HarjasDevi

She's not a Sikh, and until I have evidence to support the fact, I am not convinced that she is a woman.

If you actually read through the thread, you will understand that that she/he/it has insulted Dasmesh Pita's bania by spreading lies about it being altered when the tuks do not support her idiotic arguments.

HSD has done a great job so far to make Harjas "Kaur" look like the bandri that she/he/it is. I commend him and hope that he will continue to demolish her/his/its pathetic logic with sound arguments.

Even if the woman cannot respect herself? Your comment about 'a sikh woman' also implies racism. Are white/black/muslim women not worthy of respect?

Having said that, i have come across many hindu men who get kicks out of pretending to be sikh women on forums, so they can watch little sikh boys 'defend their honour' against other sikhs who are pointing out how bad they are. Maybe you should see what the real world and real people are like before saying such things.

Posted 21 October 2009 - 08:58 PM

View Postds123, on 21 October 2009 - 07:23 PM, said:

are you the same Harjas Kaur who used to post on tapoban forum?

Yes

If we cannot stand up to one form of slander, we should bow down to all others?

And you do not slander?

I used my real name and not some fake ID. Obviously someone has recognized me. Does it occur to you I might even be known in the community? Why are all these attacks personal? How does this prove anything in any discussion except that you people are filled with abusive intolerance and hate of anything Hindu?

no it doesnt. it just skips round the question with smart talk and fancy words so you can avoid answering the question. I'l will ask for the 4th time, please answer with a yes or no: " did Guru Ji ever fight any battles against Hindus"?

I'm not a criminal on trial to be bullied by some lawyer tactic legally narrowing the scope of my answers to manipulate a response favorable to the attorney's client. I answered you. If you don't like the answer, lump it.

And just consider the hostile environment in which I am answering mostly accusations against me personally which is not even a discussion, but a hate fest.

Mind you, someone here was wise/quick enough to find some anti-sikh sentiments being shared by Harjas elsewhare and brought that forth and challenged. That is fair game.

Anti-Sikh? Or anti-Bhasauria/Tat Khasa world-view? Do you think Udasis who share these same kinds of interpretations of Gurbani consider themselves as "anti-Sikh?"

But if you look at the responses I receive, how undeniable anti-Hindu they are. Beyond anti-Hindu, it's anti-Hindu hate propaganda.

I don't go onto hindu/muslim boards as neither of them really matter to me. Further, most of it sounds like fundamentalist gibberish.

I posted on this forum because it has sections discussing Sanatan teachings and sampradaya, relationship between things like Gurmat and Gita, etc, and so open to different beliefs, interpretations, including Islam. So clearly this was not labeled as some "ONLY SIKH KHALISTANI ANTI-HINDU forum." Where one could say, "How dare you post there. Go back to the HIndu forum" But I have since been corrected in my mistaken understanding. Now I know better what a hate-filled, abusive, and anti-Hindu place this is.

I know where you are coming from with 1984, I am not even going to belittle that argument

Why am I blamed for 1984? And I used to be amritdhari Sikh. Do you people really believe ALL Hindus are guilty of all abuses towards Sikhs? You don't even differentiate the Sikh Punjabi police involved in human rights abuses like KPS Gill? But ENTIRE BLAME rests on EVERY HINDU ONLY!

You think Jagdish Tytler didn't have a Sikh mother? Everyone in New Delhi riots was a Hindu including a man with a Sikh mother? Do you stop and think that people in riots are criminals, that these riots were politically manipulated and don't represent spiritual minded religious Hindus at all?

Most Sikhs have seen the movie "Amu." It is a powerful, moving and true movie. I try to show it to all the Hindus I know. It was made by a Bengali Hindu woman who lived through the Delhi riots. Have Sikhs all forgotten there were some Hindus who risked their lives to save Sikhs? But now you dump your hate and blame for every political evil on every Hindu without discrimination. This represents some kind of "truth?"

For years I have been supporting reform of human rights abuses against Sikhs. Does it occur to you there is a reason why I am NOT a member of RSS? Don't I, as a human being, have a right to represent what I DO believe in, and not be saddled with the hate and blame directed to a political organization I don't belong to? What kind of truth is represented by such lies and slanders?

That to me is cowardice, that it is one lady against all you "powerful" Khalsas and the best you can do is use foul language and insults and slanders. A debate, a discussion is about LEARNING the other point of view without necessarily having to agree with it. We can't even learn from each other under these conditions, let alone approach the kind of simple unity which isn't some justification of terrorist attacks and murder.

BECAUSE you propagandistically feel every Hindu or Sanatan person represents your most evil and hated enemy, all manner of abuse, including assassination is tolerated, justified and praised. One day, hopefully, you will be able to think more rationally and regret this hate-filled mindset.

the guru's get questioned and insulted by bahadur/ishraqi (whatever his handle was at that time)

I don't even know anything about this person. Why am I being compared to this person? What does he have to do with me? Why can't I just be accepted as myself? Why do I have to be constantly stereotyped, lumped in with some other hated group or person?

THIS is nindya.

Show me where I did any such personal blame, smearing and slander to any one of you? Have a nice hate forum. Stop smearing and besmirching my personal character like dogs. You know nothing about me personally. You are disgrace to Guru Ji's Khalsa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KBCxlUmI_c

"MY REQUEST TO YOUTH OF TODAY : please break off the barriers of caste and religion ,

don't repeat the mistakes which the people did in past ..try to be ONE ..

YES,WE CAN DO IT .."

Funeral-bhog of Sant Ramanand Ji, Vienna Ravidassi Sangat

This debate has taken many turns, point by point. Can i please ask harjas kaur to state, what exactly she is trying to prove?. So we can open new thread based on those points with strict guidelines of moderation of staying on the topic and discuss them one by one.

This thread is Anti-Sikh Propaganda as claimed Sikh-Hindu Unity.

My responses have alternately been answering the twisting and turning questions of the hostile parties accusing Hinduism and Hindu-Sikh Unity efforts to be anti-Gurmat, anti-Sikh propaganda, and something to be suppressed with attacks, insults and even to justifications of murder of sanatan dera leaders.

You can apply your "strict moderation guidelines" but they may still be mis-applied to silencing support of Sikh-Hindu unity viewpoints to cater to the voices of extremism and hostility which intend to forever pivot Sikhs and Hindus as bitter enemies. While this may represent the forum posters, it by no means represents the mainstream Sikh opinion but is the voice of radicalism.

Why, for example, is Sikh-Hindu Unity even under the anti-Sikh Propaganda heading? You see, it already implies bias. I was addressing that bias.

This debate has taken many turns, point by point. Can i please ask harjas kaur to state, what exactly she is trying to prove?. So we can open new thread based on those points with strict guidelines of moderation of staying on the topic and discuss them one by one.

I am trying to answer their twisting and turning questions which they specifically direct to me when I post a response on the thread topic.

I have opinions as does anyone. But sanatan opinions which promote relationship and harmony between the ideology of Gurmat and Sanatan Dharma is met with huge hostility and resistance. My opinion regarding the Gita and Gurmat is they are one and the same based on pauris within Shri Guru Granth Sahib that claim Krishna as a Yuga Avatar and Satguru for Dwapara Yuga. So Gita is Gurbani for an earlier time.

Everything else has been a dance around sharks who deny sanatan heritage and history of Sikhism.

ਇਹ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ ॥

eih srapanee tha kee keethee hoee ||

This she-serpent is created by Him.

ਬਲੁ ਅਬਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਇਸ ਤੇ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥

bal abal kia eis thae hoee ||4||

What power or weakness does she have by herself? ||4||

~Aasaa Bhagat Kabir Shabad:2313 Page 719 of Amrit Keertan Gutka

Also,

And also,

harjas kaur, i'll ask again for the third time, "did Guru ji ever fight any battles against hindus?

simple yes or no, if possible.

It is still all of you against one of me, so I can't possibly answer every single persons demanding questions.

Guruji was from Hindu family and ethnic/religious heritage. Guruji fought alongside Hindu commanders. Guruji accepted shishyas who were Hindus. Guruji also fought against collaborator Hindus. Guruji never rejected Hindus or became their enemy.

What is false is to try to make Hindus all one thing. For example, "Hindus are those dirty (insert here whatever bad name) who betrayed the Guru and Guruji crushed them." That's the kind of fake talk that distorts reality. Sikhs came out of Hindus, no question, and a smaller portion of Muslim converts as well and majority of those most likely because they were Hindu's forced to convert to Muslim. Hindu resistence during those times in Punjab was weakened. This was no longer a Mughal invasion. It was already a Mughal rulership and oppression, especially difficult to fight because, the Rajputs were collaborating with the enemy.

Although this is not true of all Rajputs, as can be seen, Rajput clans joined the Sikhs, including the great Banda Singh Bahadur who was a Hindu RAJPUT who became Guruji's shishya. He doesn't disappear as a Hindu Rajput because Tat Khalsa version of history wants to deny it. Get your history in perspective. Know who these people were, and who and why they were fighting, and stop with ridiculous caricatures of what a "Hindu" is.

Let me rephrase your question and ask you:

Did Guruji wage a war against the Hindu people? Or was He fighting a war which protected people, Sikh and Hindu, living in the same pinds, with convert Hindu soldiers against the Mughals and their Hindu collaborators? One has to ask, why were the Mughals waging a war against the people and forcibly converting them to Islam under torture?

You see, this puts in proper perspective the truth of it.

Isn't that what China said before the surprise attack in 1962?

And if that's the case, who's funding and arming the Naxals?

And your point is? Scared the chinis will do to you what you did to us in 1984?

What's with the "us" and "you?"

Did you know I used to be amritdhari with Akj? Do you think atheistic Communists won't bring ruin to Sikhs as well as Hindus and Muslims if they invade India like they invaded Tibet? Who in their right mind would support a Communist Chinee takeover?

Who did I kill? Names, dates, locations please. Otherwise don't falsely and blindly accuse.

So its okay for you to do it but not us. Now that is typical hindu mentality.

Again this over-simplification of reality. When did I ever support of defend the criminal actions of the Gandhi government in pogroms and massacres of Sikhs?

Today Indira and Rajiv are DEAD. That emergency dictatorial government is DEAD. Are you calling Bhai Manmohan Singh Ji as also a "Hindu?" And if the persecutions against the militancy by own Punjabi Sikh Police AND KPS Gill are some kind of "Hindu's murdering YOU personally" and not some propaganda of a schoolboy pretending in his mind to be a hero of a revolution and all he can do is throw insults and slanders into a debate.

I didn't kill anyone. Neither did you. I don't represent criminal government of Gandhis or thugs of murderers and neither do you. SO let's stop the slanders.

"We?" You were there personally?

Hindus joined the Sikhs against the Mughals. Why would they oppose them?

The use of 'We' as in me and my relation to my ancestors. What about when some hindu buttmunch says 'we beat the mughals' or 'we beat the pakistanis in that war'? Of course that's different according to you. But its funny ripping apart your arguments on this forum.

So you are being a "Sikh" buttmunch? Stop with the "we," you weren't fighting there. Sikh buttmunch and Hindu buttmunch both need to shut it!

Funny you also said this: "But why do you call as enemies the same Hindustani people who the Gurus and the Shishyas descended from and not the oppressive Mlecchas?"

So the hindus of today are the same as those around hundreds of years ago? Make your mind up you hypocrite.

All the Sikhs of a hundred years ago are "WE" as in yourself personally and present tense. But all the Hindus of a hundred years ago are not the same as today. And I am a hypocrite to say I am related to both Hindu's and Sikhs and speak on behalf of there being Unity?

How is that being a hypocrite?

A SIKH RAJPUT IS A SIKH! GOD, HOW RETARDED ARE YOU? A SIKH IS A SIKH.

You asked the question, "Where were all the Hindu fighters?" And I answered, they were joining the Sikh Army. Is it not so?

And there were Hindu movements fighting, but as has been mentioned, in the Punjab the Rajputs were collaborating with the Mughals and became enemies of both Sikhs and Hindus. Hindus were weak in the North, Sikhs were strong. But as the reality remains that Hindus were joining the Sikhs it is impossible to say Hindu's disappeared and didn't fight. In fact, their ancestry probably runs in your veins.

Sikh is a religion. Hindu means both a religion AND an ethnicity. ALL Sikhs are ethnically related to the people of Hindustan. If they were represented by the Muslims, why were they fighting AGAINST the Mughals and not joining the treasonous Hill rajas and Rajput collaborators? Muslims did join Sikhs, but not anywhere in the same numbers as the Hindus, and majority of those had been Hindus forced to convert. Moreover, those Muslims who did join were equally opposed to the Mughal oppression, as a kind of collaborator. The fact that Rajputs and Jatts shared the same pinds means nothing to you? When Rajputs and Jatts are fighting to defend the same pinds against Mughal invaders, somehow you can't see relationship?

What F***king regiments? In 1699 the people who became 'khalsa sikhs' were already sikhs of the previous gurus. Rajputs and jatts did not join in regiments. What garbage. Regiments werent even used in the Khalsa until Maharaja Ranjit Singh modernised the sikh army. Your ignorance is shocking. As for Banda Singh, of course he wasnt a hindu, he became a sikh.

So where did the Hindu fighters go? They were fighting in Sikh Army, regiments, Misls throughout Sikh history. You think the discussion is of Hindus who joined Sikhi at only one time in history? Ramgharia Misl had large amount of Rajputs who joined for example. But this is just an example of Rajputs, not to mention there were Hindu Khatris, Aroras, Jats, Tarkhans, Minas, Gujjers, etc. In fact, the persistence of gotra names in Sikhism is proof of "where the Hindu's went."

Use respect when you talk and stop foaming at the mouth. You call yourself a "Sikh" but represent using this kind of language? A debate is not a vulgar insult match. Use civility.

The sikh army punched well above its wait...

Hindu resistance was crushed for centuries...

The Khalsa frequently marched on delhi and was unopposed.

We stopped the invaders of the north by ourselves, so people like the maharattas could run around killing peasants and calling themselves mighty hindu warriors. If hindus created all that why did the sikhs do all the fighting?

"We?" You were there personally?

Hindus joined the Sikhs against the Mughals. Why would they oppose them?

Sikh Rajputs are the followers of Sikhism belonging to the Rajput Ethnic group. According to the 1901 British census of India, there were 769,000 rajput converts to Sikhism.

Sikh Rajputs have a long-standing tradition in Punjab and in Sikh history. During the Mughal era, many Punjabi families followed the teachings of the Guru and were baptized as Khalsa and joined the Guru's order of followers. Many Punjabi Rajput families also enrolled in the Guru's Army, or Khalsa Panth, and baptized as Khalsa Sikhs.

There are many Sikh Rajputs in the history of Sikhism: Banda Singh Bahadur,[2][3] Baba Nidhan Singh of Hazoor Sahib, Bhai Sangat Singh Minhas, Bhai Bachittar Singh Minhas and many families whose kin are followers of Sikhism today. There are many Sikh Rajputs today with common Rajput family names. Sikh Rajputs

Well, seems like the Hindu's were not only fighting in Rajput Armies. The Rajputs were fighting in the Sikh Armies. So how can you say HIndu's were not fighting when they were right beside "you?"

By your logic, even Hindus who became Muslims are still Hindus, because of their ancestry.

That is what Gurbani says.

Who started this we or u?

Neither.

But I am not guilty of some crime against you where rude and insulting speech intended to abuse my person is some representation Of Khalsa Sikhi either.

Typical Hindu after killing so many people asking where is the offence.

Who did I kill? Names, dates, locations please. Otherwise don't falsely and blindly accuse.

The Contents of the Dasam Granth are:

*

1. Jaap (meditation)

2. Akal Ustat (praises of God)

3. Bachitar Natak ( autobiography of the Guru)

4. Chandi Charitar I & II (the character of goddess Chandi)

5. Chandi di Var (a ballad to describe goddess Durga)

6. Gian Prabodh (the awakening of knowledge)

7. Chaubis Avtar (24 incarnations of Vishnu)

8. Brahm Avtar (incarnation of Brahma)

9. Rudar Avtar (incarnation of Shiv)

10. Shabad Hazare (ten shabads)

11. Swayyae (33 stanzas)

12. Khalsa Mehma (the praises of the Khalsa)

13. Shastar Nam Mala ( a list of weapons)

14. Triya Charitar (the character of women)

15. Zafarnama (epistle of victory, a letter written to Emperor Aurangzeb)

16. Hikayats. (stories) Dasam Granth

The contents of Shri Dasm Granth bani boggle the mind if Sikh Guru and "religion" totally rejected as false. I mean, if you don't even believe in devi or avtaras, why in the world compile entire Granth discussing something you don't even believe in, totally reject, and in even praising godly and martial qualities while copying from Puraanas? Rejection means you don't accept. It doesn't mean you incorporate Shakta Purana into Gurbani.

The Dasam Granth contains 1428 pages and is the collection of the writings of the 10th Patshah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It contains his Jaap Sahib, the Akal Ustat or praise of the Creator, the Vachitar Natak or Wonderful Drama, in which the Guru gives an account of his parentage, his divine mission, and the battles in which he had been engaged.

Then come three abridged translations of the Devi Mahatamya, an episode in the Markandeya Puran, in praise of Durga the Goddess of war (Chandi Chritras: Chandi Chritra I, Chandi Chritra II, Chandi Ki Var). Then follows the Gyan Parbodh, or awakening of knowledge; Chobis Avatar - accounts of twenty-four incarnations of the Vishnu, according to the Hindus, and Brahrnavatar and Rudravtdr, selected because of their warlike character; Dasam Granth

The Tat Khalsa scholars can't reconcile their OWN rejection of Hindu heritage with the sanataan heritage of Gurbani and are jumping through incredibly controlled and staged hoops in order to prove it. Even the Christians have open scholarship where various sects and individuals can independently evaluate translations and original documents. By hiding things from the public they don't protect the Granth, they make it suspect and unreliable. By only presenting ONE VERSION and ONE TRANSLATION they create controversy. By only designating as "Panthic" those scholars trained and approved by them, they don't make the controversies about the bani go away. They have not even explained publicly why 32 birs have gone missing and are no longer even available, but translation now relies on only 3.

The fact remains, Shri Dasm Granth includes a translation of the Devi Mahatmyam in praise of Durga-Kali the KAL, Sarabloh Shakti the SWORD, the Pritam Bagwati.

No translation can ever change that. What in the world is that Shakta bani even doing in the Granth of Dasm Pita Ji? Which tells the story of the Mahishasura Mardini. And why can't we honestly and historically explore the sanatan history which is violently suppressed that Dasm Pitaji was a devotee of the same Chandi whose name became the capitol, Chandigarh? Whose Adi Chand rests on the foreheads of Akali Nihangs? Whose mount became the surname of the Sikhs? And whose footprints are all over sanatan Sikh heritage.

Detail from Solykoff's lithograph of Maharaja Sher Singh, with Battle Standard showing Lord Muruga Skanda Kartikeya, son of Shiva and Battle Commander of the Devas."

"The fifth aspect of the Mother Durga is known as ‘Skanda Mata’ - the mother of Skanda or Lord Kartikeya, who was chosen by gods as their commander in chief in the war against the demons. She is worshipped on the fifth day of Navaratri. She is accompanied by the Lord Skanda in his infant form." Durga and Skanda Kartikeya

Lord Muruga Skanda Kartikeya: Battle Commander in Chief of the Devas, being venerated.

Lord Muruga Skanda Kartikeya, the son of Lord Rudra/Shiva carries a teer and rides a peacock. His name symbolises Mu (from Vishnu Mukunda) Ru (From Rudra) and Ga/Ka (from Kamalan/Brahma) and hence symbolizes within Himself all the powers of the Divine. If Tat Khalsa Sikhs want to eliminate sanatan Sikh heritage, they will have to eliminate Maharaj Ranjit Singh and entire period of Sikh Kingdom. How could the detail of this symbolism, this "Hindu Mat" be so intertwined with sanatan Sikh history if it were not real?

Sikh Battle Standards captured by the British during the Anglo Sikh Wars. Kept at Lichfield Cathedral (Staffordshire UK)

The cathedral houses the battle standards and memorials of the Staffordshire Regiment. It has a dedicated monument to the Anglo - Sikh Wars, Sikh Battle Standards captured during the Battle of Ferozepur on 21st December 1845 are displayed here.

The inscriptions on this monument read:

‘The Sikh colours on this memorial were taken by H.M.’s 80th Regiment at the Battles of Ferozeshah and Sobraon. The capture of the Black Standard at Ferozeshah cost the lives of some of those commemorated.’ Sikh Battle Standards

The Devi Mahatmyam or Devi Mahatmya (Sanskrit: devīmāhātmyam, देवीमाहात्म्यम्), or "Glory of the Goddess") is a Hindu text describing the victory of the goddess Durga over the demon Mahishasura. As part of the Markandeya Purana, it is one of the Puranas or secondary Hindu scriptures, and was composed in Sanskrit around c. 400-500 CE, with authorship attributed to the sage Markandeya (Rishi).

Devi Mahatmyam is also known as the Durgā Saptashatī (ढुर्गासप्तशती) or simply Saptashatī, Caṇḍī (चण्डी) or Caṇḍī Pāṭha (चण्डीपाठः) - where pāṭha – "reading" – refers to the act of ritual reading. The text contains 700 (saptashata - "seven hundred") verses, arranged into 13 chapters. By far the most important text of Shaktism[1], the text has a central place in Shakta ritual. Devi Mahatmyam

Why are sanatan devatas on Sikh Battle standards if Sikhs have not been Sanatanis?

Why is Devi Mahatmyam in praise of Durga as Mahishasura Mardini in Sri Dasam Granth?

Above translation is from Gobind sadan site.

No Ji, entire direct quotations you have posted link directly to this site Sridasam.Org connected with Punjabonline, which is NOT Udasi Gobindsadan, Siri Dasam Granth 5 volumes. Gobindsadan site only has translation into Punjabi and you can only download them not cut and paste to posts because they are pdf files.

This website, SriDasam.Org, features the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib in English, Punjabi, and Hindi. The site also provides a search engine for these scriptures.

The Sri Dasam Granth is attributed to have been written by Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708). However, there is great debate over various portions of the scriptures. This website takes no position on the debate. There is no doubt that the authenticity of the Dasam Granth is highly questionable, but what remains a fact is that the Dasam Granth exists, and this website provides it for your reference and curiousity. Please read the disclaimer for more details.

This project was a collaboration of hard work by various individuals. Here we acknowledge all of these people.

Credits

Project initiative, coding and web-site: Jasjeet Singh Thind

Monetary contributions for typing of text by: Jasjeet Singh Thind, Kulbir S. Thind, Khushdev K. Thind and Deepinder Singh

Current corrections of text by: Bibi Amarjit Kaur of Belgium.

Text of two chapters provided by: Bhai Baljinder Singh of Rarasahib.

Initial corrections, formatting, conversion to Unicode Gurmukhi and conversion to Unicode Hindi by: Kulbir Singh Thind

Please send feedback to punjabonline@yahoo.com.

It is dasam granth in which avtarvaad and idol worship is rejected in all compositions. British or tat khalsa theory does not hold any ground.

If Gurbani rejects avtaarvaad, why does Gurbani say the Parabrahm who is Ajooni also took incarnation as the Das Avtaaras? And is this complexity not explained by niragun-saragun?

The translations of the Shri Dasm Granth are so controversial and so questionable it comes down to sectarianism. I could also quote from translations from Gobindsadan which would utterly refute these Tat Khalsa translations, but I refrain.

I refrain because I respect the bani while acknowledging the controversy in translation. There were 32 original birs at the time the Singh Sabha together with British funding set about translation. They are now missing. Which bir and why did Singh Sabha choose to translate? Did it parallel with other translations? Were the Punjabi translations even correct with the orignial Braj Bhasha which Dasm Granth was written in?

the fact that competing translations exist and what the Panth is given is a neat little package with stamp of seal of approval by SGPC Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha scholars reflects an anti-Hindu bias from the outset.

With respect tsingh on Sikhsangat has written:

Now, these are typical accusations of the Tat Khalsas. Neferious Hindu agents are running around Sikh history putting Sanatan Hidu Dharma into the writings. But that's not true at all. The purataan writings all reflect sanatan ideology and far predate the political existance of Arya Samaj or Singh Sabha.

Likewise it's the belief of sanatani's that Tat Khalsas have distorted the bani in their attempt to purge it of Hindu influence. I will dare say this includes the reason for marginalizing and banning things like Prem Sumarag and Gur Bilas.

So everything you have quoted from Shri Dasm Granth cannot at this time be proven to actually be Shri Dasm Granth bani, and any sanatani will question it's translation and out of context political message of anti-Hinduism.

Gurbani in Shri Guru Granth Sahib says that Krishan Ji is a Yuga avatar and that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the avatar for Kali Yuga. If a translation is saying otherwise, it is contradicting Guru bani. Gurbani says that the One Lord is all pervading the Devatay. If a translation of Shri Dasm Granth says otherwise, it is contradicting Guru bani.

"it was the Chamars themselves." Oh really? And wheres the proof? More opinion?

Like I said, check their names - they were all from his community.

I'm not about to splash the names of suspects in a murder case all over the internet. Is the internet your only source of information?

If you will not even say their obviously Chamar names, then it's a "secret?" The Vienna police have already publically posted their names and they were indistinguishable from any caste. Are you saying the sources of the Vienna police are fake, but your secret hear-say evidence is believable?

The Ravidass Sabha is the organisation that was headed by the killed sant. Their W.London branch is to be found at 282 Western Road, Southall, Middx UB2 5JT. President is Jog Raj Ahir.

Thank you ji, I will contact them.

Are My Beliefs Snatan?

Hindu is a Nationality as based on those persons descended from the geographical region of Hindustan.

Hindu is a religion conforming to those beliefs and practices originating from the spiritual teachings originating from ancient Hindustan. So two different things are being discussed and mixed together like apples and oranges.

Hindu Dharma, meaning that spiritual ideology of Dharama originating from the Indian subcontinent. Is reflected in ancient religious teachings and observances based on the Vedas which have nothing to do with faults of modern political state of India or ethnicities or even religion. But relates to universal Truth and moral duty to that Truth/Sat.

Is a political slogan during the time of revolution for independance of Nation of India from British rule and was meant to convey unity. At the time many Sikhs felt no animosity towards it and were actually great heroes of the Independance movement. Those Sikhs who did feel animosity towards it, such as Singh Sabha movement were sometimes working with the British against the Independance movement and promised for their loyalty a restoration of Khalsa Raj. But the slogan (Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan) reflects the limitation of a political mindset at a particular time in history and has no bearing on the concept of Sanatana Dharama. For one thing there are many great languages of equal import: Punjabi, Telugu, Marathi, Gujarati, Bengali, Malayalam, etc. It was a political intent to unify, but it was as offensive as it was helpful.

So two different things are alternately discussed and often confused as one thing, Hindu Nationalism born out of the Independance movement and Hindu Dharm (That Dharm originating in the teachings from ancient region of Hindustan or best stated as Sanatan Dharm (Universal Spiritual Discipline/Duty for upliftment of Mankind).

Obviously evil actions which degrade the humanity are in violation of the very purpose and meaning of the term. Universal Spirituality has no barrier of religion or race because the atma of every living being has a responsibility to this Dharm and to the Creator, depending on it's created purpose. Mankind was created to love, praise and serve the God.

What is Sanatan Dharm?

The religion which eternally exists in God, which is revealed by God, which describes the names, forms, virtues and the abodes of God, and which reveals the true path of God realization for all the souls is called Sanatan Dharm, the universal religion for the whole world.

The word dharm is formed from the root word dhryan (dhryan dharne); it means such actions and such spiritual or religious practices that finally result in all-good for a soul. A general description of dharm is:

It means that such actions, thoughts and practices that promote physical and mental happiness in the world (abhyudaya) and ensure God realization (nishreyas) in the end, are called dharm.

There are two kinds of dharmas: (a) Apar dharm, or varnashram dharm, or seemit dharm, or general dharm, and (b ) par dharm or bhagwat dharm.

(a) Apar dharm, or varnashram dharm, or seemit dharm, or general dharm. The word dharm means the religious practices and thoughts that are aimed to fulfill a pious goal in life. Accordingly the apar or varnashram dharm is the religious discipline and injunctions of do’s and dont's that are explained in the scriptures for uplifting the sattvic qualities of a human being in general. Varnashram word refers to all kinds and classes of people of this world living various orders of life (like a family man, a priest, a monk or a sanyasi), and apar word means ‘secondary’ or ‘general’ or ‘preliminary’ because it is not the absolute or prime dharm, it is the preliminary dharm for everyone in the world.

The discipline and rules of apar dharm vary according to the state of the spiritual consciousness of a person, and its rigidness also varies from age to age, that is, from satyug to kaliyug.

As can be clearly seen from the definition, Sanatana Dharma cannot be associated with political movements or even a modern Nation State. It is eternal and universal spiritual responsibility to uphold the good, the true, the pure and the right duties. So no politician and conversely, no criminal can ever represent that.

The Hindutva movement as we clearly see, loses the respect of that Dharama and becomes a mere political and Nationalistic voice which can never represent a true spiritual movement. It lacks the power of conviction and it is ethnocentric, which true spirituality is not. However, in discussing things like the Khalistani movement, then the discussion veers into the area of ethnic Indian Nationalism, which doesn't reflect Sanatana Dharama.

Wrongdoers do not represent the Dharma but violate it. And in this I am speaking to anyone at any time who was party to any riots or bombings or killings or abuses which harmed any innocent human being. Those persons will have to answer to the Jamdhoot regardless of whether they were Hindu or Muslim or Sikh or any religion. The atma always answers to the God. Evil and politics do not represent spiritual truth. They must answer for their corruptions of it.

We hardly need to go anywhere to verify the existence of manu smriti. The proof is there in structure of Hindu society itself about this tyrannical division of humanity.

Respecting that there have been corruptions and alterations of the text; can you explain why Shri Dasm Granth bani is claiming Manu Smriti as coming from the God to save the Dharma and put mankind on proper spiritual path?

Because neferious forces have politically altered the scripture. And it is as I said previously, not the correct representation of Vedanta. So stop falsely bashing the same as which Guru Gobind Singh Ji has declared of God, and that is Sanatana Dharama from which all these scriptures originate. But recognize, in the many famous debates, Sruti/ that which comes directly from the Vedas is the most correct and any secondary scripture which contradicts it is in error.

Tyrannical division of humanity occurs in every human society throughout human history and cannot be naively blamed on "Manu Smritis." because it reflects the duality divisions of human consciousness and the evil tendancies of mankinds panj bhutas. It is NOT the Divine intent. It is human weakness and corruption.

amardeep

Posted Yesterday, 07:30 AM

Manu simriti in Dasam Granth

Sri Dasam Granth

This is very interesting Ji, thank you for sharing. This shows Dasam Granth is not condemning Manu Smritis but actually recognizing them. So we have to re-evaluate what elements of Manu Smritis are later interpolations and distortions of the original text, as what is modernly presented is NOT what is being praised in the bani. That which is condemnable and contrary to Shruti cannot possibly be Dharmic truth, neither would it be described as emanating from the Lord through Vishnu avatar to restore Dharma.

ਸਾਧ ਅਸਾਧ ਸਭੈ ਹੁਐ ਗਏ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਸਭ ਹੂੰ ਤਜਿ ਦਏ ॥

साध असाध सभै हुऐ गए ॥ धरम करम सभ हूं तजि दए ॥

The saints became devoid of saintliness and all abandoned the action of Dharma;

ਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਆਗਯਾ ਤਬ ਦੀਨੀ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਚੰਦ ਸੋਈ ਬਿਧਿ ਕੀਨੀ ॥੨॥

काल पुरख आगया तब दीनी ॥ बिसन चंद सोई बिधि कीनी ॥२॥

Then the Immanent Lord ordered Vishnu, who did as commanded.2.

ਮਨੁ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਰਾਜਵਤਾਰ ਅਵਤਰਾ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਜਗਿ ਕਰਾ ॥

मनु ह्वै राजवतार अवतरा ॥ मनु सिम्रितहि प्रचुर जगि करा ॥

Vishnu manifested himself as king Manu and propagated Manu Smriti in the world.

ਸਕਲ ਕੁਪੰਥੀ ਪੰਥਿ ਚਲਾਏ ॥ ਪਾਪ ਕਰਮ ਤੇ ਲੋਗ ਹਟਾਏ ॥੩॥

सकल कुपंथी पंथि चलाए ॥ पाप करम ते लोग हटाए ॥३॥

He brought all the corrupt persons on the right path and caused the people to become devoid of sinful actions.3.

ਰਾਜ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਭਯੋ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸ੍ਰਜੇ ਧਰਮ ਕੇ ਸਾਜਾ ॥

राज अवतार भयो मनु राजा ॥ सभ ही स्रजे धरम के साजा ॥

Vishnu incarnated himself as the king Manu and established all the actions of Dharma.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 496

Those banis are very few and mainly those that were taken out by Sodhak committee in 1897.

Dasam granth bir was always there in existence. There were two birs Anandpuri bir

and patna bir during Guru ji's time itself.

Third bir was by Bhai mani singh ji. There is no alteration involved.

lack of knowledge by Harjas kaur on dasam granth does not make it a suspect scripture.

It's completely controversial within the Panth as at least half of the Panth does not recognize it as bani regardless of what authorization is given it by SGPC and Akal Takhat. Moreover you cannot prove NO adulteration was involved as Singh Sabha is KNOWN for adulteration, and deletions, and distortions of texts.

Orgnizers of Singh Sabha Movement replaced the tradition of Five Weapons with that Of Five religion symbols(known as Five Ks)” is not Based on any Sikh or western Source.

There were 32 Dasam Granths circulating in the Amritsar’ area by 1890. The presently published Dasam Granth (1902) was created by the Sodhak Committee formed of British Cronies (1895-1897) to give a closer to the Granth floated by them in the late 18th century with the help of Nirmalas at Patna. The manuscript of this granth was implanted in the East India Library by Colebrook & Charles Wilkins and used by John Malcom in 1810, in his book “Sketch of the Sikhs”. Devnagri Dasam Granth (Presently in British Library, London) was written in February 1847 after the Sikhs lost the first Anglo-Sikh War (Second treaty with Lahore December 16, 1846 at Bhairowal when Britishers became virtual masters of Punjab). Treacherous Sardar Tej Singh was the chief of the regency council when this Devnagri Dasam Granth was created. In recognition of his services, the title of Raja was conferred on him on August 7, 1847. Story of Mani Singh compiling a Dasam Granth between 1721 to 1738 during his stay at Amritsar at the request of Mata Sundri is difficult to prove by evidence as the Dasam Granth reported to be compiled by him was found only in 1818 and the first part of this manuscript is a Bano Version of Guru Granth Sahib which makes it very unlikely to be the composition compiled by Mani Singh who compiled the Damdami version earlier.

The story of Mehtab Singh and Sukha Singh slaying Massa Ranghar and reward of successful mission keeping the various parts of Dasam Granth as a single volume cannot be supported by any historical evidence. Babadeep Singh is said to have compiled another manuscript of Dasam Granth in 1747 A.D. as reported by Giani Singh which ends at Asfotak Kabit. Only Sangrur Bir as studied by Padam & Jaggi Is reported to end with final title Asfotak Kabit .Therefore, probably it is the same Manuscript as reported by Giani Gian Singh . The first portion of This Manuscript is Guru Granth Sahib & 2nd portion is Dasam granth. This Manuscript Contains additional compositions Like Sansahar Sukhmana, Vaar Malkauns and Chakka Bhagoti Which Were edited & deleted by Sodhak Committee in 1897, therefore cannot make this manuscript authentic. By history Babadeep Singh bir/Sangrur bir appeared in 1857 only. The author has reviewed the history and text of Dasam Granth from 18th to 20th century and the summary of the findings is as follows:

* Historical analysis shows that 10th master may have made many Granths noted in the literature e.g. Smudsagar / Avtarlila / Vidyasagar Granth/Vidyadar Granth / Bachitar Natak /Satsai Granth. But no original Granth is available as they were lost in river and warfare.

* Bhai Mani Singh is reported to compile Dasam Granth between 1721-1738 at request of Mata Sundri but no original available. Photgrphs as published by Dr. Padam In His 3rd Edition reported to be in possession of Mata sundry Has no Histry of 18th&19th century.

* Controversy of Dasam Granth Authenticity started in 18th century and still continues

* By the end of 19th century (1895), 32 birs of Dasam Granth were in circle in Amritsar which were used by Sodhak Committee to finalize the final version of Dasam Patshahi GURU Granth Sahib sahib JI.

* . Lahore Singh Sabha With 118 associations DID NOT Recognize This new Dasam Pathshai Guru Granth Sahib in 1897. 3 articles published in Khalsa Akhbar Lahore against this committee on october 4th,25th&november 1st 1895.

* 1897 - Above bir has no significance among the Sikhs as not mentioned by Akali Ran Singh, 1905 in his book about Dasam Granth

* Kahan Singh Nabha in 1930 in Mahan Kosh does not mention 1897 sodhak Committee report or dasam granth published in 1902 based on this report. He talks about only two birs of Mani Singh & Sukha Singh Bir& requests more thorough work on this issue.

* Dharam Pal Ashta 1959 Based his Thesis On Sodhak committee Report of 1897 without confirming Authenticity of Dasam Granth Manusripts he used in his study.

* Historical analysis shows that no bir of Dasam Granth was seen in Punjab or New Delhi area ia 18th century, only Charles Wilkins in 1781 sees some second Granth in Patna which he reported appeared later and also reported that Guru Granth Sahib was the only sanctified and promulgated.

* Historical records show, Banda Singh, Nawab Kapur Singh, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, and Sikh Misals of the 18th century do not revere Dasam Granth. Baghel Singh built 8 hitorical Gurudwaras in New Delhi in 1784 and no evidence of Dasam Granth installed anywhere.

* Textual analysis of all known birs of Dasam Granth show variations of titles in Tatkara, variation of titles at start of composition and variation of contents. History of no DG birs goes before 1818.

* No original Khas patra available. Letter of Mani Singh is spurious

* Historical inconsistencies in Bachitar Natak. There are various scribes of Dasam Granth. Difficult to discuss orthography as no original is available.

* Ideological inconsistencies and ideological variations

* Heterogeneous Granth of different collections compiled by Sukha Singh and promoted by the British

* Dating inconsistencies. Wrong chronology, 7 compositions excluded in 1897 published Text

* Bachitar Natak, a manipulative collection with no mention of martyrdom of 5th Guru. Reverence of Adi Granth compiled in 1604 and as spiritual guru to the Sikhs since then. No mention of creation of Khalsa and Amrit ceremony.

* Malcom’s sketch of the Sikhs created a distorted Sikhism to diminish the spirit of the Sikhs and their government as proposed by William Franklin in 1803 in his account.Dasam Granth

How can you deny the well documented historical controversies and history of suppression, banning, deletions, missing birs, failure to permit external, unbiased, independant analysis of the preparation and sources for final version presented to the Khalsa Panth? Just like Manu Smritis which may originally have been from God, after modern adulterations it can no longer be trusted as reliable without further analysis. Particularly when neferious and questionable political machinations have altered, prepared and translated it.

At issue in particular:*

"Missing 16th pauri describing demolishing, temples, mosques, and tombs by 10th guru. (anti-Hindu & anti-Muslim missing in this translation but has been cited by Malcolm) p. 189-202

...Many stories in the translation distort Sikh History when you read the details. I will write the detail of these accounts in future because the subject is very important. (Excerpt from p. 33) Textual Analysis History and Academic Issues of DG

Who can establish with certainly what political ideology has been grafted into the "final version" of the Granth? Especially suspect is the political position of Singh Sabha:

Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha: The Reform and alteration of purataan Sanatan Sikhism

"In response to these developments, Sikhs initiated the Singh Sabha movement, which sought to revive Sikh doctrine in its pristine purity. The first unit, formed in Amritsar in 1873, was followed by a more radical branch in Lahore that, among other things, stressed that Sikhs were not Hindus...

Building on the early 18th-century understanding of Singh identity as the accepted Sikh ideal, Singh Sabha leaders undertook a major effort to make Sikhs aware of what they saw as correct doctrine and practice, using the newly arrived print culture to propagate Sikh history and literature...

They worked closely with the British administration, convincing them of the importance of treating the Sikhs as a distinct political community." Singh Sabha

Singh Sabha as a political movement came into being with help of the British to distinguish the identity of Sikhs as entirely separate from Hindus. This "anti-Hindu" position is responsible for the interpretations of bani as "rejecting Hindu Mat."

You think it is coincidence that they ban sanatan Granths and undermine them while promoting suspect and adulterated interpretations which reflect their anti-Hindu Singh Sabha ideal?

Who can say they worship and adore SAT who are filled with political propaganda to reject historical validity of Sanatan Sikh heritage which is what predated the Singh Sabha?

Sanatan Singh Sabha the one BEFORE Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha:

The basic belief of Sanatan Sikhism is inclusively, i.e., religious diversity is natural and Sikhism can be composed of a variety of different forms and practices, since boundaries are inherently fluid. The point of contention (with Tat Khalsa Sikhism) is that these practices are often inseparable from the practices evident in the Hindu and Muslim traditions. Another point of departure is when Sanatan Sikhs see Sikhism as an offshoot of Hinduism. This is offensive and misguided in the Tat Khalsa's point of view. Thus Sanatan doctrines are deeply embedded in the Hindu scriptures such as the Vedas, Puranas, Shastras, popular poetic epics, myths and legends, aswell as in the practices of idol worship, worship of tombs, temples and other sacred sites. There are also some Sufi, yogic and ascetic practices too. A key point of contention is the Hindu doctrine of the avataras (divine incarnations) where God is believed to incarnate in different forms at times when righteousness is about to be overcome by the forces of darkness.

Sanatan Sikhs would include the Udasis and Nirmalas and believe that the Amritdhari, Keshdhari and Sahajdhari are all Sikhs. Sanatan Sikhs also hold the Adi Granth and the Dasam Granth in equal esteem.

The first Singh Sabha was founded at Amritsar in 1873. It was essentially conservative and Sanatan ('eternal', almost synonymous with Hinduism)...

This caused a public uproar. The Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs all interpreted these colonial times as a threat to their traditions and started reformist movements. The Sikhs thus inaugurated the Singh Sabha to recover a distinctive Sikhism. With the advent of the print media the task of discovering, defining (and to some extent creating) "real" Sikhism was worked out in print, journals and tracts, religious assemblies, preaching and public discussion. This movement rapidly expanded and Sabhas were being formed all over the Panjab. However the main other Singh Sabha was founded in Lahore, and was more progressive and radical, and which eventually formed the essential traits of the Tat Khalsa orthodoxy. The Sanatan Sikhs (Udasis, Nirmalas and the Namdharis) were for the first time challenged and eventually marginalised.

Bhai Mani Singh (1673-1738) was a devout follower of Guru Gobind Singh who is traditionally thought to have wrote down the Adi Granth as Gobind Singh dictated it to him. He also believed to have collected Guru Gobind's work to form the Dasam Granth. The Dasam Granth has been understood as reflecting the Sanatan Sikh's world-view and the Adi Granth the Tat Khalsa's since the Dasam Granth contains many of the Hindu myths and goddesses, and incarnations of Siva, Vishnu and the Goddess. Sanatan Singh Sabha

If hindus created all that why did the sikhs do all the fighting? What were the hindus doing for 900 years? Can you prove that Guru Gobind Singh adopted anything off the rajputs?

At this point i would request the mods to step in and stop this hindu tarnishing of our faith and heritage. If it's allowed to carry on, some unfortunate home truths may have to be said to put these people in their place.

Sikhs did all the fighting? Really? And what about the entire Rajput and Jatt regiments that joined them? They didn't come from Hindu background? And once they became Khalsa Sikhs, disciples of the Guru, they stopped having any association with Hindu ancestry and heritage? And Banda Singh Bahadur, born and raised a Rajput AND a dera baba, he takes deeksha with Guru but he can no longer credibly be said to have been a Hindu from Hindu background?

You see, you're asking where were all the Hindus? And yet here clearly many became submerged into the Army of Guru Gobind Singh. That's not exactly NO Hindus fighting. That's just Hindus JOINING.

The Hindus like my and your ancestors were fighting and dying and being persecuted and becoming enslaved. Why? Because they faced overwhelming odds and not for any racial or ethnic deficiencies. The very same "Hindus" also won great battles when they had military advantage. Did not Guru Gobind Singh Ji lose battles and suffer defeats? The same was happening to all the Hindustanis for hundreds of years.

But why do you call as enemies the same Hindustani people who the Gurus and the Shishyas descended from and not the oppressive Mlecchas?

Proof that Guru Gobind Singh Ji adopted martial traditions of the Rajaputra clans?

Does the fact that they originate from the martial traditions of the Rajaputras for hundreds of years, and Rajputs joined Guru Gobind Singh's Army and he created an Order which incorporated those same traditions not mean anything?

Singh surname, where did it originate? If all the Hill Rajas had surname of Singh, who were Shaiva Hindus (not Vaishnav), and then Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Khalsa made up of all castes adopted the royal surname, it is a unique statement of equality, but it is not a new invention. It was NOT unique to Khalsa Sikhs as all the Hill Rajas had the same surname.

So the Singh surname has an origin in HINDU Rajaputras. It is not unique to Sikhs.

Uncut kesas and jura. Veer ji, this is Shiva Ji's swaroop. The jura is tied over the area of dasm dwara/sahasranama chakra. It is a yogic practice. You jap the Naam Gurmantr and it puts the vibration of the sound current into the hairs forming a mudra/seal over the mind/mann on the spot of the dasm duar.

That comes from ancient HINDU yoga practice.

Whether or not any other religion keeps kesas and beards, how many of them tie jura?

ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦਿਸਟਿ ਨਾਦ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

jaa kee dhisatt naadh liv laagai ||1|| rehaao ||

by His Glance of Grace, we are lovingly attuned to the Sound-current of the Naad. ||1||Pause||

ਭਾਠੀ ਗਗਨੁ ਸਿੰਙਿਆ ਅਰੁ ਚੁੰਙਿਆ ਕਨਕ ਕਲਸ ਇਕੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

bhaathee gagan sinn(g)iaa ar chunn(g)iaa kanak kalas eik paaeiaa ||

The Tenth Gate of my crown chakra is the distilling fire, and the channels of

the Ida and Pingala are the funnels, to pour in and empty out the golden vat.

ਤਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਧਾਰ ਚੁਐ ਅਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਰਸ ਮਹਿ ਰਸਨ ਚੁਆਇਆ ॥੨॥

this mehi dhhaar chuai ath niramal ras mehi rasan chuaaeiaa ||2||

Into that vat, there trickles a gentle stream of the most sublime and pure

essence of all distilled essences. ||2||

ਏਕ ਜੁ ਬਾਤ ਅਨੂਪ ਬਨੀ ਹੈ ਪਵਨ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਸਾਜਿਆ ॥

eaek j baath anoop banee hai pavan piaalaa saajiaa ||

Something wonderful has happened-the breath has become the cup.

ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨੁ ਹੈ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੩॥

theen bhavan mehi eaeko jogee kehahu kavan hai raajaa ||3||

In all the three worlds, such a Yogi is unique. What king can compare to him? ||3||

~SGGS Ji ang 92

Adh Chand worn with tora over a dastaar comes from Chandi the moon, and has Siv linga through it in form of the kadga/Khanda representing attainment of gyaan that cuts throu Maya. If it is NOT a Chand, why is it called clearly Chand? And if it is a Chand, it has yogic associations with Shiv swaroop. It is reflecting the union of Shiva and Shakti and worn at level where Tilak is worn, at third eye, for insight/wisdom. This is clearly part of Shiv roop in form of trishula which comes from Shaiva yoga representing the Ida, Pingala and Shushmana nadis.

Do Muslims go around wearing tilak or tying hair in a jura or have yogic principles of nadis and chakrs discussed in their scriptures? No! Because all this comes from HINDU heritage. The Akali Sikh is a YOGI and supposed to be Master of the three worlds. His roop reflects enlightenment attained by yogic practices of Naama Japa and sas giras Simran/pranayam to stimulate the kundalini shakti and open the Dasam Duara through form of kechari mudra where the "tongue" tastes the amrit nectar and becomes a "cup."

ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੋ ਧਰਤਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਉਲਘਿ ਪਇਆਣਾ ।

paunu paanee baisantaro dharati akaasu ulaghi paiaanaa|

Gurmukh goes beyond air, water, fire, earth and sky.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਵਿਰੋਧੁ ਲਘਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਵਿਹਾਣਾ ।

kaamu krodhu virodhu|aghi|obhu mohu ahankaaru vihaanaa|

Resisting lust and anger he crosses the greed, infatuation and ego.

ਸਤਿ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਦਇਆ ਧਰਮੁ ਅਰਥੁ ਸੁ ਗਰੰਥੁ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ।

sati santokh daiaa dharamu aradu su garandu panch paravaanaa|

He espouses truth, contentment, compassion, dharma and fortitude.

ਖੇਚਰ ਭੂਚਰ ਚਾਚਰੀ ਉਨਮਨ ਲਘਿ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਬਾਣਾ ।

khaychar bhoochar chaacharee unaman|aghi agochar baanaa|

Getting above of the khechar bhuchar chachar, unman and agochar (all yogic postures) mudras he concentrates upon the One Lord.

ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੋ ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਘਨਘੋਰ ਨੀਸਾਣਾ ।

panchaain paramaysaro panch sabad ghanaghor neesaanaa|

He beholds God in five (select persons) and the five sounds of five words become his special marks.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪੰਚ ਭੂਆਤਮਾ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਸੁਹਾਣਾ ।

guramukhi panch bhooaatamaa saadhasangati mili saadh suhaanaa|

Antahkaran, the basis of all five external elements is cultivated and cultured by gurmukh in the holy congregation.

ਸਹਜ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਨ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥੫॥

sahaj samaadhi n aavan jaanaa ॥5॥

This way immersing in undisturbed trance he gets liberated from the cycle of transmigration.

~Vaar 7 Pauri 5 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

ਰਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਤਬ ਮਥੀਐ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥੨॥

rasanaa naam japahu thab mathheeai ein bidhh anmrith paavahu ||2||

If you chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord ,with your tongue,

then the curd will be churned. In this way, the Ambrosial Nectar is obtained. ||2||

ਮਨੁ ਸੰਪਟੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਤ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਭਾਵਨ ਪਾਤੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਕਰੇ ॥

man sanpatt jith sath sar naavan bhaavan paathee thripath karae ||

Wash your mind in the pool of Truth, and let it be the vessel of the Lord;

let this be your offering to please Him.

ਪੂਜਾ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜੇ ਸੇਵੇ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਰਵਤੁ ਰਹੈ ॥੩॥

poojaa praan saevak jae saevae einh bidhh saahib ravath rehai ||3||

That humble servant who dedicates and offers his life, and who serves in this way,

remains absorbed in his Lord and Master. ||3||

~SGGS Ji ang 728

This Raja/Sehaja Yoga which is discussed in Gurbani is a very ancient system. It is not unique to Sikhs.

Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji invent the weapons and the Gatka/Shastar-Vidya traditions which the Rajputs practiced for hundreds of years? NO! He merely adopted them for his Singhs.

There is whole host of paintings depicting the khanda being worn by Rajput kings throughout the medieval era. In Rajput traditions the khanda was plied with both hands and was double-edged. It was used usually by foot-soldiers and by nobles who were unhorsed in battle.

According to some, the design was improved by Prithiviraj Chauhan.[citation needed] He added a back spine on the blade to add more strength. He also got the blade wider and flatter, making it a formidable cutting - slashing weapon. The new design proved very effective against the leather inlaid chain mail armour of Muslim invaders. It also gave a good advantage to infantry over light cavalry of Muslim and other enemy armies.

In the medieval era and with the Islamic invasions, a new type of light and flexible sword was needed along with the new cavalry forces that came to dominate Indian military history. Thus the Sikhs developed the talwar, a single-edged curved sword, which became the archetypal Rajput and Sikh sword.[citation needed]

The khanda became the weapon of last resort. Rajput warriors in battle wielded it with both hands and swung it over their head when surrounded and outnumbered by the enemy. It was in this manner that they traditionally committed an honourable last stand rather than be captured.

Even today venerating the Khanda on the occasion of Dussehra is de rigueur for Rajputs.

The khanda and related Indian straight swords are generally used in Indian theatre and art to represent the weapons of the ancient period of Indian history. Some religious iconography, such as statues of Kali, feature it. Straight swords are used in the classical Kathakali dance form, and the related Indian martial art Kalarippayattu.Khanda

Sikhs did not invent the Talwar. That is why it says citation needed. But neither did the Rajputs. In this case, the Talwar comes from the Mughals.

A talwar, talwaar, or tulwar (Hindi: तलवार, Urdu: تلوار, Bengali: তলোয়ার) is a type of curved sword, equivalent to the European sabre (or saber), originating in medieval India dating back to at least the 13th century.

The talwar is an Indian sword influenced by the Persian shamshir and the Turkish kilic. The difference between them is that the blade of a talwar is wider than the blade of a shamshir, and lacks the expanded yelman (false-edge) of the kilij. Due to its growing popularity in the Mughal Empire, the talwar was also produced in 19th Century Afghanistan in form of the "Afghani talwar," or pulwar. Late examples often had European-made blades, set into distinctive Indian-made hilts.

The talwar may have largely replaced the unique khanda sword of ancient India as the sword of choice in medieval Indian armies. Sikh warriors continued to wield the khanda, a dedicated cutting sword, in battle and it is often used in Gatka a Sikh martial art. The khanda became the weapon of last resort. But the tulwar was more frequently used.

India also has several unique bladed weapons, entirely native to the subcontinent. The distinctive looking Indian wootz steel was known across Asia as uniquely flexible and strong, and was used to construct many of these weapons.

Again gatka was not invented by the Sikhs, it comes from ancient Shastar Vidya which is written about in Puranic times and associated with the Rajput clans.

Sanskrit terms for "martial art" include dhanurveda (from dhanus "bow" and veda "knowledge", literally the "science of archery" in Puranic literature, later applied to martial arts in general[1]) śastravidyā (from vidyā "learning , knowledge" and śastra) "sword, weapon", literally "knowledge of the sword".[2] The Vishnu Purana text describes dhanurveda as one of the traditional eighteen branches of "applied knowledge" or upaveda.[3] The historical form of wrestling is called mallayuddha in the north and malyutham in the south. In contemporary India, major martial arts styles practiced are Kalaripayattu in Southern India (an umbrella term for diverse armed and unarmed styles), and Pehlwani wrestling in Northern India. Notable regional styles include thang-ta from Manipur and gatka from the Panjab region...

Martial arts were not exclusive to the kshatriya caste, though the warrior class used them more extensively. The 8th century text Kuvalaymala by Udyotanasuri recorded fighting techniques being taught at ghatika and salad educational institutions, where non-ksatria students from throughout the subcontinent (particularly from South India, Rajasthan and Bengal) "were learning and practicing archery, fighting with sword and shield, with daggers, sticks, lances, and with fists, and in duels (niuddham)"...

Martial arts are often associated with avatars in the Puranas.Shastar Vidya

Can you show where any of these things were inventions only of Guru Gobind Singh Ji or heritage belonging only to his shishyas? And that he coming from solar dyansty of Rajaputra (sons of Kings) Khatri Kshattriya heritage did not learn them as part of his heritage along with his tutoring by Sanskrit scholars?

Khatri gotras are divided into three major groups; Baraghar, Bawanji and Sarin. These divisions were reported by Emperor Akbar's close adviser Abu'l Fazal in his book Ain-i-Akbari (compiled in 1590). These grouping are said to been around at the time of Ala-uddin Khilji (1296-1316).

Bhai Gurdas (b. AD 1551) in his, "Varan Bhai Gurdas Ji", Vaar 8 - Pauri 10 (Khatri jatan) mentions: barahi, bavanjahi, Pavadhe, pachadhia, phalian, khokharainu, chaurotari and serin sections.

The family names mentioned above have existed for long time. We know that the four gots of the Sikh gurus have existed at least since the 15th century CE:

1. Guru Nanak: Bedi

2. Guru Angad: Trehan

3. Guru Amardas: Bhalla

4. Remaining seven: Sodhi

The historical reasons for these divisions need research. A regional clan grouping is the Kukhrain grouping (see below). Yet another grouping is one associated with the ten Sikh gurus (Bedi, Trehan, Bhalla, and Sodhi).

Regionally Churamani, Nanda, Khullar, Jerath, Chopra and Vig were particularly connected with Ludhiana; Bahl, Kapoor, Mehra, Seth, Beri, Sencher and Dhir with Jagraon ; Batte, Sondhi and Karir with Machhiwara and Bahlolpur ; Sehgal and Thapar with Raikot; and Had and Cham with Khanna...

The origin of many clans and surnames is not exactly clear. It is possible that some of the clans among the Khatris, Rajputs and Jats, along with other similar subgroups, are somehow related...

Kukhran (also spelt Kukhrain) Khatris are a regional grouping of ten subcastes of Punjabi Khatris originally from the town of Bhera in the Jech doab (Jhelum - Chenab interfluve) region of Sargodha district of Pakistani Punjab. In keeping with Khatri traditions, Bhera was an important trading outpost on the road to Kabul, and a 'taksal' (mint) during the reign of Ranjit Singh. Kukhrans are Aryan and Vedic peoples and have originally followed Hinduism, however a significant number adapted Sikhism during the 18th and 19th centuries. This, and also because many Hindu Kukhran families, as well as other Khatri clans, raised at least one Sikh son after the formation of the Khalsa in 1699, resulted in Kukhran family names, as well as other Khatri clan names, being present in both Hindu and Sikh communities worldwide.Khatri

"War in the region hurts China's main goals at the moment, which are economic growth.

In any case: "The article in question appears to be an expression of individual opinion and does not accord with the officially stated position of China on bilateral relations conveyed to us on several occasions, including at the highest level, most recently by the State Councillor Dai Bingguo during the visit to India last week," he (Indian Minister)said, reacting to the analyst's views."

Isn't that what China said before the surprise attack in 1962?

And if that's the case, who's funding and arming the Naxals?

"My source for information on the Vienna case is the Ravidass Sabha, UK."

That is not a verifiable link we can all cross-confirm. If you say your sources are from downtown London, Ravidass temple in the words of Sant Ravidass Himself! What does that mean?

Link please, or it's unverifiable hearsay.

Besides, you said they had easily recognizable Chamar names. Well, what are they and where is the verifiable link?

re hindusikh brotherhood forum.

in order to maintain Hindu-Sikh unity and brotherhood, you know, the kind that harjas kaur loves, this is what truehindu posted:

The issue is about the validity of Sikh-Hindu Unity, and not merely some forum. Besides of which there are a thousand insulting idiots who are neither representative of Sikhi or Hindu Dharm, as I've said before. My challenge was for denouncing Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts by comments on this forum, and here I am told:

"We Sikhs are not Snakes but we have memmory of snake . Just Like snake we never forgive our enemy. Start this topic inSikh Sangat forum u will get the reply in the language u people understand."

Why blame me personally for every injustice and evil thing your minds can imagine? What did I have to do with it? Do you think I go around driving tanks in my spare time waiting to park it in some Gurdwara? You cannot forgive? Where is the offense? This is the propaganda to make Hindu religion into Hindustani politics because ignorant thugs and corrupt political leaders wanted to destroy communal harmony.

But I am not guilty of some crime against you where rude and insulting speech intended to abuse my person is some representation Of Khalsa Sikhi either.

"paleface Hindutva goon needs to teach us poor simple brown folk that we've been wrong all these years."

Actually, I'm brown, probably darker than you are, and not some "paleface," per your fantasies. My family are Romas and whose language roots are traceable to Punjabi hence originating from North India and related to Rajputs, Jatts, Doms and Banjaras. My ancestors fought in the wars against the Mughals. Why would I claim to be one?

ਧੋਤੀ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੈ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਧਾਨੁ ਮਲੇਛਾਂ ਖਾਈ ॥

dhhothee ttikaa thai japamaalee dhhaan malaeshhaan khaaee ||

They wear their loin cloths, apply ritual frontal marks to their foreheads, and carry their rosaries, but they eat food with the Muslims.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਤੁਰਕਾ ਭਾਈ ॥

anthar poojaa parrehi kathaebaa sanjam thurakaa bhaaee ||

O Siblings of Destiny, you perform devotional worship indoors, but read the Islamic sacred texts, and adopt the Muslim way of life.

ਛੋਡੀਲੇ ਪਾਖੰਡਾ ॥

shhoddeelae paakhanddaa ||

Renounce your hypocrisy!

ਨਾਮਿ ਲਇਐ ਜਾਹਿ ਤਰੰਦਾ ॥੧॥

naam laeiai jaahi tharandhaa ||1||

Taking the Naam, the Name of the Lord, you shall swim across. ||1||

~SGGS Ji ang 471

ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥

kaajee thai kavan kathaeb bakhaanee ||

O Qazi, which book have you read?

ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

parrhath gunath aisae sabh maarae kinehoon khabar n jaanee ||1|| rehaao ||

Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥

sakath sanaehu kar sunnath kareeai mai n badhougaa bhaaee ||

Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥

jo rae khudhaae mohi thurak karaigaa aapan hee katt jaaee ||2||

If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥

sunnath keeeae thurak jae hoeigaa aourath kaa kiaa kareeai ||

If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥

aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hindhoo hee reheeai ||3||

She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥

shhaadd kathaeb raam bhaj bourae julam karath hai bhaaree ||

Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥

kabeerai pakaree ttaek raam kee thurak rehae pachihaaree ||4||8||

Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8||

~SGGS Ji ang 477

"By the way, we jatts are the descendants of Hunnic invaders who crashed into the punjab at a later date than the races you mentioned."

So you're saying Jatts are Mughals-Mongols. So a Jatt is really a Thurak then? And the language of Jatts is related to Turkic and Gothic or perhaps Iranian?

Jatts have closest association to Rajputs as even sharing same surnames and sometimes even pinds. I have yet to meet a Jatt with Iranian surname. So Jatts are mixed with Persian enculturated descendents of Chinese-Mongolian Uigur Huns now? I don't believe it.

Muslim Uighurs, racial descendants of the Huns, showing clear Mongolian ancestry. Do Jatts even look like them, especially their genetic HAIR distribution. Err, no. Not at all.

Rajputs

Uighur, direct descendant of Huns, looks genetically just like Huns, but not at all like Jatts.

The Uighurs, Huns, and Mughals have caucasian racial admixture which indeed is ancient. It's related to these unusual Celtic (often blonde and red-haired) mummies found in China known as Tocharians. They who fled persecutions in Western Europe, having nothing to do with any "Aryan invasions." They were a variant of Buddhist and Gnostic Christian and wrote in Brahmi script. The Tibetan Buddhists still have scriptures which their lamas recorded from meetings with these people. Gnostic Christianity was unlike modern Christianity and believed in reincarnation, devatay, etc. Bhang and objects of Shamanistic practice have been found with these mummies. So a Vedic-Buddhist religious influence exists as well as association with Tantrism. This puts them squarely into a Sanatan category per heritage and belief structure.

Tocharian man with Buddhist monks in China.

"the relationship between the two being similar to that between Classical Chinese and Mandarin. It must be noted however that the lack of a secular corpus in Tocharian A is by no means definite, due to the fragmentary preservation of Tocharian texts in general.

Most of the script in Tocharian was a derivative of the Brahmi alphabetic syllabary (abugida) and is referred to as slanting Brahmi, However a smaller amount was written in the Manichaean script in which Manichaean texts were recorded [3] [4]. It soon became apparent that a large proportion of the manuscripts were translations of known Buddhist works in Sanskrit and some of them were even bilingual, facilitating decipherment of the new language. Besides the Buddhist and Manichaean religious texts, there were also monastery correspondence and accounts, commercial documents, caravan permits, and medical and magical texts, and one love poem. Many Tocharians embraced Manichaean dualism or Buddhism."

"Common Brahmi, Devanagri and Tocharian Alphabets

Tusharas or Tocharians are Indo European people found settled in ancient times in current Xinjiang NW Autonomous part of China, located in Tarim_basin, SW of Mongolia and North of Tibet. Historians have found mummies of IE origin in this place but now the population looks Mongoloids, as Mongols, Huns, and Kushans ruled over this place. Kushans who ruled India, were supposedly related to Tocharians...

Also Shaivism and Tantra came from A-sur(y)as as per the book referenced in the posting, and we all know that Tantra and Shaivism had a strong presence in Kashmir, Tibet and Mongolia, where Hindu Idols have been found. So is it possible that the Huns got their name from this background? It was a very common practice for Christian Roman Empire to call the Proto Indo Europeans as Pagans and Barbarians, before they were conquered and converted. That is why you see this epithet given to Atilla, Huns and Germans!

Anyway, coming to the main topic, the Devanagari Alphabet sounds are same as Tachurian, and the script is based on Brahmi and looks somewhat closer to Tibetan, Nepalase and Bengali scripts in some letters! We can now see why the relic remains of animal sacrifice in worships, which is from the "Tamas" or "Black" version of Tantra, is to be seen in Tibet, Nepal, Assam and Bengal."Brahmi, Devanagri and Tocharian

Tocharians intermingled with Mongolian groups. The inter-mingled groups such as Uigurs reflect strong genetic bias towards Mongolian racial types and later were converted to Islam. Whereas the Jatts resemble more strongly the Tocharian racial types. So while you may be right in general about association with people who were "Huns," there remained a racial and cultural distinction even back then. Moreover, the relationship to Tocharians is reflected in heritage of Buddhism and Tantric Kashmiri Shaivism, and Brahmi/Devanagri scripts and thus relational to Sanskrit more than any known association to Iranian or even Turkic languages.

"A later group of Tocharians were the Kushans and maybe some Iranian tribes of the Hephthalites whose Iranian population also settled in modern Afghanistan, North-Eastern Iran, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Turkestan, whereas the nomadic Turkic tribes were defeated by Bahram Gur and the Gokturks, who pushed them over the Hindukush mountains to Sindh (Pakistan) and North-West India."Tocharians

Jatts have more in common with Tocharians as an admixture geographically, genetically and even linguistically then they do with Mongol Turks, Uighurs and/or Mughal descendents of mixed race Eurasian Huns and Persians. So the Jatts are related to ancient Shaivite martial groups of Caucasian ancestry who were once rulers of India, Rajaputras and intermarried with Dravidians giving them darker skin and hair colorations which predominate but still showing the lighter caucasian racial variant. Now there are different lineages within Rajput, but Jatts relationally are a recognized offshoot of some Rajput clans and bearing Rajput surnames. The other strong correlation with Jatt-Rajput culture is actually the Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, because so much of the martial tradition of the Khalsa is predated by Rajput customs and practices, including keeping kesas, worshipping shastars, calling as Singhs, and belief that spiritual mission in life is defending Dharama. There is even historical association with tantric practices of animal sacrifices.

Jhatka or Chatka meat (Hindi झटका, Punjabi: ਝਟਕਾ jhaṭkā, from Sanskrit ghātaka "killing") is meat from an animal which has been killed by a single strike of a sword or axe to sever the head, as opposed to Jewish kosher or Islamic halal in which the animal is killed by ritually slicing the throat.

This kills the animal immediately because the spinal cord is severed, and the blood flow to the brain is stopped almost instantly, causing brain death within seconds. Therefore the method is adopted as being the less painful to the animal than other methods.

Hindus and Jhatka

Historically and currently, those Hindus who eat meat prescribe jhatka meat. This is the a common method of slaughter if animal sacrifices are made to some Hindu deities, however Vedic rituals such as Agnicayana involved the strangulation of sacrificial goats. Shaivite Hindus engage in jhatka methods as part of religious dietary laws, as influenced by the Shakti doctrines, which permit the consumption of meat (except beef, which is universally proscribed in Hinduism). The Vaishnavite denomination of Hinduism disallows the consumption of meat, and their relative demographic predominance over the Shaivites leads to the stereotype that all Hindus are vegetarian. During Durga Puja and Kali Puja among Shaivite Hindus in Punjab, Bengal and Kashmir, Jhatka meat is the required meat for practising Shaivite Hindus.

Jhatka Meat and Sikhs

Those Sikhs who eat meat are recommended to eat Jhatka meat,[1] as they do not believe any ritual gives meat a spiritual virtue (ennobles the flesh).[2][3] Another reason Sikhs do not eat halal meat is due to determining to change to it being a prerequisite for conversion to Islam.Jhatka

KAL the Bagwati who is the Sarbloh (which holds the shakti) Khadga-Khanda/Sword demanding sacrifice of chelas. She is an emanation of Chandi/Durga. And the Shakti/feminine reflection of the Divine Power of SadaShiva (unioin of opposites, male and female) the Primordial nirgun Truth-Supreme Consciousness-Bliss (Sat-Chit-Ananda).

"The Tocharians, living along the Silk Road, had contacts with the Chinese, Persians, Indian and Turkic tribes. They might be the same as, or were related to, the Indo-European Yuezhi who fled from their settlements in the eastern Tarim Basin after attacks by the Xiongnu in the 2nd century BC (Shiji Chinese historical Chronicles, Chap. 123) and expanded south to Bactria and northern India to form the Kushan Empire.

The Tocharians who remained in the Tarim Basin adopted Buddhism, which, like their alphabet, came from northern India in the first century of the 1st millennium, through the proselytism of Kushan monks. The Kushans and the Tocharians seem to have played a part in the Silk Road transmission of Buddhism to China.[citation needed] Many apparently also practised some variant of Manichaeanism...

Sanskrit literature in numerous instances refers to the Tocharians as Tukhāra (also Tuṣāra, Tuḥkhāra, Tukkhāra).

The Atharavaveda-Parishishta[7] associates them with the Sakas, Greeks and Bactrians.[8] It also juxtaposes the Kambojas with the Bactrians.[9] This shows they probably were neighbors in the Transoxian region. The Rishikas are said to be same people as the Yuezhi.[10] The Kushanas or Kanishkas are also the same people.[11]

M. A. Stein proposed that the Tukharas were the same as the Yuezhi.[12] P. C. Bagchi holds that the Yuezhi, Tocharioi and Tushara were identical.[13].

The Parama Kambojas of the Trans-Pamirs, mentioned in the Mahabharata are said to be related to the Rishikas [14] who are placed in Sakadvipa (or Scythia).[15] B. N. Puri takes the Kambojas to be a branch of the Tukharas.[16] Some scholars state that the Kambojas were a branch of the Yuezhi.[17]"

Tocharians

"The name Mughal is derived from the original homelands of the Timurids, the Central Asian steppes once conquered by Genghis Khan and hence known as Moghulistan, "Land of Mongols". Although early Mughals spoke the Chagatai language and maintained Turko-Mongol practices, they were essentially Persianized.[9] They transferred the Persian literature and culture[9] to India, thus forming the base for the Indo-Persian culture."Mughals

"Hunnic Empire was an empire founded by the Huns. The Huns were a confederation of Eurasian tribes, in the main probably speaking a Turkic language, but likely with elements of other linguistic groups, from the steppes of Central Asia."

"Hunnic has been considered as related to the extinct Bulgar and to present-day Chuvash in various schemes of genetic relationship. Today these languages are usually classified, with Khazar and Turkic Avar, as members of the Oghuric branch of the Turkic language family.[4]Hunnic Language

Now, recognizing that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was himself descended from Khatris, what did He say about his tribal origination in Sri Dasm Granth? He says he is from the Solar dynsaty descended from Ram of Avodhya through Luv and Kush. Why write that? Why claim that if there was no Rajput ancestry? That's the kind of lineage/heritage a Rajput clan preserves. What in this history is like Huns/Mughals/Thuraks?

Just because you fight with Rajputs doesn't disprove descent from them or relationship to their traditions. There were many recognized traitors among the Rajputs who allied with and intermarried their daughters with the Mughals for land and power. There are other Rajputs who forever boycott them in marriages for that reason. Did not Khalsa Singhs also betray and fight against the Guru?

"The Minhas and Bhatti Rajput clans were extremely powerful during the time of the Hindu Shahi dynasty of Kabul and ruled over many small kingdoms extending from eastern Afghanistan through the Jammu/Sialkot areas of West Punjab and up to the Jalandhar/Kangra area of eastern Punjab.According to Farishta, during the second battle of Tarain between Prithviraj Chauhan and Mohammad Ghori in 1192, Chauhan's left flank consisted of Hindu Pathan cavalry. It is said that this Hindu Pathan cavalry was led by a minhas raja from the northwest.

A famous Manhas/Minhas in history was Baba Chamliyal also called Duleep Singh Minhas, a warrior saint, whose Samadhi (place of cremation) is still visited by hundreds and thousands of Pakistanis and Indians each year in the month of June. The Mela (fair) which is held in honour of Baba Chamliyal, was celebrated for the 317th time on Thursday, June 22, 2006 as the man-made boundary between India and Pakistan lost its importance momentarily and people from both sides participated in the mela with vigour.

Banda Bahadur, the famous disciple of Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh Guru and the founder of the Khalsa Brotherhood was born into a Minhas Rajput family in Rajouri in the Jammu region. Banda Bahadur was an accomplished warrior-general, who almost destroyed Mughal presence in eastern Punjab and arguably created the first Sikh State.

Minhas villages in Punjab(India) Anshupal & Baba Mati Dev, both grandsons of Biram Dev Minhas, a commander with first Mughal emperor, Babar established the Minhas clan villages of Daroli Kalan , Droli Khurd, Damunda, Padhiana & Paldi in East Punjab around the year 1530. Almost all these villages are located approximately seven kilometres from the town of Adampur except the village of Paldi, which is in the Garhshankar Teshil in the Hoshiarpur District.

The villages of Manko and Rajowal adjacent to Droli Kalan are inhabited by the Dhillon, Nijjar and Sandhu Jat clans. The village of Haripur which is just 2.5 kilometres from Adampur, also initially belonged to Haria Singh Minhas of the village of Damunda . This village was however surrendered, because of the criminal charges brought up against Haria Singh of molesting labourer women, on the direction of Lehna Singh Majithia, the in charge of Droli Kalan during the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Today, although the owners of lands in these villages are mostly Jats because of the enforcement of new Land Laws by the British in the year 1920, the land revenue record even today stands in the name of the Minhas Rajputs of Droli, Padhiana & Damunda.

Minhas Rajputs in Sikh history The first Doaba Rajput to join the army of Guru Gobind Singh was Sangat Singh Minhas of Padhiana in the Jalandhar district, who joined the Guru’s forces with his two brothers and many other Rajput chiefs. A few months later, the Subedar(Governor) of Lahore sent a small group of armed men to collect tax dues from the Rajput Hill Chiefs in whose territory, Anandpur was located under the command of Alaf Khan. The chiefs asked Guru Gobind for help."Daroli Kalan

Entire Rajput, and Jatt clans joined the Khalsa brotherhood. Is this not so? So how does this make them related to the Mughals?

I already wrote that I do not accept uncritically the Dasm Granth presented to us by the SGPC because there is a history of manipulations and distortions and deletions of controversial texts.

You are making our scripture suspect by making above statement. That is against the guidelines of this forum.You can carry out your malice on a Hindu forum but should not indulge in malicious propaganda on a sikh forum.A few months ago you were an avid supporter of Dasam Granth sahib and now it has become a suspect scripture for you. I can see the fervour of a new convert.

Entire Khalsa Panth is embroiled in a debate on this subject and Dasm Granth does not have full Panthic acceptance as being bani of Tenth Master.

I personally believe that it is bani. I simply do not trust the SGPC edition which is bandied before the public. For one thing independant scholars are not allowed to access the original birs and pothis relied on for it's construction. Second the 32 birs seem to have gone missing. While I do not disbelieve in Shri Dasm Granth, I simply don't believe it hasn't been altered by SGPC and Singh Sabha scholars over the preceding decades before it was presented to the public.

China has intelligence report which was exposed saying they planned to break India into 30 different states by supporting independance movements and militancies.