Pheena

http://www.chishti.ru/hazratmianmir.htm

I'm just a bit surprised that the link above makes no mention of their Relation with Guru Arjun Dev ji and them laying the foundation of Harmandir Sahib!

Link is dead.

Neo new linko?

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=9922

double topic

I'm going to move this to Formal Debates and Discussions forum.

First I think its important to not see Sex in a Negative light. The moment we create this negative association then soon you are repulsed by the thought of Sex and even Angry that such thoughts are entering your mind. Its just becomes a slippery slope after that and we being to repress the thought of sex. When this energy is repressed it becomes more aggressive.

The approach from what I understand is Giyaan and/or Dhyaan.

Whenever Kaam is awakening you can always feel (if you are aware of what is happening and not lost in Lust) a build up of energy in the lower region of the body. Knowing that energy is has no polarity, it is neutral but it is our mind and thoughts that direct this energy into being creative or destructive. Can we not redirect this energy consciously? By simply ignoring the thoughts of Sexuality and focusing on the energy that is being built up. Or are Thoughts and Sexuality directly correlated? Perhaps Controlled thoughts are need to awaken the energy?

thanks, i tried looking but i guess i didn't look hard enough.

Neo Peo Jeo ji,

I suggest you update the first post on this thread.

sooooo where are the kathas???

How can there be even be a doubt when there are countless references towards being in the Company of Saints, Saadhus, Gurmukhs in the Guru Granth Sahib??

Just because 9 out of 10 are False, some wish to crucify them all? These Pseudo-Saints have existed before the times of the Guru, during the times of the Guru and will continue to exist. Something very interesting i heard once, Who are these False Saints Mimicking, if not the Real ones? The Pseudo are proof that True Saints exist and it is because of them that the False ones are. If the Pseudo are a bad copy, then there does exist the Original ones, they have existed and will continue to exist.

"Is there anything I can do to make myself enlightened?"

"As little as you can do to make the sun rise in the morning."

"Then of what use are the spiritual exercises you prescribe?"

"To make sure you are not asleep when the sun begins to rise."

~ Anthony deMello, from One Minute Wisdom

seems as if these words were from Jaap Sahib.

it makes very much sense. I too have been taught to do a self-analysis from time to time to see if I am heading towards the right path, to see if I've progressed, to see if I've reached the markers set forth by those who walked before me.

Nice analogy, and sorry to be pedantic, but my amateur zoological interests leads me to believe the snake would not have attacked the contemplative (analytical) bloke, but rather the one who made the sudden movements. Snakes value their venom, as when used, it takes time to replace it, which means a longer time without food. A snake would attack if provoked i.e. threatening movement.

Also, going back to Puran Singh Ji's quote, this clearly shows I am more of the Brahmanical persona rather than the "emotional" opposite.

Does Gurbani not deem to analyse or explain the "truth" behind lifes concepts i.e. the cause of our pain, the purpose of maya, "true" love, recognising good and bad qualities in people, being able to identify Brahmgyani's etc...

I think Puran Singh Ji's statement is a little extreme, the ideal lies somewhere in the middle, we need enough analysis to understand and serve our spiritual purpose, or even the "right" type of analysis - i.e. that which will lead us closer to Vaheguru's charan, rather than ego feeding analysis....

I forgive you for ruining my analogy by analyzing too much into it.

but perhaps it is extreme because the references are made to the extremes of analysis. The thought and mind are continually used to analyze a certain experience when that experience was not of the mind, but it was the lack of mind. How can the mind conceptualize it? Like the experience of Love in the example give. To force the mind to create some sense of the experience would mean certain death to the experience itself.

Is this book available in .pdf??

2 friends were sitting underneath a tree when all of a sudden a Snake fell upon them both. While one friend quickly got up and out of fear that the snake might bite, the other remained in the same position pondering why the snake fell? How did it climb up the tree? What was it doing there? Did someone intentionally put the snake on the tree? It was only a matter of time that the snake bit the other friend and he died!

Thanks for the replies! Pheena - what do you mean by 'vacancy'? - emptiness?

another thing I'm not sure about (hence my name...) is how to read Gurbani with Pyaar. I was told that this is the way that Gurbanis 'Anbhav saroop' can be experienced. Does it mean reading slowly, trying to understand?

you wish to fill yourself with bairaag and love....well it is but obvious we need to clear some space in our heart and mind. There has to be vacancy in our heart and mind in order for us to fill it with something else, something new. You can't have both the World and God in there. One has to go as there is only one Throne.

The world is currently occupying our heart and mind, soon as we remove it, the sooner we can fill it with the quest to fill it with God...as soon as the quest is started, the sooner the deep yearning for god awakens, as soon as the yearning awakens...then...well....only the experience can speak for itself.

Baba Bullay shah went to his master and asked him, How do I find God. His Master was planting onions, plucked the onion from one side and planted it in another and said, "Bulliah rub tha kee pouna,...aithro puttna, aithar laouna" Our mind is the onion that needs to be rooted up from the world and planted in the remembrance of God.

You cannot be taught how to love, nor are there instructions on how to love....it creates its own rules...when it arrives only then does one understand. Read with Urgency...read as if this will be the last time you will be reading....I personally sing the words when i read...sing as slow as you like...there is no wrong way to do it...sing with your whole body...don't worry so much about finishing what you are reading, just read with your eyes, listen with your ears, let your mind create its own rhythm. Perhaps you won't entirely understand what is being said, but you can sing it on the basis alone that these words came from the Anubhav of the Gurus and Bhagats. Personally for me Understanding came much later...first I sang and sang without a care that i was understanding anything...I simply sang. Slowly the mind gathered to hear the words being spoke and understanding of the words became easier. The joy was in both Singing and Understanding. But this was my experience, doesn't mean you will experience it the same way.

You don't have to become a full Yogi to sit like one! Be the child that mimics his parent.

its neither for the masses or the elite. but its for that individual who is prepared to give the sacrifice it demands.

You must create vacancy within you. Remove the world from your heart, it is then that when this valley is created that the water from the monsoons are accumulated there, it is then that the floods happen that wash away things that are shallow and false.

this might help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosas

On Gurumaa's website i found this:

Who is God?

No one! It is just a fabrication and imagination of charlatans to keep man away from his own truth. God is just an idea, a belief created by smart people to fool you, rule on you. There is no God sitting up above in sky. If you ask a pig who is god then maybe that pig will think of some super pig and same goes with dogs, cats, rats, and human beings too assume that God is some super human power thus we have our father in heaven.

God is an imaginary dream created by men so that they can entertain themselves and exploit others. So the priest says that there is Father, holiest of holy, all powerful one who is taking care of this world and will take care of you too, provided you keep the priest happy. Man finds solace in this system, so imaginary god has been given real homes - temples, gurdwaras, synagogues, mosques and so on. God is a fiction, a fairy tale. Every religion has its own and every religion says ours is the best. So there are a lot of gods and gods and a lot of god vendors, retailers who sell you this idea. Don’t be fooled!

If i am correct this means she does not believe in a creator. If i am wrong please correct me.

You've missed the point of what is said. She has spoken against the Dogma of God, the business of God, God being used as a weapon of fear to control the people that is preached by the so-called heads of Religion.

she is saying don't be fooled by those who put fear in your of God, those that try to sell you God, those are the ones who have nothing to do God. God used by them is False, nothing but a tool to exploit others.

Don't read the words alone, but read what the word are trying to tell you, their intention. Rid yourself of preconceived ideas of God and it will make more sense.

where can i get that shirt??

This was posted by the user Hari a while back.. Hopefully it will give you a newer prespective on your question.

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...&highlight=

This is a Shabad by Satguru Arjun Devan Dev in praise of Vishnu-Krishna Bhagvan (Sargun Vahiguru):

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3794

You will see names of Krishna Bhagvan like: Madhusudan (Killer of Madhu demon), Damodar, Rikhikesh, Govardhan Dhari (lifter of Gavardhan mountain), Murali-Manohar (Manohar the player of the flute), Mohan, Madhav, Murari (the flute player), Narsingh (man-lion Avatar), Narayan (the abode of man), Bavan (Avatar of Vishnu), Ram Chand, Chakrapani (wielder of the Sudarshan Chakra), Gopi-nath (Master of the Gopi's), Basudev, Niranjan and loads more.

You will love this Shabad, especially if you are a Vishnu-Krishna hater.

Dhan Dhan Shri Krishna Maharaj!

Dhan Dhan Satguru Arjun Maharaj!

ahh i guess i should've seen this before i sorta cleand up t that thread.

Ah Swami Yogananda an his hatred of sex...

Prophet Adam is actually mentioned in gurbani but like with any semitic reference it refers to the Islamic Adam.

Adam was not only the first human being but also the first ever Prophet and Imam. Hence he was infallible and sinless. As in the garden of Eden there was no law Prophet Adam commited no sin. He just didn't do what was best for him. In the Qur'an Eve is not the origin of sin like in Judeo-Christianity nor are humans born sinful because of her. Women's essentially negative image in Judeo-Christianity as being the temptress does not exist in real Islam and in Sikhi.

The biblical myth has been the justification for the persecution of women in Western history and for repressive attitudes towards sexuality. Swami Yogananda lived in a time where colonial India had adopted this Victorian repressive discourse. Him and his master also had this very colonial attitude of trying to show the "white master" that their religion was worth respect because it was "scientific", much in the same ridiculous way how Neo-Sikhs try to prove that Ikomkar represented the big-bang and evolution theory...

Not only is the biblical myth charged with mysoginy but Sri Yukteshvar's commentary stygmatises women as emotional sexual temptresses and as the origin of the rational male's downfall.

Pheena could have complemented this quote from Autobiography of a Yogi with another quote...the one where the unbearded Swami Yogananda narrates his privildege of having slept in the same bed as his master...

Oh Eve...how men of all nations have slandered you though the ages and projected their own shortcomings on you and women...

Could you perhaps try to explain how did you arrive to this view that Swami Yogananda had hatred for sex. Hatred is a strong word, so please clarify for us.

This certainly is a understanding of this story and regards to them succoming to their 'white masters'. To me Swami ji was simply trying to create a bridge between the east and the west, not necessariliy try to say their religion was worth respect. Do you think such a soul would care about the view points of those that had no idea of the depths of Spirituality? To try to get the whites to like them. Everyone has their purpose in propogating Spiritual matters...if this purpose brought them closer to White people, how is that a bad thing? Do they become traitors to their india because perhaps the Purpose of Swami ji was to bring his wisdom to the west?

If it was indeed their hatred for sex and trying to project women as "sexual temptresses" then why is the successor of Swami ji a woman who is physically alive today? Lahiri Mahasaya who was the Guru of Swami Yukteswar had many Woman deciples. Throughout the book there are many refrences to the Hindu Goddesses. Even so during the early years of Swami ji, He used to even pray to the Godess (can't remember which one). Please clarify so i can understand where you are coming from.

I don't see what relevency Swami ji sleeping in the same bed as his Master has to do with this? I certainly hope you are not going where I think you are going with this.

love for the lord,

I would suggest that you do simran, with love....and whatever it is that keeps you on this path...stick to it, you'll find that guru starts revealing himself to you and all your answers will come to you (in due time)....the key is to stick to it...

That is where I failed, and I am in shambles now; I am trying to get back to that

So it seems I am not the only one who tripped on the same rock....We should join forces my friend...

The raag is EXPLICITLY mentioned in gurbani and it is hence OBLIGATORY to play it as it is Guru's hukam. Playing outside the inidicated raag is simply manmat. No discussion or grey zone here.

As is attending the Sangat of the Saints and bowing to them, yet people consider that to be manmat as well to bow to True Saints. Which is far more clearly expressed and made "OBLIGATORY" as you put it.

I have seen people weep in Vairaag while singing with this "Manmat"? Why did this Grace fall upon the Manmats of non-raag style yet full of love Kirtan?

With due respect to my brothers and sister above, this is rather a blanket statement - akin to what many "mona" and "sehajdhari" individuals like to state about the kakkars - i.e. it is not hair and kirpan that is important but the spirituality ("Rub kesha vich nahee, dil vich hai").

It seems that those who like Kirtan which is either commercial (i.e. Indian "Ragis" who are usually poor musicians but love to earn tax free earnings from Gurdwara Sangats by playing Bollywood rip off tunes) or enjoy the 'wicked' and 'happening' sounds of a peculiar style of kirtan clearly "invented" over the course of the past 50 or so years (usually with no trained musicians, hence the out of tune tablas being banged on with full force and very little in the way of any skill and 'besura' vocals over a folk tune meted out on the harmonium - alternatively this can also be with dholki and cheneh with the kirtan interpersed with random lines made by the leading vocalist, however I digress into another debate) are simply doing the same with other parts of our tradition and maryada - i.e. only the words matter and nothing else.

I have always found it strange that those items which are practically written in stone for all to see are usually ignored or passed over (i.e. The use of Raags as is the discussion here, the key themes of the Japji Sahib, Rehras and Sohila Sahib, the "Sri Mukhvak" of Guru Gobind Singh in the Dasam Granth etc etc) and instead those who claim to be the upholders of Tat Gurmat and the 'backbone' of the Panth have free reign to invent and propagate traditions and customs that never existed supporting them with questionable references and poor analysis, usually based on what one individual may have said or experienced, however contrary that may be to Guru-Maryada.

First of all I most certainly understand the passion in your words, so im not in disagreement with you but if you can please provide some thoughts to my inquiry.

Due to the "free reigns" (as you have suggested) that have been established and the wide spread of non-raag kirtan, do you suppose we create a hardrule to play only raag kirtan. If such a rule is established from these "upholders of Tat Gurmat" what of those who wish to sing yet are unable to sing in raag due to either their vocal limitations or the lack of teachers to teach the proper raag style of kirtan.

I personally know maybe 2-3 people who have the potential and/or ability to sing in raag out of the 15-20 or so individuals who do kirtan in my community. In your personal view do you feel that those 15 should not sing at all? I am not suggesting that these people are anti-raag, but they are unable to due to the obvious circumstances i mentioned above.

I suppose making do with what you have is not a possible solution, or is it?

Perhaps Javanmard can give us a better understanding of the word as he is well versed in Islam.