Pheena

The important point of spiritual practice is not to try to escape your life,

but to face it -- exactly and completely.

~ Dainin Katagiri Roshi

we took a field trip to that gurudwara in 4th grade. 8)

The Vedanta philosophy discusses the nature of the soul from two standpoints:

1. Absolute or transcendental, and

2. Relative or phenomenal.

From the absolute standpoint, the soul is non-dual, immortal,

ever pure, ever free, ever illumined, and one with Brahman.

It is untouched by hunger or thirst, good and evil, pain and

pleasure, birth and death, and the other pairs of opposites.

That is the soul's true nature. The realisation of which is the

goal of a man's spiritual aspiration and striving. From this

absolute standpoint, the soul is called PARAMATMA or

Supreme Soul.

But from the relative standpoint, the Vedanta philosophy

admits the existence of a multitude of individual souls called

JIVATMAS, and distinguishes them from the Supreme Soul.

Attached to the body, the individual soul is a victim of the

pairs of the opposites. Entangled in the world, it seeks

deliverance from the eternal round of birth and death, and

with that end in view, studies the scriptures and practises

spiritual disciplines.

The embodied soul is associated with the sense organs, the

mind and vital breath (Prana). There are ten sense organs,

all subordinate to the mind as the central organ; five organs

of perception and five organs of action. The five organs of

perception comprise the organ of taste (tongue),smell (nose),

vision (eyes), hearing (ear), and touch (skin). The five organs

of action are the hands, the feet, the organ of speech, the

organs of evacuation and the organ of generation.

The four functions of the mind

The mind is the inner organ and consists of such functions

as desire, deliberation, doubt, faith, want of faith, patience,

impatience, shame, intelligence and fear.

The impressions carried by the organs of perception are

shaped by the mind into ideas, for we see only with the mind,

hear with the mind. Further, the mind changes the ideas into

resolutions of the will.

There are four functions or divisions or parts of the mind.

1. One part of the mind called MANAS, creates doubt.

2. The BUDDHI (intellect) makes decisions

3. CHITTA is the storehouse of memory

4. AHAM (the ego), creates I-consciousness.

The five organs of action, the five organs of perception, the

five pranas, the mind, and the intellect constitute the gross

and the subtle body of the embodied soul (jiva). The subtle

accompanies the individual soul after death, when the gross

body is destroyed. The subtle body is the abode of the

KARMA or impressions left by action, determining the nature

of the new body and mind when the soul is reborn. As the jiva

(the embodied soul) does and act, so it becomes.

The presence of an irrefragable Self or consciousness is

assumed in all acts of thinking. The Self or consciousness,

which is the true 'seer' or subject, is unchanging intelligence,

and can never be imagined to be non-existent. Atman

(the Self) in man and Brahman in the universe are

completely identical.

The idea of body, senses, and the mind, associated with

the non-self, is falsely superimposed upon the Self, and the

Self, which is of the nature of pure consciousness, appears

as a jiva, or phenomenal being, subject to the various

limitations of the physical world.

Feet, Hands, Tounge(speech), can't think of the other 2.

edit: found 'em. Anus and our Sexual organ.

Enlightenment is not about becoming something or someone else. It is the recognition of our intrinsic human nature, which is absolute truth. This absolute true nature is called "Buddha nature." The term Buddha, from the Sanskrit tatha, or tathagata, means "gone beyond," going beyond an ignorant state to become completely inseparable from absolute truth, which is our genuine ground. This is the essence of Buddhism and the main focus of our understanding and practice.

~ Mindroling Khandro Rinpoche

those were deep thoughts forward.. 8)

Unify your attention. Do not listen with your ears but with your mind; do not listen with your mind but with your essence. The ears can't do more than to listen, the mind cannot do more than to recognize. As for the essence, it is a void completely unengaged. The Way gathers only in the void.

~ Confucius

First Mehl:

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.

They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.

The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.

O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

Water says, ""I am good in many ways."" But water takes many forms.

Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

holy moly, i heard about this as well....good thing to bring up neo....btw Kam1825...do post picture of it if you can Please . I would love to read it.

What is it like sach kand? i heard there are big gates out side?

I deleted my earlier post cuz I thought felt it might have pushed you away from expressing your honest questions in the future. However silly they might seem to me or others. So instead i will take a different shot as you question.

The definition of Sach Khand states: "Sach Khand Vassay Nirankaar"

Given that definition "Sachkhand is where the Formless resides" We then conjour up theories created by our Mind. How big might be the hosue, or where it might be located in the coulds? Moon? or Gates as you have heard. To think of such thoughts we only limit ourselves to think that there is an actual house where he resides and create a predetermined state of the formless's abode. If he truely does exist in that Sach Khand then he does not exist here as that is his residence. If he exists there then he is not everprevading. Rather confined or limited to a estate confined by walls and a Gate. Think of these as a metaphorical example of his adobe. Gates do not mean literally a Gate. Think of itl ike this. when it is said Sikhi is a Path...are you truely walking on a Path physically or is it more internal journey which is symbolized by the word Path. As you would walk from your house to work. Gates are not in physical sense a GATE made of gold or wood rather it is mystical gate of his abode within your heart where he resides.

Just my view veer....hope that helps.

If getting rid of the 5 evils was that easy most of us would be saints. I would say that taking amrit is the first step for you. Evil knows you have recognised it and now it has stepped up the fight one notch. But you also have realization on your side and you have the tools your Gurus provided to you to conquer these 5 evils... use the tools.

Use the 5 Ks to fight the 5 evils. Look to your kara and feel it on your wrist and remember your commitment to your Guru with every action done by you. Let your kesh and kara remind you of your submission to God's will. Let your kara remind you that you are the slave of your Lord. This should keep a check on honkaar. Let your kachera remind you to keep kaam in check.

Keep the company of good people who encourage and support you in your faith and spiritual journey. Sikhism is a brotherhood also so use the help of your brothers when you are feeling spiritually weak.

Try and remember God with each action and thought. Say the name of God in your mind before you say or do something and you will find it will control what you do and say and even what you think.

When all this is done with pure intentions then God willing it will help you overcome the 5 evils.

you my Friend are just Amazing. I've heard the same advice given before but hearing it from someone with your likeness just makes me realize that Truth sees no boundries. A Commonality which had failed to develop within us as brothers is showing a sign of hope. Amen to you brother.

Can someone provide evidence in the form of a quote on this? If it isnt in the Guru Granth Sahib then where is it? If it is not in the Guru Granth Sahib then is the source text of this ruling debateable and doubtful?

The Guru Granth Sahib does not mention any specific rules of marriage (ie: Amrithdhari's marrying only Amritdharis). As far as i can see any mention of marriage in the Guru Granth Sahib speaks only of the Marriage of the Soul Bride with her God Husband. One can redirect the aim of the real message towards worldly acts. Such as the Lavaan are used to marry 2 individuals when their true intent was to describe the union of God and a Soul. I think the source for Xylitol's point lies in Various Rehits or Verbally given Hukams.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant.

We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

~ Albert Einstein

I understand what you are saying, sohneyo, but we cannot confuse different planes. We are discussing in this thread hindu and sikh religion, if we start saying "O it doesn't matter everything is waheguru" then there is no point in discssing anything.

If only it was that simple to do than just say. Perhaps it should be and perhaps there is no need to discuss anything given that we can grasp that one simple truth that he is everything. Only then there would be nothing left to discuss and we can all go home for aloo they paronthay with lasiee :yum:

Let me give you an example that i read somewhere once, to clarify what i mean. If everything is one, if everyone is Brahman or underlying divinity or whatever. Then there is no difference between mother sister or wife but in everyday life there is a difference

Look at God from being a Human without a Lable from any Sect/Religion/Ethinicty..etc and tell me if you cannot see Jesus, Muhammed, Guru Nanak, Buddha, Krishan as all his forms. When we confine ourselves to a religion/sect/ethinicty then everything else becomes the other and what our personal religion/sect/ethnicty belives in becomes ours.

if you are a sikh you see "god" from the specific cultural viewpoint of a sikh, if you are a muslim or christian you see god in a different way to a Sikh. I am sorry but all this new age drivel of the "sameness" of all religions is quite wrong. Religions/cultures are different we should respect diversity within religions, not try to make them all the same, in my view that is a deep insult to religious traditions.

Veer ji, By no means am i trying to belittle the importance of diversity of religions and their perceptions of God. But what i am saying is that behind these diversities is the same source, the same stream of divinity. When we confine ourselves to a Religion then the stream that is defined by Sikhi becomes our and the rest become theirs. As we own our and they own theirs. Such is not the case in the eye of the one who belongs to the one who belongs to the creator alone and sees the entire creation as His.

As in the quote the first words i said, from a human's prespective, not as someone who is a part of an 'ism'. Just be a part of existance without Lables, then every message is for you. Look at how many ways he is trying to get you to come to him, thru Krishna, thru Jesus, thru buddha he is calling for you.

"What about those who harvested the food were they Khalsa?"

This is a never-ending rabbit hole... we can keep digging, and digging forever...

Also...

My mom made me Pizza yesterday, but she cut her finger while cutting it into slices... she started cussing, but yet, the PIZZA didn't absord these harsh vibrations and was *excuse my french* off tha hizzle...

It is the Intent veer that is the source. How do you know it didn't? . Ofcourse i didn't say that in terms of it might kill you, but that whole point cannot be disregarded by just one example of a cuss word.

good points pheena.

bro you did a great right thing to refuse an jhooth and you stick to the maryada... you should explain her it's because of religious reasons which has do with health. hakum from panj pyares, i refused it.. . i have no other intention in my mind when i refused it.. sorry if i hurted you... i have no intention of doing that.

that is sound advice bro, straight and to the point.

isnt there like a difference between Hinduism and RSS?

according to the protestors aparently not!! It is typical to blame the entire religion for the actions of those who had nothing but hatred in their heart.

Look at God from being a Human without a Lable from any Sect/Religion/Ethinicty..etc and tell me if you cannot see Jesus, Muhammed, Guru Nanak, Buddha, Krishan as all his forms. When we confine ourselves to a religion/sect/ethinicty then everything else becomes the other and what our personal religion/sect/ethnicty belives in becomes ours.

The Truth about the Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva are not 'Hindu' nor are they in any way confined to the umbrellas of 'Hindus'. Yoga is not 'Hindu' these are the Truths under the umbrella of Existance/God. Because they were first realized by Rishi in the Indian subcontinent does not mean it belonged to them, just as the Electricity does not belong belong to the West or Christianity. It is a discovery for Humanity. Looking at this world and all that has been spoke about God and his Creation from an objective stand point. It all is Yours. This Knowledge, wisdom belongs to everyone, not one sect, religion or nation. It is Yours, it is Mine, it is theirs. but we are too confined to our boundries and dare not see the world as our own. A Saint is such that he gives up his family and his Lables and only then does he become related to the entire world/existance and every Lable becomes his own...every man, woman child becomes his and he sees them as a part of them.

"Maanas key Jaat subh Aiko Pachaan"

my apologies as i think i went off the tangent a little.

What do you suppose would have happened if you had taken a bite from her plate? It is obvious that she did it as a good gesture to offer you food from her plate. From the girls stand point it is an actually sign that she cares for you greatly and trust you enough to share her food with you. Your answer seemed very arrogant to her hence the offense.

I can only see 2 points, there might be mroe..

Theer are few sides, one side is the germs, bacteria from the others plate that you can induce. This is practical to some extent, that is if she slobered all over the food, i mean even if you are not amritdhari, you wouldn't want to eat that anyway. So to some extent one point to avoid jhooth is that the bacteria or others sickness (flu, cough..etc) can be digested. I have seen people who aren't amritdhari don't like to eat the food from another for their personal reasons or whatever.

The spiritual side has much more greater significanse in eating only that has been prepared by you and untouched by others. Food (solid or liquid) is a very good absorbant of vibrations that we project with our thoughts. Because we cannot know for certain the state of the everyones mind or thoughts we are told to avoid eating the food that others have touched because whether one is prone to such vibrations or not, it is definetly something which one needs to be aware of on their spiritual journey. The mind is very suceptable to vibrations, Our aura is like a huge web of absorbing sensors and antennas that pick up anything and everything that is present in the surrounding. Just as any Sincered Spiritual Person who is fully aware of this perception will avoid eating food that is made in Anger, Jelousy, Hatred that food might as well be poison to him/her. On the other hand food prepared with love can be necter. Also you should take notice that if one is a deep spiritual person and takes food as a gift from God then nothing can affect him. It is a level of our awareness taht will dictate what affects us and what does not. An individual can very much turn a poison into nector simply by his presence/prayer....just as darkness disapears the instant light enters the room.

So you might think that food you eat at home is ok just because no one touched it..well another point is raised, what about those who harvested the food were they Khalsa? What about the person who sold it or the person who took it to market, cleaned it with his hands?? Thru such thoughts this whole idea of Jhooth/Soocham becomes rather pointless. One thing i Love about Christians is the fact that they pray before eating as a norm. That prayer can turn any harmfull vibrations that my exist on the table into Positivity. My personal Opinion, if you had done a small prayer and you had eaten from her plate, that food would not have been jhooth. It would've become parsaad. If your eyes had seen the God within her and were able to see her hands as the hands of God and they offered you food from her share, you would've been blessed. It is what we see that matters.

but then again this is just my opinion and i am no expert on this matter.

You could've told her you were not hungry.

wow...now that was down right AWESOME....just watching i wanted to just go crazy.....

There is the dual nature of self: The incomplete self and the complete self... As humans, we are seeing from the perspective of the incomplete self. This incomplete self is undoubtedly very important. But if we attach to this incomplete self, although this incomplete self is important, then we'll never be able to experience the complete self. We Zen people say, if you believe in God, this complete self means the same thing as God. That is, it shares the same standpoint as God.

~ Joshu Sasaki Roshi

now that is an impressive argument, i'll have to come back to it as im quite busy with work and i'll be out this weekend. We will continue this discussion next week.

but i'll just add few things. You open the Guru Granth Sahib and you begin to read, WHY? Curiosity? Interest? Questions? The first words declare his Existance and it is enough for those who only needed a Spark to ignite the Flame. For those who did not even see the spark will read further and the sparks will continue to build. Personal opinion, i don't think you are asked to belive in God, rather you are asked to seek him. Questions are asked, fingers are pointed at our desires, our attachments, our False egos and if even then you do not question your existance then what more can words do for you. Your sincerity in Seeking goes much further than one may wish to consider. It is your Sincerity alone that will open you to the direct experiences of his existance. Seek with Sincerity and you are bound to find him. Buddha spent 6 years in search for the source. 6 hard, long years. Every Saint was once a common man trapped in ego, attachments. His journey alone is a sign that he is attainable, only if we are Sincere and Truthful in our search.

Experiences as you put it are directly related to believing or not believing in God. If you so want to know God, then SEEK him thru the infinite means he can be found. Words cannot give you experiences. Hence the Guru says to seek the one who has found him, seek the one who is lit, and from him/her you are bound to get that light seek the True Congression. Where one drop cannot make his way to the ocean but if that one drop joins with a thousand other drops and make river they are bound to find the ocean. Hence the importance and the necessity of a Guru, a Master, a Saint, an Enlightened being, Sangat. The one who has found him Seek that ONE. What you are asking is that you want me to use Words to tell you he exits. I will tell you right now that that is impossible. He cannot be proven by words, only by direct experiences. Thru words we can have forknowledge of his existance, but even then a skeptic will always be a skeptic. Until he/she has a direct experience of God. Now how does one attain this expeirence, some may experience this thru Nature, or thru a Guru. I repeat again Words cannot give you a direct experience that will prove to you that there is someone, something out there that never dies, never ending omnipresent divinity. They can point you in the direction of how to experience, but they themselves are not the experience. The majority of the seeker are pacing in this gap, They read about God and they think they have found him. Hardly , reading about Paris does not mean you have gone to paris. You have attain the knowledge of paris, its weather, its cultures, its origin, its history, geogprahy, but without being there you have no idea what paris is like. HE IS BEYOND Words and Thoughts. The Guru Granth Sahib is compiled in Words, in languages trying again and again to capture the divinity in it. If you read thru the japji sahib Guru Nanak himself said he is beyond words. Guru Nanak dev ji even said the Vedas have tried and failed to capture him. But a path is paved for you if you so choose to walk it.

We see other having Trust and Surrender in God, but we cannot conclude or assume that their faith is Blind Faith. This is a Journey we have been traveling for birth to birth gathering experiences, knowledge. A child not even 10 yet, goes to the Gurudwara wants to read the Guru Granth Sahib, pays full attention to the Shabads hearing them enjoying them. Is that blind faith or is it so that he past experiences have led him to this point to continue his journey from the point he left it in his past birth? We do not know what experiences he has had in his past.

Faith comes and goes as you said, but TRUST is the product of faith. Faith must be transformed into Trust. Trust is far more secure and stable than Faith, even tho both run parallel and even become synanamous to each other, Faith can only be secured with 100% Trust and Surrender. But to someone who is in doubt that this Santa Clause exists faith is hard to come by, to the one who lacks this Trust instead places his or her faith into direct experiences as you put it will lose his faith or gain it. Because one day he will get what he wants or desired from Santa then another day he will not. So when his desires are not met he looses faith because you begin to demand something from the creator and when he did not provide you with what you desired, this faith that you had is lost again. So you had no Trust in his doing that perhaps it is good for me that i did not get it. Perhaps he knows best. Your Trust only lasted until you got what you wanted. First error is made here. To Desire something and place all of your faith on the line.

Now the question is how can i Trust or Surrender to Something/Someone who i have not yet seen or met. Now that is a question worth asking.

Perhaps this quote will better suite your needs, :

Ramana Maharshi, one of the greatest saints and sages of modern India, master teacher of self-inquiry, once said:

"No one doubts that he exists, though he may doubt the existence of God. If you find out the truth about yourself and discover your own source, that is all that is required."

Know Thyself! Bulliah Key jana Mai Kohun.........

i don't think you are over analysing, nor do i think you are drifting away from simran. Whatever natural experiences we do experience during meditation are a result of what must happen in order for us to progress on this path and evolve spiritually. if it happens then let it happen. my advice is that pray for guidence before you being your jap. if the prayer is sincere you will begin to understand what exactly is happening. You shouldn't be scared of it either, it is natural experience, enjoy it with gratitude.