HarjasDevi

You can't honestly translate avatar as prophet unless you are being deceptive. A prophet is a specially called human being who brings a message from the God to the people. An avatar is the indwelling personality of the God in human form. If you make an avatar into a prophet, you deny his identity completely. He isn't a "warner" and He isn't a "messenger." He is the literal God, as Gurbani says, "Only He Himself knows Himself." He knows Himself, and is not delivering a message like a courier and a dasa. there is nothing wrong with the Abrahamic conception of God but it doesn't fit the definition and understanding of God in Gurbani, because Gurbani is rooted in "eastern" philosophical thought and hence discusses nirguna and sarguna and devatay and avtaray. Just as it discusses stories from Puranas. Why try to make a teaching of a Satguru and avatar into a mere human messenger, capable of making mistakes in his message?

So now Bhagavan Krishna is a human prophet? Don't you think this would distort completely the authentic spiritual teachings which form the basis of Krishna as purna avatar? I mean, if you want to be at all intellectually honest with the source material and not try to re-interpret it from Abrahamic paradigm that is. Of course if someone has the narrow restriction that he can only understand world-view from Abrahamic perspective, then that is what he must believe. But you have to repress, deny and distort the actual scriptural teachings of Krishna in order to make it work.

Okay, let's be honest here. We often use the term "monotheism" to describe a primary Oneness of God as it is best understood in the west. But like the designation "prophet" for "avatar" it really doesn't fit and is imprecise and inauthentic. Monotheism according to Abrahamic religions means something very peculiar to them. Starting with the Jewish Shema:

"Hear O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is One." and also from the ten commandments: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Those two concepts are married to each other. And in order for the first concept to be true and not logically false, the "other gods" have to be fake imposters or demons. Otherwise, there are many gods and the primary God of Abrahamics is merely "jealous" of them. So in order for the Abrahamic conception to be true... Hinduism must be "false" and so devatay are not considered as actual gods or demi-gods (which only means in this level of reality they have god-like powers but in the overall schema they are small compared to the Greatness which is beyond our comprehension, the nirgun nature which is agochar.)

And now, they will become "prophets." Well, that's nice. But you simply have to relegate entire body of Hindu scriptural support into the trash and rewrite hinduism to make it fit such a schema. Because the actual teaching is that the One created a world of duality in which there is no Oneness which can be perceived due to Mayayog. Instead, we see divisions of things. So the God Absolute appears to take these many forms, not only devatay and avataray, but humans, animals, living beings, material nature, rocks even. the One Absolute is pervading within all. but these are mere parts and parcels of the One. However, in this conscious reality, all these things have definitive manifestation. The atmas of the living beings are covered over with aggregates and defilements of consciousness, the necessity of haumai in order to be a self-preserving individual in a competitive world, etc. And of course, carrying the imprints of tendencies and karmas. But the true nature of every one of us...is itself Divine and sits like a witness in the conscience of our hearts as the ultimate Divine Guide, if only we could be attuned to that. So this can never really be mistaken for any Abrahamic "monotheism." It is more akin to a panentheism even than the western definition of polytheism, as you mentioned.

Most of the Sufi sects have a heavy Hindu and Buddhist influence and often large concentrations in regions where people had formerly been Hindu or Buddhist and somehow converted or been forced to convert under Mughal invasions. So the hidden teachings among most Sufi schools include forbidden teachings like reincarnation and yogic trance and belief in teachers with powers and divinities outside the accepted Islamic conception. Perfect example is the teaching of chakras and Nath yogic system as well as Guru-chela relationships. None of these originates from Abrahamic teaching. but does relate to the region of Kashmir and Afghanistan and relates to ancient tantric "non-Islamic" traditions. And that is why many of these sects of Sufism which openly teach these practices are considered heretical, and only those sects which conform to the more conservative Islamic definition are actually tolerated within al-Islam.

See, here is the crux of it, the prophet Mohammed means nothing at all within the hindu paradigm. he isn't even close to an avatar and in Bhavishya Purana he is considered a deceptive demon. Probably biggest reason is his denial of any validity to Hinduism and deadly persecution of "polytheists." Now, he can be accepted as a historical figure of great importance to Islamics. But there is nothing in his message which brings anything to Hinduism at all, and in fact only brings a historical persecution. So how would this fit into the scheme where Bhagavan Krishna becomes mere mortal and Mohammed the slayer becomes the most beloved? See, it doesn't fit at all. We can respect that to Islamics he is beloved and brings them a beautiful message. But that message surely isn't beautiful to people designated as kaffirs and polytheists. And that is not to say that someone estranged from his own faith should not ever look for God in a way he can personally accept. But it isn't going to happen that conversions among Hindus is promoted as ultimate good to save them from hellfire and damnation as worshippers of demons and fake imposter gods.

It's irrelevent what Musalmans believe about Guru Nanak. they can only believe and accept from within their own paradigm. the moment guru Nanak ceases to be a Satguru and avatar of Parabrahmha Jyot, He is no longer capable of bringing the Shabda Brahman into the sansara. If he is merely a pir or a prophet, the Gurbani is only a book, and His Gurmantra is only a word incapable of liberation. So we see the obvious, for anyone to accept the credibility of this paradigm you have proposed, he becomes a Muslim! because it is not possible for him to also be either a Hindu or a Sikh and believe these things. If this is your path, however, then God bless you. And if you believe in unity of mankind and tolerance and love between peoples and cultures and want to promote harmony and peace, it is a real blessing to this world. But the moment Guru Nanak is only a prophet, Sikhi is over. The moment Krishna or Sada Shiva are only human prophets, the Hinduism is also gone. And what is left? Acceptance of the primacy and most belovedness of Mohammed as the final seal. And that by any other name is Islam.

It's nice that you believe in Him, but if you think He was merely human than He cannot be your Satguru and you are already not a Sikh. He becomes just a historical teacher for you, whether known or unknown, if this is how he is accepted, He cannot be Guru Nanak for such persons. So it doesn't matter if He is known to them this way or not, since it is meaningless. There he is in history book is nice, but it won't have any effect on people's lives, and will only create the animosities of Sikhi being perceived as a competitor to the "only accepted religion of Islam" to Islamics. So what's the point? And that part about messing with Mecca was to show His divinity, not that He was an empowered pir, and it will never be accepted by Islamics as anything but a challenge and a heresy.

Whitewashing the problem doesn;'t make it go away, especially since we already have an epidemic of date rapes and coercive sexual relationships to blackmail conversions among desis who are Hindu, Sikh and Christian because fundamentalists still interpret these haddiths to justify force and sexual degradation in order to compel conversions. Since it is an epidemic problem, what good will come from turning a blind eye and denials, except to act in collusion by so doing. And why not be honest about the bloody history? there was a reason why Hindutva activists took apart Babri Masjid stone by stone. Babbar was a horrible debauched child molestor, drunkard and butcher who built his masjid over the ancient Hindu temple he destryed in invasions. So if Muslims are to understand the rancor of Hindutva activists instead of blindly rushing to fight and die to defend any Muslim mosque sitting anywhere in the world, they have to understand this history. The fact is, it was Muslims who killed 2 Sikh Gurus and the Sahibzaday and countless thousands of Sikhs under torture in order to force conversions. How can Islam have any honest relationship with Sikhi or with Hinduism for that matter, since MILLIONS were tortured, raped and killed in these invasions, and NOT be aware of what the problems are?

You see, I was promoting a "reform" of Islam and not a reform of Hinduism and Sikhism to conform to Islamic ideals. if Islam can reform the violence and intolerance of other religions within itself, then we have a platform for dialogue and can rebuke the extremists. but as it stands now, Muslims only turn a blind eye to the basis for ideology of extremism AND the criminal actions it still justifies. Because it isn't about what you or I think, or even what Sufis or Bahai's think. It's about what the respected Islamic scholars worldwide think and interpret isn't it? And right anyone sends missionaries into Islamic countries, they get put to death. And the Muslim converts get put to death. But Islam demands every right to convert in every country of the world. WHY?

Because they believe and teach that they alone are the one true religion. And that is NO WAY to have any secular society of equality when the fundamental precept is based on inequality and nonacceptance. And THAT is the issue Hindutva has with Islam.

Then honestly and properly address those issues and concerns I pointed out. Even Hindutva RSS/BJP accepts Muslims into membership provided they agree to those terms of renouncing conversion of Hindus and as Indian citizens placing India first and not loyalty to Islam or any foreign Islamic country. But I do not see anywhere in the world any Islamic organization which would accept a non-Muslim as a spiritual equal and renounce the perogative of conversion. And you see, whether or not they are personally Sufi in orientation and not Wahabis, they have an organization called Sikh-MUSLIM unity. And Islam is not defined as Sufism. And Islam does not leave any room to tolerate Sikhi, let alone Hinduism. Not only would you have to reform the haddiths. You would have to reform the Quran itself to make it so.

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I'll be impressed when I see Muslims trying to start a Hindu friendship page since weaning Sikhs away from Hindu unity and Indian nationalism has long been the goal of Pakistan.  Also, I would have higher respect for Muslims if I saw them actually trying to reform the vioklence of certain parts of Haddiths and Quran instead of maintaining silence and/or collusion with the radical interpretation.  Also, I am very dismayed that Islam actively promotes conversion and condemnation of Hinduism, yet threatens death penalty on any Muslim who converts.

You should consider that Islam will never honestly accept guru Granth Sahib as valid spiritual teaching because of the devatay and avtaray which are part of the teaching, regardless of whether mainstream Sikhi subornates them to demi-god status or not.  And as to Gurus ever being any kind of "Abrahamic prophet" it's a stretch.  Sufism borrows from the Hindu Bhaktas and the Nath yogis and teaches many things condemned to death by Islamic fundamentalists.  in which case, I do not see how there can be "friendship" in general with Islam at all, until the death threats and condemnations and blanket rejection of every other religion ceases.

It is the language of the bhakti sants, as even Sikhs acknowledge, not the royal courts, sorry Jio.  Maybe you should get out of the pind more.  Braj is not based on Raj but on Vraja where Krishna was born.  Seriously why this insane argumentativeness simply to refute everything I point out?  As you said, it doesn't matter much.  today India is 80% Vaishnav, and of those sampraday what percentage can be traced to the Ramaujacharya or the Chaitanya reform and the subsequent bhakti movement which influenced Punjab during time of Guru Sahibaan?  See, the point is you can't negate the influence and have any credibility.  nevertheless it proves nothing about how modern Sikhism has evolved doctrinally either.

But what is to be gained by denials?  It's just obvious that Guru Sahib had respect for authentic vaishnav sants, and their Dvaitic, somewhat monotheistic worldview is actually praised, whereas, you cannot say that is a worldview held by 80% of Indian Hindus now can you?

Oh, and why is the very language Braj Bhasha used in so many Sikh granths....and that is the language of the /drumroll... Vaishnava scholars and sants.  Imagine! How preposterous and unfounded!

"According to ancient Hindu texts such as the Shrimad Bhagavatam [Vaishnava], the kingdom of King Kams is described as spreading through the Braj (also known as Vrij or Vraj), where the incarnation of Krishna [Vaishnava] was born and spent his childhood days. This region lies in the Agra-Mathura area, and stretches as far as the environs of Delhi. In modern India, this area lies mostly in northwestern Uttar Pradesh, the eastern extremities of Rajasthan and the southern extremities of Haryana...Much of Hindi poetry, especially that of 'Bhakti' or devotional poetry [Vaishnava] is in this language. Some devotional poems for Krishna [Vaishnava] are also composed in Braj Bhasha." Brij Bhasha

So why did Guru Nanak Dev Ji have a Vishnu Shaligram is it's so preposterous that Vaishnavism was so unfounded?  The Sodhi family still has the relic and it is mentioned in Gurbani.  Why?  If it's preposterous would there be any linkages at all?  It's so obvious Guru Nanak Dev did not come from the Jains.  He did not come from the Shaivas.  So why...deny...the obvious?  Or is it emotional inability to simply say, yea, the early Hindu's in the Sant bhakti movement in Punjab which left lasting influence on Sikhi and perhaps the family sect Guru Sahibaan originated from were Vaishnavas.  How hard is it to say that true Saints among the Vaishnavas were respected by Guru Sahibaan, as evidenced by the inclusion of their bani?

Seriously, how does THIS small acknowledgment threaten your "Sikh" identity? /boggle

well done for typing in "vashnavism" into sikhitothemax and then copying and posting the results here. it would be better if you wre actually able to understand them. Guru Ji has in no way said that vaishnavism is elevated, they as with the muslims talk of what it is like to be a true muslim, tell of what it is like to be a true vaishnav. But again for your agenda, you have taken the Gurus words and twisted them to suit yourself. You have just tried to do what the muslims do, to try and project gurmat as a vindication of islam being the truth. and failed as they did.

So a Vaishnav is a true Gurmukh, and this contrasted with any other Hindu.  The NAAM of Vaheguru is derived from the Vaishnav NAAMS chanted to obtain mukti in the Kaliyug.  The sankirtan of the Lord's praise and the Shabda Brahm which is the pranava basis of every mantra has the power to wash the karams and samskaras from the mind according to Vaishnav theology.  All the Bhatts and nearly all the bhagats who defined the MAT which appears so much as accepted part of Gurmat were Vaishnavas.

Yet you are saying there was NO discernable Vaishnava influence on Gursikhi?  LOL.  w/e floats your boat.

Be careful. You keep denying and failing to deal with the obvious problems in Sikh sangat, and one day it might be your own beloved son.

The issues are bigger than you personally. The facts are clear, threats and bullying, swaggering bravado do not touch the heart of the problems in Sikh/Punjabi community. they only push the problems underground where they fester like a cancer. the problems are not "other religions." The problem is lack of community, lack of cohesion, lack of sadhu sangat, lack of spiritually mature role models and waaayyy too much pindu mentality pretending to be "Sikh religion."

So everyone on earth is a fake, but fake sangats which are unloving, alienating, ostracizing are NOT fake, eh? You have no concept of the real issues if you think that. Seriously, you must be like an atheist who doesn't believe in God or some small pindu who thinks he has God in his own hip pocket and looks down at everyone else as "fake." At the same time ignoring own fakes, granthis who only want money, who download porn during Akhand paaths, gurdwaras that are like social clubs who fawn after wealthy contributors and ignore everyone else. is this the kind of "fake" you were talking about? Because people stop going to Gurdwara when they get bombarded with materialism, semi-atheism, gangsterism, etc.

So my point is not to bash on Gurdwaras but the problems being discussed in this thread are real, and that hand that points a finger of blame at everyone else has four other fingers pointing back at oneself. The PROBLEM is the unloving charlatans in own sangat who pretend to be the "true Sikhs." And this mentality drives people away. People will go to where they are welcomed. Now, maybe it doesn't affect "you personally." But honestly, look around your local sangat, and tell me their aren't marginalized, alienated, ignored people. And I will tell you now, what I told earlier...Sikh community is losing those people. No! Sikh community is throwing them away, and then crying about all the fakes and hypocrites and refusing to look in the damn mirror. And this business about bullying, mocking, further ostracizing and even (not necessarily you) threatening people who already aren't fitting in goes a long way to making certain they never do.

And you can blame everyone else and hide behind Sikh religion. But as the post by SDP stated clearly, without a sadhu sangat, and feeling hatred and rejection from own Singhs, people definitely will search for God elsewhere. Because they can. Because God isn't only with the fake people who pretend so much and ignore so many and delude themselves as only people in the world who have a "real" spirituality when they don't even know what that is.

the criticism here was never about Sikhism. It was about problems in this Kaliyug with Sikhs in general. And having also experienced some of that myself, I can attest to the truth of these kinds of problems where someone is just like garbage to the rest of the sangat. And people who steal and cheat and run big successful businesses become the most beloved....for their $$$.

Yea, fake pirs and babas all right. Next time, take an honest look at own local granthis. Not everything is fake. Not every Sikh sangat sincere. THAT is the problem we are discussing here.

As to Namaz or yoga, or poojas or whatever, seriously it's less a sin to sincerely seek than the hard-drinking abusive "elders" in own community whose entire life is a fake, who beat their wives and cheat on their amrit and STILL are respected and fawned after. You think the kids don't know these things are going on? You think it's just some post with an agenda? I know 3 very intelligent and well-educated boys who gave up their amrit and quit going to Gurdwara AFTER their rich businessman father divorced their mother (who kept faithfully her amrit vows) and was literally HATED and OSTRACIZED by entire Gurdwara because her rich ex-husband was a "committee member." So that's 3 former amritdhari boys right there. And when that duplicitous father dies, that whole family is already gone. Was it a good exchange? Some greased palms to throw away the faith of 3 Sikh boys?

See, that's the point. Those are the problems. And it's not about saying namaz or hail mary or hail devi. It's about finding a COMMUNITY that actually welcomes you and gives you a sense of sangat with a spiritual vibration. So instead of trashing and mocking what you obviously can't understand, you should do some soul searching about your own local community. Because blame and bullying and threats of violence are far too often the ONLY response to these kinds of problems. Just like when the kids of the amritdhari committee member threw rocks at and chased those 3 amritdhari boys out of the Gurdwara parking lot...in a show of support for their drinking, wife beating, cheating father...well, for his money anyway. I assure you, they will never forget the terribly cruel and ugly things said about their faithful amritdhari mother by that sangat. And I know why they don't go to Gurdwara anymore. And if one day they want to recite namaz or practice yoga or do Buddhist meditation or attend a pooj at mandir...God bless them. May the God Govinda who is mercy reach them in whatever way they can be reached. Isn't that what it's about anyway?

Dalsingh101 writes:

And Bhai Vir Singh was not supporting them as his thesis?  Of course he was, since the "white" re-interpretation of what Hinduism teaches happened to coincide with the Singh Sabha definitions of Hindu Mat.  And since the sources were a deliberate demonization of Hindu Mat based on British colonial re-interpretations, I find it shameful to resurrect such shameful scholarship, let alone promote the author as some kind of "great Sikh" for his service...which was to promote distortions of Hindu Mat in order to further drive wedge between Sikhi and it's Indic philosophical heritage.  Since Bhai Vir Singh has been their "spokesman" and not any kind of authentic authority on Devi in any kind of Hindu context, his text is biased and prejudicial to any authentic understanding.

Do listen to yourself, and understand the nature of Bhai Vir Singh's actual work which was deliberate distortion in furtherance of this agenda.

Only if you ignore the validity of the scholaship of the various Acharyas and Sampradayas which promoted authentic understanding.  But of course, those were not "white" and had no access to wealth and fame and mass distribution in the "world of academia."  So if Sikhi subornated itself to such shoddy "reinterpretations" and incipient racism we should laud the fool who did so?  But, "it's just that hateful Hinduism, so who cares," right?

You mean he was a brainwashed tool of the imperialistic British and he prejudices and outrageous misrepresentations should somehow be excused?  Don't tell me...because his name is "Singh" and therefore no matter HOW outlandish his positions he should be "respected" as a "great" scholar and his work somehow justified in context of the great DAMAGE he did to misrepresentations of Hindu thought to the Sikh masses?

Yes, much like the theory all Jatts are attractive Aryans and all the Hindu's are dark-skinned niggers?  And where do you suppose THIS cannard comes from?  Wait, don't tell me, the British again.  See, the authentic Hindu scholars and Acharyas wrote sublimely beautiful and uplifting things, and not this jibberish that passes itself off as "Hindu philosophical thought."  It doesn't take an intellect to see the moral wrong in these ridiculous racist theories.  You didn't have to read a textbook to understand that it promoted the worst abuses of colonialism.

So why do you all keep defending him as some kind of scholarly "great" and treat all my valid criticisms as so much trash?

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Where do you think the discipline of chanting the Holy Names, of singing the Lord's praise comes from?  You think it is an "accident" that in Gursikhi the Maha mantra is patterned after the bija syllables of the Maha mantra of Mahaprabhu Chaitanya?  It is no accident at all. 

V= Vishnu, Vasudeyva

H = Hari Krishan

G = Govinda

R = Rama

 You may subordinate as mere "kritam" naams or antreev meanings and lower case all the names of the Divine.  But the fundamental import is that, contrary to propaganda, Vaishnavs were not worshipping the demi-gods of pakriti, but the One Supreme Absolute known by all these namas.  And it was Vaishnava philosophy which teaches originally that reciting the NAAM of the Lord is the boat of mukti for the Kali Yuga, as it was same avtaray of the Absolute taking the form of Sat Guru for the Ages and for the world to preserve Dharma whose names are being praised as the Divine Beloved of the female jivas.

Vaishnavism is not the primary philosophy in Gurbani, you only spout this rubbish because there are SOME similarities between Gurmat and vaishnavism, but there are just as many dis-similarites between Gurmat and vaishnavism that you should take care to read.

This is why you will never succeed here, your understanding of Gurbani is based on it being an extension of Vaishnavism, whereas our Gurus entertained no such ideas, indeed such ideas being redundant in Kalyug.

And you need to understand Gurbani on the antreev meanings rather than take literal meanings that use the words, "vishnu...ram...hari...gopal..."etc, and use them for your misguided agenda.

Eh?  Tell me this simple thing...who were all the bhatts whose bani appears in Gurbani?  They were Vaishnavas, yes?  ALL of them.  And the bhagats whose bani appears in Gurbani, were all of them also Vaishnavs with one exception.....sehajiya SUFI Baba Farid.  So that's 99.9% of all the bani which is not Guru's own bani that belongs to Vaishnav school.  And you will now say some preposterous unfounded thing about Vaishnavism is NOT the primary philosophy which occurs alongside Guru Sahibaan own thoughts.  Really?  And do tell which "other" philosophy has been elevated so highly as Vaishnavism within own Gurbani, hmm?

Now, where do the teachings of accepting all castes and outcastes as spiritual equals, serving community kitchen to feed the poor, singing sankirtan of the Lord's praise, NAAM jap, Mahamantra, and keeping company of the Sadhu sangat come from?

Answer: Vaishnavism.

How terrible this is.  How can anybody have happiness with things when they treat jivas this way.

"It's interesting that had the original question of the topic poster been asked of a Sikh a decade ago the automatic answer would have been a NO and possibly followed by a rebuke to the questioner for asking such a question. Not offence to the original poster but that that is what would have happened a few years ago."

Yes that's a real solution to all the honest problems expressed by the original poster.  Threaten them and treat them rudely if they dare tell the truth about problems.  I have a better idea, why not do an honest evaluation of own Sikhi community and look for the ways the problems could be alleviated, rather than justified, denied, and blamed on the persons who lose faith with you.  And don't blame GURU!  People lose faith with Sadhu sangat because they don't have one.  Gursikhi is predicated on having a sadhu sangat.  Otherwise Sikhi is just a do-it-yourself exercise.  And then people get blamed when they have insights and understandings which diverge from (put whatever fanatical little rejecting sect you want here).  If we don't have wise, spiritually mature elders in a true sangat, people won't reach that maturity for themselves.  So this is what we see in Kaliyug, a spiritual stunting, a showmanship, holy clothes without holy hearts,  rote memorization and no sincere, caring wisdom.

Well keep ostracizing, trashing and threatening people who lose faith with you and even for daring to question and spiritually search.  But don't be surprised if the next generation flees.  Without love you have nothing at all.  The roop does not represent anything without love of people and caring about their problems and their human needs.  People are willing to die for their brother.  No one is willing to live for a community which doesn't exist for them.

Think about it.  If some pir or guru or sect is willing to give somebody shelter and acceptance and welcoming, who in the hell is anybody to judge it?  Least of all to hide their own hatred and rejection of people.  The scandal isn't the people who leave you.  The scandal is the behaviors which cause them to leave.  You can't keep anybody by bullying.  Better you should try to befriend and respect them and understand what the difficulty is.  And accept, that sometimes somebody really may spiritually belong to another Master.  But why lose a friend?  See, this is fanatical thinking.  

"There was not 1 but truck load of stories about how hindu's gave shelter and saved lives of sikhs.but on the other hand their is hardly any story Whether Hindu-sikhs actually came forward to protect Gurdwara's or Guru granth sahib."

If I saw an innocent human being in danger of harm, I would like to think I would have the dharma to act protectively on his behalf. If I saw a mob of hundreds or an Army surrounding and destroying any building, including mosque, mandir or gurdwara, I'm certain that I would not throw my life away in some misbegotten delusion that I alone could preserve it.

There is quite an overlap of political issues involved here. Under Indira's government and emergency, all kinds of abuses were happening to all kinds of people. Tell me, did Sikh-Sikhs stop the abuses of the Punjab Police or was that simply let to the khardkhus? now ask yourself WHY any family man would endanger his family to get involved in something well beyond his abilities to defend? But if it came to protecting the lives of his neighbors, this he would do.

Evil and injustices are part of this world. They are ugly and reprehensible. But you will find it to be an error to try and blame any one group or religion for all the evils and injustices. Good people there always will be, and bad people, and many gradations in-between. The fact that some Hindu's tried to save lives of some Sikhs during time when their own lives were at risk is something commendable. It shows that there will always be good people no matter what. But if you think the average person, Sikh or Hindu or Muslim wants to rush out and lay down his life and his families lives to protect the Bhindranwale movement staging itself against entire Indian Army, you will be disappointed. those who believed in what they were doing acted nobly according to their beliefs, and they died fighting. That much I will acknowledge. But I don't believe what they did was right, and had they not taken an anti-government stance, the attack and subsequent pogroms and gallughara would not have occurred.

I do not expect Sikhs in disapora to rush out and lay down their lives and their families lives to defend...say the Mexican nationals from the slaughter of the anti-drug wars. I do not expect average persons to risk their lives lightly in any dangerous political situations they are not directly involved with. WHY? because then I would be advocating suicide.

No one owes anyone anything, not even to risk their life to save a life. However, we are responsible to act with dharma. Sometimes to act with dharma means taking a desperate risk, especially against injustice. But generally, unless you are a soldier, it is not the general dharma. the Operation Bluestar was then and remains now, controversial, with average Indian citizen agreeing with the government that it was a secessionist movement in collusion with Pakistan and not unlike the Naxal rebellion. Why would average Indian citizen, however close to Sikhism, or even as a Sikh be expected to believe and agree with Sant Bhindranwale? Sympathy may have been there for the many injustices and problems, but not to such degree as to want to raise arms against own Army. And this is not to say that Operation bluestar was justified, it was clearly botched! It clearly reflected the extremism of Indira government. But the average person would have shut the doors tight and tried not to get involved. Up until Operation Bluestar the majority of Sikhs did not really support Sant Bhindranwale and so the militants alone were waging the battle, not the ordinary Sikhs, nor any Hindu-Sikhs or Muslim-Sikhs. After Operation Bluestar, the government pitched into a pogrom against Sikhs and there wasn't any choice.

Does that make the average person a bad person? I don't think so. The average person isn't some kind of television superhero. real bullets will severely wound and kill him. He is wise who values his life and uses discretion and caution. He is wise who acts with dharma when he has to, and not from arrogance or false belief in his own invincibility.

"all that would be truth for you behen ji but please understand that we can only take references from birs, gutkas, sateeks, granths and not from you ."

And this entire post...about the racist nonsense regarding origination of Devi as black-skinned inferior native contrasted with the white skinned Arya...this is the kind of "references" you are "allowed?"  But my refutation of the same is not allowed?

I accuse you of hypocrisy and logical inconsistency!  Our thought differences do not justify disrespect!  Our differences cannot negate that historically in addressing these concepts there has been overlap and that distortions and misrepresentations do offend someone like me.  And I feel that gives me the right to interject and promote a more "credible" Vaishnav Hindu perspective.  Did I ever say anyone must agree with my opinion simply to evaluate the proper historical or philosophical context of Vaishnav theology?

What you accept as authoritative spirituality does NOT give you the right to categorically fault and misrepresent Hindu Mat the way many posts on this forum have done.  Do you think I would even be interested in Bhai Vir Singh at all if he did not write such outrageous distortions begging for honest clarification?  And I ask you also this...is this forum closed to everyone EXCEPT Khalsa Singhs?  In the past the answer was given as "no."  Perhaps that's changed.  I have a right to correctly present the Hindu Mat interpretations in the face of gross distortions.  This article and topic thread after all, is about Bhai Vir Singh's opinions of Devi in relation to britishized history more than about the actual scriptural and symbolic representations of Devi from within own Indic culture.

So my opinion on the subject is valid regardless of whether you consider it personally authoritative for your own spiritual beliefs and practice.

Why don't you refute Bhai Vir Singh's assertions as laid out under the translated section devi in Gurmat?

I did.  I found his racist construction insulting and preposterous, arrogant pro-British toadyism.  You can re-read my refutation if you like, the one you said you wouldn't bother to read.  I refuted him soundly on the actual basis of the Hindu meanings of the dark color of Devi and Her unity with Krishna in the symbolism.

Too petty to deserve a response.

That it springs from a fundamental misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Hindu philosophy destroys its scholarly credibility.  But it does suit a propagandistic politicized purpose.

Take the Vaishnavism which is the primary philosophy encountered in Gurbani which is contrasted with the ritualistic brahminvaad which antagonized the Vaishnav Sant Bhakti reform.

Are there any Sikhs, let alone Bhai Vir Singh who even bother to make the distinction?  Does it occur to you that the brahmin-by-birth ritualistic Hindus are castigated by Guru Sahib, and the Vaishnos are praised as true gurumukhs?  But all are swept into one condemned umbrella of brahminvaadi, Hindutva Hindus.

Stop and reflect, if you are able, that the Vaishnavs are considered a "form" of monotheism...and reflect what the implications of a faulty strawman construction to denegrate their teachings by associating with beliefs and practices they do not have and even forbid.  It destroys credibility.  There is no soundness in such a position paper.  Bhai Vir Singh has written a position paper, and it reflects his biases and mentality...which are decidedly ignorant of vaishnavism AND anti-Hindu.  After setting up the false strawman of what Hindu's are supposed to believe, he asserts the Sikh position/correction.  But since what he started with was false in the first place...it fails to deliver.

Vaishnavs don't worship the demi-gods or the partial opulences.  they RESPECT the demi-gods and partial opulences recognizing they come from the One True Divine! Who is not merely "formless" but formless as well as taking infinite variety of forms.

Can't handle very much can you.  How unbecoming a Singh.

I wrote you one post after how long?  And you whined about what a trashy person I am and all the silly reasons why you can't bring yourself to even consider the validity of my criticisms.  Yes, that's real intelligence.

I', pointing out their flagrant propagandistic distortions of actual hindu teaching by contrasting with actual Hindu teaching.  I can't very well praise them for their anti-Hindu, anti-native Indian hate campaign now can I?

And this kind of attitude from a "spiritual person."  What a joke.  You don't agree?  Then ignore or refute the points of my post.  To degenerate to name-calling and personal smears and insults just shows the kind of low caliber person you really are, when you aren't "pretending" to be some kind of 'spiritual."

In addition the haddiths also teach that the prophet beheaded jews and raped jewish women as well as destroying pagan places of worship. I am building on the idea of how much respect would one have for such a religion, I have seen that what a sikh gets out of paath is sukh, shanti so do muslims gets out of namaz. I am also seeking the answers of broadminded thinkers not in a narrow minded way of thinking, Sikhism teaches pluraism even though many Muslims are separtists, a sikh does not need to compromise the belief of pluarism in return. Thank you amardeep would you say purely because you would have to accept the prophet muhammad as the final prophet or just entirety as a prophet? Gurbani itself says if you do not do namaz 5 times a day you are not a muslim.

He said: "I am also seeking the answers of broadminded thinkers not in a narrow minded way of thinking,"

So I would respond that everyone has made an honest point. If you are feeling so cut off, you will not do wrong to explore something inclusive like Sufism or Bahais. Although you have answered yourself with fundamentalist Islam being example of severe intolerance and that isn't what you're seeking. Sikhi itself is without blemish, but it is (my own experience) very hard to find a sadhu sangat of spiritually wise and mature people. But don't condemn them overall for being simply human. People are where they are at. They may have grey hairs and even act as panj piare, and STILL be obnoxious, self-centered and unwelcoming persons. They also, in justice do not represent Sikhi, they can only represent themselves. Sikhi of course if viable and valid path. But as was pointed out honestly, can be very hard to walk when on veers and bhens are derailing you or ignoring and excluding you.

I don't think it is really a crisis unless you start to become like those who oppose you. It will not hurt you to explore other things, try Buddhist meditation, hatha yoga classes, join a Sufi Dhikr session, or do namaz. If some people find it objectionable (and I am really not pro-Muslim at all actually) they would find you objectionable anyway. I think it's important to sincerely search. The fact of the matter is there are saints of all religions because the God is One. Do your best to find that solace in this suffering world and so brief a life. Ultimately you are an atma and not a limited material identity from a certain country with a particular religion. You are free. You have always been free. You will always be free. And through many lifetimes have already been all these things.

If we people look for the mutual unity and respect of all these teachings, we could love each other. Imagine, we could bring heaven down to earth.

God is God no matter where or how you seek Him. And you are beloved of the God no matter how many mistakes you make. Just, be yourself, and do what comes natural. It is the culmination of many lives now distant, with some vague memories of many loved ones now distant. Don't be afraid to simply be "open" to what life brings you by way of spiritual practices. Some things will bring you closer based on YOUR karamas, vasanas, vrittis and kaleshas, and no one else can understand what moves and motivates you or why you think and act the way you do. Just remember that life is precious and all people are dear to the God. Remember that tolerance and respect for others is part of the inner purification that helps us see the "God in all."

And whether you come closer to Sikhi or go farther away, God is still God and you are ever a part of Him. Something deep within a human being can never be lost from Divine Love. So don't worry, just be sincere. Out of sincerity of the heart comes true compassion which is the true spirituality of the world. Try to be that. It's the saints really, of all races and religious traditions who come into the Presence of God. So you can't go wrong if you just love the good things.

Harjas Kaur:

A simple question. Can you name me 3 Sikh scholars for the past 300 years who held the same view on Sikhi as you do?

Since I am a Hindu, I do not care. I am only presenting a HINDU viewpoint and sharing a HINDU Mat perspective on the REFERENCES and CONCEPTS derivative from ANCIENT Hindu philosophical sources and traditions which appear in Sikh Guru bani. So why do any of you "care" whether any "SIKH" agrees with me? These are still valid Hindu mat sources and interpretations. As to the references to association of Sikhi with Vaishnav Sehajiyas and Bauls. Yes, there are a few papers written, it was not my insight. Evaluate the references and study for yourselves if you are interested. LOL, how ridiculous you all are, falling over yourselves to spew literal anti-Hindu hate and disrespect of someone elses beliefs, practices and Guru to prove some juvenile point about ignorance and intolerance and derailing your own interesting thread because someone with a different perspective (a woman no less) DARED to post something the majority wouldn't agree with.

Childish. Typical. Yes, in 10 years perhaps you will develop the maturity and insight to realize how terribly behaved you all are, and that life is a lot simpler if you "live and let live."

You want the best for me? LOL, which of the death threats I wonder intended that? Yes, that I'm afraid do not believe. Now stop calling me back to answer challenges, as Chatanga1 did on the Raja Janaka post which brought me back, and I will kindly and happily stay away.

thats harjas kaur , harjas devi and above all harjas behen ji !

Yes, well I'm no longer Harjas Kaur, so you may all breathe a sigh of relief that the evil monster with horns is now dead. It's simply the account is under this name, and also, I will not share publicly what my new name is, you understand, death threats, harassment and anti-Hindu hatreds, and such. Ten years from now you may all reflect on how you treat people with such utter hate and disrespect chasing them far away from you, and be ashamed.

/Namaskaram

"That foot juice she's been drinking from her gooroo must be some seriously potent stuff."

Yes the kind that you should be drinking to give you humility and show even a modicum of respect for your own purataan Gursikhi tradition. By disrespecting the tradition you disrespect own heritage. Foolish boy! But what can one expect from someone who foot worships the goray culture instead.

Harjas

Do you really expect anyone to take your post seriously?

All these years and you still haven't learned the art of composing a concise post and you still run riot with colour like an infant with a new pack of crayons.

After receiving 16 death threats and rudest bullying hate campaign from people with the name of Singh? Naw... I do not expect very much from any of you, sadly.

But if you simply do the independent research, I have honestly pointed you all in the right direction which is the understanding that Sikhism actually developed it's own philosophy out of a syncretism of the existing philosophies of the day and reflects regional and sectarian influences. It's just that I saw this post sincerely struggling to relate the concepts of Shakt Devi and Vaishno background. I wanted to help. That anyone would evaluate the concepts and historicity I have referred to without degenerating like dirty minded nindaks into personal slurs and defamation? Haha, I expected well as much and worse even. Since I have repudiated Sikhism... and am simply a "Hindu" there is really no need for your abusive tone any longer. I have shared an opinion based on studies. Do the studies for yourselves and hate on someone who poses a "real" threat to you, instead of some lady on the internet with a Hindu Mat background sharing a historical opinion.

Too bad really if you think a materialistic history written clearly to appease British Lords offers any kind of authentic or even symbolic insight into how Shri Dasam Granth bani relates to Shri Adi Guru Granth bani as it is clear there was a development of sorts reflecting both the benign appearance of Das Avtaray as well as what the Buddhi people call Heruka deities, or wrathful deities, or perhaps, the Left hand tantric Marg more suited to becoming a destructive military force than an ahimsa based sant sampraday.

But, oh well, keep reading fluff like this:

"It should also be remembered that when Shivji’s wife is being described, it is as the daughter of the Aryan king of Kanakla, Dakya Prajapati. From this we can infer that the gentle devi* is the daughter of Aryan thought and the fearsome devi was the black mother figure of the original darked hued inhabitants [of India]. The Himalayas have also been considered to be Parbati’s father and from this we can correctly say that the Himalayan daughter is the Aryan devi and that the ‘Kali’ resident in the Vindhyachal mountains is the devi of the ancient, true residents [of India].

When the Aryan folk mixed with the real races [of the region], those people were eclipsed by Vedic thought so that their modes of worship came to be mixed together."

Hehe, yeah, real "scholarship" there. Okay, carry on then taking it seriously. You might do better to consider the influences of the Nath Yogis on the tantric kundalini yoga system which explains the nine gates and the dasam duar as well as the Maha Mantra NAAM of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Raag kirtan of the Vaishnav and Sufi Bauls a little more closely if you ever want to come anywhere near the actual "truth" of it.

P.S. And do not care how many rude insults I receive from prejudiced people so called "Singh" who are so afraid of exploring alternate philosophical and historical viewpoints they degenerate into insulting and threatening petty 5 year olds because they can't deal with the actual "issues." But I did not show up here to annoy you, so I leave you with what I wrote. Ignore at your leisure~

And keep reading the fluff stuff about inferior dark skinned races, barbaric Kali Thuggees and "glorious" white civilized Ayans. LOL. Yes, indeedy! Kali is black in color, and so is Krishna, sharing the bija mantras because all colors merge into black and it reflects the nirgun transcendental nature of that which has superceded the creation and the ordinary. Hence to the Vaishnavas, Bhagavan Krishna represents the Totality of the Parabrahm, and to the Shaktas Mata Bhavani Maha Maya represents the feminine expression of the same Totality which is AKAL, beyond the Kali time of material modes of nature.

"Her three eyes represent past, present, and future, — the three modes of time — an attribute that lies in the very name Kali ('Kala' in Sanskrit means time). The eminent translator of Tantrik texts, Sir John Woodroffe in Garland of Letters, writes, "Kali is so called because She devours Kala (Time) and then resumes Her own dark formlessness."Kali's proximity to cremation grounds where the five elements or "Pancha Mahabhuta" come together, and all worldly attachments are absolved, again point to the cycle of birth and death." Kali: The Dark Mother

"Kali as Kundalini is also a Vedic idea - Kali as Speech or Vak resides in the Muladhara Chakra as Brahma or Brahmanaspati in later times, showing the Vedas or Speech. The female form of Brahma is Saraswati, who is also called Sarparajini, the 'Serpent Queen', as Kundalinishakti is the Nagini (female Serpent). Saraswati is also clearly Kundalini in the Veda (Rig.VI.61.11-12)." KALI AS THE VEDIC LANGUAGE

---------------------------------

Kali as Shakti represents the power of Vakhia and Mantra which begins with the breath, She is the eternal bija of creation power as well as destructive power. She is Bhadrakali as well as Maha Kal. And so She is symbolically related to the power of NAAM and the Primal NADA.

Various explanations of the word "param brahma" are given in the scriptures. For example, the Vishnu Purana declares:

"The wise know that the word 'param brahma' means 'He who is the greatest' and 'He who nourishes and protects all living entities'".

The Gautamiya Tantra also gives the following explanation of the word "parambrahma":

"The word 'krs' means 'eternal transcendental existence' and 'na' means 'spiritual pleasure'.

These two syllables, meaning eternal existence and spiritual pleasure, are joined to become the word 'Krishna', the name of the parambrahma...

"Durga is the supreme goddess. She is an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She is the transcendental potency of the Lord. She is manifested from the form of Lord Maha-Vishnu.

"Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise.

"She is identical with Gokula's queen Shri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood.

"She is the potency of personified devotional service. She worships Her beloved Supreme Lord. Because She is understood only with great difficulty, the saintly devotees call her "durga" (difficult to understand). She is the personal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and she is always filled with the nectar of love for Him.

"From her is manifested the maha-maya potency, the controller of all conditioned souls, who covers them with illusion. By this maha-maya potency the residents of the entire world are bewildered into thinking themselves identical with their external material bodies."

In the Sammohana Tantra, Durga herself declares:

"I am Durga. I possess all virtues. I am not different from Shri Radha, the eternal, supreme goddess of fortune."

In this way the word "durga" is explained. In this verse of Brahma-samhita the words "premananda" and "mahananda" refer to the fullest development of transcendental bliss. "Jyoti-rupena" means "self-manifested", and "manuna" means "by the mantra". The mantra is accompanied by the bija-syllable (kama-bijena sangatam). The kama-bija syllable in this mantra elaborately described in another passage where the independence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is explained." Shrila Jiva Goswami’s Brahma-samhita Commentary

The relationships between these concepts and the symbolism I have described is not idiotic mental gymnastics seeking to politically please goray masters and some racist paradigm justifying exploitation of a colonial vassal. These are well established spiritual principles grounded in Vedic and Shastric and Tantric traditions. They are not even my own interpretation, but sharing a historical background in Hindu Mat to help you better understand the Shastric and Upanishadic background of these stories and symbols within own Gurmat. All any of you have to do is RESEARCH for yourselves. But you seem so averse to Hindu Mat sources, even as these philosophies and symbolism originates from that source, you still prefer the Anglicized corrupted interpretations. What shoddy scholarship!

Anyway, I'm done explaining what you don't even care to hear. You can trash Devi as some kind of primitive, inferior black race handmaid of white Masters if it suits your political perogatives. Maybe these concepts are safer if you water them down with such ignorant distortions. You can well imagine what sort of understanding you derive from it.

Haribol!

"I don't feel Muslims have trapped me just through so many years of past interactions even though I am a keshdhari Sikh, I feel alienated, not-appreciated, demonised, betrayed, back stabbed, segregated and hated by Sikhs where as this is not the case with Christians and Muslims."

That is the saddest indictment of spiritual deterioration and corruption in a sampraday that I have ever read. How sad this truly is, especially since every human being is a spark of the Divine we call the Beloved One.

Jaikaara writes:

What makes you think that Dasmesh pita expanded the bhakti style practice and incorporated raj joga?

Hi, the answer is starring you all right in front of the face. But you are so close to it and so uneducated in Hindu Mat and sectarian differences that you can't see so many obvious things. In this case, I can't resist to explain, although I fully expect cheap shots, assorted hostile abuse and more.

Sikhi didn't CHANGE from Vaishno influence to Raj Jog influence. You smart guys simply are missing an important piece (several actually) of the historical puzzle. SIKHI originates from the sect known as....Vaishnav Sehajiyas!

Hi, thanks, you can thank me for pointing your absurd gymnastic intellectual exercise in the proper direction. And BTW, Bhai Vir Singh is a complete English brainwashed idiot. The Tantras teach that Kali is an incarnation of Krishna and most Shakta poetry is basically a praise of Krishna and Kali.

Ok wait....some proof since you guys ALWAYS accuse me of inventing facts simply because you do not RECOGNIZE any...

Baul (Bengali: বাউল, Hindi: बाऊल) are a group of mystic minstrels from Bengal. Bauls constitute both a syncretic religious sect and a musical tradition. Bauls are a very heterogeneous group, with many different subsects, but their membership mainly consists of Vaishnava Hindus and Sufi Muslims.^[1][2] They can often be identified by their distinctive clothes and musical instruments. Not much is known of their origin, as little documentation took prior to the 20th century, however poet laureate Rabindranath Tagore works and Rabindra Sangeet has had deep influence on its music, Baul Gaan (song) often accompnied by Gopiyantro or Ektara.^[3][4]

The origin of the word is Baul is debated. Some modern scholars, like Shashibhusan Das Gupta have suggested that it may be derived either from Sanskrit word vatula, which means (divinely inspired) insane or from vyakula, which means impatiently eager and both of these derivations are consistent with the modern sense of the word, which denotes the inspired people with an ecstatic eagerness for a spiritual life, where a person can realise his union with the eternal beloved - the Maner Manush (the man of the heart)^[6]

The origin of Bauls is not known to any great degree of accuracy, but the word Baul has appeared in Bengali texts as old as the 15th century. The word is found in the Chaitanya-bhagavata of Vrindavanadas as well as in the Chaitanya Charitamrita of Krishnadas Kaviraj.^[7] Some scholars, however, maintain that it is not clear when the word took its sectarian significance, as opposed to a synonym for the word mad. The beginning of the Baul movement was attributed to Birbhadra, the son of Vaishnavite saint Nityananda, or alternatively to the 8th century Persian minstrels called Ba'al. Bauls are a part of the culture of rural Bengal. Whatever their origin, Baul thought has mixed elements of Tantra, Sufi Islam, Vaishnavism and Buddhism. They are thought to have been influenced by the Hindu tantric sect of the Kartabhajas as well as Tantric Buddhist schools like the Sahajia. Some scholars find traces of these thoughts in the ancient practices of Yoga as well as the Charyapadas, which are Buddhist hymns that are the first known example of written Bengali. The Bauls themselves attribute the lack of historical records of themselves to their reluctance of leaving a trace behind...

The music of the Bauls, Baul Sangeet, is a particular type of folk song. It carries influences of Hindu bhakti movements as well as the suphi, a form of Sufi song mediated by many thousand miles of cultural intermixing, exemplified by the songs of Kabir, for instance. Their music represents a long heritage of preaching mysticism through songs in Bengal, like Shahebdhoni or Bolahadi sects.

Bauls use a number of musical instruments to embellish their compositions. The "ektara" is a one-stringed “plucked drum” drone instrument, and by far the most common instrument used by a Baul singer. It is carved from the epicarp of a gourd, and made of bamboo and goatskin. Other commonly used musical instruments include the dotara, This is a long-necked fretless lute. While the name literally means “two stringed” it usually has four metal strings (steel or brass); the dugi, a small hand-held earthen drum; percussion instruments like dhol and khol; small cymbals called "kartal" and "mandira" and the bamboo flute. Baul

Sahaja (Sanskrit: sahaja; Devanagari: सहज)^[1] (Chinese Tzu jan; Japanese Shizen), meaning "spontaneous, natural", is a term and style of discipline of some importance in Indian spirituality and influenced by the . The origins of the word are in , a now defunct language, and Old (first attested literary usage 8th century CE). It was first used by the north Indian Tantric Buddhist master in the 8th century CE:So from spontaneity that's unique,Replete with the Buddha's perfections,Are all sentient beings born, and in it come to rest.But it is neither concrete nor abstract.The concept of a spontaneous spirituality entered Hinduism with yogis such as and influenced the through the tradition exemplified by the of Bengal, , , and , the founder of the tradition.

Sahaja is one of the four keywords of the along with , , and . Sahaja meditation and worship was prevalent in Tantric traditions common to and in Bengal as early as the 8th–9th centuries.

Now, before you all accuse me of claiming Sikhism is actually based on the lurid accounts of the enemies and detractors of the Sahajiya heresies, allow me to explain in context. Vaishnav sampraday underwent reform movement in the appearance of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who accepted women, mlecch born and shudra castes to full brahmana initiation. This reform movement was very popular and reflected in the bani of the Vaishnav Bhatts and Bhagats. And so while the origin of the particular sect of Vaishnavism here is Ramanujacharya it is also somewhat influenced by the Bengali Bhakti movement of Gaudiya Math and the Baul Bhaktas. Notably the origin of the Nanakian concepts of the God Parabrahm as being both Nirgun AND sargun originates with Ramanujacharya and the Achintya Bheda Abheda which explains the sectarian distinction between strict Dvaita of traditional Vaishnavism and the impersonalist Advaita of Shankaracharya and actually blends them to unite both the Upanishadic and Puranic thought.

This reform movement was diametrically opposed by the brahmin-by-birth Sampradayas, and explains the context of the brahminical corrections of Gurbani. On the other hand, certain teachings and practices and blending of ideologies occurring in the Gurbani was bitterly opposed by the brahmin-by-birth groups. Those elements such as keeping hair, eating meat, taking intoxicants, hunting, non-brahmachari grihastha/married householder ashrama, and especially...multiple wives, blending the teachings of the Mayavadis/impersonalists (namely Buddhists but also members of the Shankaracharya, and the ideological offshoots including almost the entire Kashmiri territory, the Nath Shaiva yogis and their kundalini siddha traditions). So the strict, brahmin-by-birth casteist religionists with the strict sannyasi emphasis would have rejected and demonized outright Guru Nanak Dev Ji's entire movement. And how Sikhi evolved simply shows the evidence of the ideological and cultural influences. It is no accident that Kabirpanthis have the closest association with the Baul Bhakti movement. And seen from this context, the Namdhari kuka tradition is particularly similar. Just as there are similarities between the Nath yogis pranayam and the Sufi Dhikr and the Sikh's Naam Abhiyas sas giras simran techniques. The fact that the sole Sufi whose bani appears in Gurbani, Baba Farid happened to be a Sehajiya Sufi is also telling.

One interesting blend between the Vaishnav sampraday and the Nath Yogi tradition is traditional Vaishnavas use tulasi malas, and Shaivas such as the Nath Sampradaya use Rudraksha malas. In the relics of Guru Nanak preserved by the Sodhi family in Guru Har Sahai is a rudraksha bead from Guru Nanak's mala and a coin showing the image of Krishna. They also have a Vaishnav Shaligram Sila belonging to Guru Nanak Dev showing clear origination in some kind of Vaishnav Sehajiya sect as perhaps the form of Hinduism Guruji was born into. This also explains the refusal of the janeo. First, brahmins do not only receive janeo, and it makes no sense that guru Nanak as a kshatriya would receive or refuse a brahmin janeo. But all three varnas: brahmin, kshatriya and vaisha receive janeo at different ages. It is the shudra caste which are refused the janeo....with the exception of the reform movement of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who gave brahmana initiation to all the refused classes including women, such as Mirabai, born mlecchas such as Muslim born Sant Kabir and shudra castes such as Ravidas. By Guru Nanak's refusal of janeo is no refusal of brahminism or Hinduism. It may be a refusal of a certain sectarian mindset within traditional Vaishnavism and an embracing of the bhakti Sant reform movement's radical inclusive teachings.

So look here:

Original handwritten Pothi, original mala, padam and shaligram belonging to Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji. YES, Shaligram kept in Sodhi family, Guru Harsahai.

, (शिल in Devanagari, śila in refers to a () representation of , in the form of a spherical, usually black-coloured stone found in the sacred river . They are more often referred to as Shaligram Shilas, with Shila being the shortened version. The word Sila translates simply to 'stone' and Shaligram is a less well-known name of Vishnu. The origin of the name is traced to a remote village in where Vishnu is known by the name of Shaligraman...

Although Hinduism is commonly represented by such religious , is equally represented with such abstract symbols of God such as the . Moreover, Hindus have found it easier to focus on anthropmorphic icons, because Lord said in the , Chapter 12, Verse 5, that it is much more difficult to focus on God as the unmanifested than God with form, due to human beings having the need to perceive via the senses.

The ideological concept of Shunya/Sunn is decidedly Mayavadic and has strong influence from Buddhism. Such a concept would never appear in strict Vaishnav sampradaya.

So also the concept of nirvana relates to the Mayavadist schools of Buddhism and Shankaracharya's Advaita. the fact that these concepts occur in gurbani which clearly have a Dvaitic Vaishnav philosophical undercurrent in such places as:

Is a tipoff that we are evaluating one of the heretical sects of Vaishnaism and most telling:

The unification of the concept of sehaj with the keynote emphasis on Vaishnav sampradaya which is japa of Hari Nama.

So the ideological schools and their influences are clearly recognizable in Gurbani. The fact remains the guru Sahibaan clearly distinguished their own unique interpretation and elucidated their own teachings. Nonetheless, Gurmat originated within a historical and philosophical context which preceded it and can't realistically be denied.

outside Bengal, in the medieval period...

After Caitanya some of Sehajiya and Tantrics, became influential and founded some subgroups. Their influence and injection of some personal ideas, diluted the gravity and depth of the original philosophy of Caitanya in some areas. Sehajiyas were divided and subdivided into many branches, such as Aul, Baul, Sai, Daravesh, and Sehajiya."

..

In the Brihat Tantra Sara, a large compilation of tantrik rites,Krishna appears as a fully-flowered tantrika devata, with his own, , mantra and or ritual which uses this yantra (click on this image for full size yantra).In the hexagon in the centre of the yantra, the following words appear: Krishnaya Govindaya Klim sadhya Gopijanavallabhaya Svaha."

It's interesting to note the tantric association between the Das Mahavidyas of Devi and the Das Avtaray of Vaishnavism. I do believe this esoteric lore within Sanatana Dharma is the basis and origin for the Baishno and Devi Shaiv/Shakt Mat found blended in Gurmat philosophy. As to the Aryan invasion and other nonsense and utter ignorance of Bhai Vir Singh's writing, heh, well, to each his own.

But I have issues with this website and it's censorship in form of arbitrary deletions.

A Baymukhi Patit is same thing as a Kafir. So that "fantastic Sikh Q & A website is totally wrong, so it can't be fantastic. And I should be entitled to comment on that, since the personally dissing of me and my beliefs occurs here regularly.