HarjasDevi
-
Posts
427 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
2
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Gallery
Downloads
Posts posted by HarjasDevi
-
-
WHY IS IT MODERATORS DONT TAKE DESTRUCTION OF SIKHISM BY THESE PEOPLE SERIOUSLY ???
I THINK YOUR DOING MORE DAMAGE THAN GOOD TO SIKHISM BY ALLOWING THESESORT OF PEOPLE TO TALK WHO SAY MARRIAGE WAS VEDIC AND AMRIT SANCHAR WASWRONG, DASAM GRANTH IS WRONG ETC. YOU MODS ARE AS BAD AS PEOPLE LIKEGUPTSINGH AND WILL ALL BE LIABLE BEFORE GOD I TELL U THAT MUCH FOR FREE
For what it's worth veer Ji I don't want to see your viewpoint under moderation. I think what the moderator Jeo was objecting to was your style. You have a valid opinion and you can calm down and put that into perfectly good points. Just accept that everyone is not going to agree with you. You wrote a lot of personal attack about me that was really childish in another thread. Why don't you channel your energies more wisely, and instaed point out why you think something is wrong, why you think something is dangerous.
Look, nobody has the power to destroy Sikhism. And you aren't a sant-sipahi qualified to defend it. Not like this with bitter words and spewing insults and threats and things. When you lose Dharma, there's nothing you can defend. The only right to force you have is in defense, when all other means have failed. Not over someone's opinions, dodgey or not.
You're going on about "bad people." I myself, seem to be one of them. Why not live and let live? You can't change my opinions and I can't change yours. But it's foolish to think you can have a fair and intelligent opinion forum filled with banning, censorship and intimidation of anyone who doesn't agree with a certain sampradaya, or certain view. Have you ever heard of Panthic Ekta? I would like to know who's going around telling these young and punky people they are God's gift to Sikhism and have the right to announce who should live and who should die?
If anyone is destroying Sikhism, it isn't open debate, analysis and the freedom to correct and contradict. But the people who are acting like thugs and bullying all viewpoints which disagree with them by baiting, threats, personal slanders, attacks and intimidation. These people are making Sikhism look like Taliban.
At the end of the day, our opinions about the truth don't matter. And in fact nobody has got it "right." Regardless what all the foolish people in the world "think," the eternal Truth will always be the "Truth." It can't be wounded, bullied, sullied or tarnished. It remains ever Pure. And that Niramal Sat is a Divine Presence who loves us. He is in love with all His creation. If we lose the message of love and justice, then we are out of tune with "Truth."
-
Harjas describes Bhagat Namdev as vaishnva.Vaishnva is a follower of vishnu and his avtars like Krishna and Rama.
She needs to read Gurbani before making such nonsense claims.
ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥
paaNday tumraa raamchand so bhee aavat daykhi-aa thaa.
O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too
ਰਾਵਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਰਬਰ ਹੋਈ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਜੋਇ ਗਵਾਈ ਥੀ ॥੩॥
raavan saytee sarbar ho-ee ghar kee jo-ay gavaa-ee thee. ||3||
; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3||
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥
hindoo poojai dayhuraa musalmaan maseet.
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.
ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਨ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
naamay so-ee sayvi-aa jah dayhuraa na maseet. ||4||3||7||
Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7||
SGGS 874
What exactly veer ji did you find against Vaishnavism in that Guru vaak? Those stories of Ramayana are known by everybody. It was no insult to Vaishnav sampradaya to point it out. It was the Bhakti reform of Vaishnavism which first accepted all castes, foreigners like Musalims, and women. It was this Sant Mat Bhakti which had such influence on Sufism.
The problem seems to be the distorted definition of Sanatana Dharma as only the worst and most outrageous excesses, Brahminism, etc, that blinds people to the real history of what the saints within Sanatana Dharma have been teaching for hundreds of years. The tuuk is saying that Naam Dev Ji has turiya consciousness and has transcended. It is not saying anybody's worship is false. It is only pointing out that people's understanding of spirituality is limited and stuck in duality. Any Hindu knows that Ram and Sita and also Ravan are within ourselves. There is a profound symbolism in the teachings. The sants like Nam Dev understood the essence directly. But nothing is a condemnation of Vaishnavism, das avtaray, Ram, Vishnu, or anything like it.
-
ERR ??? WHAT ARE YOU ON SOME DRUGS FOR SCHIZOPHRENIA OR SOMETHING. OAND YOU CAN TYPE ASWELL CUZ IT SEEMED THAT YOU KNOW ONLY HOW TO COPYAND PASTE.PLEASE GIVE US A MORE DETAILED EXPLANATION I WANT ATLEAST ACOUPLE OF PAGES OF STUFF HERE, THE SHORT RESPONSE TECHNIQUE YOUR TRYINGDOESN'T SUIT YOU. LOL
NAMDEV ISN'T A VAISHNAV BHAGAT HE ADOPTED GURMAT SIDDANT.
HARJAS YOUR WELL DODGY MAAN !!! I SUGGEST YOU BE BANNED FROM HERE ONTHE GROUNDS OF DIMINISHED RESPONSIBILITY AND BE SENT TO A SECUREPSYCHIATRIC UNIT STRAIGHT AWAY.
Bhagat Nam Dev Ji was born in 1270, died 1350.
Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born in 1469.
So, he adopted Gurmat Siddant 119 years before Guruji was born...
And I should be banned because it's crazy to inform the Sikh Awareness sangat that he was a devotee of Vishnu roop Visoba and wrote what is essentially Vaishnav Mat 100 years before there was a form of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He is a famous reformer of Sanatana Dharma from within the bhakti movement, that makes him a Vaishnav. If it makes you happy to accuse me falsely in degrading ways, then I thank you for carrying my sins. But veer ji, your logic and motivation are still not right. Neither is your conclusion denying the obvious. Perhaps if you used less grade school baiting and flaming technique, your discussion of spiritual issues would be useful to someone. No one can learn anything in an atmosphere of abusive talk and hatred and banning. I invite you to reflect on how you are presenting Sikhi to the world. As I said before, this kind of representation has lost the boat of mukti and has nothing to offer a suffering world.
ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਰੁ ਉਠਾਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਮਜੂਰੀ ਭਾਰੁ ਪਹੁਚਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥
nindhaa kar kar bahu bhaar outhaavai bin majooree bhaar pahuchaavaniaa ||4||
By continually slandering others, they carry a terrible load, and they carry the loads of others for nothing.
~SGGS Ji ang 118
andham tamah pravisanti
ye'sambhutim upasate
tato bhuya iva te tamo
ya u sambhutyam ratah.
Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance,
and still more so do the worshippers of the Absolute.
~Isopanishad mantra 12
It is not by our worship or by our belief and understanding that we will find the path to mukti. It is only by Guru's grace. Whether we worship and believe in the murthi or it's symbolic representations or claim to be devotees of AKAAL, we are trapped in the avidya and darkness of our minds, we remain captive to the lusts and ego in our hearts that puts ourselves higher and another lower. So the Upanishad is warning that those who try to worship that which is beyond worship and form are in the greater ignorance than those who worship demi-gods. "Only He Himself can know Himself." We cannot worship what the mind can't even conceive. We can only surrender to the gyaan and piare of Satguruji. Through bhakti and bairaag we will cling to the Guru's charan, and put those charan on our hearts and on our minds and be freed from the terrible bondages burning there.
It has never mattered what people think about the Divine. It's not by our thoughts that liberation can come. But for certain the despising of others, ridiculing them and egoistic hatred will take us far from the path of grace and love.
-
SANGATS BENTI I FOLLOW BUT I WOULD JUST LIKE TO ADD THAT HARJAS IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME - MOORAKH NAAL NA LOOJEYEH
Thanks for the tip.
Yas tu sarvani bhutany
atmany evanupasyati
sarva-bhutesu catmanam
tato na vijugupsate.
A person who sees everything in relation to the Supreme Lord, and sees all entities as His parts and parcels,
and who sees the Supreme Lord within everything, never hates anything, nor being.
~Shri Isopanishad mantra 6
-
AKAAL is the true essence of Krishan Ji. However, what is being described is sargun roop of Krishan Ji is not exactly the same thing as formless AKAAL. Otherwise why didn't the bani just negate every reference to Krishan Ji's roop and simply write AKAAL. Obviously there has to be some meaning for it. The error is not the clear description of Krishan Ji in Gurbani, but the refusal to acknowledge it. Just because the God is nirgun and sargun doesn't mean that we should get hysterical at every mention of some sargun roop or avtaray and immediately try to fit it into nirgun box. Even this is a mental concept not grasping the significance that bani being cited and discussed is Vaishnav bhagat bani of Nam Dev, and hence clearly and unmistakeably references to sarguna in form of Krishan Ji. How many hoops you want to jump through to deny it and blame translations?"The Lord being described here is unmistakably Krishna, not AKAAL. And the adventures being described all come from Puranic and Shastric literature."I think the point Bhenji, is that the lord being described is Akaal - as Akaal is the true essence behind Sri Krishna Ji.
I agree with Laal Singhs above post.
-
The Lord being described here is unmistakably Krishna, not AKAAL.
Harjas ji, you are great in rest of the post. But isn't Krishna the One in Vaishnav mat? Same One is Shiva in Shaivitism, Allah in Islam, (thougth not mentioned in Gurbani, Jesus in Christanity).
Yes, Krishna is AKAAL. But the formless aspect is not being described as blue-skinned, murali, vrindavan, with gopis, etc. So obviously what is being described is a sargun aspect. And that aspect is unmistakably Krishna roop, not AKAAL. It is not a translation error.
-
YOU ALSO HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THE SARGUN AKAAL IS ONLY TEMPORARY AND HISREAL FORM IS NIRGUN......NIRGUN VAHEGURUU HAS NO ARMS NEVER MIND 4 ASYOU SEEM TO THINK......HOWEVER IN SARGUN FORM HIS ARMS COULD BEINFINITE LOOK AT A CENTIPEDE CREATURE, IT HAS HUNDRED LEGS.....LETS SAYON EARTH THERE ARE 100 THOUSAND CENTIPEDES THAT WOULD MEAN THAT GOD HAS100000x100 LEGS...BIT OF FOOD FOR THOUGHT FOR YOU.
NEVERTHELESS YOUR NOT AS INTELLIGENT AS YOU APPEAR ON THIS SITE ANDAGAIN YOU KEEP ON POSTING TONS OF IRRELEVANT STUFF AND YOU APPEARCONFUSED AND CRAZY...WHY IS YOUR AVATAAR A PICTURE OF DEVI THIS ISMANMAT AS SIKHS ARE NOT DEVOTEES OF DEVI, AGAIN THIS SHOWS THAT YOU ARELACKING BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF SIKHISM.........
I THINK YOUR BETTER OF ON SOME HINDUISM FORUM
You are doing what is called a straw man fallacy. You are setting up that my points are something ridiculous so you can pat yourself on the back while tearing down the ridiculous thing. The problem is the lie in your mouth distorting what I have said as ridiculous. I said sargun is temporary and finite. Why would you lie that I said otherwise? I said Nirguna is without and beyond form. What exactly is your objection? I did not abuse your personal characteristics to call as stupid and insane veer ji. Why don't you take a look in the mirror at what kind of person you really are.
Why is every few posts always telling me to go away to the Hindus? Do you really believe I have no right to express an opinion here? Is this about censorship and using flaming abuse of personal characteristics to bully a certain political viewpoint which is anti-Hindu? What's wrong with a picture of Devi? I like what She represents. Especially there are so few holy and powerful images of females in the world which are not playthings for manmukh men. Devi is a wonderful role model. Why trash that?
.WHY IS YOUR AVATAAR A PICTURE OF DEVI THIS ISMANMAT
Why is a picture manmat? I had an experience of Devi. That was manmat too? Why are you trashing Hindu religion and someone's personal beliefs? Is that because Sikh's are haters of any view not in their own sampradaya or box? Wouldn't that be "manmat?"
-
Haven't read it...
Best translation: Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, in "Gobind Geeta"
Worst: Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
M.K. Gandhi was raised by Jains. His entire world-view was actually Jain mat, and utterly contrary to the teachings of Bhagavad-Gita. This extreme Jain pacifism is why he disrespected Marathi hero Shivaji as well as Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj.
-
PAL 07 writes:
HARJAS,(copy and paste queen)Your interpretation of this shabad (below)is incorrect - this showsyour lack of the deeper understanding of Gurbani - chaturbuj here hasdifferent meaning.
with respect you can't just look at Gurbani literaly you have to lookat context which is determined by several factors which includehistorical events behind the shabad.
The fact of the matter is that God doesn't even have one arm never mind four - God has no form at all
Veer ji, is that really a way to talk to someone? What exactly is the different meaning of chaturbuj? We can't look at the Gurbani literally in your case, because the entire pauri on page 1082 is a literal PRAISE of the God in Das Avtaray. You say it is not literally 4 arms. Yet is says clearly, 4 arms. Is it also not really blue skin, murali the flute player either? Is it really not Vrindavan and gopis? Is it really not? Then what really is it? please?
It is true that the God is beyond form in Nirguna. But all the creation is roop of the Lord as well. Does not Gurbani say the Lord is niragun AND saragun? If the Lord is saragun, that means there is a form. Now, as to form, what is a form? A form is only a representation, a shadow of something deeper and more intrinsic. When I look at a human being, I only see the face, the flesh, the physicality. The body is your FORM. But YOU are not your body. YOU are something the eye cannot see.
-
veer ji Singh2 writes:
"The verses are very clear.Do not find fault with translations."
Yet the shabad in context of which you have written is also saying below:
ਹਰਏ ਨਮਸਤੇ ਹਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
Har▫e namasṯe har▫e namah.
I bow to the Lord, I humbly bow to the Lord.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤ ਨਹੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਮਹ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Har har karaṯ nahī ḏukẖ jamah. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, you will not be tormented by the Messenger of Death. ||1||Pause||
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਨਾਕਸ ਹਰੇ ਪਰਾਨ ॥
Har harnākẖas hare parān.
The Lord took the life of Harnaakhash,
ਅਜੈਮਲ ਕੀਓ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਹਿ ਥਾਨ ॥
Ajaimal kī▫o baikunṯẖėh thān.
and gave Ajaamal a place in heaven.
ਸੂਆ ਪੜਾਵਤ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਤਰੀ ॥
Sū▫ā paṛāvaṯ ganikā ṯarī.
Teaching a parrot to speak the Lord's Name, Ganika the prostitute was saved.
ਸੋ ਹਰਿ ਨੈਨਹੁ ਕੀ ਪੂਤਰੀ ॥੨॥
So har nainhu kī pūṯrī. ||2||
That Lord is the light of my eyes. ||2||
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤ ਪੂਤਨਾ ਤਰੀ ॥
Har har karaṯ pūṯnā ṯarī.
Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Pootna was saved,
ਬਾਲ ਘਾਤਨੀ ਕਪਟਹਿ ਭਰੀ ॥
Bāl gẖāṯnī kaptahi bẖarī.
even though she was a deceitful child-killer.
ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਦ ਸੁਤ ਉਧਰੀ ॥
Simran ḏaropaḏ suṯ uḏẖrī.
Contemplating the Lord, Dropadi was saved.
ਗਊਤਮ ਸਤੀ ਸਿਲਾ ਨਿਸਤਰੀ ॥੩॥
Ga▫ūṯam saṯī silā nisṯarī. ||3||
Gautam's wife, turned to stone, was saved. ||3||
ਕੇਸੀ ਕੰਸ ਮਥਨੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥
Kesī kans mathan jin kī▫ā.
The Lord, who killed Kaysee and Kans,
ਜੀਅ ਦਾਨੁ ਕਾਲੀ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ॥
Jī▫a ḏān kālī ka▫o ḏī▫ā.
gave the gift of life to Kali.
~SGGS Ji ang 874.
The Shabad comes from Bhagat Nam Deyv, a great 13th century Vaishnava sant. The LORD described in the bani, is Bhagavan Krishna, the incarnation of Hari. It is describing the Lila of the Lord who will liberate the world from the net of delusion which is Maya. But in other places bani says the God Himself has deluded us. The God Himself is Maya. It cannot be taken out of context.
*Who took the life of Harnaakhash who threatened to kill Prahlad? It was Vishnu avatar Narasingh the man-lion.
*Who gave the mahapaapi Brahmin Ajamal a place in heaven? Narayana, because on death-bed he called out name Narayan.
*What was going on with Pootna/Putana? Here is the background of the story and will explain entire pauri and all the jado tuna stuff and goddess of smallpox who killed children.
*Who saved dropadi's honor? Bhagavan Krishna
*Who killed the demons Kaysee and kans? Bhagavan Krishna
The Lord being described here is unmistakably Krishna, not AKAAL. And the adventures being described all come from Puranic and Shastric literature.
After consulting with his demoniac ministers, Kamsa instructed a witch named Putana, who knew the black art of killing small children by ghastly sinful methods, to kill all kinds of children in the cities, villages and pasturing grounds. Such witches can play their black art only where there is no chanting or hearing of the holy name of Krsna. It is said that wherever the chanting of the holy name of Krsna is done, even negligently, all bad elements--witches, ghosts, and dangerous calamities--immediately disappear... Actually there was no danger from the activities of Putana, despite her powers. Such witches are called khecari, which means they can fly in the sky. This black art of witchcraft is still practiced by some women in the remote northwestern side of India. They can transfer themselves from one place to another on the branch of an uprooted tree. Putana knew this witchcraft, and therefore she is described in the Bhagavatam as khecari.Putana entered the county of Gokula, the residential quarter of Nanda Maharaja, without permission. Dressing herself just like a beautiful woman... The innocent cowherd women thought that she was a goddess of fortune appearing in Vrndavana with a lotus flower in her hand. It seemed to them that she had personally come to see Krsna, who is her husband. Because of her exquisite beauty, no one checked her movement, and therefore she freely entered the house of Nanda Maharaja. Putana, the killer of many, many children, found baby Krsna lying on a small bed, and she could at once perceive that the baby was hiding His unparalleled potencies. Putana thought, "This child is so powerful that He can destroy the whole universe immediately."
Putana's understanding is very significant. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is situated in everyone's heart. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that He gives one necessary intelligence, and He also causes one to forget...
Krsna showed the nature of a small baby and closed His eyes, as if to avoid the face of Putana. This closing of the eyes is interpreted and studied in different ways by the devotees. Some say that Krsna closed His eyes because He did not like to see the face of Putana, who had killed so many children and who had now come to kill Him. Others say that something extraordinary was being dictated to her, and in order to give her assurance, Krsna closed His eyes so that she would not be frightened. And yet others interpret in this way: Krsna appeared to kill the demons and give protection to the devotees, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. The first demon to be killed was a woman. According to Vedic rules, the killing of a woman, a brahmana, cows or, of a child is forbidden. Krsna was obliged to kill the demon Putana, and because the killing of a woman is forbidden according to Vedic Sastra, He could not help but close His eyes...
Putana had smeared a very powerful poison on her breasts, and immediately after taking the baby on her lap, she pushed her breastly nipple within His mouth. She was hoping that as soon as He would suck her breast, He would die... In other words, Krsna simultaneously sucked the milk from her breast and killed her by sucking out her life. Krsna is so merciful that because the demon Putana came to offer her breast-milk to Him, He fulfilled her desire and accepted her activity as motherly. But to stop her from further nefarious activities, He immediately killed her. And because the demon was killed by Krsna, she got liberation. Putana Killed
ਭੈਰਉ ਭੂਤ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥
Bẖairo bẖūṯ sīṯlā ḏẖāvai.
One who chases after the god Bhairau, evil spirits and the goddess of smallpox,
ਖਰ ਬਾਹਨੁ ਉਹੁ ਛਾਰੁ ਉਡਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
Kẖar bāhan uho cẖẖār udāvai. ||1||
is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust. ||1||
ਹਉ ਤਉ ਏਕੁ ਰਮਈਆ ਲੈਹਉ ॥
Ha▫o ṯa▫o ek rama▫ī▫ā laiha▫o.
I take only the Name of the One Lord.
ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਬਦਲਾਵਨਿ ਦੈਹਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ān ḏev baḏlāvan ḏaiha▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. ||1||Pause||
ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤੇ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
Siv siv karṯe jo nar ḏẖi▫āvai.
That man who chants "Shiva, Shiva", and meditates on him,
ਬਰਦ ਚਢੇ ਡਉਰੂ ਢਮਕਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
Baraḏ cẖadẖe da▫urū dẖamkāvai. ||2||
is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine. ||2||
ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥
Mahā mā▫ī kī pūjā karai.
One who worships the Great Goddess Maya
ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥
Nar sai nār ho▫e a▫uṯarai. ||3||
will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3||
ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
Ŧū kahī▫aṯ hī āḏ bẖavānī.
You are called the Primal Goddess.
ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥੪॥
Mukaṯ kī barī▫ā kahā cẖẖapānī. ||4||
At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4||
ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥
Gurmaṯ rām nām gahu mīṯā.
Follow the Guru's Teachings, and hold tight to the Lord's Name, O friend.
ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ॥੫॥੨॥੬॥
Paraṇvai nāmā i▫o kahai gīṯā. ||5||2||6||
Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. ||5||2||6||
~SGGS Ji ang 874
Does Gurbani not also say in another place that people call on the One Lord by the Naam Shiva, Shiva?
This bani is indisputably from Vaishnava Sampradaya perspective because it is pointing out the preeminance of Naam, Gita, and the Lord HariKrishna. And for this reason, as per Vaishnav Mat, the Shaktas and Shaivas are being corrected that the only practices and Lord worthy is Bhagavan and Nama japa. The correction is being made for jado tuna people who use tantras and mantras to manipulate powers of Mayajog and evil spirits. If you studied Vaishnavism at all you would understand that Mayajog is also one of Bhagavan Krishna's powers. Which explains the other verse in bani stating that the Lord is Himself Maya.
Using logic, what Guru's teachings was Bhagat Nam Deyv referring to in bhagat bani? Hint, it was not Satguru Nanak Dev Ji. Namdev's Guru was Visoba. And the fact that this bani is part of Gurbani reflects the truth of the teaching and the universality of the truth. In the Kalyug as per Gita teaching, the only means of mukti is by Satguru and Nama Jap. The One Lord is permeating the Das Avataray as well as Gurbani vakia. I do not see where the teaching of Adi Shakti Devi and Sarbloh shastars is to be rejected on the basis of these tuuks. You do not understand what is being said here.
There is a huge history of sectarian in-fighting between the various sampradayas, especially the Shaivas and the Vaishnavas. And we could get entangled in endless debate over it. But the simplest resolution is as I already pointed out, the qualified Advaitvaad which explains the Pre-eminence of the Primal Unity who is One without a second. For this reason, Gurbani is reflecting the same description of devatay as the Vaishnav sampradaya, in that they are called as demi-gods, referring to subordination, or partial opulences of the One Bhagavan. It's a very specific and unmistakable philosophical school. But on the other hand, in the qualified Advaita perspective, there is no division. The division is perceived only because we are in duality and not turiya consciousness. The bhagat bani of Naam Deyv was referring to the story of Krishna nearly killed by the goddess of smallpox. So you have to understand not just the little pieces.
ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸਕਤੀ ਜਗਤੁ ਪਰੋਵਹਿ ॥
Āpe sakṯā āpe surṯā sakṯī jagaṯ parovėh.
You Yourself are All-powerful, and You Yourself are the Intuitive Knower.
The whole world is strung on the Power of Your Shakti.~SGGS Ji ang 1242
Whose shakti? Who is Shakti?
-
O yeh and just another thing there is no such thing as devi having 8arms (or anyother devtas for that matter) infact they only have twoarms like us and the other arms are symbolic of the things that theyare holding, notice in pictures of devi she is not carrying onlyweapons.
All have two arms like us? Where did you get that?
ਕਿਆ ਜਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਤਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
Ki▫ā jap ki▫ā ṯap ki▫ā baraṯ pūjā.
What use is chanting, and what use is penance, fasting or devotional worship,
ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਭਾਉ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥
Jā kai riḏai bẖā▫o hai ḏūjā. ||1||
to one whose heart is filled with the love of duality? ||1||
ਰੇ ਜਨ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਈਐ ॥
Re jan man māḏẖa▫o si▫o lā▫ī▫ai.
O humble people, link your mind to the Lord.
ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਨ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Cẖaṯurā▫ī na cẖaṯurbẖuj pā▫ī▫ai. Rahā▫o.
Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained.
~SGGS Ji ang 324
Who is the four-armed Lord in Gurbani? I will give you a hint.
ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||
ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī.
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.
ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī.
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082
Veer ji, to carry a conch is on it's own pretty meaningless unless you understand what the conch is representing. Then you understand the power being represented by the imagery. First of all, the Lord who has 4 arms and carries these implements is Hari. It's not a new idea, it's a very ancient Hidustani representation of God in the aspect of Vishnu shown as His brilliant Light roop which is golden colored, hence, He is called Hari, as in Harimandir Sahib.
This imagery doesn't mean Gurbani is talking about worshipping a murthi of a deva. It means, using the symbolic imagery of Hindustani culture and religion, Gurbani is not alienated from the symbolic imagery of Hindustani culture and religion the way we are today. The Guru Sahibaan and purataan Sikhs had a far deeper and better understanding of this imagery than the simplistic, nay, childish portrayals we make today.
The conch is used by Hindus for all sacred temple rituals. No other instrument is purer, because the conch is entire created by the Divine. It is not a man-made item. So it is not polluted by man. The conch is used to sound out the OM. So the conch is representing the Primal Nada. When Lord Vishnu is holding the conch shell, it is representing that the OM/AUM/Pranava which brought everything into creation is originating with Him. And in this aspect, because we know it was Brahma, and not Vishnu who is the creator, we can see that the aspect of Vishnu being expressed in the bani is Parabrahm, Mahavishnu, the Divine Creator Lord. This is entirely Vaishnav Sampradaya teaching. You see, in Sanatana Dharma, all these images aren't competing. It's not one Lording it over another. There is only the One without a second. And all the rest are opulences, lights, magnificences, glories, relating to the One God's inconceivable powers.
Today I am going to tell you how the conch came to be known by that name. There was once a wicked demon. His name was Panchajanya. Panchajanya tempted the young people into performing wrong acts. By engaging in wrong activities, the young people's lives were ruined. Lord Krishna's Guru's name was Sandipany. The son of Sandipany had become prey to the evil acts of Panchajanya. Krishna rescued the son of Sandipany and returned him to his parents. From the bones of Panchajanya, Krishna carved out a conch. When this conch was blown, it warned the evil people what fate awaited them, if they continued in their wicked activities. When the great battle Mahabharata was about to be waged in Kurukshetra, it was the Panchajanya conch that was blown to strike terror into the hearts of the enemy. The conch is also blown during auspicious occasions. The sound of the conch is like the 'Om' sound. PanchajanyaYou see the evil demon of the story, Panchajanya is also representing the panj vikaars which cause people to engage in wrong activities. It is the Lord Himself who warns them through the conch which represents the OM vibrating out of the primal NAAD into sansaara through teachings of true Guru who gives us Shabad, Bani, Giurmantr, NAAM. This protects us from the evil panj vikaars. That is the meaning of conch in the bani.
Devi Ma is shown as Shastar-dhari. She is the Battle goddess. That is Her role and function. The Adi Shakti is the energetic force present in those shastars dedicated to the Divine for Dharma. That is their empowerment that they become something holy themselves worthy of worship because the Divine Power is in them. The Divine Power is SYMBOLIZED by Durga Ma. But the Power and the Glory belong only to the One. THAT is Guruji's message. People aren't worshipping metal, they are showing the honor and submission to the Power of God in the sword. Because the God Himself has become a Sword. And the imagery with which He does this is Kalika. Kali is a shakti of Durga. You see, they are really all shakti's of each other, because they are reflections of a RADIANCE which is quite beyond human comprehension. And it it's fullness, that RADIANCE is only ONE. But Chandi/Durga Ma is Guruji's imagery. I didn't put that into the purataan heritage of Gursikhi.
The reason the devatay are shown with many arms and heads for example, is not because they are holding a lot of things.
It's because they are higher than human, multi-dimensional. Meaning they are acting on more than one level of reality. Where we can only do things on this dimensional reality and are subject to laws of science, they are not limited in the ways we are. Now, I did not say they are unlimited or without limits. Only AKAAL is without limits. Devatay have limits, but they are beyond our limits. That is the symbolic representation of their ability to do more than we can.
A 4 dimensional Hypercube, also called Tesseract. We can't really show a 2 or 3 dimensional representation of something beyond 4 dimensions and have it be a true representation in 3-dimensional space that makes any logical sense. Multi-dimensionality is shown by multi-limbs in Hindu tradition. Is there really a painting or sculpture which could capture the immensity of a multi-dimensional concept? How about the idea of universes and lokas originating thousands of years before telescopes and the debates whether the earth revolves around the sun?
-
laalsingh writes:
To make it more clear, divine mother( or Shakti from SGGS) and Bhagauti from Khalsa perspective are same or different?From established Sanatana Dharma teaching, Divine Mother, Adi Shakti and Baguati are different perspectives and only One. Devi, for example is just a feminine face that people conceptualize in their minds and put it onto a thought of what Divinity is. We already know the Divine is nirguna is TOTALITY and beyond any kind of forms and this is the truest understanding of God that He/She is beyond conceivable human perspectives and ideas. That's why, some little Buddhist lady praying on mala to ideas of Buddhas, or some Musalman Mataji bowing reverently or entreating help for suffering problems, or some Hindu mataji lighting dhoop and placing flowers before Ganapati murthi which reciting chalisa and singing bhajans, I mean all of it has error, but if sincere, all of these prayers are reaching the ONE. We can't really trash the beliefs and practices of others as if we had exclusive rights on God. And we don't know what is the thinking or level of understanding of other people to bully them for not having exactly OUR viewpoint.
There is no mother and no Father, and yet ALL conceptions in time and conceivably fallible human comprehension exist within the Divine Totality which manifests in a perceivable ways for our benefit, to reach us in this suffering realm and lead us to Divine peace, and Divine understanding, Divine joy, to unity.
How can I make this clear? It isn't simplistic. That's why I wrote so many posts citing Advaitvaad. God is our Beloved Mataji, Pitaji, He is our Divine Friend, the closest of the closest and residing right within our very atma. He is closer than the breath we breathe and the vitality which moves every thought into existence and every beat of the heart. But my brain and the chidabhasa of my intellect perceives and interprets is only a mirror of my own true inner light, the eternal witness, the Kutastha Caitanya. So the imaginings of my brain cannot contain the fullness and totality of concept of the Divine in any such way as to proclaim: yes, this imagery, this symbolism, this detail, this painting, this concept....is God. How can I do that and be correct? On the other hand, I cannot deny that human beings conceptualize God in limited ways. We ALL do this, that's how the brain and mind WORK. It's nothing to do with faults or bad intention. Our brains just work that way. We IMAGINE what God is. We are not at a level of directly PERCEIVING the Divine.
So it is closer to the analogy of the cave. We are looking at reflections of shadows on the cave wall. We can't look directly at the Light source which produces those images. Durga Ma is an image, a reflection, all devatay are. If you understood teachings of Bhagavad-Gita in this respect, you would know that not all devatay have the same powers and brilliances. Some are reflecting more than others. So it's a wrong understanding of Hindu religion to think all devatay are the same. Bhagavan Krishna for example is not considered the same as Trimurthi. Even Gurbani describes this. Sadashiva is not considered the same as Trimurthi.
So there is already philosophical distinction which should be noted between Brahma-Shiva-Vishnu who are representing the sansaara and the gunas under the delusion of Maya. And Maha-Vishnu as the aspect of Parabrahm which is All-Pervading Light of which Guru Sahibaan are Jyoti-Jyot. Parabrahm who is beyond even limits of Brahma and without limits, unborn and undying. Sadashiva who is Pure Consciousness which rests in eternal undisturbed samadhi who is Sat-Chit-Ananda.
The Trimurthi is representing the sargun manifestations of the limited sansaar. but the Para, Maha, Sada are symbolically trying to explain that the Eka is BEYOND the limitations of Sansaar.
Likewise, Devi has many radiances. But Mahamaya is like Maha-Vishnu, Sadashiva, Parabrahm. The one able to liberate from Maya because She is that aspect understood to be beyond it.
You are asking about "the lady with the tiger." Well I guess it depends on what you understand She is. If you see Her as a reflection, a radiance of the Divine, which is the role of devatay, then no, She is not worthy of worship. Only honor for Her role as helper of the Divine.
But if you understood the teachings of the Devi Mahatmyam itself, that She as representation is symbolizing a Greatness which is a trancendental unity, and that is the ONE Great Devi who is the Divine Mother.
If you understand that She is merely a reflection of the One Great Light who is our eternal Mata Ji and Pita Ji, then yes, we worship. But to worship the image of a lady on a tiger is foolish. To worship the eternal Light behind such representations is altogether different.
Is Shakti or Devi as per SGGS worth worshiping?Devi in Sanatana Dharma is synonymous with Divine Mother and hence, Parabrahm. I worship Divine Mother who is equally Divine Father and Divine Beloved. Shakti is only a manifestation of One Totality. Of what use is power without consciousness? To worship only in parts is limited. It's not fair to ridicule people for that belief or worship. But it is not correct. Yet, to be honest, how can we, with our limited brains really worship the worshipful Totality? We can't, and so we have Satguru. Cling to Satguruji's charan and He will carry us across, regardless the limitation of our understanding. It's not by our own efforts we attain God, it's by Guruji's grace.
To be more clear,Are you meditating on Shakti or Shiva?
Neither. When I meditate I try to clear my mind of all false and fleeting images arising from the human imagination and try to rest in the stillness of God's peace. Yet, I recognize Shiva and Shakti are reflections of something very Holy and beyond us. The very power and consciousness that brings life to the world and to universes upon universes. We can't even think of words of praise. The highest praise we can offer is to sing words of Guruji's shabads and to jap the holy Naam.
Please be concise.You're asking the impossible jeeo.
-
Thank you Kalyug Ji for the link. Yes I can read Gurmukhi but not fluently well, however I have friends who help and use dictionaries. So I'm a bit slow but can read through it no problem. I will definitely manage, I love spiritual philosophy. I also read a bit of Sanskrit, but not very good either.
-
He is also Pakistanis and Chinese.
You are worshiping maya (picture of tiger lady), but why not Pakistanis and Chinese?
1. Yes, HE is also abiding within every human being, every living thing, including terrible criminals and even those who we may consider national enemies, though they may be good hearted people and come from innocent families, like Pakistanis and Chinese.
2. I never said I worship Durga. I worship the All-Pervaiding and I honor all forms in which the Divine is expressed. To be honest I can't wrap my mind around exactly what God is, as Jap Ji Sahib expresses so clearly, I would never end writing trying to explain or understand it. But my Divine Beloved, absolutely do I dedicate my life, heart and mind.
3. You are forming judgments about me, what I am like, what I practice, what I believe, what I do, on the basis of assumptions. Did you ever once ask if I worship Devatay? I believe the sarguna which are lights manifesting in Sansaara are reflections of the ONE Great light. If you ever read my posts I also said we should acknowledge the Divinity pervading within each person and try to be a good person. We do namaskarum with folded hands for precisely this purpose. Not to worship the petty individual in front of us, but to honor the Paramatma.
Durga, like Raam, is just another representation of the Divine. She represents the Shastars guided by pure intention, to right wrongs, to bring justice for the poor and oppressed. No one in the world is like Durga Ma. Durga Ma is an ideal, a power, a radiance, a manifestation of something so great and so pure and so high, no human mind could ever fathom the grandeur and beauty of it.
4. Also, because I don't like the evil mischief and murderous designs of foreign intelligence agencies which jeopardize peace and prosperity, don't think I haven't criticized Indian police and justice system for evil corruptions either. Veer ji, you do me an injustice because my philosophical world-view is sanatan. And you slander what I actually do believe and practice and that is not right.
-
The Khalsa Fauj writes:
Posted Yesterday, 09:01 PM Devi bhagat, Harjas Kaur, you are lost in maayaa because Gurbani says:Devi Devaa Mool Hai Maayaa
Does Gurbani teach you veer ji to make judgmental statements about the qualities of others? And do you think personal attacks about someone's views are adding anything to a discussion with them? Let's take a look at Gurbani and see what is Gurmat on this subject please, without who is or is not deluded, since all here are except those with brahmgyaan. And I never make such arrogant claim because I so clearly am not. As a moorakh I am only with sincerity sharing my views and hoping also to gain greater insight from the sadhsangat ji.
ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
Ḏevī ḏevā mūl hai mā▫i▫ā.
The source, the root, of the gods and goddesses is Maya.
~SGGS Ji ang 129
Yes and the rest of the Shabad adds:
ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਭੁਗਤਾ ॥
Āpe karṯā āpe bẖugṯā.
He Himself is the Creator, and He Himself is the Enjoyer.
ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜੇ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਮੁਕਤਾ ॥
Banḏẖan ṯoṛe saḏā hai mukṯā.
One who breaks out of bondage is liberated forever.
ਸਦਾ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਆਪੇ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥
Saḏā mukaṯ āpe hai sacẖā āpe alakẖ lakẖāvaṇi▫ā. ||4||
The True Lord is liberated forever. The Unseen Lord causes Himself to be seen. ||4||
ਆਪੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪੇ ਛਾਇਆ ॥
Āpe mā▫i▫ā āpe cẖẖā▫i▫ā.
He Himself is Maya, and He Himself is the Illusion.
ਆਪੇ ਮੋਹੁ ਸਭੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
Āpe moh sabẖ jagaṯ upā▫i▫ā.
He Himself has generated emotional attachment throughout the entire universe.
ਆਪੇ ਗੁਣਦਾਤਾ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥
Āpe guṇḏāṯā guṇ gāvai āpe ākẖ suṇāvṇi▫ā. ||5||
He Himself is the Giver of Virtue; He Himself sings the Lord's Glorious Praises. He chants them and causes them to be heard. ||5||
ਆਪੇ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪੇ ॥
आपे करे कराए आपे ॥
Āpe kare karā▫e āpe.
He Himself acts, and causes others to act.
ਆਪੇ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪੇ ਆਪੇ ॥
Āpe thāp uthāpe āpe.
He Himself establishes and disestablishes.
ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
Ŧujẖ ṯe bāhar kacẖẖū na hovai ṯūʼn āpe kārai lāvaṇi▫ā. ||6||
Without You, nothing can be done. You Yourself have engaged all in their tasks. ||6||
~SGGS Ji ang 129
Can you explain it? HE is HIMSELF the MAYA and the root of the Devatay. The Devatay and the Maya are none other than HIM!
And the delusive net which is cast over the sansaar is HIS Lila! And our liberation through a Satguru is ALSO His Divine design! Nothing here is disrespecting devatay or Maya jios.
-
We are most certainly not Jiv Gosvamis achintyabhedaabhed as harjas kaur states purely because:
i) Braham is identified to be aatam 'anadar aatme braham n chiniaa...'
ii) aatam is defined to be satchitanand
iii) maya is moh-maya, that which veils, and is defined as the treh guna
iv) avidya and maya are described synonymously.
TSingh Ji, so sorry you do ot have more time, would be an amazing discussion to learn Nirmala perspective. Yes, there is Advait in Sikhi, based on Upanishadic teachings, which I was using quite a few Upanishadic references to illustrate. You are correct, this view is not on par with Goswami or Gaudiya Vaishnav as well. However, from what I understand of this series of debates between Swami Shanchayrachara and his purely Advaitist views, the Vaishnavs refer to as Mayavaadi, it was actually Mahaprabhu Caitanya who took the middle path saying there was neither a purely Advaita nor a purely Dvaita truth, rather there was a union of both ideas.
To illustrate, Advaita takes the position strictly that all is Brahman.
To the Vaishnav bhaktas this was abhorrent because they taught mukti was based on bhakti. The main principle teachings of Dvaitic Bhakti are Naam jap, Sankirtana, and the Mahamantar empowered by a Satguru. The perspective of Dvaita was praise of a God independent of His creation. We do in fact also see those teachings in Sikhism. Sikhism, quite independently of Vaishnav Sampradayas incorporated the Advaitic wisdom of the Upanishadic teachings of merging through self-realization with the Divine.
Achintya-Bheda-abheda, while originally postulated from the Vaishnava school is a qualified dualism and a qualified non-dualism. This position teaches that God is at once independent from His creation as well as manifest within it. And I believe this is the teaching illustrated in Gurbani. We are bhaktas, devotee's, soul-brides of a Divine Beloved whom we also call Gopala, Govinda, Antarjami. This cannot be other than originating from a Goswami perspective. Nonetheless, the unity principle of Advaitic Oneness persists as a teaching. And this is why it can never be said in Sikhi that the God is separate from His creation, as would be a purely Goswami Dvaitic conception and veering closer to a pure monothesim of Abrahamic religions.
The theism of the Eka is qualified, in that the infinity is incorporated into the Oneness. And that is why I have stated Sikhi philosophy is far closer to Achintya Bheda Abheda. To a strict Advaitist, you would not call the NAAMs of the God for liberation, nor practice bhakti and sankirtana. Because the God would not be accepted as other than your inner True Self.
Please do make time veer ji and clarify these points.
-
how does naam exist in the material world when it is spoken? And what if it is not spoken but mentally remmebered?
That which the meaning is, is nirguna. We cannot grasp the infinity in the meaning. So whether we mentally remember it or not, we are understanding only in part, not as wholeness. NAAM is not diminished in any way by our lapses or by our inability to grasp the meaning within the Divine Names and/or Gurmantr. Likewise, if we interiorize the NAAM, we have in fact by mental repetition initiated a vibration of the NAAM within our minds. The spoken sound which is heard by the physical senses is the part of the Shabda which is sargun. The vibration/spanda of the Shabda is already vibrating from the Primal Naad.
What's the Primal NAAD? It is the Pranava, the OM. The potency of the OM/AUM is in the Nada bindu, the point. The AUM represents the world of three gunas, as well as the three Mahadevas: Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesh. It represents the time-space dimensions of sansaara: Creation, preservation, dissolution. But the Nada bindu represents the fourth: that which is outside of and beyond time and space. The Nada bindu IS the Shabda Brahman.
"5(a). Then the Matra (or Mantra) beyond the Sahasrara (thousand-rayed) is explained (viz.,) should be explained.An adept in Yoga who bestrides the Hamsa (bird) thus (viz., contemplates on Om) is not affected by Karmic influences or by tens of Crores of sins.
The first Matra has Agni as its Devata (presiding deity); the second, Vayu as its Devata; the next Matra is resplendent like the sphere of the sun and the last, Ardha-Matra the wise know as belonging to Varuna (the presiding deity of water).
8. Each of these Matras has indeed three Kalas (parts). This is called Omkara." Nada Bindu Upanishad
The Sahasrara chakra, also called the thousand-petalled lotus is located at the Dasam Duara, the opening/unfolding of which gives one the Darshan of Vaheguru. The Hamsa bird, so called because resembles the two lobes of the brain looks like a bird, the ephemeral yogic"swan." It refers also to the HamSa, or SoHam, the ancient yogic mantram, "I am HE." The Omkara is so called because it was the vibration of the Nada which gave rise to the creation. Everything that exists comes from the vibrating sound current of the NAAD, Pranava, Eka Brahman, EK OMKARA, Ek Akshara, Ekonkar.
"17. That which is beyond these, (viz.,) Para-Brahman which is beyond (the above Matras), the pure, the all-pervading, beyond Kalas, the ever resplendent and the source of all Jyotis (light) should be known.18. When the mind goes beyond the organs and the Gunas and is absorbed,having no separate existence and no mental action, then (the Guru)should instruct him (as to his further course of development)...
That (portion of the) Karma which is done in former births and called Prarabdha does not at all affect the person (Tattva-Jnani), as there is no rebirth to him. As the body that exists in the dreaming state is untrue, so is this body. Where then is rebirth to a thing that is illusory ? How can a thing have any existence, when there is no birth (to it)?" Nada Bindu Upanishad
Veers, you have been making a big case that the God is Ajooni, beyond birth and Akaal, beyond time, undying. Some have said therefore, the God cannot incarnate as an avataara. Or, the God cannot be equal to His lesser lights, the devatay. Yet, in the non-dual reality, we are also an aspect which is unborn and undying. Because our existence itself is part of the veil of Maya, illusion. Because "we" are "He." So there is this artificial separation which does not philosophically exist in non-dualism. Because of the non-dual element of this philosophy it can be shown Chandi is really only Parabrahm. Just as an avatara is Parabrahm. Just as we speak the Divine Naams of Shiva, Krishna, Jaganatha Gopala, Govinda, Raam, Niranjana, and these being the names of devatay and avtaray because on the non-dual level there is no separation from Parabrahm. On the non-dual level there is no Shiva, no Krishna, no Raam, no Durga, no Devi. There is only the One. On the non-dual level there are no mirrors and no reflections, there is only Light.
Sa hovᾱca, mahimᾱna evaiṣᾱm ete, trayas trimśat tv eva devᾱ iti: "All these three thousand and all that I mentioned - they are not really gods. They are only manifestations of the thirty-three. The thirty-three are the principal manifestations, and others are only their glories, radiances, manifestations, magnificences or forces, energies, powers." "But what are these thirty-three?" katame te trayas triṁśad iti. "The thirty-three gods are eight Vasus, eleven Rudras, twelve Ādityas - they make thirty-one (ekatriṁśat) - then Indra and Prajāpati - these make thirty-three gods.""Now, these are called gods in a very special sense, and there is a meaning behind their being designated as gods. The term 'god' means a power that causally works inside a form. That which regulates from inside any particular individual, groups of individuals, etc. is the god of that individual or the god of that group of individuals. In a broad sense we may say, the cause of anything is the deity of that thing. Now again we have to bring to our mind the meaning of the word 'cause'. The deity does not operate as an external cause. The sun as the cause of the eye is not the sun that is ninety-three million miles away, disconnected from the eye in space. That principle which controls the eye or any other organ has something to do internally also with the structure of the organ. Likewise is the case with every other function. The god of any particular phenomenon is the invisible presence. So it will be mentioned here in the following passages that every visible object has a presiding deity inside. Even the hands cannot be lifted unless there is a force inside; the eyes cannot wink unless there is a force inside the eyes, likewise with every other function or limb of the individual. What are these Vasus, Rudras and Ādityas? They have to be explained. They are not far away from us. They are immanent within us." The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
"Katame rudrᾱiti: "Who are the Rudras?" The Rudrasare inside us. They are not in Mount Kailaśa, as theology would tell you. They are inside us, operating in a particular manner. The powers which constitute the Rudras are the ten senses and the mind. They are eleven in number. "The ten senses and the mind make eleven. These are the Rudras." They make you do whatever they like.They are the controllers of your system. You cannot do anything independent of the senses and the requisites of the mind. What can the body do? What can the individual as a whole do, except in the direction pointed out by the senses andthe mind? - katame rudrᾱ iti. daśeme puruṣeprᾱṇᾱḥ ᾱtmaikᾱdaśaḥ.Te yadᾱsmᾱtśarīrᾱn martyᾱd utkrᾱmanti, atha rodayanti, tad yadrodayanti, tasmᾱd rudrᾱ iti: Rudu is to cry, in Sanskrit. "When the senses and the mind leave the body, they make one cry in anguish." One is in a state of grief, and weeps in sorrow due to pain of severance of the senses and the mind from the physical abode. The individual concerned also cries (when they are leaving) and the other people connected with that individual also cry at the time of the departure of what we call the soul in the individual, which is nothing but this total function of the senses and the mind. Inasmuch as these eleven, the senses and the mind, subject the individual to their dictates and make you yield to their demands and clamours, and make you cry in agony if you violate their laws, they are called Rudras." Brihadaranyaka Upanishadਦਸਮੀ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰ ਬਸਿ ਕੀਨੇ ॥
dhasamee dhas dhuaar bas keenae ||
The tenth day of the lunar cycle: Overpower the ten sensory and motor organs;
ਮਨਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਿ ਲੀਨੇ ॥
man santhokh naam jap leenae ||
your mind will be content, as you chant the Naam.
ਕਰਨੀ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਜਸੁ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥
karanee suneeai jas gopaal ||
With your ears, hear the Praises of the Lord of the World;
ਨੈਨੀ ਪੇਖਤ ਸਾਧ ਦਇਆਲ ॥
nainee paekhath saadhh dhaeiaal ||
with your eyes, behold the kind, Holy Saints.
~SGGS Ji ang 298
"31. The Yogin being in the Siddhasana (posture) and practising the Vaishnavi-Mudra, should always hear the internal sound through the right ear...32. The sound which he thus practises makes him deaf to all external sounds. Having overcome all obstacles, he enters the Turya state within fifteen days.
33. In the beginning of his practice, he hears many loud sounds. They gradually increase in pitch and are heard more and more subtly.
34.At first, the sounds are like those proceeding from the ocean, clouds,kettle-drum and cataracts; in the middle (stage) those proceeding from Mardala (a musical instrument), bell and horn.
35. At the last stage, those proceeding from tinkling bells, flute, Vina (a musical instrument) and bees. Thus he hears many such sounds more and more subtle.
36. When he comes to that stage when the sound of the great kettle-drum is being heard, he should try to distinguish only sounds more and more subtle.
37. He may change his concentration from the gross sound to the subtle, or from the subtle to the gross, but he should not allow his mind to be diverted from them towards others.
38. The mind having at first concentrated itself on any one sound fixes firmly to that and is absorbed in it.
39. It (the mind) becoming insensible to the external impressions, becomes one with the sound as milk with water and then becomes rapidly absorbed in Chidakasa (the Akasa where Chit prevails).
40.Being indifferent towards all objects, the Yogin having controlled his passions, should by continual practice concentrate his attention upon the sound which destroys the mind.
41. Having abandoned all thoughts and being freed from all actions, he should always concentrate his attention on the sound and (then) his Chitta becomes absorbed in it.
42-43(a).Just as the bee drinking the honey (alone) does not care for the odour,so the Chitta which is always absorbed in sound, does not long for sensual objects, as it is bound by the sweet smell of Nada and has abandoned its flitting nature.
The serpent Chitta through listening to the Nada is entirely absorbed in it and becoming unconscious of everything concentrates itself on the sound.
The sound serves the purpose of a sharp goad to control the maddened elephant – Chitta which roves in the pleasure-garden of the sensual objects.
It serves the purpose of a snare for binding the deer – Chitta. It also serves the purpose of a shore to the ocean waves of Chitta.
The sound proceeding from Pranava which is Brahman is of the nature of effulgence; the mind becomes absorbed in it; that is the supreme seat of Vishnu.
The sound exists till there is the Akasic conception (Akasa-Sankalpa). Beyond this, is the (Asabda) soundless Para-Brahman which is Paramatman.
The mind exists so long as there is sound, but with its (sound's cessation) there is the state called Unmani of Manas (viz., the state of being above the mind).
49(a). This sound is absorbed in the Akshara (indestructible) and the soundless state is the supreme seat.
50(a). The mind which along with Prana (Vayu) has (its) Karmic affinities destroyed by the constant concentration upon Nada is absorbed in the unstained One. There is no doubt of it.
51(a). Many myriads of Nadas and many more of Bindus – (all) become absorbed in the Brahma-Pranava sound.
52(a). Being freed from all states and all thoughts whatever, the Yogin remains like one dead. He is a Mukta. There is no doubt about this.
After that, he does not at any time hear the sounds of conch or Dundubhi (large kettle drum)." Nada Bindu Upanishad
The beej/seed of all mantras is the Pranava, the OM. And the root power underlying all creation and reuniting it with Creator, is the power of Divine love which vibrates eternally beginning with the outer, grosser level of our physical being, the japa, and gradually being incorporated deeper within our minds and hearts until it becomes the Divine Light of our very own face.
ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਸੁ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਸੋਵੈ ॥
jaagath rehai s kabahu n sovai ||
One who remains awake, never sleeps.
ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥
theen thilok samaadhh palovai ||
The three qualities and the three worlds vanish, in the state of Samaadhi.
ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਲੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਹੈ ॥
beej manthra lai hiradhai rehai ||
He takes the Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, and keeps it in his heart.
ਮਨੂਆ ਉਲਟਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਮਹਿ ਗਹੈ ॥੫॥
manooaa oulatt sunn mehi gehai ||5||
Turning his mind away from the world, he focuses on the cosmic void of the absolute Lord. ||5||
ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਅਲੀਆ ਭਾਖੈ ॥
jaagath rehai n aleeaa bhaakhai ||
He remains awake, and he does not lie.
ਪਾਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਬਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖੈ ॥
paacho eindhree bas kar raakhai ||
He keeps the five sensory organs under his control.
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਖੀ ਰਾਖੈ ਚੀਤਿ ॥
gur kee saakhee raakhai cheeth ||
He cherishes in his consciousness the Guru's Teachings.
ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥੬॥
man than arapai kirasan pareeth ||6||
He dedicates his mind and body to the Lord's Love. ||6||
ਕਰ ਪਲਵ ਸਾਖਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
kar palav saakhaa beechaarae ||
He considers his hands to be the leaves and branches of the tree.
ਅਪਨਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰੇ ॥
apanaa janam n jooai haarae ||
He does not lose his life in the gamble.
ਅਸੁਰ ਨਦੀ ਕਾ ਬੰਧੈ ਮੂਲੁ ॥
asur nadhee kaa bandhhai mool ||
He plugs up the source of the river of evil tendencies.
ਪਛਿਮ ਫੇਰਿ ਚੜਾਵੈ ਸੂਰੁ ॥
pashhim faer charraavai soor ||
Turning away from the west, he makes the sun rise in the east.
ਅਜਰੁ ਜਰੈ ਸੁ ਨਿਝਰੁ ਝਰੈ ॥
ajar jarai s nijhar jharai ||
He bears the unbearable, and the drops trickle down within;
ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਸਿਉ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਕਰੈ ॥੭॥
jagannaathh sio gosatt karai ||7||
then, he speaks with the Lord of the world. ||7||
ਚਉਮੁਖ ਦੀਵਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਆਰ ॥
choumukh dheevaa joth dhuaar ||
The four-sided lamp illuminates the Tenth Gate.
ਪਲੂ ਅਨਤ ਮੂਲੁ ਬਿਚਕਾਰਿ ॥
paloo anath mool bichakaar ||
The Primal Lord is at the center of the countless leaves.
ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਲੇ ਆਪੇ ਰਹੈ ॥
sarab kalaa lae aapae rehai ||
He Himself abides there with all His powers.
ਮਨੁ ਮਾਣਕੁ ਰਤਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਹੈ ॥੮॥
man maanak rathanaa mehi guhai ||8||
He weaves the jewels into the pearl of the mind. ||8||
ਮਸਤਕਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਦੁਆਲੈ ਮਣੀ ॥
masathak padham dhuaalai manee ||
The lotus is at the forehead, and the jewels surround it.
ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
maahi niranjan thribhavan dhhanee ||
Within it is the Immaculate Lord, the Master of the three worlds.
ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲ ਬਾਜੇ ॥
panch sabadh niramaaeil baajae ||
The Panch Shabad, the five primal sounds, resound and vibrate their in their purity.
ਢੁਲਕੇ ਚਵਰ ਸੰਖ ਘਨ ਗਾਜੇ ॥
dtulakae chavar sankh ghan gaajae ||
The chauris - the fly brushes wave, and the conch shells blare like thunder.
ਦਲਿ ਮਲਿ ਦੈਤਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
dhal mal dhaithahu guramukh giaan ||
The Gurmukh tramples the demons underfoot with his spiritual wisdom.
ਬੇਣੀ ਜਾਚੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੯॥੧॥
baenee jaachai thaeraa naam ||9||1||
Baynee longs for Your Name, Lord. ||9||1||
~SGGS Ji ang 974
-
is the anhad shabad sargun or nirgun?
The acoustics of sound of the spoken word is sargun and not lasting. The chelawill speak the Divine Name. The sound uttered is audible to theears. This is sarguna, because sound is a form. Yet, contained withinthe sound, is a sound current vibration which acts on the vrittis, thethoughts within the mind, and opens the lotus blossom ofthe heart. Here the mind takes it's cleansing bath, becausethe NAAM washes our vasanas, the tendencies we have due to past karma and bad actions. A nameis just a representation of God. But the beej syllables of mantraempowered by a Satguru IS IN FACT the EKONKAR, Eko Brahman. It is the boat of mukti because it has the power to transform us.
"Katyayana stated that shabda "speech" is eternal (nitya), as is artha "meaning", and their mutual relation. According to Patanjali, sphoṭa ("meaning") is not identical with shabda, but rather its permanent aspect, while dhvani "sound, acoustics" is its ephemereal aspect. Om, or Aum, a sacred syllable of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism is considered to be the first resonating vibrational sound within an individual being. It also denotes the non-dualistic universe as a whole. In Buddhism, Om corresponds to the crown chakra and white light. Bhartrihari on the other hand held a shabda-advaita position, identifying shabda as indivisible, unifying cognition and linguistic performance, ultimately identical with Brahman." Shabdaਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦ ਹੋਤ ਝੁਨਕਾਰ ॥
anehadh sabadh hoth jhunakaar ||
The Unstruck Sound-current of the Shabad, the Word of God, resounds in that place,
ਜਿਹ ਪਉੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥੨॥
jih pourrhae prabh sree gopaal ||2||
where the Supreme Lord God abides. ||2||
~SGGS Ji ang 1162
ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਉ ॥
Bīj manṯar har kīrṯan gā▫o.
Sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and the Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra.
ਆਗੈ ਮਿਲੀ ਨਿਥਾਵੇ ਥਾਉ ॥
Āgai milī nithāve thā▫o.
Even the homeless find a home in the world hereafter.
ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥
Gur pūre kī cẖarṇī lāg.
Fall at the feet of the Perfect Guru;
ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਾ ਸੋਇਆ ਜਾਗੁ ॥੧॥
Janam janam kā so▫i▫ā jāg. ||1||
you have slept for so many incarnations - wake up! ||1||
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪੁ ਜਪਲਾ ॥
Har har jāp japlā.
Chant the Chant of the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਾਸੈ ਭਉਜਲੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਰਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Gur kirpā ṯe hirḏai vāsai bẖa▫ojal pār parlā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
By Guru's Grace, it shall be enshrined within your heart, and you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean.
~SGGS Ji ang 891
The unheard sound is not perceived with the sense organs. It is called "unstruck" because nothing from the created realm has made this sound. This unheard/imperceivable sound is emanating from the higher level of nirguna, because it arises out of the Nada Brahman and is in fact coming from the Pranava, the OM. And the OM is nirguna.
"According to particle physics, electrons are not particles all of the time, but sometimes behave like waves of light. The current consensus is that they are both wave-like and particle-like, as is all matter. In fact, in the world of quantum physics, it seems these elementary "particles" (including electrons) don't really exist at all. What does exist are relationships, correlations, tendencies to actualize from a multifaceted set of potentials. A quantum physicist might say that electrons, like all other subatomic particles, are described by a "probability density state." At this level it is strikingly evident that there may be no objective physical reality at all. What the scientific community once thought was there in the sub-atomic realm and what the educated world was taught to perceive as real simply does not exist.The new physics tells us that matter may actually be nothing more than a series of patterns out of focus and that subatomic "particles" aren't really made of energy, but simply are energy! The subatomic world of electrons, protons, and neutrons maythus be viewed as patterns of vibration within what Rupert Sheldrake calls a morphogenetic field, an organizing field that underlies a system's structure." Quantum Physics: Sensing Unbroken Wholeness
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥
Gurmukẖ ḏīsai barahm pasār.
The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥
Gurmukẖ ṯarai guṇī▫āʼn bisthār.
The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
Gurmukẖ nāḏ beḏ bīcẖār.
The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.
ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
Bin gur pūre gẖor anḏẖār. ||1||
Without the Perfect Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness. ||1||
ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
Mere man gur gur karaṯ saḏā sukẖ pā▫ī▫ai.
O my mind, calling on the Guru, eternal peace is found.
ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਿਓ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਅਪਣਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Gur upḏes har hirḏai vasi▫o sās girās apṇā kẖasam ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Following the Guru's Teachings, the Lord comes to dwell within the heart;
I meditate on my Lord and Master with every breath and morsel of food. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS JI ang 1270
What is the NAAD? Naad in Sanskrit is defined as sound, also as vibration and movement.
"The Uncreated Brahman is Unmoving (Nispanda); the created world is moving and anything that moves makes sound. Sound is the basic phenomenon by which man apprehends the world. All else such as touch and feel, form and color, taste, and smell are all complex sounds... Mantra Sastra states that Bija Mantras (Root Mantras sounding the Sanskrit letters) represent the Natural Names. The breath consisting of Inspiration and Expiration emits the sound of Prana-Bija Mantra, Hamsa. The out-breath sound is Ham and the in-breath sound is Sa." SoundSoham (so 'ham सो ऽहम्) is the Sanskrit for "I myself" or "It is I". Inextricably linked with hamsa[1] (हंस in Sanskrit), soham[2] is a voiceless mantra[3] and as such used notably on its own, in the meditation practice ajapa japa[4] and in the kriya practice shabda sanchalana[5]...Air is exhaled with the sound SA and inhaled with the sound HAM. Then reciting of the mantra HAMSA is continuous[78]—,The meaning of the phrase might be expressed as follows: "I" am obviously not this body because the physical constituents of the body are changing every moment. Ultimately, the body dies. Atman the soul or self never dies – it is "That". "That" is Absolute Reality. It is the witness of all, it is what the mind does through the body. This self is always on the path of progression, which according to Shaivistic thought is Chaitanya or consciousness. The Shiva Sutra speaks of 'Chaitanyam – Atma'. Consequently, Aham, myself, is Sah, that Self. This is called spiritual awareness." Soham
Listen to this powerful philosophical concept spoken above! The body dies, is corruptible and caught in time and under the delusion of Maya's web. But the soul within it is the SELF who never dies! WE ourselves are both niragun and saragun. WE are both the reflection of light chidabhasa and the eternal witness kutastha Caitanya which is never corruptible, but is eternal, is Brahman Consciousness. It is the LIGHT within you, Prakash!
ਊਹਾਂ ਸੂਰਜ ਨਾਹੀ ਚੰਦ ॥
oohaan sooraj naahee chandh ||
Neither the sun nor the moon are there,
ਆਦਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਕਰੈ ਅਨੰਦ ॥੫॥
aadh niranjan karai anandh ||5||
but the Primal Immaculate Lord celebrates there. ||5||
ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਿ ਪਿੰਡਿ ਸੋ ਜਾਨੁ ॥
so brehamandd pindd so jaan ||
Know that He is in the universe, and in the body as well.
ਮਾਨ ਸਰੋਵਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥
maan sarovar kar eisanaan ||
Take your cleansing bath in the Mansarovar Lake.
ਸੋਹੰ ਸੋ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਹੈ ਜਾਪ ॥
sohan so jaa ko hai jaap ||
Chant ""Sohang"" - ""He is me.""
~SGGS Ji ang 1162
"Om is imperishable. All name in this world is perishable, for it goes with the corresponding form. But this Universal Form is imperishable, this Universal Name also is imperishable, comprehends everything. Om ityetadaksharam: Om is Akshara, and Akshara is imperishable. Tasyopavyakhyanam, bhutam, bhavat, bhavishyaditisarvam Omkara eva; Yaccanyat trikalatitam tadapyomkara eva... All that was in the past, all that is now in the present, all that will be in the future, all this is Om, because Om has no past, present and future; the Universal has no time. What a grand description of Om is given in the Mandukya Upanishad!Whatever is in time, as past, present and future, is Om. Not merely this; that which is above time, also, is Om. Om has a twofold nature, the temporal and the eternal: it is Sabda and Sabdatita. It is constituted of A, U, M, representing all creation; but it has also a fourth nature which transcends these distinctions of A, U, M. It is called Amatra and Chaturtha-Bhava: The soundless form of Om is Amatra, the immeasurable,and it is not audible to the ears. This Amatra, or the immeasurable, eternal nature of Om is not a sound or even a mere vibration, but it is just existence, pure and simple, known as Satchidananda-Svarupa - Existence-Consciousness-Bliss." Swami Krishananda on Mandukya Upanishad
You see Swami ji's insightful explanation of the Mandukya Upanishad teaching that there are four arms of this reality of the Sound Current of the Primal Naad, also called in Vedas as EK AKSHARA OMKARA. The One word/sound which has created the creation. These are represented as the four arms of MahaVishnu, the All-pervading Light. The four arms represent the four states of consciousness, 3 of which are in time, material and of the three gunas. The fourth transcends that which is sargun, and is nirguna. That fourth is no longer sound which can be heard, nor slightest vibration which can be perceived. It is pureTruth, Consciousness, and Bliss beyond all perceivable forms, infinite,imperishable, undying, beyond Time. It is AKAAL. Akaal is an infinity which contains within itself even the finite, because what is finite contains the infinite self-effulgent Light covered only with the veil of illusion. The AKAAL is Itself, all-pervading the finite creation.
The All-pervading Light is present in a tiny ant, as per Gurbani. The finite cannot be a limit to the infinite, because the infinite has no limits. If there could be limits to His power, He would not be infinite. It's just that in guna form, the finite can't comprehend the infinite. But pervading within, is the eternal witness, Kutastha Caitanya, reflecting as if in a mirror the brilliant light which shines in our intellectual conscious perception of life and is the chidabhasa of the jeev. But what is being reflected that our minds are mere reflections of? It is the Parabrahm. It has always been the Parabrahm. It is nothing but Parabrahm. Existence itself is the illusion, without the veil of which the creation would not exist. Duality is the illusion, what is the true reality is undying Oneness and unity. There is no such thing as Durga. There is no such thing as Kalika. There is only the One without a second, because to postulate a million devis and a million devas is only to cast a reflection in millions of mirrors of One Eternally Shining Light.
ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਭੁਗਤਾ ॥
aapae karathaa aapae bhugathaa ||
| He Himself is the Creator, and He Himself is the Enjoyer.
ਆਪੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਮੁਕਤਾ ॥
aapae thripathaa aapae mukathaa ||
He Himself is satisfied, and He Himself is liberated.
~SGGS Ji ang 1035
ਏਕਾ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੇਖਾਲਿਆ ।
aykaa aykankaaru|ikhi daykhaaliaa|
By writing 1 (One) in the beginning, it has been shown that Ekankar,God, who subsumes all forms in Him is only one (and not two or three).
~Vaar 3 Pauri 15, line 1 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
"Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow; and without trees, we cannot make paper.
The cloud is essential for the paper to exist. If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either.
So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh, Interbeing
-
Shakti and Brahman are inseparable entities. Maya is not an Abrahamic concept like a Shaitan. It is delusive, not evil. The evil arises from within ourselves due to our ignorance in the net of delusion. But it is God Himself who cast this net. God Himself created the form of Maya, and directs and uses Maya according to His Lila. And IS in FACT MAHAMAYA. So this is a radically different concept that some dualistic Abrahamic or Zoroastrian struggle between elements of good and evil on a celestial level. The struggle over evil is front and center within us. We can't blame it on devatay or corruptions of the material universe. Maya is a force, like gravity. It serves a purpose to keep us inbondage to the earth, without which we wouldn't have embodiment or exist within the creation. The GOD has designed it this way!
ਸਦਾ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਆਪੇ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥
Saḏā mukaṯ āpe hai sacẖā āpe alakẖ lakẖāvaṇi▫ā. ||4||
The True Lord is liberated forever. The Unseen Lord causes Himself to be seen.
ਆਪੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪੇ ਛਾਇਆ ॥
Āpe mā▫i▫ā āpe cẖẖā▫i▫ā.
He Himself is Maya, and He Himself is the Illusion.
ਆਪੇ ਮੋਹੁ ਸਭੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
Āpe moh sabẖ jagaṯ upā▫i▫ā.
He Himself has generated emotional attachment throughout the entire universe.
ਆਪੇ ਗੁਣਦਾਤਾ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥
Āpe guṇḏāṯā guṇ gāvai āpe ākẖ suṇāvṇi▫ā. ||5||
He Himself is the Giver of Virtue; He Himself sings the Lord's Glorious Praises.
He chants them and causes them to be heard.
ਆਪੇ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪੇ ॥
Āpe kare karā▫e āpe.
He Himself acts, and causes others to act.
ਆਪੇ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪੇ ਆਪੇ ॥
Āpe thāp uthāpe āpe.
He Himself establishes and disestablishes.
ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
Ŧujẖ ṯe bāhar kacẖẖū na hovai ṯūʼn āpe kārai lāvaṇi▫ā. ||6||
Without You, nothing can be done. You Yourself have engaged all in their tasks. ||6||
ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪਿ ਜੀਵਾਏ ॥
Āpe māre āp jīvā▫e.
He Himself kills, and He Himself revives.
ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
Āpe mele mel milā▫e.
He Himself unites us, and unites us in Union with Himself.
~SGGS Ji ang 125
According to the philosophical concept of Gurbani teaching, God is somehow also Maya. How can this be explained as other than qualified non-dualism? that the Lord is both distinct and superior to His creation, including Maya and devatay; as well as equally all-pervading the creation which represents nothing less than mere aspects of One Divine Totality both physical and finite in temporary illusive form, and quite incomprehensibly beyond form and infinite.
ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਨਤ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਾਸਨ ॥
aapehi sunath aap hee jaasan ||
He Himself listens to His Own Praises.
ਆਪਨ ਆਪੁ ਆਪਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥
aapan aap aapehi oupaaeiou ||
He Himself created Himself.
ਆਪਹਿ ਬਾਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮਾਇਓ ॥
aapehi baap aap hee maaeiou ||
He is His Own Father, He is His Own Mother.
ਆਪਹਿ ਸੂਖਮ ਆਪਹਿ ਅਸਥੂਲਾ ॥
aapehi sookham aapehi asathhoolaa ||
He Himself is subtle and etheric; He Himself is manifest and obvious.
ਲਖੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਲਾ ॥੧॥
lakhee n jaaee naanak leelaa ||1||
O Nanak, His wondrous play cannot be understood. ||1||
~SGGS Ji ang 250
Visitor: Should all the slokas and mantras of the Devi Mahatmya be treated as three separate portions. Swamiji:This was done because they were addressed to Durga, Lakshmi and Saraswati. Were the chapters then spoken from different aspects? No.The three deities are the three stages of consciousness - tamas, rajas and sattva - reached in an ascending order.Visitor: Are the chapters then suitably written to tamas, rajas and sattva?
Swamiji:No, because they are all one. It is our incapacity to see all three as one that brings in the distinction. It is the same one guna that appears as tamas, rajas and sattva.
Visitor: Then the number of slokas in each portion has no meaning as so many mantras? The numbers vary, unlike in the ashtottara and sahasra - namavalis.
Swamiji: There is no significance in the number as such of the slokas. It is all one continuous mantra of prayer to one deity only. Swami Krishananda on Devi Mahatmya
According to Sanatana Dharma teaching and per interpretations of Devi Mahatmya itself, there is no difference between different aspects of Devis named, all are ONE Devi. There is no distinction as to Eka Brahman and Devi. Only ONE GOD is being praised in the Upanishad in very highly symbolic and meaningful imagery. Guru Sahibaan employed scholars of the highest order. And not merely any secular scholars, but Sanskrit scholars, holy men, and Mahants. Not everyone had access to the symbolism of Devi Mahatmya. But it is ridiculous to interpret modernly from Abrahamic, Western, or Dualistic ideologies distorting a qualified non-dual philosophy. The true meaning of Devi, She is Parabrahm in manifest form according to the hidden teachings of the Mandukya Upanishad where Devi Mahatmya is found.
also you have placed great emphasis on the sargun swaroop of gurbani.do you believe Guru Granth Sahib to be the physical representation of Guru's body ie the cover and the pages and the ink etc or the word itslef to be the spiritual representation of Guru?You will find the Guru's vaak written in ink and printed on pages and bound between the covers of a book. But the Guru's vaak is certainly not the pages and not the ink anymore than the well known saying, "if you say sugar is sweet and lick the word sugar hoping to taste sweetness, you won't find sweetness." So the point is, there is a form which this sargun swaroop takes. And that is the material form of something physically accessible to us as human beings. That form is this body, the angs of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj. The Shabad-Jyot contained within the vibration of the sounds and spiritual meanings of the Guru vak attune our atma to the Divine Paramatma. Sarguna is the vehicle through which the nirgun aspect can manifest.
And that is why our boat of mukti is not the pages of this printed book. HOWEVER, we absolutely do show reverence to the angs of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. KNOWING that the sargun swaroop of the Divine Presence is existing beyond the physicality as the sound current. And for this reason the Shabads, the Naam, the Gurbani kirtan, the paath we say, the Vaheguru Gurmantra are the boat of mukti and not the cover/pages. Nonetheless as WORD the DIVINE LIGHT has manifested in acomprehensible form in this world, absolutely. Just as absolutely entire Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj is GURU to bow your hairs to, cover respectfully, cremate when damaged. It is the body-form of a LIVING PRESENCE OF DIVINITY ITSELF.
Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in fact the LIVING PRESENCE OF GURU SAHIB. IT SHOULD NEVER BE SHOWN DISRESPECT OR TREATED AS A BOOK. And this is not a murthi. It is not a representation. It has transmission of Jyoti-Jyot and the Gurgaddhi. GURU GRANTH SAHIB CONTAINS THE BOAT OF MUKTI IN THE KALIYUG! No Vedas are the boat of Mukti. Because as true as Vedas may be, they are only books. You can set them on the ground. Truest Vedas are sung in perfect pronunciation. They TELL about mukti. But the boat of mukti is the Shabad-NAAM. Guru Granth Sahib is SATGURU!
-
chatanga1 Ji writes:
Harjas Kaur Ji. that was very interesting. tell me, do you view the feminine atributes of gurbani as representing the devi. specificaly where you have quoted "The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities." do you see this great mother as the tiger-riding devi?I wouldn't exactly define Gurbani as consisting of "feminine" or "masculine" aspects per se. Rather Gurbani has discussed the Divine in terms including both masculine and feminine qualities. And I believe this reflects an essential and underlying unity, a harmony which was intended in the duality world of the creation itself. God is not a division, but is the union of all dual aspects equally. So it can honestly be said that God is a Father, God is a Mother. But it can never truthfully be said that God is ONLY a Father, or God is ONLY a Mother, for example. The Abrahamic religions neuter the unity and create an artificial emphasis only on masculine characteristics of the Divine, and this serves as a psychological tension in the society to alienate and dishonor the feminine qualities as something "lesser." To speak of God as only masculine and male has the effect of devaluing the holiness of the feminine Divine qualities. Quite clearly Gurbani states that God is Mata and Pita, without question. We can't make the mistake to say the God is nirguna ONLY. What does Gurbani say? It says the God is niragun AND saragun.
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥
nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||
He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.
~SGGS Ji ang 250
On the other hand, equally clearly, our relationship to the Vaheguru, whether as man or woman, is as feminine souls to a Divine Bridegroom. This also is very holy imagery and cannot be tarnished with some artificial political correctness. My point only, in commenting on this article about Devi, was to state that in the Vedantic tradition the division between the devatay and the Parabrahm are not set in stone like a Zoroastrian division. Rather, they flow into and out of one another with a qualified dualism, so that philosophically it is equally correct to discuss the Parabrahm as separate from His creation, as equally as being represented by various definable aspects in the creation itself, because everything existing in the creation is only HE Himself.
Example of this philosophical concept Gurbani tuuks:
ਕੀਟ ਹਸਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਪੂਰ ਸਮਾਨੇ ॥ Kīt hasaṯ mėh pūr samāne. In the ant and in the elephant, He is totally pervading.
~SGGS Ji ang 252
And this philosophical concept is also expressed in this tuuk:
ਵਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਊਨ ਨ ਕਤਹੂ ਠਾਇ ॥ vāsuḏev sarbaṯar mai ūn na kaṯhū ṯẖā▫e.
The All-pervading Lord is in all places. There is no place where He does not exist.
~SGGS Ji ang 259
"Every explicit duality is an implicit unity." ~ Alan Watts
Okay, if some people want to totally invalidate this argument by making broad claim that these Gurbani tuuks don't mean what they say because they are out of context, fine. But I don't think doing an Akhand Paath of whole Gurbani is required to analyze philosophical concepts contained there. I don't believe quoting huge chunks of Gurbani will make the discussion any clearer. For purposes of a DISCUSSION about particular concepts, ideas, and teachings FROM Gurbani which different sampradayas WITHIN Gursikhi have held it is useful to isolate and clarify those. It will be easy to see what is out of context or not as the page citation is there and anyone can read entire shabad. But just making broad claim that Gurbani is out of context every single time I make reference to some tuuk or pauri is just silly.
So as I understand it, Gurbani is saying the Lord Himself is presence within His creation, even in the smallest ant and there is nowhere that the great immensity and infinity of the Lord is not existing. Now these tuuks were isolated because this is an extremely POWERFUL concept. This is NOT a concept of the Lord forever separate and distinct from His creation as taught in Abrahamic faiths and philosophies. Just these little tuuks are saying as much as entire Puranas! And that is ALL I have said.
That is really something amazing, another proof that Guru Sahibaan One Jyot is authentic Satguru. How rare to have such powerful insights of even Rshis in the few words of Guru. There is BEAUTY here! Extreme beauty, and incredible wisdom in even smallest vaks of Gurbani. And why is this? Because whole of Gurbani is Shabad mantara. Even the beej syllables of Guru Vakia have the POWER of GOD PRESENCE! If anyone is having physical sickness or troubles in their life, put Gurbani on your mind,on your heart, and on your lips.
Now, please look at the concept I tried to isolate here. It is a form of qualified Advaita, Achintya-Bheda Abheda, that the God is both dual and distinct and equally ONE with everything that exists. So when someone interprets the Gurbani without the philosophical Vedantic or qualified Advaitic context, I feel that interpretation cannot explain these tuuks and pauris and reconcile them with a God who is always "separate." So an entire philsophical school of thought has been represented in these small tuuks.
I do not believe it will be possible for anyone to refute and say this is not true teaching, or that it is taken out of context, even if you quote the whole Gurbani. Because the philosophical point is sound. MOREOVER, it is the truth underlying modern discoveries in physics. So it isn't just a philosophical speculation, there is an underlying mathematical elegance to the concept of qualified non-dualism. Of course, physics doesn't postulate such a concept as God. Nonetheless,the material universe IS understood by modern physicists as being both materiality (sarguna) which is condensed energy encapsulated into form,and pure energy which extends beyond time and space (nirguna) and even that such has a consciousness! There is a dual nature underlying the heart of all things. So there are in fact two distinct perceptions which could accurately describe the human experience. We ARE separate and distinct. And we ARE a unified ONENESS with all that is on an energetic level. This goes to the very heart of wave-particle duality.
Omnia vivunt, omnia inter se conexa
"Everything is alive; everything is interconnected." ~ Cicero
"A human being is a part of the whole, called by us Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures
and the whole nature in its beauty."~ Albert Einstein
And this philosophical point is so important,because if we keep describing the smaller spiritual Lights manifest in the world, such as devatay and avtaray as "lesser" and "separate" we are correct on one level. But we are incorrect philosophically by failing to incorporate from the non-dualism aspect. I do not believe Sikhi is a dualism like Zoroastrianism. I believe a strict and literal dualism is an erroneous interpretation and ignores Advaitic elements of nondualism. This fundamentally alters the meaning of a concept of merging with the Divine, and even changes the concept of mukti. The ULTIMATE is Mahasamadhi, final merging and losing the individual"I"ness. So on one level the devatay are separate, consist of the three gunas, etc, caught in time, finite, transient, deluded by Maya's veil and therefore unable to liberate anyone, let alone themselves.
HOWEVER,
on another level philosophically, all the lights are ONE, and the infinity reaches out to the world infinitely in various perceivable forms. It's not that 330 crore compete with some designated super God in a celestial one-upmanship. But that 330 crore are ONE. I do not believe, nor have I ever disputed that pujas to devatay are not a path to mukti! So why are people making this artificial argument when I have said no such thing? I believe with conviction that Naama Jap, submission to a Satguru, living the daily discipline (sadhana) of a Satguru, having deeksha/initiation is the ONLY MEANS OF MUKTI!
And this is corroborated in Hindu scriptures! What is at fault here is the ERRONEOUS MISINTERPRETATION OF HINDU RELIGION, and then blaming the perceived faults of the erroneous misrepresentation as some fault of what I'm saying. Don't misrepresent my own beliefs by tacking them on to misinformed ideas about Hinduism and the various Hindu philosophies. What is puja? What makes it sinful? Is that the Christianized indoctrination that idol worship of false demonic gods is against the Abrahamic god? Because that is not Gurbani teaching. Gurbani teaching is filled with worship and praise of the Divine through the sargun NAAMS of devatay and avataray. But the boat of mukti, is Nama Jap. Of this there has never been dispute. What is problem with aarti? If the heavens and planets do aarti, what's the harm if a Hindu family does aarti in reverential awareness of the power of creation and the magnificence of the Divine?
"He is one, the lord and innermost Self of all; of one form, he makes of himself many forms. To him who sees the Self revealed in his own heart belongs eternal bliss–to none else, to none else!" ~Katha Upanishad 2:2:12
If Radharani is Krishna's Hladini shakti, then Krishnas very ability to manifest spiritual ecstacy belongs to the feminine shakti aspect of His own nature. Just as His power of yogmaya comes from His aspect as Adi-Pakriti. This is teaching us that Bhagavan is a Totality reflected in emanations or aspects. But all the aspects are ONE. It doesn't matter if you call as masculine or feminine, ultimately it is all the same power from the same source. Just remember the answer to the seeming contradiction is achintya bheda abheda, "inconceivable Oneness and difference." The God is inconceivabably One and infinitely distinct. The God is all-pervading every being of His creation. Everything is ultimately He. He is the full Reality. Devi and Bhagavan are ONE.
-
Oh was Krishan fighting against Adharm with Gopis in water?
Stories are stories and Dhur Ki Bani is Ilahi Bani.
Bhagavan Krishna is never figting with gopis.
Gopala, the Lord and Protector of all the living beings in all the universes, is in love with His creation. The gopis represent individual atmas who are having a love affair with their Divine Beloved, they are true bhaktas, as should we all be. That is what is taking place in the water. And it is gopi Radha who so transcends by Her unswerving devotion, as to merge and become One with the Lover Himself. And that is what is meant by RadhaKrishna, that the Divine Beloved and the Lover are ONE.
jw kY pRyim pdwrQu pweIAY qau crxI icqu lweIAY ]
jaa kai paraym padaarath paa-ee-ai ta-o charnee chit laa-ee-ai.
By His Love, true wealth is obtained; link your consciousness to His lotus feet.
shu khY so kIjY qnu mno dIjY AYsw prmlu lweIAY ]
saho kahai so keejai tan mano deejai aisaa parmal laa-ee-ai.
As your Husband Lord directs, so you must act; surrender your body and mind to Him, and apply this perfume to yourself.
eyv khih sohwgxI BYxy ienI bwqI shu pweIAY ]3]
ayv kaheh sohaaganee bhainay inee baatee saho paa-ee-ai. ||3||
So speaks the happy soul-bride, O sister; in this way, the Husband Lord is obtained. ||3||
Awpu gvweIAY qw shu pweIAY Aauru kYsI cqurweI ]
aap gavaa-ee-ai taa saho paa-ee-ai a-or kaisee chaturaa-ee.
Give up your selfhood, and so obtain your Husband Lord; what other clever tricks are of any use?
shu ndir kir dyKY so idnu lyKY kwmix nau iniD pweI ]
saho nadar kar daykhai so din laykhai kaaman na-o niDh paa-ee.
When the Husband Lord looks upon the soul-bride with His Gracious Glance, that day is historic - the bride obtains the nine treasures.
Awpxy kMq ipAwrI sw sohwgix nwnk sw sBrweI ]
aapnay kant pi-aaree saa sohagan naanak saa sabhraa-ee.
She who is loved by her Husband Lord, is the true soul-bride; O Nanak, she is the queen of all.
AYsy rMig rwqI shj kI mwqI Aihinis Bwie smwxI ]
aisay rang raatee sahj kee maatee ahinis bhaa-ay samaanee.
Thus she is imbued with His Love, intoxicated with delight; day and night, she is absorbed in His Love.
suMdir swie srUp ibcKix khIAY sw isAwxI ]4]2]4]
sundar saa-ay saroop bichkhan kahee-ai saa si-aanee. ||4||2||4||
She is beautiful, glorious and brilliant; she is known as truly wise. ||4||2||4||
~Shabad Hazaray
-
It is actually an Abrahamic philosophical interpolation which posits "futility" with worship of the Divine as a lesser form or mere creation. And I will show you what I mean.This seems to contradict Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with regards thefutility of Shakta worship and Sri Dasam Granth which posits Shakti asa creation of Akal. Would you agree?Our boat of mukti is the NAAM. What is NAAM? It is not nirguna, because it can be perceived and has the swaroop of vakia. It can be spoken, and hence it exists in the material world. We know that the NAAM is only an aspect of the nirgun Divinity because Japji Sahib tells us the Guru is the sound current of the Primal Nada. And all sound comes from the Pranava, which is the sound current of the Naad vibrating from the nirgun imperceivable realm as anehad shabad, into the perceivable world of form as Guru Vak, Shabad, kirtan and NAAM.
No one makes the mistake of thinking NAAM is separate from the nirgun Divine simply because it has sargun attributes which are perceivable. It is precisely the perceivable aspects which make it a boat for us to grasp and be rescued by. Without having any form at all, how could anyone praise the AKAAL? With what word? With what thought? With what perception? You can't. AKAAL is simply beyond us. And so we require the instrumentality of a Satguru who knows the God to make manifest to us the shabad and NAAM. All of these instrumentalities: Guru, Vak, Shabad, NAAM, vibrating sound current, kirtan of Lord's praise are perceivable within the physical realm, and are therefore, Sargun roop.
We don't condemn the sargun roop of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We don't condemn the physical vak of the shabad, kirtan and NAAM. We have never condemned or discredited the physical embodiment of the Guru's living forms. Yet everyone seems to be having an issue with Devi.
Devi's roop is symbolic. It contains truth on more than one level of perception. To belittle and discredit Devi's roop and purpose is to discredit the God you can't perceive by invalidating the concepts which make that incomprehensible power of the nirguna physical and literal for our benefit. Moreover it discredits the incredible brahmgyaan of Guru Sahib who used Devi's roop to teach spiritual concepts about the Divine, Divine Justice, and kurbani to the Khalsa. If Guruji used Devi to explain aspects of the Divinity, who are we to throw out those concepts and invalidate them as useless to us nowadays? Of course, anyone is entitled to do so. I have never said anyone needs to agree with my opinion. But you people are not understanding Devi. First try to understand the meaning of those concepts, and then analyze whether you can throw them out and still have a valid Guru teaching.
The issue with people who have not studied Vedanta is that they don't understand the philosophical concepts and get stuck in something like "greater than" and "lesser than."
Let's start with this. The God is the God, and a worm is a worm. God is greater and worm is lesser. This is fact. But we exist in a world of duality, where appearances aren't always what they seem. On another level of reality, it is equally true that the God exists pervading inside the worm. Many philosophers have tried to explain these concepts in a comprehensible way. Some have called as particles of light existing within all beings. Some have called as souls existing within all beings. Some have called energy or shakti existing within all beings. But the point is, on another level of reality, it is equally true that the worm and the God are one. From that perspective, our egotistical arrogance of something like caste, or wealth, or youth, or power fades from us, because even the flowers sing His praises. The whole point of attaining a consciousness like turiya is to be freed from the bondages of ego-based perceptions such as "yours" and "mine," "greater" and "lesser," "value" and "devalue."
God is simply beyond petty egotism of who is dusting His floors and beneath His feet and who is His very own Divine Beloved Oneness. Only concepts such as who is greater and who is lesser occupy the mentalities of judgmental manmukhs whose thoughts are themselves very often far from the God's praise. When Guru Ji is shown in aspect of pujari, it is not to denote inferiority or any supremacy of Devi. It is to denote that the physicality of the Guru's embodied form is always worshipping the Divine, as a teaching to us.
ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ ॥੪॥੫॥
naanak dhaas eihai sukh maagai mo ko kar santhan kee dhhoorae ||4||5||
Nanak, Your slave, begs for this happiness: let me be the dust of the feet of the Saints. ||4||5||
~SGGS Ji ang 13
Nanak Das? If we had an authentic concept of the incredible purity of nirmata, we could understand that the greatest glory is contained within the lowest and least, and the most corrupted arrogance is polluting the very highest. And so Guruji has taught us even the devatay are corrupted in sansaara. So the greatest attainment of a spiritual Master is to be able to bow down and not be inwardly disturbed by kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar. But such displays of humility offend the ego of a proud man. And for that reason, the sadhana of performing namaskaram is a spiritual treatment for the ego-consciousness. To bow down, not to the individual, or even a human form, or an idol but the Divine Light shining through all these false appearances, as recognizing the Holy Presence all-pervading all things; that is to bring consciousness to awareness of God. And that is why such displays of humility are actually a profound and powerful spiritual practice, be it to sant, to murthi, to parents, to an ideal. Is there anyplace God is not pervading? Just as moving Guruji's feet away from Mecca only moved Mecca. We have lost the understanding in our condemnation of outward forms of practice. If someone is ignorant and hypocritical in his practices, that's for God and Guru to judge. Why do we condemn? If Gurbani chastises the hypocritical worship of offering living flowers and stems and leaves which contain the all-pervading consciousness of the Divine to a dead stone, then we see that and don't have to do it. But understand that all symbolism of murthis and devatay have an underlying spiritual meaning which is not worthless or worthy to offend and Guruji did not so offend. It was a Hindu Vaishnav Raam Nami bhagat named Kabir Ji whose tuuks of Gurbani corrected the hypocritical sacrificing of living flowers to stone murthis. If we lose humility in the process of self-righteous condemnation of another person's spiritual understanding, it does not make us holy, and in fact causes us to fall down lower. Devi has a valid place in the purataan heritage of Guru Khalsa Panth, and nothing, and no one's ignorance can ever take that away.
ਸਾਧੂ ਕੀ ਹੋਹੁ ਰੇਣੁਕਾ ਅਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ॥
saadhhoo kee hohu raenukaa apanaa aap thiaag ||
Become the dust of the Saints; renounce your selfishness and conceit.
ਉਪਾਵ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਸਗਲ ਛਡਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥
oupaav siaanap sagal shhadd gur kee charanee laag ||
Give up all your schemes and your clever mental tricks, and fall at the Feet of the Guru.
~SGGS Ji ang 45
Guru Nanak Dev Ji is teaching from His amazing piare and amazing nirmata and absolute spiritual Mastery. Ordinary men could never describe themselves in such terms as being a mere "dust" and "slave" without prickling discomfort of dukh to the ego. It wounds the pride! Imagine the Satcha Patshah describing Himself in terms of mere "das." Then you will undertand why we are wrong trying to define the Divine Totality and His individually described spiritual qualities or powers in terms of "lesser" and "greater" as completely erroneous and only evidence of our bondage to duality concepts. Only in the created sansaar is there a duality consciousness to perceive the God in parts and not as a wholeness. So we will say "God is a tail!" or "God is a neck!" or "God is a trunk" Some people actually do worship the God as Muruga, or the God as Ganapati, or the God as Lord Shiva. But human beings cannot perceive the whole elephant of the nirguna. And so, in reality, there is a defect in all of our worship, in all of our human perceptions of God. To think a concept of nirguna is not to have a perception of the imperceptible. Only by merging, can He Himself, know Himself. It doesn't matter if you say you worship only the nirguna, because you can't even describe or perceive what you claim to worship. And this is why Guru says all these Naams are Naams of the Divine. It doesn't matter what name you call it, or what aspect or perception you have of the Divine, the Divine will always be beyond you.
ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael ||
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.
~SGGS Ji ang 21
The God is so great, He is even a slave, He is even conscious in a worm, He is even embodied as a human Guru able to be tortured and murdered while yet always existing in untouchable, undying samadhi. This is a lesson to reach us, that we too, as sparks of the Divine Fire can rise so high as to become ONE and UNITED with the Totality. And that is the state we call, mukti. The jeevan mukta can be tortured but is beyond pain. So he can rejoice even in suffering.
Just talking about the nirgun overlooks Gurbani teaching that the Divine is both nirgun AND sargun. It nowhere says He is nirgun only. When we say this, we are philosophically wrong. If you want to be intellectually honest and say the God is nirgun only, you must eliminate Satguru, Shabad, Naam, and even Gurbani from the equation. Because without these sargun roops which the Divine Totality imperceivable nirguna has manifested, we have ZERO boat of mukti. That's the problem with literalism. And if we accept that the Divine Nirguna also manifests His Light and Power in form, then why do we care whether that form taken is a worm, or a bird, or air, or an atma, or an avataara, or a Human form of born Satguru, or Brahma-Shiva-Vishnu, or a head-linga-feet, or the love of Divine Mother Devi with uncut kes who rides the power of a lion/Singh and is shastardhari to save Her children from unjust oppression? If the Divine is CONSCIOUSNESS and CONSCIOUSNESS itself is ALL-PERVADING every living thing, why do we try to limit the infinite forms the Divine Consciousness appears as? It is only an appearance. The totality and fullness of the Truth is BEYOND FORM. According to Advaita philosophy, all this is God and there is nothing that is not God. Nothing exists which is beyond the pre-existing immortal Divine Presence and Consciousness. God is an infinity, and the infinity encapsulates, incorporates and subsumes the finite within it.
ਫਿਰਿ ਬਾਬਾ ਗਇਆ ਬਗਦਾਦਿ ਨੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜਾਇ ਕੀਆ ਅਸਥਾਨਾ ।
dhiri baabaa gaiaa bagadaadi no baahari jaai keeaa asadaanaa|
From Mecca Baba went to Baghdad and stayed outside the city.
ਇਕੁ ਬਾਬਾ ਅਕਾਲ ਰੁਪੂ ਦੂਜਾ ਰਬਾਬੀ ਮਰਦਾਨਾ ।
iku baabaa akaal rupoo doojaa rabaabee maradaanaa|
Firstly, Baba himself was in the form of Timeless and secondly, he had his companion Mardana, the rebeck player.
ਦਿਤੀ ਬਾਂਗਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਿ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਨਿ ਹੋਆ ਜਹਾਨਾ ।
ditee baangi nivaaji kari sunni samaani hoaa jahaanaa|
For namaz (in his own style), Baba gave call, listening to which the whole world went into absolute silence.
ਸੁੰਨ ਮੁੰਨਿ ਨਗਰੀ ਭਈ ਦੇਖਿ ਪੀਰ ਭਇਆ ਹੈਰਾਨਾ ।
sunn munni nagaree bhaee daykhi peer bhaiaa hairaanaa|
The whole city became quiet and lo! to behold it, the pir also got wonderstruck.
ਵੇਖੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਲਗਾਇ ਕਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਫਕੀਰੁ ਵਡਾ ਮਸਤਾਨਾ ।
vaykhai dhiaanu|agaai kari iku dhakeeru vadaa masataanaa|
Observing minutely he found (in the form of Baba Nanak) an exhilarated fakir.
ਪੁਛਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਕੈ ਦਸਤਗੀਰ ਕਉਣ ਫਕੀਰੁ ਕਿਸਕਾ ਘਰਿਆਨਾ
puchhiaa dhiri kai dasatageer kaun dhakeeru kisakaa ghariaanaa
Pir Dastegir asked him, which category of fakir you belong to and what is your parentage.
ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇਆ ਰਬੁ ਫਕੀਰੁ ਇਕੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ।
naanak kali vichi aaiaa rabu dhakeeru iko pahichaanaa|
(Mardana told) He is Nanak, who has come into kaliyug, and, he recognizes God and His fakirs as one.
ਧਰਤਿ ਆਕਾਸ ਚਹੂ ਦਿਸਿ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੩੫॥
dharati aakaas chahoo disi jaanaa ॥35॥
He is known in all the directions besides earth and sky.
~Vaar 1 Pauri 35 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
It is famously described among Vaishnava sampradayas that there are many varied levels and manifestations of the Divine Light and Consciousness. Not all the devatay are equal in the light and power they manifest. Some are "lesser" and "greater" yet, the Divine Himself is not lesser to manifest in part, as some particular aspect for some particular reason. That is the power of a concept of qualified non-dualism known as Achintya Bheda Abheda, meaning: "inconceivable Oneness AND difference." This philosophy teaches that God is both a separate Divine Beloved greater than His creation and EQUALLY that entire creation is only He, the All-pervading Oneness.
ਨਾ ਵੇਛੋੜਿਆ ਵਿਛੁੜੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
naa vaeshhorriaa vishhurrai sabh mehi rehiaa samaae ||
In separation, He is not separated from us; He is pervading and permeating amongst all.
~SGGS Ji ang 46
And always, despite the limitations of the material sansaar, even our own intellect is like a mirror, called the "chidabhasa" meaning heart-mind light reflection. When we intellectualize, we have a consciousness able to perceive and interact BECAUSE there is a pre-existing, underlying LIGHT WHICH IS DIVINE WITHIN US. But it only exists, and only reflects a greater LIGHT. But on another level of reality, Light is only Light, it can never be less than or greater than, it simply is LIGHT. When we reflect on the point between the eyebrows, the witness resides there, known as the Kutastha Caitanya, Brahman consciousness, or God-consciousness. When we are caught in the ego-mind, we are the limited jeev, and our consciousness is mere reflection of glorious Light. But the glorious Light is our true being. When the jeev is surrendered, our atma merges into the Paramatma, and there is only LIGHT and no more individual self. In like manner the various Lights and powers and excellencies of the devatay in sansaara will also at some future time, merge back into the wholeness from whence they sprang. That is the eternal cycle of creation and dissolution.
ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੋ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੮॥੬॥
naanak eaeko rav rehiaa dhoojaa avar n koe ||8||6||
O Nanak, the One is pervading everywhere; there is no other at all. ||8||6||
~SGGS Ji ang 57
ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥
sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas ||
They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.
~SGGS Ji ang 20
DEVI is the Light of God manifesting as Shastars to give the us the grace to offer kurbani for Dharma, equally as one offers his head and submits his ego to God and Guru for the sake of justice, truth, peace, and all the qualities which contain the God infinitely. On another level of reality all the fullness of the Divine Totality which is Nirguna manifests as the energy/shakti of the sarbloh shastars and vibrates the sound current and light of Divine Presence in the hands of the sant-sipahi. If you take apart the Devi, you would have to take apart all the qualities of the Khalsa who are the Divine soulbrides of the undying Oneness who is Justice and Peace, Truth and Power.
Gurbani says:
ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤ ਸਗਲ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਮਇਆ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਤੇਰੀ ਦੋਹੀ ॥੧॥
siv siv karath sagal kar jorehi sarab maeiaa thaakur thaeree dhohee ||1||
Everyone calls upon You with their palms pressed together, saying, ""Shiva, Shiva"".
O Merciful Lord and Master, everyone cries out for Your Help.
~SGGS Ji ang 207
Yet we will deny that Shiva is Naam of the Divine Lord? We will deny that Shakti Devi is Herself an emanation of Lord Shiva and therefore Himself in another aspect? Doesn't this contradict Gurbani?
Gurbani says:
ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
eaekaa maaee jugath viaaee thin chaelae paravaan ||
The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities.
~SGGS Ji ang 7
ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
so kio visarai maeree maae ||
How can I forget Him, O my mother?
~SGGS Ji ang 9
ਇਕੋ ਭਾਈ ਮਿਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਇਕੋ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ॥
eiko bhaaee mith eik eiko maath pithaa ||
The One is my Brother, the One is my Friend. The One is my Mother and Father.
~SGGS Ji ang 45
ਅਚਰਜ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੋ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੇਲਾਇਆ ਮਾਇ ॥੧॥
acharaj roop niranjano gur maelaaeiaa maae ||1||
Wondrous is the Form of the Immaculate One. Through the Guru, I have met Him, O my mother!
~SGGS Ji ang 46
I think what we have is not a problem with Devi, but just a failure of the imagination. We have put God in a little box, and if any concept comes to us that doesn't reflect that boxiness, we throw a fit and try to hack off all it's limbs to force it into that box.
But that mentality is utterly the opposite of turiya which is freed from the bondages of such limited judgements and fear-based intolerant failure of imagination. Moreover, turiya is freed from the endless disrespecting of the Divine feminine which has led to so much degradation of the actual feminine throughout the world. If more men were courageous enough to embrace their motherly energies and be willing to sacrifice themselves protectively for others like a mother for her beloved children, and with all the beauty and holiness of female qualities freed from corruption, we could have a balance of male and female, which reflects the perfection and undivided unity of God.
Isn't it true that even Guru Sahibaan have described the TRUE POWER OF THE DIVINE in terms of feminine shakti and not as masculine force! And that is because deadly force without the compassionate heart and intention of a mother for her children is simply destructive and not corrective. There is a great spiritual lesson in this imagery, and in why Bhadrakali is considered to be the embodiment of Divine Love and why Radha is considered the hladini shakti, the very heart and soul of Bhagavan Krishna. Shakti Devi as roop of Mahamaya is the power AND the Divine love of a Mother. It is the aspect of protection of the world and not the annihilation of it that is represented here, although it comes just near to annihilation because that's the force demanded to stop the injustices and right the balance of Dharma once again. The Mother Herself becomes terrifying aspect, to be a terror to the terrorists of the world, but it is out of love and protection. You ignore that element, and the power you wield only sways toward the self-serving demonic.
That is the power of the psychological symbolism. Alter that, and you change the course of the future. The Khalsa will cease their dance with the Divine Beloved as soulbrides who act as fatherly AND motherly protectors of a suffering world. Pure force with masculine energies unbalanced by unity with the Divine feminine becomes just another demonic oppression and unloving torture of the world. Divine Mother cherishes Her children. God has come to us in the unity of a Father AND a Mother. We are supposed to be a Father and a Mother to this world. THAT is a true Khalsa. That is the power, meaning and importance of Adi Shakti, Sarabloh Shakti, Mata Shakti.
ਸੋ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜ ਭਗਵੰਤੈ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
So bẖag▫uṯī jo bẖagvanṯai jāṇai.
One who knows the Benevolent Lord God is the true devotee of Bhagaautee.
~SGGS Ji ang 88
ਚਾਰੇ ਦੀਵੇ ਚਹੁ ਹਥਿ ਦੀਏ ਏਕਾ ਏਕਾ ਵਾਰੀ ॥੧॥
Cẖāre ḏīve cẖahu hath ḏī▫e ekā ekā vārī. ||1||
He placed the four lamps, one by one, into the hands of the four ages. ||1||
ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਮਾਧੌ ਐਸੀ ਸਕਤਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Miharvān maḏẖusūḏan māḏẖou aisī sakaṯ ṯumĥārī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
O Merciful Lord, Destroyer of demons, Lord of Lakshmi, such is Your Power - Your Shakti. ||1||Pause||
ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਲਸਕਰੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥
Gẖar gẖar laskar pāvak ṯerā ḏẖaram kare sikḏārī.
Your army is the fire in the home of each and every heart. And Dharma - righteous living is the ruling chieftain.
~SGGS Ji ang 1190
ਨਾਰਦ ਸਾਰਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਖਵਾਸੀ ॥
naaradh saaradh karehi khavaasee ||
Naarada the sage, and Shaarada the goddess of knowledge, serve the Lord.
ਪਾਸਿ ਬੈਠੀ ਬੀਬੀ ਕਵਲਾ ਦਾਸੀ ॥੨॥
paas baithee beebee kavalaa dhaasee ||2||
The goddess Lakhshmi sits by Him as His slave.
ਕੰਠੇ ਮਾਲਾ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਾਮੁ ॥
kanthae maalaa jihavaa raam ||
The mala is around my neck, and the Lord's Name is upon my tongue.
ਸਹੰਸ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਕਰਉ ਸਲਾਮੁ ॥੩॥
sehans naam lai lai karo salaam ||3||
I repeat the Naam, the Name of the Lord, a thousand times, and bow in reverence to Him.
ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥
kehath kabeer raam gun gaavo ||
Says Kabeer, I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord;
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਊ ਸਮਝਾਵਉ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩॥
hindhoo thurak dhooo samajhaavo ||4||4||13||
I teach both Hindus and Muslims.
~SGGS Ji ang 479
-
the question was asked,
"This lady is nowhere on sikh flag. Show us."And it was answered. Whether or not you believe those Battle standards are meaningless crap is your business. But I am not full of crap to point out a historical reality.
"Some sikh women are bat shit crazy, but Harjas really takes the biscuit."Personal attacks and flaming doesnt add to any debate.
"*YAWN* Go away Harjas, your full of crap."This is a HINDU section. Why should I go away? Oh, I suppose you want only anti-Hindus to post abusive anti-Hindu insults on your fake "Hindu" section? What a joke.
"Sikhs do not believe in any such eight armed deity and Dasam granth strongly denounces deities.Read it to know that."Why does Gurbani claim that the Lord has four-arms then? What is a "deity" exactly? Do you even know?
"Harjas all you write is a trash far from truth."It may not be a version of the truth which you personally accept. But it is far from trash, and it has more historical credibility than you realize.
harjas kaur ji, you write :"Sikhs were fighting the Mughal rulers and their Hindu collaborators who fought on behalf of Mughal occupation because they were bought with power, money and jagirs"
"Did our Guru's take birth to destroy or harm Islam?
and you seem to think that all converts to islam were through force. can you clarify? please."
Our Guru's took birth to protect Hindu Dharm from forced conversions by the Mughal occupation. Islam, I personally have no problem with. But we are not talking about ISLAM. We are talking about MUGHAL's who brought a version of Islam to Hindustan which was genocidal. Gurbani talks about Islam as bringing a war, grievance and rapes to Hindustan. Gurbani talks about Islam being evidence of the Kaliyuga.
The Guru's and no dharmic person has any right to "harm or destroy" Islam. The purpose was to protect right of people to be free from military oppression and to maintain cultural and religious traditions. That radical jihadi extremist version of Islam was what was being opposed. The holy Islam of saints was never opposed.
No. Not ALL converts to Islam were converted through force. But you are dishonest if you look at a hundreds of years brutal occupation of Hindustan by Mughal invaders, shaheedi of 2 forms of Guru and think that Hindustani's were converting WITHOUT force. Else are the stories untrue that Sikh women wore the body pieces of their children garlanded around their necks to compel their conversions and punish their refusals? Is it untrue that Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji was called the blanket of protection of the Hindus who gave his life to defend the tilak and janeo?
Anyways, this entire thread is a rude insult against Hindu scriptures and Hindu women. Why anyone posts here without even addressing that first and only to argue is showing the support for rude and abusive talk to anyone pro-Hindu on this forum. You can all call me anything you like, and already have. But the truth is still the truth. You don't silence it by flaming someone with a different opinion. But I certainly have lost all respect for any of you.
-
Singh2 writes:
"Most of above is crap."This is a negative pre-judgment based on assumptions. Would you go into a college class with this kind of attitude? How can you learn anything if you think you know it all? If I am wrong, is my opinion crap because you don't share it? And what if I prove that I am right in these statments? Does that pit my knowledge against you personally? No. But you start out close-minded and will probably end up hostile to what is in fact historical truth.
This lady is nowhere on sikh flag. Show us.You do realize, regardless of how you interpret, that Murthi's were kept in Harimandir Sahib until 1906. Whether you believe as sanatani's do that this was always a Sikh practice, or as Tat Khalsas that it reflects changes due to the leadership of Mahants is interpretation. But the FACT remains that murthis have been a part of accepted Sikh practice at least since the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh.
So you are objecting to this reference to a Sikh Battle standard from the Anglo Sikh wars, kept in Museum in UK and calling as crap. Unfortunately for you, I have already posted this link on this forum. What should I gain by lying? I'm completely sincere. It is only our interpretations of Sikhi which are different. Here is the link veer ji.
Sikh Battle Standards at Lichfield Cathedral, UK
You will see the Sikh Battle Standard from Anglo-Sikh Wars with image of Chandi/Durga on it. There is also one with image of Muruga on it in His aspect as Leader of the heavenly warriors. Muruga rides a peacock and is one of Shivaji's sons. These were SIKH Battle standards. This is PART of the historical record that Sikhs were united with Hindus along with other evidence such as marginalized writings such as Janam Sakhis and Gur Bilas. I don't say you have to accept this is "right" or even "correct." I'm saying, it's part of established history. Interpret it how you want, but don't deny it. And this is the reason why there are sanatan sects within Sikhi. You can't assassinate every baba head and exterminate every sanatan Sikh sampraday to hide that fact. That's just stupid. Have intelligent knowledge of history at least without the endless rejecting denials and hatred.
How can you ever explain a Baba Sri Chand, oldest son of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Yogi Master founder of Udasi Samprada? How can you explain if this was rejected that Baba Gurditta Ji, oldest son of Guru Hargobind became the next leader of Udasis? Can you explain why Guru Ram Das wiped the dust of feet of Baba Sri Chand Ji with His own dhari if Udasis were rejected and not a sampraday within historical Sikhi? Can anyone deny sanatan character of Udasi sampraday or incredible involvement of Sikh Guru's families within it even as Udasi Mahants were established caretakers of all historical Sikh shrines from the time of Guru Ram Das Sahib Ji? Why would there even be this historical connection?
Sanatan Sikhism, even if you don't accept is the original Sikhi, is older than the intolerant Tat Khalsa interpretation which preceded it. Sanatan Sikhism has historical footprints all over Sikh religion, including in Gurbani tuuks. We believe it is original Sikhism even if you do not. Are sanatan Sikhs "evil" because they have a different interpretation which matches the historical heritage? Who are the Taliban mentalities calling as "evil" and "anti-Sikh?" They have no ownership of Sikhism. They don't even have knowledgeable understanding of the sanatan concepts in Sikh history. Such fools cannot be the self-proclaimed "representatives of Sikhi." Who dares to call even traditional sampradays as "enemies of Sikhism?" Or as "false?" Who are themselves probably the most hypocritical, irreligious persons whose mentalities reflect the pornographic corruptions they accuse. Gurbani says become the dust of the feet of sants. Gurbani says wonderful are the Vedas. Nowhere does Gurbani say assassinate as fake all the sant babas and trash as pornographic the Vedas.
Whoever is saying such, in contradiction to Gurbani teaching, those are the "fake" Sikhs and "anti-Sikhism."
She is neither called sarbloh nor sword. She is shown as a fighter against Demons.Kali is a shakti/emanation of power of Durga. Sri Dasam Granth Bani includes a translation which comes from the Shaiva and Shakta scripture called Devi Mahatmyam. The Bagauti Kali or KAL is called the Sarbloh and the ALL-IRON Sword. The ancient historical practices of Sarbloh bibek and jhatka come from worship of this Lady. Kali Yuga is called the Iron Age, it is Her Age, and Her representation is Iron.
Kali Puja and Jhatka
Historically and currently, those Hindus who eat meat prescribe jhatka meat. This is the a common method of slaughter if animal sacrifices are made to some Hindu deities, however Vedic rituals such as Agnicayana involved the strangulation of sacrificial goats. Shaivite Hindus engage in jhatka methods as part of religious dietary laws, as influenced by the Shakti doctrines, which permit the consumption of meat (except beef, which is universally proscribed in Hinduism). The Vaishnavite denomination of Hinduism disallows the consumption of meat, and their relative demographic predominance over the Shaivites leads to the stereotype that all Hindus are vegetarian. During Durga Puja and Kali Puja among Shaivite Hindus in Punjab, Bengal and Kashmir, Jhatka meat is the required meat for practising Shaivite Hindus.Sword is symbol of akal purakah and akal purakh is creator of this lady.Akal Purakh is beyond time, undying as a definition and relates to that aspect of the Divine which is nirgun. What is outside of realm of time and manifest creation cannot have the form of a Sword. So who is the Sword? It can't be the formless nirguna. It HAS TO BE a sargun manifestation. And in this case, it is represented in the Shakti Devi, which manifests the Divine power of God's righteousness.
You can't divide the Divine into 330 devatay unless you are defining from duality perspective. This is the difference of meaning that the God Himself permeates the whole creation. Just like every living being has an atma. The jeev atma is a part of the one Paramatma and ultimately will return to Him. This is Gurbani teaching and it is traditional Vedanta teaching. Patanjali explained that just as the drop of ocean water contains everything that the ocean is, the drop is just a drop, it is not the ocean. HOWEVER, unlike in Abrahamic religious traditions where the drop/jeev is forever separate from the ocean/Paramatma, Vedantic wisdom teaches through sage Patanjali that WHEN the drop MERGES with the ocean, it ceases to be only a drop, and becomes only OCEAN.
Likewise ALL beings which are made of impermanence in created sansaar, which is all the Devatay and all born avtaray will pass away and are subject to laws of Maya and decay. But Gurbani teaching can't be misinterpreted to say the God is not ALL-PERVADING His creation. The Ek Ongkar MANIFESTS through His creation, because what is nirgun can't be manifest. FORMLESS has no perceivable manifestation. Does this mean the God is completely imperceivable? NO! The God in totality aspect is both NIRGUN AND SARGUN. Manifest and unmanifested, beyond comprehension and comprehensible. BUT, to know the FULLNESS of Divinity, to know the COMPLETENESS, "Only He Himself, knows Himself." It is not in the created aspects that the fullness of infinite totality can be known. There is no scripture which could contain or describe Him.
HOWEVER, the Guru knows. And the Guru can only know because the jeev has ceased, and there is only Paramatman, Jyoti Jyot. So the Satguru has BECOME ONE with the ONE.
Now, as to demi-gods, this represents ASPECTS, PARTS OF THE POWERS AND MANIFESTATIONS of the Divine Consciousness in this Sansaara. NOWHERE does Gurbani teaching match Abrahamic scriptures which separate the good GOD from some evil counterpart. YET the British educational system which dominated India has given on many subconscious as well as conscious levels this ABRAHAMIC philosophy of GOD on one side, and a COUNTER-GOD who is fake, evil, corrupted on the other side. That is NOT the same understanding of the devatay in Gurbani. It has much to do with malicious Christianized misinterpretations and mistranslations.
Devatay are finite and not infinite. They are aspects, not the totality. They exist within the created realm, and are therefore subject to ego and Maya as EVERYTHING IN EXISTENCE IS. It is due to no evil qualities of themselves, but part of the CREATED ORDER. To exist with sanity in this created order, every individual thing has to have SELF consciousness. And this is the root of haumai. It is not an evil, in and of itself. But it is a tool misused for selfish purpose and inviting sinful qualities of the panj bhoots to dominate one's life. Because we live in a created universe, EVERYTHING IS SUBJECT TO DECAY AND CORRUPTION.
But this is due to no evil, like a shaitan. It is due to the Divine design and intention. Maya is not an evil. It is like gravity. It keeps us rooted to the sansaara. To defy the gravity of God's Maya, we must have 1. Satguru and 2. Jap Naam. 3. Keep the daily sadhana practices which Guru prescibes. Understand the full meaning of the thrai Maha-devas of creation: Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesh. They cannot even be understood as separate. They represent three aspects of the architecture of creation. The creation itself, the preservation of it, and the destruction of it. This is not an evil. Gurbani is telling us that the Divine has permeated the created existence through these powers.
Absolutely everything born will rot, decay and die. And this is not due to evil or immorality or some Christianized concept of "failed false gods." It is the Eternal's design, His lila. The unborn eternal Oneness is manifesting Himself in the created world of duality, and so is able to manifest as both infinite AND finite, unborn and born, undying and yet able to die. NOTHING is beyond the power of Almighty. But that which is finite cannot contain the infinite. HOWEVER the infinite CAN AND DOES contain the finite. That is Divine Law. Just as the Guru's physical bodies died, so Gurbani says there are millions of Rams and millions of Krishnas on millions of worlds. But the GURU JYOT is UNDYING! Only the drama of the life is finite and comes to an end. Every Ram and every Krishna is a Guru in some age on some world and therefore is MERGED with the GURU JYOT. Otherwise, why is Ram Nam 8,000 times used to call the NAAM of the Divine in Gurbani? Because the JYOTI JYOT BEHIND THE NAME IS ETERNAL! The name represents the ONE manifest in the created realm. And so we worship the eternal even calling as the Naam of Ram. We cannot call the name of the infinite because no words could express. Yet, the NAAM is our salvation. So the Naams of the God we are given are of devatay, avtaray, the manifestations of light on the earth.
So the figure of 330 crore devatay refers only to aspects of perceivable light which reflect the Divine powers and Light of the Total One. They are not individually the TOTAL anymore than the drop is the ocean. But they are not evil. They are like angels. They are devas, meaning LIGHTS. They are reflecting something, manifesting some power or quality. People have an affinity for some aspect such as women may prefer the motherly tendency and idealize Parvati. Yogis may prefer the renunciate Shiva. Etc. In truth, everyone idealizing the Divine in some way regardless of what they may claim. And the reason is, our consciousness is limited. We see ourselves as these identities. We interpret the Divine according to our experiences in cyclic existence. So whether one calls ista deva as Parvati or a Sikh claims only nirguna is real and calls his God as AKAL, is meaningless. NONE of these names have to power to define or limit the God. They just reflect our own consciousness. And that is why Gurbani says ALL these names, including Allah, Krishna, Shiva, Ram, etc are names of who? The ONE TOTALITY.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
Gurmukẖ nāḏaʼn gurmukẖ veḏaʼn gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī.
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad;
the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.
ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
Je ha▫o jāṇā ākẖā nāhī kahṇā kathan na jā▫ī.
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
~SGGS Ji ang 2
Chandi, KALI, the baguati, the SWORD, the KAL is not some created servant of a Divine imperious master like envisioned in Abrahamic scriptures. It is part of the All-pervading Divine Light. It is the aspect of the Divine which, traditionally in Kshatriya lineages, justified the powers of war, combat, sacredness of shastars, sacredness of the calling of a sant-sipahi to defend the eternal Dharma. Else WHY would part of the sacred Shakta scripture in Praise of DEVI, the Devi Mahatmya EXIST in Shri Dasam Granth? Because She is meaningless? Or because DEVI symoblizes part of the Divine Jyot which is to combat evil through the shakti/Divine Power! And if She is this aspect of Divinty, Devi represents the power of God and the God directly, not like some Abrahamic created messenger servant. How can the POWER of God be a mere servant of anybody? That is totally misunderstanding what Devi represents in martial aspect. The purataan Sikhs didn't have a problem with Devi. It's this modern Christianized, missionaized, anti-Hindu, pro-British sepoy generation of Sikhs who want to tarnish and trash all the purataan writings and traditional associations Sikhi had with surrounding Hindu Dharm. Sikhs are so proud to be a Singh, yet Singhs have been Rajput warriors for thousand years. All of a sudden Singh is a new thing dissociated with ancient Hindu past? Some dare try to make it Muslim? I find that unbelievable. Singh comes from Narasingh, the Man-lion avatar who was incarnation of Lord Raam who tore apart demons with his claws. Just as the Marathi Prince Shivaji used weapon of claws, wagh nakh, to kill the Muslim usurper, Afzal Khan. Khalsa SINGHS are a reform movement that did not require birth in a jati to be the noblest sons of kings (Rajaputra: the Kaurs), and Dharma protectors. But it is not new that warriors named Singh would wield Khandas and wear full beards and topknots in defense of the oppressed. That is original Rajput traditions which comes from Lord Rama Himself. That is why Guru Gobind Singh claims that the Bedis and Sodhis are descended from the Solar dynasty of the Rajput clans and Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Ram Das families descend from Lava and Kusha, the sons of Lord Raam.
You will not find anything like this in any Abrahamic scriptures. It is an ancient HINDU tradition. And Sikhism did not trample and disrespect it. Sikhism took the tradition and made it accessible to anybody, born Hindu or born Muslim, born Kshatria or born shudra. But the AIM was the same, and that was sacrifice for the sake of Dharma/righteousness. But it is really false-minded to try to eliminate the traditional symbolism and imagery in Gurbani itself, thinking Hindu religious symbolism is somehow evil or lesser. Corruptions exist in every tradition, including Sikhi. But the philosophy in it's true and noblest sense is not corrupted. Else why does Gurbani proclaim that the Vedas teach us about Satguru and Naam? The two keys of our salvation? And that is because the philosophy while entangled in kaliyug and not able to save, yet contains the teachings of what is able to save. We don't bow to Vedas, we bow to Guru. But STILL the teaching of Guru-shishya in Vedas PRESERVED in Kaliyug what is able to lead to mukti. Vedas and Puranas teach Naam japna. That is their eternal LIGHT. It is totally inappropriate for anyone calling themselves a Sikh to trash Vedas and Puranas against Gurbani teaching.
ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕੋ ਇਹ ਗੁਨ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Beḏ purān paṛe ko ih gun simre har ko nāmā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas,
that you may meditate on the Name of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji ang 220
Dehi Shiva Bar Mohe Ihe (O God, give me these boons)
Shubh Karman Se Kabhun Na Taron (Never shall I shirk from doing good deeds)
Na Daron Ari Son Jab Jai Laron (Never shall I fear when I go to fight the enemy)
Nischey Kar Apni Jeet Karon (And with surety I shall attain victory)
~Shri Dasam Granth
Shiva is improperly ascribed to Hindi name for Shiva. But Shiv is correct for Shiva in this translation. Shiva in this writing is the feminine aspect and refers to Chandi Devi which is why it appears in Chandi Charitar Ukti Bilas, and why it is fitting in with translation of Devi Mahatmyam in Shri Dasam Granth. Purataan Sikhs never had a problem with Chandi. Why do we? They are praising the ONE GOD known by many names and many aspects. There is no such thing as 330 crore. There is only ONE. 330 crore is a delusion of the time dimension. It is an error of the duality consciousness which cannot perceive the Totality and only see's the powers of God in aspects of corruptible time and separation. There is no male and female. God is Oneness and wholeness. The Divine is our Mata AND our Pita. In the aspect of Chandi, HE THE DIVINE ONE is defending His children like a mother lioness. And that is why our Guru's had no problem with Kaurs leading battle charges like Mai Bhago. Because they had the immaculate perception of Brahm Gyan that even "she" was made in the image of the ONE.
But don't think Hindu religion trampled women. That is only the corruption of the era and of ignorant people mistranslating scriptures. Kshatriya tradition had great Rajput Ranis who also marched and fought and died in battle. And the reason? They understood the shakti of Chandi. Sikhism incorporated this great HERITAGE of the Rajputana in Kaur Singnia. The genius of the reform was, it wasn't caste based any longer. That truly is the genius of the Guru Sahibaan. But the tradition of Hindu female warriors is ancient. Else, where would even come such a symbolism as Chandi?
Lakshmi Bai Rani of Jhansi
Devi Pargat By Guru Gobind Singh?
in Archived Discussions
Posted
There is always the claim made that the translation is wrong. I am not reading the bani in English. Most of the words which contain potent philosophical and spiritual concepts are Sanskrit translated into Punjabi. Veer ji, for the sake of having bani which is readily accessibly for discussion purposes I cite what can be directly copied and pasted. I also accept that the English translation isn't optimal. I am happy for you to point out particular arths and problems with translation please.
Let me show you an example:
Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmesur anṯarjāmī.
Maḏẖusūḏan ḏāmoḏar su▫āmī.
Rikẖīkes govarḏẖan ḏẖārī murlī manohar har rangā.
Mohan māḏẖav krisan murāre.
Jagḏīsur har jī▫o asur sangẖāre.
Jagjīvan abẖināsī ṯẖākur gẖat gẖat vāsī hai sangā.
Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā▫iṇ.
Ḏāṛā agre paritham ḏẖarā▫iṇ.
Bāvan rūp kī▫ā ṯuḏẖ karṯe sabẖ hī seṯī hai cẖanga.
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rekẖ▫i▫ā.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082
Can you provide an appropriate translation please which shows that the nirgun God is somehow the only true God and the devatay and avtaray are like "false" gods? Because very clearly the bani is saying the das avtaray ARE Parabrahm, and hence sargun manifestation of the nirgun Lord. And the descriptors given are beyond dispute Vaishnav definitions of God which includes the sargun as well as nirgun aspects. Please explain the English translation problems please. As I am not reading in English.
om purnam adah purnam idam
purnat purnam udacyate
purnasya purnam adaya
purnam evavasisyate
om shanti shanti shanti
That is the whole, this is the whole;
from the whole, the whole becomes manifest;
taking away the whole from the whole,
the whole remains.
Om. Peace! Peace! Peace!
~Isopanishad invocation
The roop of the das avtaray is a manifestation of the wholeness. It is a plenary portion, as is the phenomenal world. The whole could not completely manifest in the finite, or the finite would cease by expressing the fullness of the infinite.
tad ejati tan naijati
tad dure tan vantike
tad antarasya sarvasya
tad u sarvasyasya bahyatah
The Supreme Lord walks and does not walk.
He is far away, but He is near as well.
He is within everything, and again,
He is outside everything.
~Isopanishad mantra 5
Because the Supreme Lord is nirgun AND sargun, He is both formless and with form. You cannot say the God cannot have form because that would be putting a limit on the infinite. And there is no limit to His powers or His ability to manifest and veil Himself through powers of Mayajog. Certainly there is no tuuk in Gurbani which says there is a limit to the Supreme. There is no tuuk which says the God does NOT manifest as avtaray. But in many places is saying the Parabrahm incarnates in Yuga cycles to maintain Dharma of the world. The forms are very clearly identified,
*Who lifted up Govardhan mountain?
*Who saved Dropati's honor?
*Who plays the flute?
*Who has blue-skin and is called keshava?
*Who carries the Sudarshana Chakra?
It's not a mystery. Why would Gurbani have all these specific details if God has no form? Why are the names Shri Ramachandra, Narasingh, Hari, Krishan even in the bani? Because they all mean nirguna? No. Impossible. Because they all refer to the sargun manifestation of the nirguna. There are millions of Rams and millions of Krishnas on millions of worlds. The God is INFINITE. But in this sansaar, to limited beings, the INFINITE manifests in the perceivable finite. If you doubt this, then you doubt Guru. Because that manifestation is the same thing as what a Satguru is, perceivable form of the INFINITE. If not, then the bani of such a Master would have no power to lead us safely across the ocean of sansaar.
Sarīrang baikunṯẖ ke vāsī.
Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi▫ā a▫uṯrāsī.
Kesav cẖalaṯ karahi nirāle kīṯā loṛėh so ho▫igā. ||8||
Nirāhārī nirvair samā▫i▫ā.
Ḏẖār kẖel cẖaṯurbẖuj kahā▫i▫ā.
Sāval sunḏar rūp baṇāvėh beṇ sunaṯ sabẖ mohaigā. ||9||
Banmālā bibẖūkẖan kamal nain.
Sunḏar kundal mukat bain.
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. ||10||
Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī.
Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī.
Sāringḏẖar bẖagvān bīṯẖulā mai gaṇaṯ na āvai sarbangā. ||11||
~SGGS Ji ang 1082
*Who lives in Vaikuntha? ...Vishnu
*Who became the fish and turtle? ...Vishnu
*Who is Keshava, the Lord of beautiful hairs? ...Krishna
*Who is without hate? ...Krishna
*Who carries the conch, the chakr, the club? ...Vishnu Hari
*Whose clothes are yellow-color....Hari!
*Who is Jagannatha Gopal? ...Hari Krishna
*Who is the Archer who has many limbs? ...Ram of Avodya
It's not a mystery. And these are not English descriptions. Neither are they mistranslations.
Fresco depicting a scene from Markandey Puraan where Durga crushesMahikasur (a demon),
at the Guru Ram Rai Udasin Akhara at Dehradun,Uttranchal, India
Guru Ram Rai Udasin Akhara
Gurdwara of Sikh Guru Ram Rai. Dehradun. The Gurdwara was built in1687, but the gate
(from which this detail was taken) was built at theend of the 19th century. Ram and Laxman.
Guru Ram Rai Dehradun