HarjasDevi

How do photos of the peaceful demonstration indicate a link to Pakistani or Chinese influence, which was the question you attempted to answer?

Now you are mixing apples and oranges. I linked China to Sikh militant groups because the weapons captured during operatin bluestar were of Chinese manufacture and because Sikh militant groups in Pakistan have been linked working with jihadi groups. And this "peaceful march" waving posters of Babbar Khalsa leaders is only promoting terrorist militancy and targeting sanatan Sikhs who do not conform to the Singh Sabha standard definition.

You said they had Chamar names. What are those names if the indistinguishable Sikh names printed in the media are false? And what are your sources? Dal Khalsa? You say the media has lost interest. No it hasn't. But the Viennese government is extremely silent about the case. The current media spin by Tat Khalsas is to blame the Chamars while justifying the shooting at the same time. An illogical redundancy without any proof whatsoever.

"The text of the crucial Vikramaditya inscription, found inscribed on a gold dish hung inside the Kaaba shrine in Mecca, is found recorded on page 315 of a volume known as ‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ treasured in the Makhtab-e-Sultania library in Istanbul, Turkey. Rendered in free English the inscription says:

"Fortunate are those who were born (and lived) during king Vikram’s reign...

That the ancient Indian empires may have extended up to the eastern boundaries of Arabia until Vikramaditya and that it was he who for the first time conquered Arabia. Because the inscription says that king Vikram who dispelled the darkness of ignorance from Arabia.

1. That, whatever their earlier faith, King Vikrama’s preachers had succeeded in spreading the Vedic (based on the Vedas, the Hindu sacred scriptures)) way of life in Arabia.

Was the Kaaba Originally a Hindu Temple?

Clear Vedic influence.

"As the pilgrim proceeds towards Mecca, he is asked to shave his head and beard

and to don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless sheets of white cloth.

One is to be worn round the waist and the other over the shoulders.

Both these rites are remnants of the old Vedic practice of entering Hindu temples clean-

and with holy seamless white sheets."

The Kaaba an ancient Hindu temple dedicated to King Vikramditya who worshiped Shiva. End of story.

"Do you believe shani to be different from Saturn. Has 'Sanatana Dharma' a monopoly over the planets."

The King Vikramditya inscription in the Kaa'ba is the give away. Can you erase that and pretend there was no Vedic influence?

"Also, the Chand you depicted several posts ago represents the Khalsa - it is comprised of a Tegh and Degh."

The logo or symbol of 'Aad Chand' is basically 'Ardh Chandra' (Half Moon). The Sanskrit word 'Ardh' (Half) is written 'Addh' in Punjabi. The term 'Addh' is transformed into 'Aad'. The Sanskrit word 'Chandra' (Moon) becomes 'Chand' in Punjabi. Thus, 'Aad Chand' is nothing but 'Ardh Chandra'.

For thousands of years, the symbol of 'Ardh Chandra' existed in Hindu religion. For example, please the image below: -

A picture of Natraj's statue, which is hundreds years old, even before the birth of Sikhism.

Please compare this image to Nihangs' 'Aad Chand' and draw your own conclusion.

Amrit Cares

It's a sword shaped like a complete linga penetrating a Chand, moon, not a tegh, kettle. It forms a trishula which according to Shaiva Sutras represents the Ida, Pingala and Shushmana nadis, central to achieving mukti. And it is worn at the Agni chakr/3rd eye.

Anyways we cannot just go around calling things what we please to fit them in with our own belief system and then justify distortions of truth by saying that each person is allowed an opinion on reality. There are such things as facts. I am sure Shankar Bhagwan would not appreciate you attaching his auspiscious name to symbols that do not belong to him. Although Shani has a dear relationship with Shiva the Linga is a symbol exclusively of Mahesh and not everything that looks like a linga is not allowed to be one.

It is a linga preserved in a yoni, anyone can clearly see that. Why were pre-Islamic Arabians worshiping Shani? Because King Ashoka conquered a region all the way up to the Arabian peninsula which is why there are Buddha statues in Afghanistan and some few remnants of sanatan religious practices in Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1O6Om-5ark

"The first modern edition of Sayar-ul-Okul was printed and published in Berlin in 1864. A subsequent edition is the one published in Beirut in 1932. The collection is regarded as the most important and authoritative anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. It throws considerable light on the social life, customs, manners and entertainment modes of ancient Arabia.

But the OKAJ fair was far from a carnival. It provided a forum for the elite and the learned to discuss the social, religious, political, literary and other aspects of the Vedic culture then pervading Arabia. Sayar-ul-Okul asserts that the conclusion reached at those discussions were widely respected throughout Arabia.

Mecca, therefore, followed the Varanasi tradition (of India) of providing a venue for important discussions among the learned while the masses congregated there for spiritual bliss. The principal shrines at both Varanasi in India and at Mecca in Arvasthan (Arabia) were Siva temples. Even to this day ancient Mahadev (Siva) emblems can be seen. It is the Shankara (Siva) stone that Muslim pilgrims reverently touch and kiss in the Kaaba.

Arabic tradition has lost trace of the founding of the Kaaba temple. The discovery of the Vikramaditya inscription affords a clue. King Vikramaditya is known for his great devotion to Lord Mahadev (Siva). At Ujjain (India), the capital of Vikramaditya, exists the famous shrine of Mahankal, i.e., of Lord Shankara (Siva) associated with Vikramaditya. Since according to the Vikramaditya inscription he spread the Vedic religion, who else but he could have founded the Kaaba temple in Mecca?" Prince Goutham

A reference to king Vikramaditya comes in inscription found in the Kaaba in Mecca [1] proving beyond doubt that the Arabian Peninsula formed a part of his Empire.

The text of the crucial Vikramaditya inscription, found inscribed on a gold dish hung inside the Kaaba shrine in Mecca, is found recorded in a volume known as Sayar-ul-Okul (meaning, memorable words) treasured in the Makhtab-e-Sultania library in Istanbul, Turkey.

Following are the Arabic wording of the inscription reproduced in Roman script:

"...Itrashaphai Santu Ibikramatul Phahalameen Karimun Yartapheeha Wayosassaru Bihillahaya Samaini Ela Motakabberen Sihillaha Yuhee Quid min howa Yapakhara phajjal asari nahone osirom bayjayhalem. Yundan blabin Kajan blnaya khtoryaha sadunya kanateph netephi bejehalin Atadari bilamasa- rateen phakef tasabuhu kaunnieja majekaralhada walador. As hmiman burukankad toluho watastaru hihila Yakajibaymana balay kulk amarena phaneya jaunabilamary Bikramatum..." (Sayar-ul-okul, pg. 315).

Rendered in free English the inscription reads as follows:

"...Fortunate are those who were born (and lived) during king [Vikramaditya’s] reign. He was a noble, generous dutiful ruler, devoted to the welfare of his subjects. But at that time we Arabs, oblivious of God, were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting and torture were rampant. The darkness of ignorance had enveloped our country. Like the lamb struggling for her life in the cruel paws of a wolf we Arabs were caught up in ignorance. The entire country was enveloped in a darkness so intense as on a new moon night. But the present dawn and pleasant sunshine of education is the result of the favour of the noble king Vikramaditya whose benevolent supervision did not lose sight of us - foreigners as we were. He spread his sacred religion amongst us and sent scholars whose brilliance shone like that of the sun from his country to ours. These scholars and preceptors through whose benevolence we were once again made cognisant of the presence of God, introduced to His sacred existence and put on the road of Truth, had come to our country to preach their religion and impart education at king Vikramaditya’s behest..."Vikramaditya inscription in the Kaaba in Mecca

"As the pilgrim proceeds towards Mecca he is asked to shave his head and beard and to don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless sheets of white cloth. One is to be worn round the waist and the other over the shoulders. Both these rites are remnants of the old Vedic practice of entering Hindu temples clean- and with holy seamless white sheets. The main shrine in Mecca, which houses the Siva emblem, is known as the Kaaba. It is clothed in a black shroud. That custom also originates from the days when it was thought necessary to discourage its recapture by camouflaging it. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, the Kaaba has 360 images. Traditional accounts mention that one of the deities among the 360 destroyed when the place was stormed, was that of Saturn; another was of the Moon and yet another was one called Allah. That shows that in the Kaaba the Arabs worshipped the nine planets in pre-Islamic days. In India the practice of ‘Navagraha’ puja, that is worship of the nine planets, is still in vogue. Two of these nine are Saturn and Moon. In India the crescent moon is always painted across the forehead of the Siva symbol. Since that symbol was associated with the Siva emblem in Kaaba it came to be grafted on the flag of Islam!!! And on Turkey's and Pakistan's and Malaysia's and Uzbekistan's closely resembles...

Since the Kaaba has been an important centre of Shiva (Siva) worship from times immemorial, the Shivaratri festival used to be celebrated there with great gusto. It is that festival which is signified by the Islamic word Shabibarat. Encyclopaedias tell us that there are inscriptions on the side of the Kaaba walls. What they are, no body has been allowed to study, according to the correspondence I had with an American scholar of Arabic. But according to hearsay at least some of those inscriptions are in Sanskrit, and some of them are stanzas from the Bhagavad Gita. "Mystery Behind the Symbol of the Goddess in Islam

So you are saying the religion and language originated from India?

Religion and language originated from the God. Hindustan was just one of the earliest civilizations to express it in a way which has been preserved to this day.

What do you call this? Jats did this, not Hindus.

All i know is that manu smrities are part and parcel of ancient Hindu religion. Hindu society follows it all over India in letter and spirit. The proof of its existence are occurrences of atrocities on untouchables all over India on regular basis.many low caste leave Hinduism because of this tyrannical set up of hindu society

Sikh gurus condemned and denounced the caste system. They took practical steps to eradicate social devisions within society by forming Institutions of langar. guru Gobind singh created khalsa and made all to drink from same bowl thus imparting a mortal blow to evils of acste system.

In view of above It is sinful to say that sikhism is a branch of Hinduism.

Denunciation of corruptions of the caste system and the establishment of langar halls, the acceptance of women, outcastes and even Muslims were reforms initiated by the Vaishnavs. Guru Nanak Dev Ji folowed in that tradition as well as incorporated the teachings from Vaishnav bhagat bani.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not end the caste system with Khande Ki Pahul, moreover the castes of the original panj are remembered and celebrated for their unity into a brotherhood. Vaishnav and Shaiva acharyas were military Orders in the pattern of the Rajputs, admitting all castes into membership long before Guru Gobind Singh Ji was even born. What is sinful is to remain ignorant of true history preferring to believe only in propagandistic distortions and fabrications.

Lots of low caste communities are leaving Sikhism for the exact same corruptions you try and blame entire Hindu society for. Whats that about? Maybe the truth is human beings fall far short of authentic spiritual principles. So why blame religion for that? Manu Smritis were given authority by the British which they never had. The British Raj did more to damage the social structure of India then any other force. Yet people continue to praise the British and blame Hinduism for every evil thing they can imagine.

The British are the true authors of the modern race-based caste system and tyrannical set-up of modern Hindu society. And before them, you can thank the Mughal Raj for the exact same thing. Indian society and culture has been through hundreds of years of oppression and degradation which result in massive corruptions and flourishing of evil. Varna is determined by temperament and refers to one's livelihood, not birth or genetics or race. And that is teaching of the Vedas. Guru Nanak Panth tried to uplift the original Vedic ideal and so preserve Dharma.

Hindus and Sikhs are far more related than perhaps you realize. But a closed minded person can never change his understanding. Sikhs are NOT respecting Hinduism at all, because Punjab and Sikhi are being infiltrated by Islamic fundamentalist whose aim is to alienate Sikhs from the Dharmic heritage of purataan Gursikhi in order to cause civil war and political mischief in India. This is the force behind the Dal Khalsa morcha to intimidate and even support assassination squads from Babbar Khalsa and Khalistan Zindabad Force, all clearly represented in posters during their march in April. And of course, terrorist groups stationed in Pakistan and collaborating with Lasker e Taiba and Mujihadeeni groups working for military overthrow of the Indian state.

Do you have any proof? Or just more hindoo paranoid-hearsay-brainfarts?

Khalsa March sends strong warning to pseudo-saints, astray cults and sects:

Disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or any challenge to its Guruship

will not be tolerated

Monday April 13th, 2008

To voice their anger against activities of the pseudo cults including Nirankaris, DJJS, Sirsa Dera for undermining Sikh beliefs and the concept of Shabad Guru, members of the organization took out a ‘Khalsa March’ at Amritsar on April 13, 2009 to "expose the evil and nefarious designs" of the pseudo-saints.

The occasion was 31st anniversary of the bloody incident when 13 Sikhs led by Akand Kirtani Jatha leader Bhai Fauja Singh fell to the bullets of Nirankaris while they are protesting against latter’s blasphemous act in Amritsar on the same day. The Sikh bodies through a resolution steadfastly maintained that any disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or any challenge to its guruship will not be tolerated and will be dealt firmly with full force.

Significantly, the Jathedar of the Akal Takht Gaini Gurbachan Singh flagged off the march. He also performed Ardas in memory of 13 Sikhs. Paying rich tributes to them, he called upon the Sikh masses to unite in their pursuit against these pseudo-saints...

Hundreds of Dal Khalsa activists were carrying placards and large size banners displaying pictures of militant leaders including Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Talwinder Singh Babbar, Wadhawa Singh Babbar and many others. The spirited gathering shouted slogans in their favour for spearheading the militant struggle against “gurudom” and to avenge the killings of 13 Sikhs against neo-Nirankaris in early 80’s. They also eulogized the role and contribution of former jathedar Akal Takht Bhai Ranjit Singh who along with Bhai Kabul Singh allegedly “killed” Nirankari chief responsible for Baisakhi massacre. Large size pictures of Sant Bhindrawale, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Bhai Ranjit Singh beside those of 13 Sikhs were displayed on the mini-truck...

The Parade passing through various lanes and streets of the city rededicated that none but the Granth is the perpetual Guru of the Sikh people. To ensure unflinching respect for Guru Granth Sahib, the Sikh bodies including Damdami Taksal, Akand Kirtani Jatha, Khalsa Action Committee beside Dal Khalsa reiterated that it was a religious and pious duty of every Sikh to defeat the designs of all such sects and cults, which were propagating the concept of "living gurus" contrary to the fundamentals of the Sikh faith.

Striking a discordant chord, the organizers said while the Sikhs are presently engaged in a bitter struggle against the blasphemous acts of the neo-Nirankaris, DJJS led by Aushotosh, Sauda dera, they are emphatically opposed to all schismatic sects including Radhaswami and Namdhari sects as they were also underscoring the fundamentals of Sikh religion in a silent but systematic manner.

The gathering observed that the anti-Sikh network of likes of Gurmeet Ram Rahim, Aushotosh would have to be curtailed and smashed to uphold the fundamentals of Sikhism.Dal Khalsa

25 May 2009

A visiting Indian guru has died after being shot in a clash between rival religious communities at a Sikh temple in Vienna in which about 30 people were injured, police announced.

The guru, Sant Rama Nand, 56, one of two visiting the Austrian capital, died of his wounds in hospital after Sikh followers clashed with knives and at least one gun at a temple in Vienna on Sunday, a police spokesman said.

KZF claims responsibility for Vienna attack; Babbar Khalsa condemns killing

CHANDIGARH: Even as the Khalistan Zindabad Force (KZF) claimed responsibility for the Vienna incident that sparked violence in Punjab, the Babbar Khalsa International (BKI) has condemned the killing of Sant Rama Nand of the Dera Sach Khand.

According to information posted on its website, the London-based Akash Radio said the KZF has claimed responsibility for the Sunday’s attack in Vienna.

Claiming that it had received an e-mail, it said the message, written on the KZF’s letterhead, was signed by one Ranjit Singh.

The KZF is said to have claimed that the incident occurred because “these people did not heed to the warnings that they should not disrespect Guru Granth Sahibji by sitting parallel to Sri Guru Granth Sahibji; letting people bow before them in the Guru Sahib’s presence and committing various unacceptable anti-maryada (Sikh code of conduct) acts. As they continued to commit such sins, the KZF was forced to take this action.”KZF

The six men, all from Punjab or other northern Indian states, had given several names to the police, which made their identification difficult, police spokesman Michael Takacs said. All six were in custody, although one of them, believed to be the mastermind behind the attack, was still in hospital in an induced coma after a shot in the head, he added.

Two of the men - named only as S Charnjit, 24, from Uttar Pradesh, and S Hardeep, 33 - had come to Austria illegally in 2001 and 2008. The other four were seeking asylum. S Sukhwinder, 28, from Haryana, arrived in 2001, citing a family feud for fleeing India, while S Jaspal, 34, came in 2008 and requested asylum on religious grounds. S Satwinder, 28, from UP, and S Tarsum, 45, from Gujarat, made only vague asylum claims. None of the men were related or had a prior criminal record.Vienna Attackers Identified

They all have Sikh names which are not even verified as being correct names. Which of these names points to them being Chamar when the entire sangat recognized them as Amritdharis from Jat caste?

Chandigarh, Aug 11 (IANS) Radical Sikh group Dal Khalsa Tuesday demanded the Sikhs’ highest temporal body, the Akal Takht and Amritsar-based Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) send a joint fact-finding team to Vienna to probe the May shoot-out at a gurdwara there.

“We want them to send a team to Vienna to ascertain the reasons and circumstances that led to the shootout at the gurdwara,” Dal Khalsa spokesperson Kanwarpal Singh said.

The Dal Khalsa also submitted a memorandum to the Akal Takht jathedar (highest priest) and urged him to lend a legal support for the suspects of the Vienna incident.

“All the suspects have full right to defend themselves in a court of law and the jathedar should arrange a team of lawyers from Punjab and Europe to plead their case,” added Singh.Dal Khalsa Urge Legal Representation for Shooters

Dal Khalsa demanded that Akal Takht and SGPC pay for high powered lawyers for the accused amritdharis. Imagine that. If this was an internal Chamar struggle, why would Dal Khalsa even care? Especially after their morcha threatening to attack sanatan dera babas while promoting Babbar Khalsa and KZF leaders. Yes, the plot thickens. But ridiculous excuses which blame the Chamars while justifying the murder are totally beneath the dignity of a civilized person, let alone a "Sikh."

No one can hear or perceive the nirguna.

Many Sants have reached the stage where they can.

No, they hear without hearing the anehad shabd because their consciousness has merged into God and they no longer rely on the physicality of the body.

No one can hear or perceive the nirguna because it is limitless. Only when transcending their finite nature can the atma of a person become one with the Paramatma. But then, he is no longer a "person" he is One with the Divine God Himself. So a sant of this caliber is said to have God-consciousness and Brahmgyan.

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥

jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor ||

We shall merge into the One from whom we came.

The True One is pervading each and every heart.

ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥

aapae mael milaavehee saachai mehal hadhoor

He Himself unites us in Union with Himself;

the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand.

~SGGS Ji ang 20

ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥

sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas ||

They meet and merge with the True One. They become the

Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥

naanak naam santhokheeaa jeeo pindd prabh paas

O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

They offer their bodies and souls to God.

~SGGS Ji ang 20

ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈਐ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥

jothee joth milaaeeai surathee surath sanjog ||

When one's light merges into the Light, and one's intuitive consciousness

is joined with the Intuitive Consciousness,

ਹਿੰਸਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਤੁ ਗਏ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਹਸਾ ਸੋਗੁ ॥

hinsaa houmai gath geae naahee sehasaa sog ||

then one's cruel and violent instincts and egotism depart, and

skepticism and sorrow are taken away.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥੨॥

guramukh jis har man vasai this maelae gur sanjog ||2||

The Lord abides within the mind of the Gurmukh, who merges in

the Lord's Union, through the Guru. ||2||

~SGGS Ji ang 21

Hindoostan was created in 1947. Sikhi outdates it by centuries. Sanatan dharma as you see it is a relatively new creature. This is just another example of how hindu inferiority manifests itself as paranoid psychotic dribbles by people like Harjas 'Kaur'.

Really?

ਖੁਰਾਸਾਨ ਖਸਮਾਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਹਿੰਦੁਸਤਾਨੁ ਡਰਾਇਆ ॥

khuraasaan khasamaanaa keeaa hindhusathaan ddaraaeiaa ||

Having attacked Khuraasaan, Baabar terrified Hindustan.

~SGGS Ji ang 360

Hindustan may "officially" have been created as a sovereign Nation in 1947. But Hindustan is an ancient land, with an ancient civilization which the Sikh Guru's were born into. It far predates Sikhi by several thousand years.

Sanatana Dharma is the religion of the Vedas. How old are they? The Vedas far predate the Abrahamic scriptures by thousands of years.

Or by those ungrateful fools who were protected by sikhs and our gurus and now twist our heritage?

You realize that the Sikh Army was very small, and only influenced area of Punjab. Most of the later annexations occured under Maharaja Ranjit Singh as collaboration with British, but British stabbed him in the back and that was the end of Sikh kingdom. Moreover, it was Hindu custom to give the first born son to be a Sikh. So how can the Sikh Army be thought of as having no relationship to Hindus when it consisted of them?

Shivaji Maharaj, ruler of Delhi conquered a far larger area than the Sikhs. This is not to diminish the glory of the Sikh Army, but realistically, the Sikhs never controlled all of India. For a brief time they were rulers of Punjab. Hindu's have been fighting off Mughal invasions for centuries, and the Sikhs were a historical part of that. But by no means were Hindus some kind of defenseless pacifists. The very martial traditions and even scriptures of the Rajputs became adopted by Guru Gobind Singh to rouse the Army of his Khalsa.

The only ones twisting Sikh heritage are the Sikhs themselves who try to erase clear Sanatana Dharma taught in Guru Granth Sahib or to claim Rajput history, heritage, surname, weapons and military victories as all their own. Even gatka and shastar vidya come from the Rajputs. The fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji adopted all these didn't mean he created something new. What He did was raise an Army from those same Hindu pinds defending the same Hindustan against the Mughal invaders.

As you see it, Hindu-Sikh unity involves sikhs becoming hindus, sikhs fighting the chinese and pakis followed by allowing hindus to kill us in riots and drive tanks into our gurudwaras whenever they feel like it. That's not unity. It's abuse.

Hindu's as a religion didn't invade Harminder Sahib. Indira Gandhi did on the advice of her Sikh generals after the time of emergency when she abdicated democracy and established dictatorial powers for herself. In this same time frame, her son Sanjay who was married to a Sikh was talking about forced sterilizations and variety of other dictatorial abuses planned for entire populace. Not just Sikhs. So using Prime ministership of Indira Gandhi as reflective of Hindu Dharma is absurd.

Moreover, she was married to a Muslim, Feroze Khan. And Indian government felt Sikh militancy was being manipulated and armed by enemy states such as Pakistan and China and therefore a threat to internal security. Sikh-Hindu Unity is about reconciliation on the basis of spiritual principles and shared communal heritage. Why should brother fight against brother? Exactly what would Khalistan gain? Exactly what would terrorism against the Indian state or Hindu civilians gain? Indira Gandhi is long gone. Now the Sikh militants are involved in drug and arms smuggling and Pakistani jihadi militias. What exactly have they done to help Sikhs?

Were is your evidence that Singh Sabha actually changed any texts?

Do you know why Macauliffe and Dr, Peshaura Singh are resented by the Sikh community? Because they have journals and books which establish academically how Singh Sabha adulterated and distorted texts.

Why don't you do independent research. Or better yet, try to academically refute it. Below is an excerpt from a Singh Sabha viewpoint. Nevertheless it offers a window into how much sanatan ideology exists in purataan Sikh historical sources.

"The first book, Gurbilaas Patshahi 6, a refurbished version of an old book dating back to almost three hundred years, was published in June 1998 by the Dharam Parchar Committee of the S.G.P.C. and carried testimonials by a virtual Who's Who of Sikh scholars from across the world. Vedanti and Amarjit edited this new version. These two are highly regarded scholars who hold eminent positions in the community. Vedanti is now jathedar of the Akal Takht. Amarjit holds a doctoral degree in religion and is professor at Shahid Sikh Missionary College, Amritsar. Their credentials are impeccable, their integrity and devotion to Sikhism unquestioned.

The original version of this book was written in 1718 C.E. (Bikrami 1775) by an unknown author. Efforts by many historians to identify the author have failed. There is no definitive original version. A few copies exist in private libraries and in institutional archives but they contain variations in the text. In the 1998 version, the editors have tried to reconcile such differences in text and make minor corrections as needed. In addition, the editors have provided footnotes to explain the text in simpler language, but they do not claim any credit for the contents of the book. The original text is written in a language and style that is reminiscent of books written around the same time by Santokh Singh.

The book purports to recount in great detail the life of Guru Hargobind, the sixth Sikh guru, from birth to passing away, including some dubious passages on the period before his birth. While the book has some historical value, it is not a religious text. A significant part of the writing is not only inconsistent with Sikh tradition, it is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the gurus compiled in the Guru Granth, acknowledged as guru by all Sikhs. These passages are full of mythic stories that seem to have been taken right out of much discredited books of Hindu mythology, rejected by the gurus in no uncertain terms. For example, the book portrays that Guru Hargobind was not conceived and born in the same manner as all mortals, indeed all gurus, but by divine intervention of the Hindu god Vishnu. There are numerous such instances in the book, some even bordering on the pornographic, more consistent with the stories of Hindu mythology than the gospel of Guru Granth.

Considering the dearth of original material for research, over the past two centuries parts of this book were widely used by eminent scholars like Kahn Singh Nabha, Vir Singh, Karam Singh and Max Arthur Macauliffe. These scholars used sections from this book as their source of reference, without comment on its obviously illogical, inconsistent and erroneous parts.

It needs to be pointed out that in the predominantly oral historical tradition of Indian culture, hagiographic accounts almost always intermix history and mythology. This is what attracts the scholar to the pursuit of Indian history and also makes the task impossibly challenging. Such mythic-historical writing is commonly encountered in the Indian tradition. Just look at the Ramayana, the Bhagvad Gita, and the Sikh historiography in the Puratan Janam Sakhis."The SikhTimes

Now, the Guru's bani clearly did not reject Hindu mat. Hindu mat, the devas, the avatars are all in Gurbani, explained exactly as per the philosophical school of Vaishnav mat which challenged Braminism critically. So here is a Singh Sabha biased article and it STILL has to acknowledge that purataan historical sources of Gursikhi are filled with sanatan Mat. Now from the sanatan perspective, it is the Singh Sabha whose viewpoint is wrong in suppressing the sanatan mat which is clearly demonstrated to exist in the history.

Mr Jagdev Singh Talwandi, a former SGPC chief today caused a flutter in the budget session of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee when he criticised Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, Jathedar Akal Takht for editing controversial book — ‘gurbilas Patsahi six’ which was banned later by the SGPC. Mr Talwandi said if “our Jathedars would edit such books which contained ‘anti-Panthic’ contents then what would be the fate of the Panth?”

What was anti-Panthic about Gurbilas? Why the fact that it proved the purataan historay of Sikhs is sanataan. And for this reason it was "banned."

"Gur Bilas Patshahi 6 has regularly been recited in many Gurdwaras in the past...

On another issue of Dasam Granth(attributed to tenth Sikh master Guru Gobind Singh), Vedanti had issued an edict to stop any debate on it since a major section of Sikhs found the contents of Dasam Granth objectionable and not tenable under Sikh traditions. The Sikh hardliners have been demanding ban on Dasam Granth while the members of Sant Samaj were in favour of recognizing it. SGPC has not so far recognized the recitation of 'Dasam Granth' in Sikh shrines due to controversy over its authorship." Punjab News

When mistake was made in copping “greenish ink” or Hartaal was used to cover the mistake and then correct rendering was written over it. If the words of lines did not form part of the hymn copied, the “greenish ink” was used to obliterate them. This has been done in all old manuscripts that I have examined....

"Many scholars however, claimed originality for the Bhai Banno edition the Kari (Bitter) Bir, because it contains three passages missing from the Kartarpure manuscripts. Two of these the hymns Mira Bai and that of Sur Das are important only as textual problems; but n the section in the Ram kali Rag by the fifth Guru has ritual and theological implications as well. In it Guru Arjan describe the puberty rites conducted for Hargovind, when his head was shaved according to the old Hindu rites of chaula, or tonsure. Only the preliminary verse is given in the Kartarpur manuscript, followed by blank pages.

The solution of each question seems impossible because of thee inaccessibility of these manuscripts, especially the Kartarpur one. A basic problem is that of the owner ship and custody of the Kartarpur Granth itself. Why did the ninth Guru sanction private ownership Guru himself., and in the hands of one who tried to assassinate him?

To exemplify forgiveness, perhaps; but this precedent resulted in the district Court of Jalander few years ago giving ownership and possession to the Sodhi family of Kartarpur descending from the traitor Dhirmal !.

The effect has been set back to scientific investigation in to the actual original text of the Kartarpur Grannnth. For example, a few years ago an attempt was made to photograph every page of this Granth. A non-Sikh scholar secured special apparatus. This attempt to preserve the text in case anything happened to the original would seem reasonable and helpful, but it caused tremendous stir among Nihangs and other fanatical groups. This reaction was to the effect that “you will photograph the naked body of our Guru over our dead bodies!” so the matter was dropped." ur%20Granth.htm"]Textual Criticism of the Kartarpur Bir

"The source of Sikh Rehat Maryada - believe it or not - is Gurbilas Patshahi 6.

Gurbilas Patshahi 6, a book released under the SGPC seal, was banned in October 2000. What does a book ban mean for the Sikhs? My understanding is that a book ban should also apply to the reading, listening and implementing of what is written in the book. In other words, we as Sikhs should stop all practices based on a banned book. But this is not the case for Gurbilas Patshahi 6. The maryada at the Darbar Sahib is practiced based on the writings in this book.

Why is the maryada at the Darbar Sahib based on a book which is banned by the SGPC? Some may say that this is Sikh tradiPracticing the Wrong Maryadation, but the question is: Is this Sikh tradition or is this biparan tradition?"

What if it isn't brahminism at all, but Vaishnav sanatanism, and what if it actually is original to Gursikhi? It would explain all the sanatan footprints in Sikh history, the original sanatan Singh Sabha, and even the sanatan references all over Gurbani.

What if all the cutting, pasting, deletions, editing, banning, and denials are trying to cover-up one of the most logical truths...

Sikhism is part of Sanatana Dharma. And only because of association with the British Raj who tried to divide India using sepoys to internally fight with Hindus and Muslims to prevent Indian independence. The British Raj were the birth of the Singh Sabha movement and massive distortions of Sikhism.

“British influence on the Singh Sabha movement is undeniable, particularly in light of the preferential treatment given the Sikhs by the Raj. Correspondingly, the Singh Sabha leaders exhibited admiration and unequivocal support towards their rulers.”~D. Jacobsh

Singh Sabha adopted a pseudo-Abrahamic world-view and tried to force Sikhism into it, claiming among such absurdities as Guru's rejected Hindu Mat (show me the pauri), Sikhism is monotheistic (prove it), Sikhism doesn't believe in miracles or reincarnation or devas (really?).

Singh Sabha is just the ideology left-over from the British that Sikhism is some kind of Christian-Islam and enemy of Hinduism, and that Jats are Aryan race descended from Pathans and Greek Scythians and have no association with Dravidic India.

manu smrities are the foundation of casteism in Hinduism and very much part of snatan dhrama. Do not blame british for that.

Manu Smritis have no operative authority in Vaishnav or Shaiva or Shakta sampradayas. Live with it. Moreover the text has been adulterated and distorted by the British and does not reflect true teaching of Varna system. Modern caste system is neither Vedic nor part of Sanatana Dharma. When presented with the truth, why not reflect and study further? Wherever there is a disagreement, Smritis are also inferior to Shruti/Vedas. Vedas teach the gunas of a person are reflected in their mentality, not in their birth. A Shudra can become a Brahmin. This is also taught in Gurbani.

Or is there some secondary gain in promoting falsehood for propaganda purposes? Painting something in the very worst, exaggerated light is called SLANDER.

Why are you slandering the truth about Hindu religion? You slander your own Gurbani as well since Gurbani is teaching a Vedic concept and correction of the corruptions of Hindustani society. So were the Vaishnav sampradayas. That's why Vaishnav bhagats from low caste who are SAINTS according to VAISHNAV MAT as well as SIKHISM have those exact teachings having become part of Gurbani.

Rajai came from Ridha, Arabic word and Muslim concept. This concept has nothing to do with word Raja (King) or Vaishnav mat. Similar is Punjabi word ਰੱਜਣਾ.

Raja doesn't only mean King. There are secondary and tertiary relational usages such as kingship, authority, power and dominion also being expressed depending on grammatical construct. In trying to express the relational association to Vaishnav Mat which would be underscored by submission and authority of Guru who is called in Gurbani as True King, then authority of Kingship becomes foremost. As a concept this is expressed from the phrase "Raja-pada." which has association to Guru's charan and Lordship Mastery of a Guru over his chelas much as a King over his subjects.

So the question arises does "Raja-ee" meaning the Divine Will have any relation to the sankalpa of a Satguru? Some may say no. And some may say yes. But what is indisputable is that Gurbani itself submits the shishya/sikh to Guru's Divine Will just as Gurbani places the Shishya/chela/sikh under submission to the Hukam of God's command in the sargun swaroop of Guru.

There are plenty of old Nihang Singhs who have been around since before the SGPC Rehat came into existance. You can check with them. THE SGPC Rehat is not accepted by any of the puratan samapardas. It is illogical to think that they would have been influenced by it. Of course there are some common points, why wouldn't there be?

Neither is Nihang Panth a political unity, and yes Nihang Panth as well as even Nirmala Panth have been influenced by politics of Singh Sabha, absolutely. But I agree that there are some outstanding purataan Nihang Singhs still around who think SGPC is rubbish. However, the political commentary you referenced regarding an opinion statement about Deva/devti comes from the SGPC SRM, and was interpolated as a political statement pretending to represent the authority of Khalsa Sikhs.

So I am discussing a particular element, and not whether or not entire Nihang Jatha believes or agrees with something.

Its no wonder we have to deal with these RSS types when we have so called sikhs like Harjas going on hindu forums promoting the idea of sikhs being hindus.

Heres my favourite post of hers from 'Hindu Dharma Forum'

http://www.hindudhar...read.php?t=4481

I am not a member of the RSS.

You sure this is from a Hindu forum? Sounds like something from Niddar Singh's site.

But seriously, Bhainjee, Why are you so insistant on turning Sikhs into Hindus? Seeing our opposition on all forums on the internet isn't it clear we have no desire to be Hindus neither do we see ourselves as Hindus. We are Sikhs. We respect Hinduism just as we respect all other religions such as Buddhism Islam Christianity, Jainism, but that is about it.

I have no association with Niddar Singh. Never have I met him. Never have I spoken to any of his group. Neither do I represent his views.

I am not insistent about anything. I simply came here, read some inflammatory propaganda, and decided to share my views.

Hindus and Sikhs are far more related than perhaps you realize. But a closed minded person can never change his understanding. Sikhs are NOT respecting Hinduism at all, because Punjab and Sikhi are being infiltrated by Islamic fundamentalist whose aim is to alienate Sikhs from the Dharmic heritage of purataan Gursikhi in order to cause civil war and political mischief in India. This is the force behind the Dal Khalsa morcha to intimidate and even support assassination squads from Babbar Khalsa and Khalistan Zindabad Force, all clearly represented in posters during their march in April. And of course, terrorist groups stationed in Pakistan and collaborating with Lasker e Taiba and Mujihadeeni groups working for military overthrow of the Indian state.

So why wouldn't it be a concern that the very Dharma which the Guru Sahibaan fought and died to defend is now being trampled by people calling themselves as "Sikhs?"

Just look at your own Gurbani and your own heritage. You cannot blot out your Hindustani heritage nor overthrow the precious Sanatana Dharma just like that. If you wanted to at least show real respect, would I even be posting here now? Because you show respect? Or because you are trashing? Why did I post? It was to protest all of your anti-Hindu hatred expressed here calling Sikh-Hindu Unity as "Anti-Sikh Propaganda.

Anyone up for spending a saturday afternoon with some pakistanis and chinese looking for some 'sanatan sikh' leaders to routinely assassinate?

Where do I sign up? lol

Well at least we can clearly see where you all are coming from.

Rajai came from Ridha, Arabic word and Muslim concept. This concept has nothing to do with word Raja (King) or Vaishnav mat. Similar is Punjabi word ਰੱਜਣਾ.

Hukam does not mean relationship between Guru and Chela. Please read Japji's second Pauri. Is Satguru talking about "charan pahul" or "prapatti or whatever" here? No!!

Writing long posts does not make you right. I made it short and was just pointing out that you are a liar.

ALLAH HOO AKBAR!! and Good Bye.

I am not a liar to give answer according to my best understanding. It is your belief that Vaishnav mat has nothing to do with what you claim as "Muslim concepts" of Hukam and Raja-ee. I differ! You are basing simple linguistics as radical difference. This is too simplistic.

Do you think the God is not present throughout the whole world?

And if the God is present throughout the whole world, than every religion has some degree of knowledge of the God.

And if this is so, why would there be no relationship between one thing and another? Isn't the whole of Gurbani asserting the opposite? That Vaishnavism and Islam can find a path of unity? Isn't that the very meaning of SIkh Gurbani? That it isn't religious ritualism, but authentic and sincere spirituality by which the God is found? And did not the Guru Sahibaan include bani of spiritual Masters regardless of their tradition, either Vaishnav or Sufi?

So if you are calling as utterly unrelated the Vaishnavs, why is there bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

The word "hukam" relates to the Guru-chela relationship because GURBANI teaches that the Guru-Chela relationship is necessary to reach the God. And when Sikhs take Hukam, they are taking Hukam from the Guru. If a Sikh is not a chela of the Guru, he cannot receive the Hukam of God because only the Guru can bring God to the chela, according to SIKH and also Vaishnav Mat.

Where does a Sikh take Hukamnama? From the sky? Or from his Guru, Guru Granth Sahib?

Hukam does not mean relationship between Guru and Chela. Please read Japji's second Pauri. Is Satguru talking about "charan pahul" or "prapatti or whatever" here? No!!

The question was asked how the terms "Hukam" and "Raja-ee" relate to Vaishnav Mat. I gave the answer by relationship of Vaishnav teaching of the surrender to Guru-Chela relationship. And then I showed Gurbani where this is also Sikh teaching. THAT is the relationship. Because Sikh does takes Hukam from GURU Sahib's bani, and surrender's his head, his mind/mann to Guru Sahib, so that his life becomes a sacrifice to the true Guru which is the Shabd jyoth expressed in the very words of Guru's bani which resonate from a vibration beyond the physical forms of either the words or the bodies of the Guru's physical forms. The Shabd and Jyoth emanate from the Primal sound current which comes from the nirguna.

A Sikh does not take Hukam from the nirguna. No one can hear or perceive the nirguna. That's why it's necessary to have a Sat Guru. A Sikh takes visible words of Guruji's Shabad for Hukamnama. Just as a Sikh does "prapatti" throws himself under the Guru's feet/charan every time he does namaskar in Guru Granth Sahib's Divine Presence.

Guru Sahib does talk about charan pahul in many places, you can't pick apart Guru Granth Sahib like that. ENTIRE Gurbani is the hukam for a Sikh.

Make up your mind.

I did make up my mind. I said it is from Arabic word Raza but has relationship to Raja on basis of close approximation of sound and useage but that derivative use was not as persuasive. However the closest approximation was Prapatti to the actual meaning.

What are you a lingusitic teacher or just making arguments? Do you have any discussion to add or just complaints? Are you familiar with the fact that majority of modern languages all over the world call mata as "Ma?" Thats a derivative linguistic association which experts believe shows relationship to common ancestral language. So, although you may disagree, relational derivative sounds and meanings are not invalid. And in the usage which was closest to both "prapatti" and "charan pahul" the Sanskrit derivation of "Raja pada" was closest. Otherwise words for "God's Command" and "Divine Will" are Arabic. Now what relationship has that to Vaishnav was the question, so one has to look at Braj Basha or Sanskrit equivalents.

Again, are you carrying on a discussion or just nit picking for sake of argumentation?

No. You said it was a jatt-chamar conflict, when in fact it was an internal issue.

How much nindiya can one keep hearing of his Guru before doing something about it. Guru Ji themselves say, " Gur Ki Nind Suneh Na Kan.....this ko peht karo kirpan".

Don't even bring Darshan das into it.

Anyone can say anything. Immediately after the murder Khalsas started blaming the Chamar community that it was an "internal issue" having nothing to do with Jats at all, and now blaming that the shooters were Chamars. And all this when the shooting occurred within 2 months of Dal Khalsa's morcha against dedhari snatan Sikh babas and dera leaders making what is almost a death threat in public hoisting lifesize posters of Babbar Khalsa leaders.

But you people make claims "Khalistan Zindabad Force didn't do it." "Babbar Khalsa didn't do it." "Jats didn't do it." "Khalsa Sikhs didn't do it." "it was the Chamars themselves." Oh really? And wheres the proof? More opinion?

Empty talk is close to lies.

And then add on the irrational comments such as he had it coming because "how much disrespect could a Sikh take?" And shooting up a temple filled with families, old people, women and children. And you don't even have the dignity to say THAT is wrong. But only show mentality that sanatan baba was "intolerably wrong." So "grievously, intolerably" wrong to your self-righteous opinions that you are silent about shooting up innocents to justify that he deserved to get shot!

And why not mention Darshan Dasi? It reflects a pattern of terror and murder by Khalistani fanatics which the whole world should condemn. Who in the hell do these bully khalsas think they are? God's gift to religion?

You should be ashamed to support maha paap like murder of an unarmed old man. The Ravidasi sangat calls these allegations as lies saying he did no such nidya of Guru Sahib. I'm inclined to believe them over supporters of killers. And without proof, you should be quiet or you may be found guilty spreading lies amongst the Guru's sangat and just to support ugliness.

That's not right. Just say, "I think..." Because you've given no authority to know

The Buddha Dal have had the same Rehat Maryada for long before the Singh Sabha was conceived.

Just saying does not make it so. Such are empty argumentative statements with no truth or substance. If you want to prove a point, then do background check and provide citation reference so everyone can see some proof of it's reality. Anyone can fill up space with just opinion. If opinion is based on nothing, then it is already half a lie. Opinions can be wrong, but just talk is an eyesore.

Keeping in view that many Rehits in various Rehit Namae lacked logic and were contrary to Gurbani, a new Sikh Rehit Maryada, Code of Conduct, was drafted by the Rouh Reet Committee, appointed by the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) during 1931. The draft prepared by this committee was further discussed by the Religious Advisory Committee of the SGPC. After 14 years the Religious Advisory Committee submitted the draft to the SGPC on January 7, 1945. Consequently the SGPC in its meeting of February 3, 1945 vide resolution # 97 has approved to do additions and deletions according to the recommendations of Religious Advisory Committee. It means that there were some additions and deletions, recommended by the Religious Advisory Committee, to be done. However, it is not clear from it and elsewhere in the text, whether the recommended additions and deletions were done or not. It is also not clear when and by whom it was declared as a statute. I have not come across any such edict (Hukm Nama), issued by the Akal Takht or SGPC, where the presently circulated Sikh Rehit Maryada (Sikh Code of Conduct) has been declared as a statute for the Sikhs. In spite of the above facts most Amritdhari Sikhs were unanimous in accepting it as an approved statute by the Akal Takht and the SGPC, when I discussed it with them.

Now the question arises: If it is a code then it should have been written like a code and should be interpreted as a code (Code = a systematic statement of a body of law; especially: one given statutory force). Thus, it ought to be free from redundancies and uncertainties, and must not be capable of being understood in two or more possible senses. Unfortunately, it is not so with the present Code of Conduct, published by the SGPC.

In spite of above facts Mr. Gurtej Singh (6) has indicated his concern to protect the Rehit Maryada: "Shall we not discourage those trying to raise controversies regarding the Rehit Maryada, and politely bring to their notice that their activity, being grounded in subjectivity is detrimental to basic panthic interest." Similarly, in the recent 'Declaration' (4), the SGPC has urged the Sikhs to be loyal to Hukm Namae and Rehit Maryada without evaluating their authenticity and validity according to the Gurbani, science and logic. It appears that it was declared so that nobody could dare to raise any controversy on it. In fact, it would have been a big step toward understanding of Sikhism in its real perspective if the Sikh authorities, the Akal Takht and the SGPC had taken a decision to revise the 52-year old Rehit Maryada before it is recommended for strict compliance by the Gurdwaras and the Sikhs.

...If some codes formulated by the past famous personalities of Sikhism, like, Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Chaupa Singh, Bhai Dya Singh (one of the first Panj Pyarae), etc., can be rejected about 52 years ago by the Rouh Reet Committee and the Religious Advisory Committee of the SGPC, then there are no reasons that the present Rehit Muryada, printed by SGPC, cannot be corrected or modified in the light of Gurbani, and logic, the touchstones of the truth. One can compare the views of different authors and the old Rehit Namae given in references 3, 5 and 7, with that of the SGPC to verify the above fact. SRM

Every Jatha had particular oral traditions and rehitnamay. But the document and structure of a Sikh Rehit Maryada did NOT exist until it was codified and created by the SGPC, and accepted by the Panth in about in 1950. As you see from certain printed criticisms, the committee decided without any evidence of convening panj piare for hukamnama and decided for themselves on deletion or revision of certain rehitnamay. Nor was there any Panthic evaluation of the selections apart from the designated SGPC committee. And hence does not constitute any binding force of Gurmat.

The current SRM is a political construction which has selectively decided on particular rehitnamay and added interpolative opinion in the code as authoritative without authority of either Gurmat or force of purataan rehitnamay.

Do your homework at least. Don't just post statements easily contradicted by easily researched fact. We can all see the political instrument of an SGPC Rehit Maryada actually changed purataan rehitnamay without even convening the Panj. Is this supposed to be authoritative?

"I only joined this forum last night.

It says you joined in August '08.

And first post was last night. Are you trying to be annoying?

Posted Today, 01:26 PM

harjas kaur touts here that sikhism is part of santan hinudism.

santan hinduism considers shudras as inhuman. per them 40 percent of Hindu population i.e. shudras is not worth being called a human being. This is writeen in manu smrities.You should be ashamed of for equating a religion to khasla panth especially when that religion ordains inhuman practices. God is not pleased by such cruel practices. So all so called religious ideas are of zero value if you do not believe in and practice equality among human beings. It is against principles of modern world. remove these pathetic conditions , change/ abandon your religious texts before claiming to be God oriented religion.

and above all remove kaur from your name as it is an insult to khalsa.

I see degrading personal attacks are tolerated on this forum. How dare you judge me on the basis of Manu Smritis which are a British manipulated racist diatribe and do not represent the Sanatana Dharma, nor are they authoritative.

You invent an ugliness you demand untruthfully is representing Hindu religion and then you trample people's reputations falsely who do not have any believe or faith whatsoever in such slanderous lies.

Why do nindya? Do you think it makes you look good as a Khalsa?

You misrepresent, lie and demonize Hindu Dharma and true teaching and then make personal attacks based on deliberate lies and misrepresentation.

Have you no honor as a Singh?

"Matheen has made a good point. Harjas Kaur's points are basically common points of all religions and this was proven by Bahadur who tried his level best in showing how Gurmat is a part of Islam. And might I add, Bahadur made some excellent points, he would reply to everysingle post point by point even though he was fighting a losing battle.

Harjas Kaur has chosen to ignore the Dasam Granth Tukhs given by Matheen Jee which are in opposition to her Sanatan views. We are still eagerly waiting for her reply to those Dasam Granth Tukhs. Please do not pick and choose to what you want to reply to."

I only joined this forum last night. There are like 18 different replies all demanding an immediate answer and then badgering if they don't get one. That is poor sportsmanship.

I already wrote that I do not accept uncritically the Dasm Granth presented to us by the SGPC because there is a history of manipulations and distortions and deletions of controversial texts. Also, I have not eatedn all day and will take leave of this forum to go do that now. I'm sorry you can't get answers to every demanding question in one day. There is one of me and several of you. Neither have I challenged or badgered or treated any of you in a hostile way.

But I'm accustomed to the Sikh persecutions, badgering and banning game. Looks like this is just more of the same.

Harjas Kaur: what do the Sanatan Manusmritis say about women? Or abour low castes reading the vedas?

"Women have no business with the text of the vedas".....

The Manu Smritis do not have the authority of Sruti, moreover they were the first scripture which the British "translated" and manipulated in order to establish Anglo-Saxon Case Law in British India as an "authoritative" document with force of law, which most Hindu sampradayas do not even recognize, and is also why the "Indian legal system" wound up being a mere copy of the English one.

No one recognizes the authority of Manu Smritis over the Vedas and Puranas. Every sect acknowledges passages have been manipulated and interpolated by the British and that the modern caste varna system is a corruption of the Divine intent.

Vaishnavism and Shaivism introduced caste based reforms, started langar halls, admited outcastes and women as both chelas and Gurus hundreds of years before Guru Nanak Dev i was ever born. Most Vaishnav sampradayas were a reform against brahminism to begin with. Or did you miss all those low caste Vaishnav Bhagats whose bani has become Gurbani?

"ManuSmriti is widely quoted, especially by the British Colonial rulers of India as the "law-book" of the Hindus. Some Hindus allege that the colonial rulers, like Robert Clive (admittedly a bully and scoundrel) and Lord Macaulay (who saw the need to subvert and exploit other civilized societies for Her Majesty), would have found it a useful tool. It is equally possible that the British, like the other European nations, would have found existing social structures in Asia, simply beyond their comprehension. Since Hinduism does not permit a priestly order (there are no ordained priests, no hierarchy of priests, no Popes, no Ayatollahs), the British must have found governance of a conquered nation posing insurmountable problems.

At no time in history have all Hindus followed Manu Smriti or any other law book completely, like the Shariah is done in Islamic regimes. Further, the Smritis by their very nature are deemed inferior to the Shrutis (the Vedas). In any question of dispute between the Shruti and the Smriti, the former will prevail over the latter. However, some selfish people over the ages have quoted or interpreted the Manu Smriti as an excuse to justify Brahmin supremacy, the alleged sanctity of the caste system and the lower status given to the so-called Dalits." Manu Smriti

According to Manu Smritis, varna is hereditary. According to the Vedas and Puranas, Varna is a consequence of an individuals dispositions.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.11.35

yasya yal laksanam proktam

pumso varnabhivyanjakam

yad anyatrapi drsyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiset

SYNONYMS

yasya--of whom; yat--which; laksanam--symptom; proktam--described (above); pumsah--of a person; varna-abhivyanjakam--indicating the classification (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, etc.); yat--if; anyatra--elsewhere; api--also; drsyeta--is seen; tat--that; tena--by that symptom; eva--certainly; vinirdiset--one should designate.

TRANSLATION

If one shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification.

PURPORT

Herein it is clearly stated by Narada Muni that one should not be accepted as a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra according to birth, for although this is going on now, it is not accepted by the sastras. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. Thus the four divisions of society--brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra--are to be ascertained according to qualities and activities. If one was born in a brahmana family and has acquired the brahminical qualifications, he is to be accepted as a brahmana; otherwise, he should be considered a brahma-bandhu. Similarly, if a sudra acquires the qualities of a brahmana, although he was born in a sudra family, he is not a sudra; because he has developed the qualities of a brahmana, he should be accepted as a brahmana. The Krsna consciousness movement is meant to develop these brahminical qualities. Regardless of the community in which one was born, if one develops the qualities of a brahmana he should be accepted as a brahmana, and he then may be offered the order of sannyasa. Unless one is qualified in terms of the brahminical symptoms, one cannot take sannyasa. In designating a person a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, birth is not the essential symptom. This understanding is very important. Herein Narada Muni distinctly says that one may be accepted according to the caste of his birth if he has the corresponding qualifications, but otherwise he should not. One who has attained the qualifications of a brahmana, regardless of where he was born, should be accepted as a brahmana. Similarly, if one has developed the qualities of a sudra or a candala, regardless of where he was born, he should be accepted in terms of those symptoms." ~Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 18 TEXT 41