keep your truth in a box, and when you feel sad open your box, and titillate yourself, knowing that you know the truth, you know the truth my brother.

"Where do you wish to get guidance from? How are you guided to the correct source of guidance? How do you know you are making mistakes if you do not follow currently any guidance?"

- A Sikh receives guidance from his/her Guru. It is him that instructs him on all matters both spiritual and temporal, be through gurbani or his other writings

"The answer to the last question is obviously an intrinsic morality inherent in humankind. It is this, the Guru's wished to blossom in men. This intrinsic morality is individual. This is why the miri and piri are essentially one or they are unified, mystical knowledge is the seed of socio-political rule. The light of mystical knowledge, ignites the fire of intrinsic morality. "

- There is no instrinsic morality to humans. All great civilizations have received their moral codes from godly men who received them from God. Without that divine knowledge humans make up their own "morality" and as humans differ in culture, race and environmant that morality changes constantly and it is hence neither the same everywhere nor intrinsic.

- Mystical experiences can be of all kind and are individualistic and subjective in nature. Each person receives a different experience. A society is based on a COMMON LAW based NOT on subjective experience but in divine revelation. Your argument makes the Guru absolutely obsolete and unecessary.

"But each to their own, If, and I think you would, prefer to be told when to p1ss sh1t and eat, and what hand to hold your thothi in, then follow a religious legalistic law, and be happy my dear brother, do not become despondent because you cannot find a rule my brother do not concern yourself with altruism it is a disease."

- Mind your language! The language you use is extremely rude and undignified.

- Actually several rahitname do give clear instructions about personal hygiene. The Guru teaches ALL aspects of life. So yes you belong to a religion with a set of laws common to all Sikhs called rahit. Even Guru Gobind Singh obeyed this law when he paid a fine for showin reverence to the shrine of Dadu Sahib. If Guru Gobind Singh himself followed Sikh law who are you to think you don't need any?

- Altruism is a form of daya and daya is the mother of all virtues and is the basis of the Khalsa. You call it disease...strange

"Nobody wants the truth, keep your truth in a box, and when you feel sad open your box, and titillate yourself, knowing that you know the truth, you know the truth my brother."

- If you don't want the truth why follow the Guru Sahiban?

- I actually do want the Truth but if you are happy with lies...

"keep your truth in a box, and when you feel sad open your box, and titillate yourself, knowing that you know the truth, you know the truth "

Could you tell anything substantial that doesn't come from a Deepak Chopra book?

"you know the truth my brother"

- your brother? Excuse me!

Could anyone please post a passage from gurbani or the rahit concerning anal sex please or at least give me some direction on where I could that material? Thank you

Hi all

I just wanted to start a discussion on Khalsa Raj. I have heard some people talk about it like it's going to happen soon.

Does anyone have any info on that?

Also some people say Guru Gobind Singh will come back. I wanted to ask what Khalsa Raj will look like and how it will be brought about and also how it will be ruled. Thanks

Awww thanks Veerjee that's so nice of you. Bless you you made my day :) :) I love this shabad

It's plain to see.

Javanmard, even Much of Sharia came about long after the prophet's passing.

Excuse me Veerjee but who is Jawanmard? Also we were discussing Sikhi I don't what this shairia has got to do with the matter at hand.

Muslims, Jews, Christians and Hindus all have laws and so does Sikhi.

Matheen you say that anal sex "is clearly forbidden" but is this your opinion or do you have a tuk from gurbani or the rahit to prove your point? If it is "clearly forbidden" as you say that means you have had clear instructions about this matter from gurbani, could you kindly provide the passage so as to inform us. A Gursikh takes his instruction from gubani and gurbani is the reference in both spiritual and temporal matters.Thank you.

Hi

I am looking for a shabad played in traditional tanti saaj "Rakh pita prabh mere"

If you have it please let me know

You and me seem to be viewing the subject matter, from two irreconcilable standpoints. Sikhi is a mystical path, the thought constructs you are imposing on Sikhi are not compatible. If a Sikh has not a certain level of morality he cannot access the Guru. To be able to read bani a certain amount of purity and inherent sensibilty of certain immutable laws, has to be present. Men may call themselves Sikhs, but a Sikh is only an individual who has a connection with his Guru.

I have tried to explain that Gurbani does explain the rules about married life. But these rules are not in an exoteric or manifest form. They are unmanifest in an archetypal form. The Guru provides a means to access these divine truths. I am not saying everyone can have access to these truths, similiarly not all will follow marriage rulings or certain rules may have been imbued with a persons own intellect instead of from the divine intellect. Gurbani cuts out the middle man and goes direct to Akaal.

You say: "Sikhi is a mystical path, the thought constructs you are imposing on Sikhi are not compatible. "

Sorry Sikhi isn't just a mystical path. It is the union of miri and piri. It has a mystical and socio-political aspect. If Sikhi was just a mystical path then Tyag Mal would have remained Tyag Mal instead of becoming Guru Tegh Bahadur.

Then you say "If a Sikh has not a certain level of morality he cannot access the Guru. " Who defines that morality? You by accessing some hidden knowledge? or is it defined by the Guru?

"To be able to read bani a certain amount of purity and inherent sensibilty of certain immutable laws, has to be present."

I thought to read gurbani you had to learn the gurmukhi language first to get access to teachings and then work on your inner purity.

"But these rules are not in an exoteric or manifest form. They are unmanifest in an archetypal form"

So the Gurus came into Kaljug and that knowledge remained hidden? The Gurus came into this kaljug to enlighten the world like the sun so that divine knowledge should be manifest.

If basic rules about married life are hidden somewhere then where is the guidance? Are married couples supposed to meditate about wether or not they should have anal sex?

"I am not saying everyone can have access to these truths"

So the Gurus died as martyrs so that a lucky fey can have mystical access to the secret laws of anal sex?

"Gurbani cuts out the middle man and goes direct to Akaal"

If you can acess Akal directly what need is there for a Guru?What need is there for the shahidi of Guru Tegh Bahadur?

I am sorry but I am just one of those people who admit that they make mistakes and need guidance for everyday matters to be sure I am on the right path so that I can use the rest of my time meditating on God rather than "accessing the esoteric laws of anal sex"

Where can I get that book? Sounds like an interesting read.

Not at all.

Can't speak for Mekhane ch'Janat but this is what I know:

As you wrote earlier, Maharaj Ji says "Hukam Rajai Chalna". You are 100% right that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is "Pargat Gura Ki Deh". If you go with faith and take a Hukamnama, you will get the answer to any question you can think of.

Only if you have faith.

Faith can mean many things. Faith can lead people to move mountains or it an move them to crash planes into buildings. Faith is one thing, but it has to be balanced with guidance derived from knowledge itself derived from God. Faith is like fuel. A car with fuel can go anywhere but it needs guidelines and directions. Same thing with Sikhi. Having shardha is great but you need direction from gubani as well. Sikhi puts a lot of emphasis on married life. It is only normal that, like any other religion, Sikhi should have its rules about married life. The problem is these things don't get discussed because of a certain shame. But people need to know. How am I supposed to lead a proper married life if I don't know the guidelines. The initial question makes sense because it highlights the need know the passages in gurbani and the rahit that talk about it.

All this "make up your own Sikhi", I don't know...i just don't buy it otherwise any dehdhari guru is justified into saying that " oh I am a mystic I can make my own laws". I am just very sceptical...

FOr individuals who do not know whether they should have anal sex or not there is no rule saying this correct or incorrect. In Sikhi each individual must make his or her decision based on their degree of self knowledge. Self knowledge is obtained from the teachings of the Guru, we have faith the Guru will grace us with self knowledge, so we can sense the correctness of our actions. Whereas religious systems are liable to corruption and misinterpretation, the Sikh system, reveals correct ways of living through an individuals mystical relationship with the Guru.

Sorry I don't get it. So according to you:

Individuals make up decisions based on self knowledge.

Self knowledge is obtained from the Guru.

Well if knowledge is obtained from the Guru it isn't self knowledge at all as it comes not from oneself but from the Guru.

So we go back to the Guru being the source of guidance through gurbani. Not everyone is a mystic. The busy mother or the man who works hard in the field has no time for deep meditation and they need guidance too for matters that may seem trivial to a "mystic".

for the eternal dharma to become manifest, it can only manifest through an individual. This is the manifestation of the eternal dharma, if this man so wishes he can codify these truths, he has sensed, into laws for others to follow. This is what I believe a prophet is, a bringer of dharma. If you have read Henry Corbin you will know that each mystic undergoes the ascension, the mi'raj of the Prophet Muhammed, and becomes the seal of prophecy himself. This is what I mean by Gurbani creating prophets, it creates mystics who in islamic terms, become the seal of the prophecy.

So a prophet is a mystic and a mystic is a prophet? What does seal of prophecy mean?

If I understand correctly any mystic is his own prophet and creates his own law? Sort of "thou shalt do as thou wilst"?

You seem to be confusing external dharma which is appropriate for time and place with the eternal dharma of which Sikhi is an expression. The eternal dharma does not vary with time or place it is always the same. Sikhi teaches the archetype or the primal idea of dharma, which contains all manifest dharma - like the shariat. Sikhi is the source of all rules and is the source of shariat.

It may be unintentional on your part, but the attitude you have towards the Akash Bani of the Guru's is deregatory. Gurbani is not a rulebook, it teaches men to become writers of rulebooks. Bani creates prophets

I never intended to touch upon metaphysical matters as they are separate from the question at hand. Your point about eternal dharma may be true but as you said that eternal dharma is the source of an external dharma manifest in Sikhi, so that external aspect also exists and has to be taken into account. My question is: gurbani being the source of guidance in spiritual and temporal matters (miri and piri) and given the fact that Guru Granth Sahib is pragat guran ki deh what is gurbani's take on the issue we discussed previously?

As for your statement "bani creates prophets", I fail to understand it. Do you mean that a person who meditates on bani becomes a prophet? What do you mean by prophet?

but yes, symbolically, you can see this as an attack on the panth. Symbolically. BUT like always, NOTHING will happen.. why, because we have been brahminised heavily (our insititions anyway)

I don't understand the link between being brahminized and destroying heritage. I don't seen Brahmins destroying their heritage so how does this have anything to do with Brahmins?

I am confused. Other religions have clear rules about these things. How is one to follow hukam rajai chalna then? The hukam can't come from our guesses, from our own man (made) mat, it has to come from the guru. Can someome bring the quotes about such matters from gurbani?

So far you all just posted personal opinions but Sikhi being a complete way of life surely has some rule about it somewhere be it in gurbani or the rahitname. All other major religions have such rules (Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus). I am sure Sikhi has a rule about it too as it is a complete way of life.