Pheena

Yes they were beheaded, their ego was beheaded, not their physical heads. It is a metaphorical statment. As bhavneetkaur ji stated there was no need to perform this miracle of literally cutting off the head. I surrender my head to the guru, i surrender my ego to the guru, my head becomes gurus. it belongs to him once the surrender happens. Your Head is your Ego. They are interchangable.

Fear of Death is natural to those who think of themselves as the body. When one is attached to the body, he is attached to the world and all the things associated witht he world and you are correct the fear is there because of that attachment. Death is not the end, just an end to a chapter in a book.

Once you have realized and known the fact that you are the soul not the body. Fear simply dissappears as if it was never there to begin with. Realizing the truth is the key to eliminating this fear. Contemplating on this fear forces you to find the truth. If the purpose is to simply die then what purpose is to live? Death can become your meditation. Infact there are meditation which can give you the experience of death while alive. You see yourself dying slipping away and only then do you realize where you have tied your attachments to.

You being alive at the moment you read this post are not aware of death, being aware of death, contemplating on the end can take you beyond.

Saints and Gurus used to tell their disciples to meditate in a Grave yard. Why to seek the truth ofyourself. To watch the body burn and to see how fragile it is, to see and experience yourself. Meditating in a grave yard was/is still used today by some seekers. You become dead while alive...you lose this attachment with the body and once that is lost so is the fear of death. For death can never touche you. Its reach is only to the limits of the body, never to the soul. You will be alive tomorrow and you will be alive after you die, What is born shall die. God was not born. Existance simply exists. The universe was born, so one day it too will die as will this earth it is inevitable. Know the Truth about yourself, your true self for the fear one has are all illusions created by not-knowing.

Wow that is amazing to find someone from teh same sangat, Yea they held it every may, but they moved it to Feb for this year. I was gona go this year but we had already scheudled my bro's wedding in feb in india on the same weekend of the sangat...coincedence?? loll

Definelty PM me sis, i will try my best to make it there. if you have msn you can catch me at gurinderjit82@hotmail.com

Waheguru waheguru

A question i have is that why is 40 minutes of the movie only focuses on the Crucifiction of Jesus??

I have a question, when Jesus was Crucified, what feelings did u have, Anger, Guilt, Fear, Love, Compassion?

btw i haven't seen the movie so i can't comment on it fully.

nah man

hwo can U say that ur inward filth is removed by Shwoeing in a Sarowar of Jal

its the Sarovar of NAAM

Amrit is a COMPLETLY different thing!

I am not saying that i will be liberated by bathing in the sarovar, but i will surely be affected, and i have been.

As for the paaps, it is not as in Catholics you have to repent your sins to the priests. So you can sin and go bathe in the Sarovar to remove them. It is obviously not that simple.

All i am saying is that Bathing in the Sarovar has effects on your body and your inner-self.

One afternoon during my early months at the ashram, found Sri Yukteswar's eyes fixed on me piercingly.

"You are too thin, Mukunda."

His remark struck a sensitive point. That my sunken eyes and emaciated appearance were far from my liking was testified to by rows of tonics in my room at Calcutta. Nothing availed; chronic dyspepsia had pursued me since childhood. My despair reached an occasional zenith when I asked myself if it were worth-while to carry on this life with a body so unsound.

"Medicines have limitations; the creative life-force has none. Believe that: you shall be well and strong."

Sri Yukteswar's words aroused a conviction of personally-applicable truth which no other healer—and I had tried many!—had been able to summon within me.

Day by day, behold! I waxed. Two weeks after Master's hidden blessing, I had accumulated the invigorating weight which eluded me in the past. My persistent stomach ailments vanished with a lifelong permanency. On later occasions I witnessed my guru's instantaneous divine healings of persons suffering from ominous disease—tuberculosis, diabetes, epilepsy, or paralysis. Not one could have been more grateful for his cure than I was at sudden freedom from my cadaverous aspect.

"Years ago, I too was anxious to put on weight," Sri Yukteswar told me. "During convalescence after a severe illness, I visited Lahiri Mahasaya in Benares.

"'Sir, I have been very sick and lost many pounds.'

"'I see, Yukteswar,9 you made yourself unwell, and now you think you are thin.'

"This reply was far from the one I had expected; my guru, however, added encouragingly:

"'Let me see; I am sure you ought to feel better tomorrow.'

"Taking his words as a gesture of secret healing toward my receptive mind, I was not surprised the next morning at a welcome accession of strength. I sought out my master and exclaimed exultingly, 'Sir, I feel much better today.'

"'Indeed! Today you invigorate yourself.'

"'No, master!' I protested. 'It was you who helped me; this is the first time in weeks that I have had any energy.'

"'O yes! Your malady has been quite serious. Your body is frail yet; who can say how it will be tomorrow?'

"The thought of possible return of my weakness brought me a shudder of cold fear. The following morning I could hardly drag myself to Lahiri Mahasaya's home.

"'Sir, I am ailing again.'

"My guru's glance was quizzical. 'So! Once more you indispose yourself.'

"'Gurudeva, I realize now that day by day you have been ridiculing me.' My patience was exhausted. 'I don't understand why you disbelieve my truthful reports.'

"'Really, it has been your thoughts that have made you feel alternately weak and strong.' My master looked at me affectionately. 'You have seen how your health has exactly followed your expectations. Thought is a force, even as electricity or gravitation. The human mind is a spark of the almighty consciousness of God. I could show you that whatever your powerful mind believes very intensely would instantly come to pass.'

Soruce: Autobiogaphy of a Yogi

Sri Yukteswar never avoided or blamed women as objects of seduction. Men, he said, were also a temptation to women. I once inquired of my guru why a great ancient saint had called women "the door to hell."

"A girl must have proved very troublesome to his peace of mind in his early life," my guru answered causticly. "Otherwise he would have denounced, not woman, but some imperfection in his own self-control."

If a visitor dared to relate a suggestive story in the hermitage, Master would maintain an unresponsive silence. "Do not allow yourself to be thrashed by the provoking whip of a beautiful face," he told the disciples. "How can sense slaves enjoy the world? Its subtle flavors escape them while they grovel in primal mud. All nice discriminations are lost to the man of elemental lusts."

Source: Autobiogaphy of a Yogi

"The darkness of maya is silently approaching. Let us hie homeward within."

"The body is a treacherous friend. Give it its due; no more," he said. "Pain and pleasure are transitory; endure all dualities with calmness, while trying at the same time to remove their hold. Imagination is the door through which disease as well as healing enters. Disbelieve in the reality of sickness even when you are ill; an unrecognized visitor will flee!"

"Good manners without sincerity are like a beautiful dead lady," he remarked on suitable occasion. "Straightforwardness without civility is like a surgeon's knife, effective but unpleasant. Candor with courtesy is helpful and admirable."

"In sleep, you do not know whether you are a man or a woman," he said. "Just as a man, impersonating a woman, does not become one, so the soul, impersonating both man and woman, has no sex. The soul is the pure, changeless image of God."

Source: Autobiogaphy of a Yogi

Polygamy maybe practised in an area where there is low male population.Or because a man may want more than one wife to have many children.It may well be a cultural tradition for a particular culture.

:arrow: Leela."Khel khel, akhel kelan, ant ko phir ek" - Jaap Sahib

One who is free from the hooks of Maya, can play in Maya how ever they (Vahiguru) wishes.

Why do people want to not believe in historical facts about the Satguru??

Whats up with you people?You are like those God-damned "Christians" and "Muslims," wanting to ignore things which may seem out of the ordinary in this modern day.

Then that answers the question, regardless if guru sahib had 3 or 7 wives, it was all leela of khuda. Who is one to question...the question arise from those who dont' have faith in the guru being the light of parmatma. They think how can a man of god have more than one wife, was he full of kaam to want more than one wife. Now their mind has been trying to find loop holes to fullfill its own desires thru having more than one wife.

It is his Leela, he plays it how he sees fit.

If the slightest spark of Love n devotion exists within you, then that naam simran will bear fruit regardless of your status in Soceity or Religion. It is your love, faith and devotion that is the deciding factor in your bhagti being fruitfull.

I've been to Dallas few times for Satsangat. Don't know if know it is held there from the Dodray Sangat from North Americas.

Change occurs on the inside, the outside action becomes an excuse.

Water has significance to spirituality whether one believes it or not. Water becomes Amrit when it is placed next to the guru, because of the sensativity that water has to attracting vibrations. When there is a huge sarovar placed next to the guru and bani is recited 24 hours a day, in what state do u think that water is in.

Gurudwaras were built on the places where guru ji stayed, any place where any guru had rested or lived became a gurudwara because the area where guru had stayed gets charged with vibrations.

Why is said many times to bathe in the dust of saints. Dust?? That seems like ritual to me. The difference between the dust in ur house and the dust of the saint is because the saint is transforming the dust with his vibrations. The dirt on Sangat's feets who come from far away come to the sarovar to bathe. I would rather bathe in that 'dirty' than bathing in the clean water in my shower.

Vibrations are only tranfereed if you are able to obsorb them. One could live in that water and not change. If one is not sensative to the vibrations then how can one feel them, to let them in to change him. It is your suceptability <spell> that transforms you.

I posted this in another thread and I am compelled to post it here as well as the message can serve this discussion here as well. Below are assertions of some of the writers here who claim it is ok in Sikhism to pray to a stone quoting Bhai Gurdas and Bhagat Dhanna.

Sahajleen Kaur Khalsa wrote

Pheena wrote

Baba Manochal wrote

Here is proof that Sikhism is totally against idol worship. This is straight from the Gurus, not from some Bhai,Sant or Baba. Those who advocate idol worship within Sikhism stating what some Bhai,Baba or Sant said I humbly believe have strayed from Gurus command and should not call themselves Sikhs anymore. What I can't understand is how some can quote some Baba,Bhai or Sant put choose to ignore the very crux of Gurus teachings. There were some who were in fact pretty emotional when I criticised this line of thinking. Well, below is what Guru Ji the only and final authority in Sikhism stated. Are you all questioning Guru Ji's teachings?

This is also proof that Shashtras and Vedas were looked down upon which is why they were never included in the SGGS.

Bro if out of those quote you believe that all of us are asserting the notion that it is ok for 'sikhs' to pray to idols, then you completly missed my points. Because i gave an example of Bhagat Dhanna's experience does not mean i am saying go pray to a stone. You have missed the point. If you are innocent as Bhagat Dhanna ji, then surely he will find you in whatever image you perceive him as. Innocence of a Child is what Bhagat Dhanna had in him. You are stuck on the Stone part, if he had prayed to a flower, he would've appeared before him, it was not the object you pray to, it is how you pray. In what state is your mind in when you pray. The object simply is an Aid...i can't seem to say it enough. Im trying to explain to you the purpose of an Idol worshipping, but you seem to take it as im trying to preach that it is ok. I never said it is ok for Sikhs to pray to Idols. Sikhs have been given a different path. There are infinite methods to your inner tranquility.

Waheguru.

waheguru ji, i live near Austin Tx. about an hour to the east. Wehre might u live??

aaaaaaaw

Same Quote comes up all the time!

its not the BATH in the LITTERAL SAROWAR!

it means RAMDAAS's SAROWAR OF NAAAAM!

Its more hindu-mat that sins will be removed by bathing in holy rivers!

Sikhi teaches us to bath in Ram Da's Sarovar of NAAM!

I think above Shabad Is composed By Guru Arjan Dev jee

bhull chukk maaf

GurFAteh

If bathing in the Sarovar cannot help you, then what aid does drinking Amrit when taking Amrit do?? Isn't it just water with sugar in it?? what difference is it then?? One could easily state that whenever Amrit is mentioned in the SGGS it is telling you to drink the Amrit of Naam on the inside??!!??

I've been living in texas for about 6-7 years, and yesterday i was taking a drive with my friend to a nearby town thru the country, and i realized for the first time what i had been missing out. The area i live in with little hills all covered with grass and few trees here and there. Yesterday I realized that i have been missing out on the beauty that is born every day and it is never the same. I see blue-bonnet flowers sprouting everywhere and see the beauty of the infinite sprouting everywhere. Every day he bring new beauty in my life and i have been blind to it until yesterday and i awoke this morning to drive to work...and the whole morning was brighter and illuminance of beauty. The green of the trees was unusually brighter and a shade of dark and light green. The silence of the beauty can only be heard with eyes. Beauty arose without care, wihtout worry, simply without care it showered everyone. I see a dry tree and the beauty exist in death as well. It is impossible to miss what is available everyday without giving something in return. In our lives almost anything we want we have to pay for it, but beauty exists without a price and it is for free and it never asks for anything in return. Everyday it is born, in every moment it survives. Everyday. Everyday it is born with more intensity; a shabad came into rememberence...waheguru...

Sahib May-ra Nit Navaan, Suth-a Suth-a Dataar.

Waheguru.

I was watching the Shabad Gurban on Z tv this morning, and they had done Kar Seva on the Sarova, where they removed all of the water. One of our relatives went there and they saw people literally taking the mud and dirt in their chunnis and pugs to their homes. They had ran out of buckets to remove the mud, so they used their pugs to remove the mud.

FYI. I also heard that Mr. Tohra who died of a heart-attack died doing seva of the Sarovar.

Thank you Pheena for giving us the full passage. Indeed very interesting. The fact that Osho quotes Teilhard de Chardin changes everything. Your earlier post made me think that Osho meant something elese. Now I see that Osho's statement was not just hanging in the air. Teilhard de Chardin is indeed a great Jesuits Catholic thinker and his thought system is very similar to that of Shri Aurobindo. Yet there is a problem in terms of Christology regarding Jesus' "eli eli lamai sabaktani". Jesus was the Christ already. A better way of formulating this is that his "Christness" became manifest when he said "Thy will be done". To say that Jesus was just Jesus before that does not make sense in the whole context of Christology. Jesus does not become Christ on the cross: he manifests his "Christness" fully and explicitly.

In my view when osho said jesus became christ, he meant it in a way taht last string of ego that he hed held on to, he let go. Jesus was a name which was associated with a very thin ego almost non-existant. He responded with that name, but no longer is he attached to that name..he was transformed. As it is necessary, if he had no ego completly he would cease to exist...that much ego is necessary to be born into the world to save it. That small strand of ego was broken at that point. It is not the same ego in man, but a purified version where it is already ready to break. That was broken when Jesus became christ.

oh ok that makes sense....i guess i should put sources on 'em.

veerji, im copying and pasting this from a book of Parmahanse Yoganada, The Autobiography of a Yogi. Plus other stuff i find on the net.

The guru ji in the last few quotes is a hindu guroo, but as i remember you said in our convo yesterday, "No Saint/Murshad is part of any religion"

This is what Osho said about Jesus's situation at the cross:

Jesus is transformed through his sacrifice. Nobody is ever transformed without sacrifice. You have to pay for it: the cross is the price that you have to pay for it. You have to die to be reborn. You have to lose all to gain God.

That phenomenon happened on the cross. He hesitated for a time, he was very much puzzled--it was natural. For a single moment he could not see god anywhere. All was lost, he was losing all; he was going to die and there seemed to be no possibility...That happens to every seed. When you put the seed into the earth, one moment comes when the seed is losing itself, and there must be hesitation--the same hesitation that happened to Jesus on the cross. the seed is dying, and the seed must cling to the past. It wants to survive--nobody wants to die. And the seed cannot imagine that this is not death, that soon it will be resurrected in a thousandfold way, that soon it will start growing as a sprout.

The death of the seed will be the birth of the tree, and there will be great foliage and flowering and fruits, and birds will come and sit on the branches and make their nests, and people will sit under the shade of the tree; and the tree will talk to the clouds and the stars in the night, and will play with the sky, and will dance in the winds; and there will be great rejoicing. But how can this be known to the poor seed which has never been anything else? It is inconceivable. That's why God is Inconceivable.

It cannot be proved to the seed that this is going to happen, because if the seed asks 'Then let me see what you are going to do', you cannot make it available, you cannot make visible to the seed what is going to happen. it is going to happen in the future, and when it happens, the seed will be gone. The seed will never meet the tree. Man never meets God. When the man is gone, God descends.

Jesus hesitated, was worried, was bewildered. He shouted, almost shouted against the sky 'Why have you forsaken me? Why? Why this torture for me? What wrong have i done to you?' A thousand and one things must have crossed his mind.

The seed is dying, and the seed is completely oblivious to what is going to happen next. It is not possible for the seed to conceive of that next step, hence faith, hence trust is needed. The seed has to trust that the tree will be born. With all the hesitation, with all kinds of fear, insecurities, with all kinds of anguish, anxiety--inspite of all of them--the seed has to trust that the tree will happen, that the tree is going to happen. It is a leap into faith.

And that leap happened to Jesus: he relaxed on the cross and he said 'Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done...' His heart was palpitating. It is natural. You heart will also palpitate, you will also be afraid when that moment of death comes to you, when that moment comes when your self disappears and you are losing youself into the kind of nothingness, and there seems to be no way to survive, and you have to surrender.

You can surrender in two ways: You can surrender reluctantly, then you will miss the real point of it, then you will simply die and will be born again. If you can relax in deep acceptance, trust, if you can surrender without any resistance....That's what Jesus did; that is teh greatest miracle. To me that is the miracle--not that he gave health to somebody who was ill, or eyes to somebody who was blind, or cured the leprosy of somebody; or even helped Lazarus to revive, to come back to life-- and he had died. No, those are not real miracles to me they are all parables, metaphors. Every Master has given eyes to those who are blind, and ears to those who are deaf. Each Master has brought people out of their deaths that they call life, has called them out of their graves. Those are metaphors.

But the Real Miracle is when Jesus--in spite of all of his hesitations, worries, doubts, suspicions--relaxes, surrenders, and says 'Thy will be done,' that moment Jesus disappears, Christ is born.

Teilhard de Chardin call it Christogenesis: Jesus begetting Christ. Through it Christogenesis, man becomes that which he really is; he loses that which he is not and becomes that which he is: man become 'Christified'. Be 'Christified', never become a Christian. The Christian is one who follows the Christian dogma. 'Christified' means one who dies as a seed and becomes a tree. 'Christified' means that you drop the ego, you disappear as yourself and you start appearing on the plane in a kind of transfiguration: a resurrection.

'Christified' means you are no more alone: God is in you and you are in God.

This is the paradox of Christ-consciousness. Christ calls himself many times Son of man and many times Son of God. He is both: Son of man as far as the body is concerned, Son of man as far as mind is concerned; Son of God as far as spirit is concerned, Son of God as far as consciousness is concerned. Mind is the mechanism of consciousness, just as the body is the adobe of the spirit. Mind belongs to the body, consciousness belongs to spirit. Jesus is the paradox: on the one hand man, on the other hand God. And when God and man work together, then if miracles happen there is nothing to be surprised about. Miracles happen only when God and man function together in cooperation.

Leo Tolstoy has said: Christ is God and man working together, walking together, dancing together. St. Augustine says: Without God, man cannot; without man, God will not. Christ is the combined operation--the meeting of the finite with the infinite, time and eternity meeting and merging into each other.

An old garder was diggin his plot as the priest came along. 'George' said the priest 'it is wonderful what God and man working together can do.'

'Yes sir, but you should have seen this garden last year when he had it all to himself!'

Yes that is true. Man alone is impotent. God also cannot work alone. God alone is potent but has no instrument. Man alone is a hollow bamboo-nobody to create a song on it, nobody to fill it with music, harmony, melody. God alone has the capacity to create a melody but has no hollow bamboo to create a flute.

4. pheen says: Why marry more than once?

Well, why not marry more than once. Polygamy was never a problem in India and became only an issue when the Bristish came to India with their Victorian repressive values.

Mr. Lalleshvari, let me further explain my question.

What purpose does having more than one wife Serve to an individual who is still in the grips of Maya (ego) and to him who has broken any grips maya would have on him the ego-less??

Drinking, nor bathing in the water is gonna get rid of your sins or wuteva.

Veer ji, can you please explain the following quote. Ram Das Sarova is also known as the Sarova at the Harmandir Sahib and the last line which states it is a gift from the perfect Guru. Is it a ritual to bathe at the Sarovar at Harmandir Sahib?? or Can it be a Transforming experience given that you have gone there with complete Sincerity and the Purity of your mind and heart is filled with love???

Page 625

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

Bathing in the nectar tank of Ram Das,

raamdaas sarovar naatay.

all sins are erased.

sabh utray paap kamaatay.

One becomes immaculately pure, taking this cleansing bath.

nirmal ho-ay kar isnaanaa.

The Perfect Guru has bestowed this gift. ||1||

gur poorai keenay daanaa. ||1||

Waheguru

There are 2 ways to answer u question, a deeper way and the obvious answer so i'll answer both and you can decide which one you were looking for.

The Deeper Answer:

The heart and Mind. Don't go to any gurudwara with your mind infront of you. Go with your heart infront and your head on your palm. The mind says is the Sarovar Clean, the heart says let me wash myself in the Amrit filled Sarovar. So the mind in relation to the body must be thinking I am already clean and i don't want to get dirty, but are you clean on the inside? Bathing in the Sarovar does not only purifies your outerself, but if one goes with the right set of mind, it does clense your innerself. The heart wants to purify itself so it jumps right in before the mind bring in logic and starts to question the purity of the water and creates doubts rather than the purity of your innerself.

Water itself is VERY sensative with absorbing Vibrations of gurbani and the next most sensative is dirt. Many times in the SGGS talks about being the dirt under the feet of the saints or bathing in the dirt of the saints.

The Obvious answer:

As far as i know the Water does get changed every so-often. I don't know how polluted the water is with bacteria and personally it really doesn't matter to me.

Luck does not exits only Karma exists. It could be another way of saying one gets good karma by going to visit the Golden Temple i guess.

i hope i didn't offend you, if so i apologzie.

Waheguru

Does everyone act on the basis of waht religion teaches??? Jesus said, "love thy neighbour" Does everyone follow that rule and if someone doesn't then who is to blame the Religion itself or that individual? I blame that individual for not understanding, not Jesus. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Just as the actions of the parents have nothing to do with Sikhi.

There is a Vast difference between Culture and Religion. The parents inability to understand your love towards their daughter has been imbedded in their mind thru cultural influences not religious. There are those who are liberal in inter-race marriages and unfotunately the parents of your lover are not one.

In the eyes of the parents, there is no way you would be able to understand or fill up to the cultural expectation of their son-in-law. It is not to say they are attacking you personally, they are generalizing. They would feel the same way for any other race and perhaps even a hindu who is indian. So it is their ignorence if you choose to call it that is the issue, not religion.

As for loosing faith in love. Understand to lose faith in love would mean you have been betrayed in a sense that has cause you to lose faith. Betrayel came from expectation and the moment you start to expect something from love, it has become a trade. To expect is to place conditions. Love completly, totatly, without any expectation, without desire. Just love for the sake of Loving. Love is not wanting, its about giving, surendering where the joy exists in giving not receiving, when you give you give regardless without consideration. You were wanting something from 'Love' and it has not given it to you so you have lost faith. Your first mistake was to ask for soemthing from Love. It is not a trade and nor r u a merchant. If your faith in love was shattered, do not blame love for it.

People lose faith in God because god did not meet their expectation, or he didn't save the one they loved, so they have lost faith in him. Where your will is in place, so you yourself have placed yourself in the perdicament of losing faith. If you loved god unconditonally, there would be no question of losing faith because loving god itself is fullfillment, and whatever position he has placed you in out of his love. Where love exists, where 'Unconditional' love exists nothing can disturb it, never is faith shaken or lost for it is replaced with certainty and acceptance.

Forgive me if i have offended u.

Waheguru