HarjasDevi

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Finally: I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.

Shri Dasam Granth has been a focal point of controversy for 100 years. It is not even possible for Sikhs to have been attacking Hindu murthis like Aurangzeb and then sacrificing own lives to defend religious freedom. The TRANSLATION sounds out of place and I question the TRANSLATION AND INTERPRETATION, not the bani.

Your hypocrisy is incredible (and quite amusing to see).

Don't you have better things to discuss than trying to flame and discredit my every single post? Can you resolve my doubts and prove to me that the original Braj translation is an exact match with the current SGPC Punjabi translation and post relelvant tuuks here with reference citations we can all reliably cross confirm?

If you cannot, then you cannot convince me the bani is exactly accurate. It seems oddly out of place with a religion that fought Islamic oppression which did in fact bring breaking of murthis and desecrating of mandirs. Excuse me for doubting the Singh Sabha translation, it's not as if Panth Prakash was free from anti-sanatan bias to reassure people how trustworthy are Singh Sabha translations.

I am sorry in advance for my outburst, but can someone explain how the&^#k this thread changes from above to topic of status ofdevi/chandi and full of personal attacks. &*ck!^# unbelievable..!!!

Simple. Chandi di vaar. Ergo, Chandi. Some are saying it is Chandi sarguna and others saying it is Akal Purakh nirguna only.

Then if certain people see any non Khalsa Sikh opinion on Chandi it is their license to spew verbal abuse and hostility with personal attacks trying to shut down the discussion, just like on several other threads. It is intolerance at work that certain section of Sikhi finds devatay and avtaray to be anti-Gurmat and therefore despiseable. If they don't like my Hindu Mat they trash and mock my Guru.

Do you allow that? Flaming and personal attacks? If it were a sampraday they were trashing in such rude ways would it be permissible? Or is it only permissible because it's me and my hatefully despised sanatan viewpoint?

If same exact attacks, accusations and vile insults were made against Nirmalay would you speak out then? Because it isn't hard to see what's going on and who is the worst offender of common decency in a discussion. Tell me, do you agree the huge disrespect of charan pahul and calling my Guru as a cult? Everything is fake, evil, corrupted, despiseable, disgusting, open to vicious slander and tearing down, and then they think they have some great spiritual truth anybody else will be convinced of?

Do you really think all other views about God are this low and condemnable? Then if not, enforce your own rules. Personal attacks should never be tolerated. Just because someone is popular shouldn't mean they get away with acting like an ass and bullying opinions on the forum. That's not Khalsa. It's just immature behavior. I'm tired of being derailed by calling as full of feces, stupid, brain damaged from Guru's foot wash, mentally deranged and deluded cult member. This has got to stop. Didn't people's own mata Ji teach them any common decency or manners?

And I wouldn't be going off topic so much if I wasn't derailed with half-million challenges in desperate need to invalidate everything I say.

harjas

Sikhs are not idol worshippers.Sikhs are idol breakers( No offense to any religion).

Sikhs are idol breakers? Their own or other peoples idols veer ji? Please clarify.

Sikhs are not believers in caste system that is backbone of sanatan dharma.

Can you explain the difference between caste system and varna-jati system? Because Vedas AND Gurbani explains the varna-jati system as being altogether different from what has evolved into the oppressive caste system.

Please keep sanatan dharma to yourself and do not preach those ideas to us.

First of all, it's a discussion forum and the topics on it are discussing sanatan heritage of purataan granths in Sikhi history. If you feel the forum should be closed to anyone who is not a Khalsa Sikh then it should be expressly stated that way in the Rules section, that nobody but Khalsa Sikhs can express their opinions. And all the others should be banned to prevent them from contaminating your pure idea of spirituality. But please, in justice then remove the Hindu discussion forum and the Christian, Buddhist and Islamic ones as well, since having them advertises the forum is open to other perspectives then the narrow Tat Khalsa one. And that is false advertising.

It is a shame that you have chosen this site in propagating your malicious agneda here.There are millions and millions of low caste Hindus who are leading sub servient life in India.Please channelise your energy in removing disparity in Hindu society there so that they are accorded human diginty.Otherwise you are losing them to otehr religions.That should be top your priority if you care for Hinduism.Stop converting sikhs.

My opinions are a malicious agenda? And I suppose I am single-handedly responsible for Panth Prakash, Suraj Prakash, Prem Sumarag, Gur Bilas, Sau Sakhis, Janam Sakhis, Sarbloh Granth which speak of sanatan themse, symbolism, philosphy and spirituality?

And now I am responsible for removing caste system in India? Even as Sikh Panth has huge problem getting along with Mahzbi Sikhs and Chamar Sikhs? What hypocrisy! Are you kidding me?

My Hindu Guru is from shudra caste. What a joke you are. Why are you blaming our sampraday for abuses of caste system? Of course, because you have only low regard for HIndu religion, and despite presence of Sant Bhagat bani in Gurbani, you don't even believe spirituality is possible in Hindu Mat.

I don't believe in conversions, so people leaving Hinduism is responsibility of the God. I don't go around trying to bully people to stay or leave in any religion. I just wish Sikh would look at brotherhood with Hindus even to accept overlap in history and stop hating and blaming everything evil as being Hindu.

Stop converting Sikhs?

Converting them to what exactly?

I believe in Nama Jap! I believe you must have a Satguru and receive initiation and become a true disciple! I believe in sankirtan and keeping amrit vela to practice Nama Smarana/simran and dhyaan! I believe in reading Gurbani as medicine for the atma and cure and comfort for world's ills! I believe in respecting the Maryada of respecting Shri Guru Granth Sahib and should not belong in Hindu Mandir or anyplace not expressly built specifically and solely for Shri Guru Granth Sahib!

You see, I don't want you to be anything but a Sikh. But I think you should be open to the fact that sanatan heritage does exist in Sikhi as accepting legitimacy of devatay and avtaray and even within certain traditional Sikh sampraday such as Udasay, Nirmalay, Seva-panthis, Namdharis, Nanaksaris, Sant Nirankaris, Radhasoamis in varying and lesser degrees. I don't say you should believe in or join sanatan sampraday. But why you can't tolerate or accept the existance of sanatan views is beyond me. Ever been to a college? Notice how people of all different beliefs can come together and have interesting and challenging discussions without wanting to shut down the person who's views the majority doesn't share? See, that's intellectual maturity. That's an open, free environment and a tolerant atmosphere to promote inquiry, discussion and learning.

Shutting down a topic or viewpoint because it is different and perceived as threatening is called REPRESSION. You are repressing points of view trying to make them go away. And they won't go away because people will never all think alike. Neither do even Sikhi Panth all agree.

We wish all religions best, respect them and consider religions as different paths in achieving union with God.

No, you really don't. I've read Dal Khalsa's diatribe against dera sampraday. I've read the abusively anti-Hindu posts here. You like to imagine that you are well-wishing religion like Hindu, but you own condemnation of caste system, even as Sikh's today are mired down with same exact troubles caste discrimination. Clean your own house before accusing the dirt in someone elses.

And see, I know Sikhs are guilty of this. But I don't blame High and noble spirituality of Guru Sahibaan for it, the way you blame Hindu religion for problems of corrupted people. So you have really low opinion of Hindu religion and are just pretending to yourself about believing it is authentic path to the God.

"We wish..." Nice how you think you can speak for all of Sikhi Panth. Next time skip the royal "we" and just speak in singular as your own opinion.

Waheguru as sargun means he is also in his creation.That creation includes you, me, all humanity and Durga also.

In Hinduism avtar means God descends to earth and lives there.That iswhy these deities are called demigods.Sikhism does not endorse that.

1. So are you saying that any human being, yourself for example is just the same as Chandi?

You slay demons and uphold Dharma and wield the Sudarshana Chakra of the All-Pervading Light? Really? On weekends maybe.

2. Hindu Mat doesn't endorse demi-gods either. But you will endlessly insist it does because you need to set up a straw man you can artificially knock down.

And how do you explain Gurbani that calls Guru Sahibaan as avatars? Do you bow your hairs to this bani and call as Guru? Yet you disbelieve what it says?

ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾਂ ਸੁਝੀਓਸੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

chaarae kunddaan sujheeous man mehi sabadh paravaan ||

You understand the four corners of the universe; in your mind, the Word of the Shabad is approved and supreme.

ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥

aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||

You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace.

ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥

aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||

You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 968

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥

har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||

You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak;

You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥

dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak,

Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent,

according the Command of the Primal Lord God.

~SGGS Ji ang 1390

ਕਹੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਕਲ ਸਹਾਰ ਸਪਤ ਦੀਪ ਮਝਾਰ ਲਹਣਾ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੨॥

kahu keerath kal sehaar sapath dheep majhaar lehanaa jagathr gur paras muraar ||2||

O Kal Sahaar, chant the Praises of Lehnaa throughout the seven continents;

He met with the Lord, and became Guru of the World.

ਤੈ ਤਉ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਿਓ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਬਿਮਲ ਜਾਸੁ ਬਿਥਾਰੁ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸੁਜਨ ਜੀਆ ਕੋ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥

thai tho dhrirriou naam apaar bimal jaas bithhaar saadhhik sidhh sujan jeeaa ko adhhaar ||

You hold tight to the Naam, the Name of the Infinite Lord; Your expanse is immaculate.

You are the Support of the Siddhas and seekers, and the good and humble beings.

ਤੂ ਤਾ ਜਨਿਕ ਰਾਜਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਹਹਿ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਜਲ ਪਦਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥

thoo thaa janik raajaa aouthaar sabadh sansaar saar rehehi jagathr jal padham beechaar ||

You are the incarnation of King Janak; the contemplation of Your Shabad is sublime

throughout the universe. You abide in the world like the lotus on the water.

~SGGS Ji ang 1391

3. Sikhs are facing two enemies.One enemy is within that says Dasam granth sahib is not written by Guru sahib. Then there is external enemy that says that SGGS ji and Dasam Granth contain verses that are written in praise of deities. Both are dead wrong.

>>I don't at all agree theinterpretations of the rebuttals. You won't convince me and I won'tconvince you. We don't have to share the same belief to discusssimilarities, differences or controversies.<<Well, thanks for revealing your complete lack of desire to understandGurmat for what it is and your complete devotion to your own manmat.

What unbelievable arrogance to actually think that your opinion equals Gurmat and that you can judge and condemn other people in hysterically abusive ways and convince them of anything.

Because you attempt to promote your opinion as an "alternative interpretation" of Sikhi instead of the diseased thoughts of a damaged mind that refuses to acknowledge anything else but its own manmat.

All you know is put downs and insults. I'm completely convinced you have no concept of God or spiritual things.

Is that an "alternative interpretation" of singh2's post above. He said that he knew of no Singhs who worship devi. Is alleging that I said you literally have faeces in your mouth your "alternative interpretation" of me telling you that you suffer frm verbal diarrhoea? Seriously, if you cannot even read a post on a forum without understanding it, what hope do you have of understanding Gurbani?

Calling people who post in discussion as verbal diarrhea is real mature. What a Pure-hearted Khalsa Sikh!

Oh, and there's no need to tell us that our tuks fail to convince you, because you have already said above that you will no be convinced.

There is reason to suspect the translation may not be reflecting the best accuracy because there is a HUGE history of anti-sanatan Singh Sabhia alteration. But I'm willing to investigate that. And no, I won't be convinced by you at all. You are completely discredited in my eyes as being any kind of spiritual person with anything to teach due to your own out of control hostility and anti-Hindu abusiveness.

No, paranoid would be someone screaming about devi in every thread and how every Sikh here is trying to "erase" devi (I guess you must be really important and special to have to single handedly protect the goddess, right?),

Panth Prakash was proven on this forum of editing out Devi references. That isn't paranoia. But your rabid denials are.

talking about Singh Sabha conspiracies and suspect translations that you have not even read when someone shows you tuks that contradict your beliefs, and trying to maintain a facade of righteous indignation when your utter stupidity is called out for what it is.

You don't have any right to be hatefully abusive to anyone. Abusing and bullying a viewpoint on a public forum is stupid veer ji.

And please, you have already insuted Guru Ji by breaking your rehat and drinking the foot juice of some moorakh who believes she a right to twist Sikhi to prmote her dehdari devi cult, so don't start whining about me calling a spade a spade and your gooroo a cult leader.

I don't have a cult. Entire sanatana Dharma isn't a "cult." And you aren't in place of Guru Ji to judge and condemn me like you are. You aren't even respectable person. And I have never baited, berated or insulted Guru Sahibaan why in the hell do you assume the right to attack and insult a Guru of Hindu religion as it suits your abusive mentality?

Who gave you the right?

And no, I'm not part of some conspiracy to get you banned. In fact, watching you try to "explain" a Gurbani tuk so it fits into your own unique and curious belief system in a 3000 word essay when it is abundantly clear to everyone else what the tuk means.

I do however believe that you should be restricted and your posts moderated so that anything you write that has nothing to do with the topic is deleted. This is because you have destroyed every thread you have entered after you have steered it in the direction of your devi cult teachings.

You should have been banned a long time ago for outrageous insults, flaming and non-stop derailing personal attacks suitable to a grade school then an adult discussion forum. You disgrace Sikhi. You are the one destroying threads and creating an abusively hostile environment here.

I dont see the point of worshiping a devi, when you can worship akaal purakh.

This is okay to believe. But how can you worship that which is agochar? Ungraspable, unfathomable?

By what NAAM do you call the One who has no form to describe? There is no NAAM you can jap which speaks a quality of that which has no qualities.

There is no mental picture your mind could fathom or imagine which could come even close to the infinity. It is of another dimensionality. Like we are 2 dimensional drawings boasting how we worship only the real reality which is greater than million dimensions. We only IMAGINE what the God is like, and we would finish ourselves even trying to describe small iota of Him.

Now, this doesn't mean that a Sikh worships Devi. But in sanatan Granths there are descriptions of Sikhs worshipping Devi. So not entirely unheard of. But the point I've been trying to make, even simple Hindu people when they pray to murthis and have istha devata are still believing in the same Divine Reality our language imprecisely calls "God." Everyone prays according to their own best understanding. You should never pray in a way that doesn't feel right to you. If you want to describe the God as AKAAL, this is purataan Gurmat Gursikhi. Only know that calling does ot really describe the unfathomable and that because of duality consciousness and exisiting in material pakrti, that everyone here is idol worshipping in some way, from faulty perception, limited concepts, human finite incapacity.

So really condemnation and judgmentalism are wrong approach.

Follow your best Gurmat Gursikhi as you believe, just don't become someone who condemns others beliefs and practices. if you really think they are wrong and want to try to help them understand better, do it with love, like a friend.

The love you give is the love you receive. We are all in the same boat really. All our understanding of God, Reality, each other is distorted and limited. Saints, as you notice love the whole world.

The fool considers Him a stone, but the great fool does not know any secret;

Do you really believe that all Hindu's falsely worship only fake rocks and not real God? If so, then how are you different from intolerant Wahabist people who accuse Hindu's of demon worship against their (in hip pocket) One True God Allah?

Finally: I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.

Do you really believe same Guru Sahib who wrote in same Granth that His own Father Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji died to protect the tilak and janeo from oppression and turned around to break their idols like Aurangzeb himself? Or it meant something different, that they were betrayers and faithless to real God and going through motions of only hypocritical worship and that as Guru he was stopping their violent betrayal as well as their fake spirituality? But how does this apply to some kind of oppression against Hindu religious practices?

Are you thinking Khalsa is now idol breaker like fundamentalist Islamics? And what will you throw acid in peoples faces too if they violate your idea of sharia?

ਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁਤ ਵਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਭਏ ॥੧੨॥

darookrisan tin ke sut vae|| Tin te Teg Bahaadar bhae||12||

Har Krishan (the next Guru) was his son; after him, Tegh Bahadur became the Guru.12.

ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥

Tilak janjhoo raakhaa Prabh taa kaa|| Koono bado kaloo maih saakaa||

He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread which marked a great event in the Iron age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥

Saadhan het(i) itoo jin(i) daroo|| Soos(u) dooaa par soo na ucdaroo||13||

For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sign.13.

ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥

Dharam het(i) saakaa jin kooaa|| Soos(u) dooaa par sirar(u) na dooaa||

For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 131

Harjas, you write that translations may have been tampered with. In that case why not read the original text, which is fairly easy to understand:

The original text is in Sanskrit and Braj Bhasha. Do you read fluently Sanskrit and Braj Bhasha? The Punjabi translation is not original, the 32 original hand written birs are no longer extant, only 3 are left. And there are known discrepancies between the SGPC authorized version and the one put out by Gobind Sadhan. I asked if some Gurmukhi fluent Singh Scholars (From whatever sampraday, even firmly believing Singh Sabha) to kindly post comparisons between SGPC version and Govind Sadhan version to see where the controversial differences appear. Is that wrong to ask? It doesn't mean anybody will do it. And it of course, stil does not give us access to the original language, but it is still a little study which would be interesting for the forum.

I am interested to have proven that differences are not significantly involving anti-sanatan viewpoint of Singh Sabha. If I can see that then I will be somewhat more inclined to look at those tuuks with less suspicion.

Which Nirmala Sikh Sants have you spoken to?

Mahant Ram Singh Ji.

Do you actually read preceding posts that refute your theories and choose to ignore them , or are you so confused that you fail to see them in the first place?

I don't at all agree the interpretations of the rebuttals. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. We don't have to share the same belief to discuss similarities, differences or controversies.

Tell me, why does my opinion even matter to you? You don't like my views fine! Ignore my posts, or write a rebuttal of my points. Why bring me personally into it? You want to add to all the slanders and demeaning? Talk to the articles I wrote. It isn't about me personally or your judgment and condemnation of my "confusion."

There are like a billion billion Hindu's who you won't convince. So why bother? We can discuss. If someone is citing bani that contradicts I have to go back and look at that. But when some bloke says he was born in Punjab and he never heard of Devi, blah blah, that's the most unpersuasive pind ignorance having nothing to do with all the sanatan murals whitewashed all over Punjab during Singh Sabha ascendancy. Arguments like that and things which attack me as a brain damaged mentally ill person and mock charan pahul are simply abusive and no, do not persuade me at all.

In fact, it really cheapens your forum that you people can't even have discussions which do not degenerate into blame and shame sessions when confronted by a different belief. It should be a very high quality intellectual forum which analyzes all points of view. Seriously going on the invalidation attack mode every time you see something you don't agree with is paranoid.

You don't HAVE to attack a belief you can easily counter with your different interpretation. But seriously accept that there is more than one interpretation historically and you don't have Sikh-ISM in your hip pocket to disqualify other people personally. You don't have God in your hip pocket to put down views and religious beliefs of others. Seriously Sikhi belongs to the world, and that includes Hindus who will interpret as Hindus. Live with it and stop acting like you own God.

Express your Sikhi view, you can do it respectfully and effectively without resorting to personal qualities the other person. No one's stopping your right to discuss. And I'm not personally attacking anyone's qualities to express my view or debate evidence presented.

Are you actually thick or has your gooroo's foot juice destropyed too many of your brain cells? That is part of Dasmesh Pita's translation of Markandeya Purana. It's ever so slightly idiotic to claim that this then proves Durga is what she is claimed to be in Shakta doctrine. Yes, Durga is a manifestation of Kal, as is Rama who destroyed Ravana and Kumbhakaran, and so on -

but THEY ARE NOT KAL.

1. Yes, Durga is a manifestation of KAL, as is Rama...

but they are NOT KAL. Hmmm.

So, KAL is working through them to achieve righteous actions which the bani says are praiseworthy.... but they are somehow different and acting in unrelated way? OR the all-pervading nature of the Supreme is present there but we see the True Reality as Nirgun and sargun as only temporary forms? Because if there is only ONE without a second, then sargun doesn't compete with nirgun or take anything away. Yet, we would be foolish to cling to the passing away forms and not worship the Divine One Jyot behind them.

Remember Achintya Bheda Abheda? Doctrine of difference in Oneness? Sargun IS in fact Nirguna. Sorry Jio. But you don't have to accept my belief. You can disagree without trashing me personally or disrespecting these beliefs. I think you just like to be an outrageous person. But fact is you show that you have no respect or humility for spiritual things if they are different from what you believe in. If I trashed Guru Sahibaan the way you trash my Guru and Hindu Mat you would want to murder me. Think about how you want other people to treat what is precious to you before treating them like a dog. You have no respectful love for spiritual things, and that is definitely NOT the message of Gurbani. Gurbani is showing so much love to everybody's spirituality, even calling religion of invaders as true and pointing them to the highest good of their religion. You can't even do the same?

2. A Guru's feet are despicable now?

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਸਰੇਵਣੇ ਤੀਰਥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ॥

gur kae charan saraevanae theerathh har kaa naao ||

Worship the Feet of the Guru. Let the Name of the Lord be your sacred shrine of pilgrimage.

~SGGS Ji ang 52

ਤਿਸੁ ਚਰਣ ਪਖਾਲੀ ਜੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਚਾਲੈ ॥

this charan pakhaalee jo thaerai maarag chaalai ||

I wash the feet of those who walk upon Your Path.

~SGGS Ji ang 102

ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥੨॥

santh janaa kee charanee laag ||2||

and hold tight to the Feet of the Saints.

~SGGS Ji ang 177

ਧਨਿ ਮਸਤਕ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਹੀ ਪਰਸ ॥

dhhan masathak charan kamal hee paras ||

Blessed is the forehead which touches His Lotus Feet.

~SGGS Ji ang 201

LOL. You mean every single thread you have posted on that has become a thread about your devi?

No. But this one clearly is. A Singh even posted Her picture!

BECAUSE THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT YOU NOR YOUR IDOL WORSHIPPING STUPIDITY, YOU IGNORANT AND OBNOXIOUS FOOL! How many fricken times do people have to say it before it penetrates that dense skull of yours? If you want to make a thread about how great devi is and howgreat your gooroo's feet taste, then go right ahead. But STOP entering every thread with the same propaganda you have been spewing since you got here.

You call yourself a Singh? You are judgmental, abusive, obnoxious, disrespectful, irreverent punk. You are trashing own Sikhi heritage trying desperately to trash me. Don't you ever read Gurbani? You should have respect for ancient tradition of charan pahul, because Sikhs were drinking same kind of foot wash of Guru Sahibaan and did not despise and treat in such irreverent ways. You are really an atheist right? You cannot believe in God when you talk down the way you down about other people's religion.

I don't have any murthis in my house veer ji. Why do you falsely accuse so much? You think you know everything about me to trash and slander freely? Who gave you the right to judge and condemn and abuse in public? Are you so holy? I am your punching bag to kick around and spew venom of hate on? What kind of man are you who has such little self-control? Not a Khalsa Singh, that's for sure. A Khalsa Singh has respect for Gurbani and doesn't belittle and mock holy tradition of charan pahul.

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਵਾ ॥੧॥

gur kae charan dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1||

I wash the Guru's Feet, and drink in this water.

~SGGS Ji ang 239

ਚਰਨ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਉ ॥

charan saadhh kae dhhoe dhhoe peeo ||

Wash the feet of the Holy, and drink in this water.

~SGGS Ji ang 283

ਮਨੁ ਬਿਗਸੈ ਸਾਧ ਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ॥

man bigasai saadhh charan dhhoe ||

My mind blossoms forth in ecstasy, washing the feet of the Holy.

~SGGS Ji ang 290

ਕਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਨ ਪਖਾਰੈ ਸੰਤ ਧੂਰਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਾਵੈ ॥

kar sang saadhhoo charan pakhaarai santh dhhoor than laavai ||

He joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and washes their feet;

he applies the dust of the Saints to his body.

~SGGS Ji ang 381

Wiping one's ass with putay may have existed in the puratan Sikh Panth, but I don't think it is worth discussing since it has nothing to do with Sikhi.

You have serious problems. I feel sorry for you. people like you are the reason for so much hatred against people with other beliefs.

I'm sorry, but it's clear that you are simply here to promote Devi worship, and to justify your own bemukh actions to us and I believe to yourself also, despite your occasional protestations to the contrary. Why else would you say "I'm not suggesting Sikhs should worship Devatay" and then say "oh, but puratan Sikhs worshipped Devi so it's OK".

I suggest that you see a shrink instead of using this forum to work through your religious confusion.

I don't "promote" anything. I am pointing out some obvious historical facts about traditional Sikhi which existed. Some reason you think that gives you a license to be rude and abusive to my personal character and beliefs. You are the one who is sick. Just look at the way you talk to people, like they are garbage in your eyes. Just like before you went on about how my mouth was full of feces. I think YOU are the one deliberately provoking and then having childish tantrums any comments that contradict your personal views and in rage derailing them with personal attacks and abusive talk to get threads stopped and locked.

That's how cowardly you are about discussing a subject like intelligent man instead of spoiled egotistical child who heaps abuse instead of discusses. Mock me all you want but don't mock God, don't mock spiritual practices, and don't demean and trash other religions.

Grow up, for real. You need some help.

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਚਰਨ ਪਰ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਕਉ ਧਾਵਹਿ ॥

mithhiaa charan par bikaar ko dhhaavehi ||

False are the feet which run to do evil to others.

~SGGS Ji ang 269

Trash, abuse, get emo and hysterical, rant and rage and lock all the threads you want to.

You cannot change the sanatan history or erase Devi from Sikhi Panth. Even if you succeed in banning me with all your provocations and allegations about "ruining," you cannot erase Devi. For one thing, your Divine Mother will be there when you die, loving you.

And congratulations on ruining another thread with your incessantchatter about Devi this and Devi that in a thread that had nothing todo with your Devi worshipping crap.

You are a liar as can be proven by reading all the threads about Devi. Why am I "ruining" a thread simply to discuss? What are you so afraid of? Why don't you actually look at the points and then honestly and intelligently discuss them instead of fighting with broad over-general invalidations?

Are you denying that Devi worship ever existed in the purataan Sikh Panth?

Funny how every thread you reply to magically becomes a conversation about Devi worship, what what?

GuptSingh1699 writes: #30

Durga is Durga not Akaal Purakh.

This is whom you worship by reading Vaar Durga Ki aka Chandi Di Vaar

http://www.vanadurga...rga_9_small.jpg

Yes funny how that happens. /points up

Nope, that's not your sole issue. You said that Kal in Gurbani refersto Durga because the names of Madhu Kaitabh, Sumbh Nisumbh werementioned. You were shown that Kal is also declared to be the destroyerof other entities whom Durga did not destroy (according to Hindumythology) and hence your logic is flawed.

And I quoted:

ਨਮੋ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੀ ਹਰੀ ਸੀ ਮੁਕੰਦੀ ॥੨੭॥੨੪੬॥ नमो पारब्रहमी हरी सी मुकंदी ॥२७॥२४६॥

Thou art the maya of Unmanifested Brahman and the Shakti of Shiva! I salute Thee.27.246.

ਜਯੰਤੀ ਨਮੋ ਮੰਗਲਾ ਕਾਲਕਾਯੰ ॥ जयंती नमो मंगला कालकायं ॥

Thou art the bestower of cheerfulness to all, the conqueror of all and the manifestation of Kal (death).

ਕਪਾਲੀ ਨਮੋ ਭਦ੍ਰਕਾਲੀ ਸਿਵਾਯੰ ॥ कपाली नमो भद्रकाली सिवायं ॥

O Kapali! (the goddess carrying begging bowl), Shiva-Shakti! (the power of Shiva) and Bhadrakali!

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 293

And also:

Hence Sadhakas who desire Liberation should always think of the Svarupatattva of Brahmavidya Kalika. Of this Svarupa the Devi saysin Mahabhagavata : ' Those who long for Liberation should, in order togain freedom from the bonds of the body, meditate on that aspect(Rupa) of Mine which is the supreme Light (Jyotih), Sukshma,andNishkala, Nirguna, the all-pervading unbeginning, non-dual soleCausewhich is Sachchida-nanda Itself. This is the Svarupa of the Devi whichis beyond all mind and speech.'The Markandeya Purana says, ' TheMahamaya is Nishkala, Nirguna,endless, undecaying, unthinkable,formless and both eternal (Nitya.) and transient (Anitya)', that is,Mahainaya Kalika is free from Kala (Maya) and free from Gunas, withoutend, imperishable, eternal, and not transient as is the world (Jagat),formless, and hence, as such, is notthe object of meditation. In the Kurma Purana, Vishnu in the form of a Tortoise says that the Supreme Devi is Nirguna, pure, white, stainless,free from all duality and realizable by the Atma only. This state of Hers is attainable only by Jnana. In the Kamada Tantra, Shiva says 'That eternal Kali who is supreme Brahman is one without a second either male or female. She has neither form, Adhara, or Upadhi. She is sinless and imperishable Sach chida-nanda, the Great Brahman.'She who is eternal Brahman has neither appearance (Avirbhava) nordisappearance(Tirobhava), and being all-pervading, She cannot be said,like other Devas and Devis, to reside in any particular Loka. Om. Obeisance To The Supreme Devata. Part 6

Kalika is the Supreme Light. Nirguna. Endless. Undecaying. Formless and Eternal and also Transient, hence Nirgun-Sargun.

Kalika is Mother of the Universe. Free from Duality. The Supreme Brahman who is One without a second. Like no other Devas or Devis. The All-Pervading. The non-dual cause of SAT*CHIT*ANAND.

Now, that is a description of AKAAL Purakh Jio. Hence KAL is the Mayayog of Har Krishan. The Sudarshana Chakra of Maha Vishnu. She is the FORCE behind all the devatay and avtaray per the Markadheya Purana, same exact Purana on which Shri Dasam Granth is based. So you think it is accident that same exact description of KAL is given?

Sikhi does not envision Akaal Purakh as being masculine, neither doesDasam Granth describe Mahakaal as feminine. However you or other peopleinterpret those names is neither here nor there. And neither is whatHindu granths say about Mahakaal and the rest of their divinities sinceGurbani makes it very clear that the Devatay are not what they say theyare.

The underlying reality of all things is Akaal Purakh, but that does notmean that Devi or Shiva or I am Akaal Purakh This is something you seemunwilling to comprehend.

And yet, Shaheediyaan writes just below you that Sikhi has a purataan heritage of viewing the Akal Purakh as Chandi in sarguna. And also contradicts to establish what I said, as per reference to Bhai Avatar Singh Vahiria's comment that vocabulary of AKAAL Purakh is masculine in Guru Granth Sahib. So.... open your mind just a little. I'm not making things up. It's not the mainstream view, but it is a part of purataan Sikhi history. Can't you at least acknowledge that a view you don't agree with even exists? And that isn't my sole issue, it's the very root source of the conflict over Shri Dasam Granth bani from Singh Sabha persepctive since they denounce all sanatan imagery and reject totally these purataan sources as braminvaadi corruptions. So it really IS about Devi after all.

Khalsa Dharam Shaastar page 16-18

ਸਿਖ ਮਤ ਵਿਚ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਥਵਾਗੁਰਾਂ ਸੰਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ । ਤਥਾ ਹੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਧੇਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਦਿਕਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਹੈ ।

In Sikhism, to view the [sargun] form of Akal Purkh you can looktowards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well as Saints. Like this to the[sargun] form of Bhagvati [Devi/Chandi] for one to view weapons[shastar and astar].

ਭਗਵਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਪੁਲਿੰਗ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਕਰਕੇ ਮਹਿਮਾਂ ਸਭੋਾ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਆਦਿਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਤਥਾ ਦਸਮੇ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਲਖਮੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀਮਾਤਾ ਦੀ ਦਸਮੇ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤਥਾ ਲੋਹ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਨਾਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਵਿਚ ਹੈ ।

The vocabulary of praise of Bhagvat Akal Purkh in [Adi] Guru GranthSahib is masculine, it is also present in the 10th King's scripture[Dasam Granth]. Furthermore the praise of Lakhmi, Bhagvati, Shakti,Mata [all forms of Adi Shakti] are present in the 10th King's scripture[Dasam Granth] as well as Loh Prakash Granth [sri Sarbloh Granth Ji].

The Gurus were pooran avatar of Akaal Purakh, yet they forbade theirSikhs rom worshipping them. Compare this with the egotistical speech ofKrishna who claimed in the Bhagavad Gita that he was the SupremeHimself, and you may yet grasp why we do not worship any devatay oravatars and why Gurbani speaks of the ego of these avatars.

You're saying the Bhagavad-Gita is nothing but egotism of Bhagavan Krishna? Maybe you need to read Gurbani. This is what Gurbani says about Krishna. Seems to agree with Bhagavad-Gita. You have the ego to insult the sarguna of the Divine Parabrahm. Who do you think you are exactly? Trampling on their heads? If Guruji is speaking in context of pakrti and the temporal passing of Ages don't think it gives you any pedastal to look down at devatay. Dhaev still means Shining Lights of the Divine manifested here in sansaar. Avtar still means the Divine manifested. All the Puranas say Krishan is filled with all opulences and complete Purna avatar. For which reason His NAAMS, Gobinday, Mukunday, etc are what we JAP for praise of the Divine Parabrahm in Gurbani kirtan. Have respect and don't be arrogant. Gurbani also says Guru Nanak Dev Ji Jyot is of the SAME LINEAGE as Das Avataray and therefore is JYOT of HAR KRISHAN BHAGAVAN! We don't worship the rotting bodies of sarguna! We worship the eternal JYOT which is ONE UNITY DIVINE! So yes, we do bow hairs and ego to Guru Granth Sahib and worship the Guru God which is merged UNITY not a separation. You should have studied achint bheda abheda better instead of dismissing it, as it explains the difference and unity coexisting.

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥

achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||

The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥

madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||

He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥

rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||

The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute.

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥

mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||

The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥

jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||

The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥

jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||

The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us.

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||

The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥

dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||

The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥

baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||

O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥

sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||

You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥

banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||

Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥

sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||

You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥

bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||

You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥

gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||

The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥

baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||

O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||

Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥

dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||

Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥

kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||

Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||

The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥

akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||

His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥

abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||

O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥

sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||

The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥

mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||

By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥

kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||

The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||

He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥

dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||

He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥

saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||

He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥

banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||

He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥

sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||

His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

>>No problem Ji. I'm sorry tohear you are having some issue of urgency. I hope all is well with youand your family. I bow out from this thread.<<

Why do not you abide by your committment and stop hijacking the thread again and again. God fearing persons honour their word.

It obviously became another discussion, and not about this veers personal questions.

Yep, that includes Devi who was created from the combined power of the Devatay. When those same Devatay expire, so will Durga.

And quit whining about translations being suspect merely because theydo not agree with your theories. Even the Gobind Sadan version, whosepothia you have been praising despite your inability to read them, hasthe same translation for these and the other tuks you were questioningin the other thread.

And for God's sake, stop littering these threads with irrelevant crapin your pitiful attempts to elevate your chosen deity to some sort ofequivalent to Akal Purakh.

Veer Ji. I respect that we have a difference of opinion, and you are not wrong. But if you would open your mind just a little, and at least look at what I'm presenting from the Hindu perspective, you will see that Hindu scriptures do in fact interpret MahaKAAL as AKAAL Purakh. Now, in my mind it really comes down to semantics, most people envision AKAAL Purakh as male, and MahaKAAL as feminine, and in fact there are a unity of both male and female and beyond male and female.

My sole issue is the way Sikhi modernly eliminates and invalidates Devi, rather than incorporating that aspect of Devi which is actually the female aspect of the same Divine Beloved. Other than that, yes I agree all devatay and avtaray are part of the finite created order and passing away. The brains and eyes which perceive experiences of them will also pass away. Yet, try to look for a moment at the everlasting underlying reality which underlies it all.

It is the same One God in Islam as in Christianity as in Judaism as in Hinduism. I always feel like I'm trying to defend these are not fake or mythological beings who are competing with the One True God. Can't you at least accept that much that sarguna, as even Guru Sahibaan own bodies crumbled into dust, sarguna IS passing away, but the ONE REALITY EKA BRAHM which underlies it all is still the same One God, and have at least a little understanding for how Hindu people who did become Sikhs have left an imprint of sanatan tradition which Guruji did not trash and invalidate, but actually used to explain higher true reality.

Sikhi does have a different view then majority of Hindu sampraday, but in some teachings there is a harmony. Why can't we at least acknowledge and share the commonalities? Worship of demi-gods is wrong, it's limited. But the way in which the Ultimate is described is still limited to symbolism of sarguna, because human minds can't conceive anything beyond it. Even imagining AKAAL, people are still stuck in the limits of imagination. These deepest spiritual mysteries really are unexplainable.

And I don't believe you on the Govind Sadhan translations not being different as there are posted controversies already. But I was hoping some Singhs who like to translate for themselves controversial granths, who are far more fluent than I ever will be, might at least be interested to look at the two published Dasam Granths and post here their findings instead of just making empty, bold claims.

'Taihee Durga Saajkay Daita Da Nass Karraiya.

What you don't understand is that in Hindu Mat it is also understood that the sargun manifestation is a part of creation but also inextricably linked to the nirgun which is completely beyond the physical creation. But the creation can't perceive the nirguna, so it requires a Light which shines in darkness, and that is the forms of sarguna through which the Eka Brahman is pervading and more than simply pervading, but positively manifesting to uphold Dharma and act as Guru guide through avtaray and lead mankind to moksha. In Hindu Mat the Sargun is always subordinate to the Nirgun, because it is part of pakrti, the material manifestation of the thrai gun and hence finite. But Sarguna is nonetheless a part of the Nirguna. God is not nirguna only.

Devas, in Hinduism, are celestial beings that control forces of nature such as fire, air, wind, etc. They are not to be confused with the One and the Supreme God or His personal form, Saguna Brahman which can be visualized as Viṣṇu or Śiva. God (see Ishvara) or Brahman (the Supreme Spirit) is the ultimate controller. A famous verse from the Katha Upanishad states: “From fear (here, power) of Him the wind blows; from fear of Him the sun rises; from fear of Him Agni and Indra and Death, the fifth, run." In actuality, Brahman is the only Ultimate Reality, and all Devas are simply mundane manifestations of Him.

The Vaishnavites (who often translate deva as "demigod") cite various verses that speak of the devas' subordinate status. For

example, the Rig Veda (1.22.20) states,oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ:"All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feetof Lord Vishnu." Similarly, in the Vishnu Sahasranama the concluding verses state: "The Rishis (great sages), the ancestors, the devas, the great elements, in fact all things moving and unmoving constituting this universe, have originated from Narayana," (i.e., Vishnu). Thus the Devas are stated to be subordinate to Vishnu, or God.

In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna himself states that worshipers of deities other than the Supreme Lord, Vishnu, areincorrect (Gita 9.23) as such worship leads only to temporalbenefits, rather than to the Lord Himself (Gita 7.23). Deva

ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਹਰੀਆ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਧਰੀਆ ਅਨਿਕ ਕੋਠਰੀਆ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿਨ ਕਰੀਆ ॥

niragun hareeaa saragun dhhareeaa anik kothareeaa bhinn bhinn bhinn bhin kareeaa ||

The Lord is absolute and unmanifest; He hasassumed the most sublime manifestation.

He has fashioned countless bodychambers of many, varied, different, myriad forms.

~SGGS Ji ang 746

ਅਨਿਕ ਰੰਗ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਇਕ ਰੰਗਾ ॥

anik rang niragun eik rangaa ||

He manifests many forms, while still unmanifest and absolute, and yet He has One Form.

ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥੨॥

aapae jal aap hee tharangaa ||2||

He Himself is the water, and He Himself is the waves.

ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੇਵਾ ॥

aap hee mandhar aapehi saevaa ||

He Himself is the temple, and He Himself is selfless service.

ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪੂਜਾਰੀ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੩॥

aap hee poojaaree aap hee dhaevaa ||3||

He Himself is the worshipper, and He Himself is the idol. <----Idol? It says deva! He is the Deva.

ਆਪਹਿ ਜੋਗ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥

aapehi jog aap hee jugathaa ||

He Himself is the Yoga; He Himself is the Way. <---Way? It says technique. Yogic technique.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਮੁਕਤਾ ॥੪॥੧॥੬॥

naanak kae prabh sadh hee mukathaa ||4||1||6||

Nanak's God is forever liberated.

~SGGS Ji ang 803

Pichchhila Tantra also says 'of all the Mantras of the Devas that ofKalika is the best. Even the vilest can become Jivanmukta simplythrough this Mantra.' In Yogini Tantra, Shiva says 'This Vidya Kalikais Maha-Maha-Maha-Vidya, through whom even the worst may attainNirvana. Even Brahma, Vishnu, and Maheshvara are Her worshippers. Shewho is Kail the supreme Vidya, is Tara also. The notion of a differencebetween them has given rise to various Mantras.' Again the KamakhyaTantra says Oh Parameshvari, seven lakhs of Mahavidyas remain hidden.Of them all Shodashi is said to be the most sublime. But Oh Devi, the Mother of the world, Kalika is the mother even of Her.' Niruttara Tantra says ' Without knowledge of Shakti, Oh Devi, there is no Nirvana. That Shakti is Dakshina Kali who is the own form of all Vidyas (Sarvvavidyarupini).' Obeisance To The Supreme Devata

When Shri Dasam Granth says the devas are subordinate to KAL it is not anything different from what is written in the Tantras which are the source for the stories in Shri Dasam Granth bani.

All these are not the opinions of Guru Gobind Singh. They are theopinions of the writers of the original which Guru Gobind Singhfaithfully translated. To dissociate himself and his ideal from it,Guru Gobind Singh either added a short introduction or an epilogue toeach of these versions of Chandi. Guru Gobind Singh's opinions, givinghis own faith were:

(a) In the First Chandi Charitar he said:

deh siva bar mohe ehai, shubh carman te kabhu na taro, na daro ar sojab jae laro, niscai kar aprni jit karo, ar sikh hau apne hi man kau ehlalac hau gun tau ucro, jab av kd audh nidan banai at hi ran mai tabjujh maro

Give me this power, O Almighty: From righteous deeds I may neverrefrain, Fearlessly may I fight all the battles of life, Fullconfidence may I ever have In asserting my moral victories, May mysupreme ambition and learning be To sing of Thy glory and victory. Whenthis mortal life comes to a close May I die with the joy and courage ofa martyr.

You're kidding me. Guru Gobind Singh didn't write those lines, some other writers did? And then you say to dissociate Himself from Durga he wrote Deh Shiva bar mohe ehe? Dear goodness, oh my!

deh siva bar mohe ehai

This is in praise of Shiva the feminine variant, Shivani as opposed to Shiv. It is the exact same as Durga!

Thus respecting Khosa ji's scholarly background I am again just trying to understand how word Siva in Deh Siva Bar Mohe ihe refers to God Akal Purkh and not to goddess wife of Shivji (Chandi) or to mythological Shivji itself.

Khosa ji has referred to Mahan Kosh. Under meanings for Siva the very first entry refers to Chandi Chritar, the same composition where Deh Siva line appears. The meaning given is:

Siva. noun. Shiva, noun, Shiv's wife Durga, Parvati "Dhar Dhian Man Siva Ko Takki Puri Kailas" (Chandi 1).

The line "Dhar Dhian Man Siva Ko Taki Puri Kailas (Dwr iDAwn mn isvw ko qkI purI kYlws) refers to the story of Chandi Charitar when the Daityas defeated the mythological gods (Vishnu, Brahma, Indar, etc) after a fight lasting five thousand years the gods contemplated making a request for help to goddess Siva (who lived on mount Kailash as wife of god Shiv and hence called Siva or Shiva). Dr Serjinder Singh UK

(The second Chandi Charitar is a part of the Bachiter Natak Granth. TheBachiter Natak has a collective introduction in which Guru Gobind Singhrepeatedly wrote that he did not believe in the worship of gods andgoddesses. In verses 92 and 93 Guruji said, "It is through Thy power, OGod, that Durga destroyed the demons like Sumbh, Nisumbh, Dhumer andLochan, Chand and Mund. It is through Thy power, O God, that Ramadestroyed Ravana." And he concludes, Also “so sahib pae kaha parvahrahi eh das tiharo—With such a supreme One as my Lord, what care I, Thyservant, for anything or anyone?"

Guru Gobind Singh Ji doesn't believe in the worship of demi-gods. But He DOES believe in the worship of the Supreme who takes the form of devatay and avtaray and whose clear Power is acting through the sargun manifestations. So when Hindu's are worshipping or praising the sargun manifestations and japping the sargun NAAMs, how is it any different? You cannot WORSHIP that which you cannot perceive! You cannot PRAISE or JAP the NAAM of the unnameable. It is abundantly clear that Shri Dasam Granth has established the supremacy of Durga Kali Devi as the sargun manifestation of the Parabrahm, just as is taught in the Kali tantras.

ਯਾ ਕਲ ਮੈਂ ਸਭ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਭਾਰੀ ਭੁਜਾਨ ਕੋ ਭਾਰੀ ਭਰੋਸੋ ॥੯੨॥ या कल मैं सभ काल क्रिपान के भारी भुजान को भारी भरोसो ॥९२॥

In this Iron age, the supreme trust is only for KAL, Who is the Sword-incarnate and hath mighty arms.

ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭ ਸੇ ਕੋਟ ਨਿਸਾਚਰ ਜਾਹਿ ਛਿਨੇਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਹਨਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥ सु्मभ निसु्मभ से कोट निसाचर जाहि छिनेक बिखै हनि डारे ॥

He, who hath destroyed millions of demons like Sumbh and Nisumbh in and instant.

ਧੂਮਰਲੋਚਨ ਚੰਡ ਔ ਮੁੰਡ ਸੇ ਮਾਹਿਖ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥ धूमरलोचन चंड औ मुंड से माहिख से पल बीच निवारे ॥

Who hath annihilated in and instant the demons like Dhumarlochan, Chand, Mund and Mahishasura.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 109

Who is the KAL of the Kaliyuga? Why Kali!

Who is traditionally represented as a sword/Khanda? Why Kali!

Who destroyed the demons Sumbh and Nisumbh? Why Kali!

Who destroyed Mahishasura? Why the very same KAL.

Hence Sadhakas who desire Liberation should always think of the Svarupatattva of Brahmavidya Kalika. Of this Svarupa the Devisays in Mahabhagavata : ' Those who long for Liberation should, inorder to gain freedom from the bonds of the body, meditate on thataspect (Rupa) of Mine which is the supreme Light (Jyotih), Sukshma, andNishkala, Nirguna, the all-pervading unbeginning, non-dual sole Causewhich is Sachchida-nanda Itself. This is the Svarupa of the Devi whichis beyond all mind and speech.'The Markandeya Purana says, ' The Mahamaya is Nishkala, Nirguna,endless, undecaying, unthinkable, formless and both eternal (Nitya.)and transient (Anitya)', that is, Mahainaya Kalika is free from Kala(Maya) and free from Gunas, without end, imperishable, eternal, and nottransient as is the world (Jagat), formless, and hence, as such, is notthe object of meditation. In the Kurma Purana, Vishnu in the form of aTortoise says that the Supreme Devi is Nirguna, pure, white, stainless,free from all duality and realizable by the Atma only. This state ofHers is attainable only by Jnana. In the Kamada Tantra, Shiva says 'That eternal Kali who is supreme Brahman is one without a second eithermale or female. She has neither form, Adhara, or Upadhi. She is sinlessand imperishable Sachchida-nanda, the Great Brahman.' She who iseternal Brahman has neither appearance (Avirbhava) nor disappearance(Tirobhava), and being all-pervading, She cannot be said, like otherDevas and Devis, to reside in any particular Loka.

That is your KAL. And yes, it is the same as AKAAL Purakh. It is the same as Parabrahm. It is the same as Mahakali. It is the harmonious Totality of nirguna AND sarguna, but in it's purest aspect is nirgun.

That is who Devi is. It isn't that some male God aspect is acting through Devi as a demi-god. KAL isn't male or female, that is just a symbology for Pure Shakti. She is a unity with KAL Bairav, male and female destructive symbolism of the ultimate face of Sadashiva. But in aspect of KAL, Devi is actually expressing the fullness of the nirguna Itself, with all the power to destroy every demi-god and every temporary thing by power of time and death, war and steel. Because She is Parapakrti and Sarb Akal. She is the One Force Parashakti who is beyond Time and therefore able to liberate us from it.

And this is why Guru Sahib has subordinated all the other devatay and avtaray to KAL. But it cannot be said that KAL is not Kali, because KALI is the original representation, symbolism and manifestation of this Great Divine Power.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਕਾਲ ਜਬ ਕਰਾ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਰਾ ॥ प्रिथम काल जब करा पसारा ॥ ओअंकार ते स्रिसटि उपारा ॥

In the beginning, when KAL created the world, it was brought into being by Aumkara (the One Lord).

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 114

Ek Akshara. Aum/OMkara. The Shabad Brahman of the Vedas.

taihi durga saj kai daita da nas karaya, taitho hibal ram lai nal bana dehsir ghaia, taitho hi bal krishan lai kans kesipakad giraya, bade bade muni devte kai jug tini tan laia, kini tera nhtna paya.

It is Thou who created Durga and had the demons destroyed, From Theederived Rama all the strength to kill the ten-headed Ravana. From Theederived Krishna all his strength to catch Kans by the hair and dash himto the ground. Great seers and sages in all ages strained hard inpenance to know Thee. None, none has attained Thy end.

In these short prologues and epilogues Guru Gobind Singh made his ownopinion about Durga quite clear. He took these figures simply ashistorical persons of note and nothing else.

No that's a personal imposition into the meaning. It is saying that MahaKAAL is the Power behind all the sargun manifestations of avtaray and devatay. Nowhere is it saying Guruji thinks these are mere historical personages or mythological or anything like it. CLEARLY He is PRAISING the grand heroism of the One Divine who manifests in many forms throughout the Ages who is the True Reality underlying the manifest show. The ONE DIVINE IS THE POWER ACTING IN ALL DEVATAY AND AVTARAY!

Nothing is dismissed, negated, denied. Guruji having brahmgyaan is able to perceive the Underlying Unity and Truth of it, the Pre-eminence of the Nirguna acting as force behind all the manifested Pakriti forms.

<h2 id="toc3"></h2>

<h2 id="toc3">Nirguna Brahman</h2>The Absolute without qualities, is impersonal, without guna or attributes, Nirakara (formless), Nirvisesha (without special characteristics), immutable, eternal and Akarta(non-agent). It is above all needs and desires. It is always theWitnessing Subject. It can never become an object as It is beyond thereach of the senses. Brahman is non-dual, one without a second. It hasno other beside It. It is destitute of difference, either external orinternal. Brahman cannot be described, because description impliesdistinction. Brahman cannot be distinguished from any other than It. InBrahman, there is not the distinction of substance and attribute. Sat-Chit-Ananda (Truth-Consciousness-Bliss) constitute the very essence or Svarupa of Brahman, and not just Its attributes.

<h2 id="toc4">Saguna Brahman</h2>Qualified absolute, came from the Sanskrit saguṇa (सगुण) "withqualities" and brahman (ब्रह्मन्) "the Absolute." The personal aspectof the Ultimate Reality. Saguna Brahman is the creator, sustainer andcontroller of the universe. As the male aspect, Saguna Brahman iscalled by various Sanskrit names, such as Ishvara, Parameshvara, paramatma, Maheshvara, and Purusha. As the female aspect, Saguna Brahman is refered by various names, such as Divine Mother, Durgã and Kãlî.

Despite the abstract principle of Brahman, most Hindus worshipBrahman on a day-to-day basis in one of Brahman's less abstractpersonal forms, such as Vishnu, Shiva, or Shakti.Some Hindus worship these personal forms for a practical reason: it iseasier to cultivate devotion to a personal being than to an abstractprinciple. Vedas teaching: Brahman

Durga is Durga not Akaal Purakh.

Hmmm. Is it?

WHO IS KAL?

Chandi Di Vaar Stanza 55 says:

ਦੁਰਗਾ ਪਾਠ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਸਭੇ ਪਉੜੀਆਂ ॥

All the Pauris (stanzas) of this DURGA PAATH (Durga Prayer) have been composed;

ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥

And that person who sings it, will not take birth again.55.

Well, if KALI DURGA is actually representing the Unmanifested Brahman who conquers KAL/death, the She is representing AKAAL which is beyond death. So this KAL is in fact KALI and also the balance of male and female, KAL Bairavi, which are only a sargun symbolic manifestation on this earth of the Nirguna power of Parabrahm.

KAL killed the demon-kings Madhu, Kaitabh, Sumbah, Nisumbh and Sranavat Beej. Okay. So who is the KAL who killed these very specific demons? It's not a mystery.

From Sri Durga Chalisa Ambe Maa

SHUMBH NISHUMBH DANUJ TOUM MARERAKTA BEEJ SHANKHANA SANGHARE

You slayed the demons like Shumbh & Nishumb and massacred the thousand forms of the dreaded Demon Raktabeej

MAHISHASUR NRIP ATI ABHIMANI

JEHI AGH BHAR MAHI AKOULANI

When the earth was severely distressed bearing the load of the sins of the arrogant Mahishasur

ROOP KARAL KALIKA DHARA

SEN SAHITA TOUM TIN SAMHARA

You assumed the dreadful form of Goddess Kali and massacred him along with his army

PARI GARH SANTANA PAR JAB JAB

BHAYI SAHAY MATOU TOUM TAB TAB

Thus, whenever the noble saints were distressed, it is You O Mother, who came to their rescue.

Shumbh and Nishumbh were sons ofDanu. They wanted to avenge Mahishasura's death and sent many demonslike to bring Goddess Chandika after enslaving her... Nishumbh attacked the goddess with a huge army. Shumbhattacked from the other side. In the fierce battle, Goddess Chandikabroke Nishumbh's sword as well as his shield. Nishumbh then attackedGoddess Chandika with his weapon- Shakti. Goddess Chandika broke itwith her Chakra... KILLING OF NISHUMBH AND SHUMBH

KAL is no mystery even careful reading of Shri Dasam Granth bani will show exactly who it is!

Now, if we examine Shri Guru Granth Sahib in light of Suraj Prakash, something interesting is a recurrent theme. Read it closely and see if you can catch what the common theme between them is.

ਜਪੈ ਤੋਤਲਾ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਖੱਗ ਪਾਣੀ ॥ ਭ੍ਰਮਾ ਭੈਹਰੀ ਭੀਮ ਰੂਪਾ ਭਵਾਣੀ ॥ ਚਲਾ ਚਲ ਸਿੰਘੰ ਝਮਾਝੰਮ ਅੱਤ੍ਰੰ ॥ ਹਹਾ ਹੂਹਿ ਹਾਸੰ ਝਲਾ ਛੱਤ੍ਰੰ ॥੨੨॥ जपै तोतला सीतला ख्ग पाणी ॥ भ्रमा भैहरी भीम रूपा भवाणी ॥ चला चल सिंघं झमाझम अत्रं ॥ हहा हूहि हासं झला छ्त्रं ॥२२॥

Theworship of the goddesses like Shitala, Bhavani etc. was performed andthe gleaming arms, weapons, splendour, canopy, pleasantry etc.increased his glory.

ਅਟਾ ਅੱਟਿ ਹਾਸੰ ਛਟਾ ਛੁਟ ਕੇਸੰ ॥ ਅਸੰ ਓਪ ਪਾਨੰ ਨਮੋ ਕ੍ਰੂਰ ਭੇਸੰ ॥ ਸਿਰੰ ਮਾਲ ਸ੍ਵੱਛੰ ਲਸੈ ਦੰਤ ਪੰਤੰ ॥ ਭਜੈ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਗ੍ਵੜੰ ਪ੍ਰਫੁਲੰਤ ਸੰਤੰ ॥੨੩॥ अटा अटि हासं छटा छुट केसं ॥ असं ओप पानं नमो क्रूर भेसं ॥ सिरं माल स्व्छं लसै दंत पंतं ॥ भजै शत्र ग्वड़ं प्रफुलंत संतं ॥२३॥

Thebeauty of his enjoyment and his hair appeared extremely comely and hissword glistened like lightning in his hands; he had worn a pure rosaryon his head and the rows of his teeth looked magnificent; seeing him,the enemies fled away and the saints were pleased.

ਅਲਿੰਪਾਤ ਅਰਧੀ ਮਹਾ ਰੂਪ ਰਾਜੈ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਜੋਤ ਜ੍ਵਾਲੰ ਕਰਾਲੰ ਬਿਰਾਜੈ ॥ अलि्मपात अरधी महा रूप राजै ॥ महा जोत ज्वालं करालं बिराजै ॥

He appeared as a most beautiful king and there was a hideous halo of light around his face;

ਭ੍ਰਮੈ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਪੁਸ਼ਟੰ ਹਸੈ ਸੁਧ ਸਾਧੰ ॥ ਭਜੋ ਪਾਨ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਅਰੂਪੀ ਅਰਾਧੰ ॥੨੪॥ भ्रमै दुशट पुशटं हसै सुध साधं ॥ भजो पान दुरगा अरूपी अराधं ॥२४॥

Onseeing him, the tyrants got illusioned and the saints smiled in theirpleased mind; he remembered the formless and mysterious Durga.

ਸੁਨੇ ਉਸਤਤੀ ਭੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੰ ॥ ਅਧੰ ਉਰਧਵੀ ਆਪ ਰੂਪੀ ਰਸਾਲੰ ॥ सुने उसतती भी भवानी क्रिपालं ॥ अधं उरधवी आप रूपी रसालं ॥

On listening to her praises, Bhavani was pleased on him and she endowed him with unique beauty;

ਦਏ ਇਖ੍ਵ ਧੀ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਅਭੰਗੰ ਖਤੰਗੰ ॥ ਪਰੈਸਯੰ ਧਰੰ ਜਾਨ ਲੋਹੰ ਸੁਰੰਗੰ ॥੨੫॥ दए इख्व धी द्वै अभंगं खतंगं ॥ परैसयं धरं जान लोहं सुरंगं ॥२५॥

She gave him two unfailing arms which could cause the steel-armoured enemies to fall on the earth.

ਜਬੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਾਧੀ ਸਭੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਉਘਾਰੇ ਚੁਮੇ ਕੰਠ ਸੀਸੰ ਛੁਹਾਏ ॥ जबै शसत्र साधी सभै शसत्र पाए ॥ उघारे चुमे कंठ सीसं छुहाए ॥

When this king, practising the armament, obtained the weapons, he kissed them, hugged them and placed them on his head;

ਲਖਯੋ ਸਰਬ ਰਾਵੰ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵੰ ਅਪਾਰੰ ॥ ਅਜੋਨੀ ਅਜੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਿੱਦਿਆ ਬਿਚਾਰੰ ॥੨੬॥ लखयो सरब रावं प्रभावं अपारं ॥ अजोनी अजै बेद बि्दिआ बिचारं ॥२६॥

All the kings saw him as unconquerable warrior and a successful scholar of he Vedic learning.

ਗ੍ਰਿਹੀਤ੍ਰਾ ਜਬੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਸਤ੍ਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੰ ॥ ਪੜੇ ਅਨਭਵੰ ਬੇਦ ਬਿੱਦਿਆ ਬਿਚਾਰੰ ॥ ग्रिहीत्रा जबै शसत्र असत्रं अपारं ॥ पड़े अनभवं बेद बि्दिआ बिचारं ॥

After obtaining the unlimited arms and weapons, he also obtained the experience of the reflection of Vedic learning;

ਪੜੇ ਸਰਬ ਬਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੁਤੀ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਸੰ ॥ ਜਿਤੇ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਸੀ ਸੁ ਅਸਤ੍ਰੰ ਨਰੇਸੰ ॥੨੭॥ पड़े सरब बि्दिआ हुती सरब देसं ॥ जिते सरब देसी सु असत्रं नरेसं ॥२७॥

Hestudies the sciences of all the countries and on the strength of hisarms and weapons, he conquered the kings of all the countries.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib ji p. 1282

Now compare with the example below. Do you believe it is an accident? Is worship of Chandi being condemned, corrected or discouraged? No. Example is given of blessing because of it. Now one text is acceptedas Gurbani, with controversies yet regarding certain translation. Andone is somewhat marginalized as a semi-historical text at best,renounced as brahminvaadi at worst. But what is the truth behind allthe propaganda? The truth is there is a recurring theme, notdiscouraged in Shri Dasam Granth except for particular tuuks out ofcontext with questionable translation that oddly becomes a mouthpiece for Singh Sabha denunciations of the sanatan imagery of the purataan granths.

ਕਹਯੋ ‘ਬਿਅਦਬੀ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨਿ ਕੇਰੀ ਤੈਂ ਕਯੋਂ ਚਰਨ ਲਗਾਯੋ । ਅਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਯ ‘ਖੜਗ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਨਿਜ ਧੁਜ ਬਿਖੈ ਸਹਾਯੋ ।੯।

The Guru then said, “You are disrespecting the weapons, why are you putting these weapons near your feet? Akaal Purkh loves the Kharag, on his very own battle standards it (the sword) is displayed. 9

ਆਦਿ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਚੰਡੀ ਰੂਪ ਇਹ ਪੂਜਨ ਜੋਗ ਸਦੀਵਾ । ਸਰਬ ਸੁਰਾਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਕਯਾ ਬਪੁਰੋ ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਬਸਿ ਮਹਿਂ ਥੀਵਾ ।੧੦।

The sword is the Aadi Shakti (primal energy), and is the very form of Sri Chandi. One must always worship it. All demi-gods, goddesses, demons, and humans whose fate was kind contemplated upon this.

ਸਾਦਰ ਸੇਵ ਮਾਞਿਬੇ ਕਰੀਯਹਿ’ ਇਹ ਕਹਿ ਅੱਗ੍ਰ ਸਿਧਾਏ । ਬੈਠੇ ਬਹੁਰ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਆਯੋ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਪਾਏ ।੧੧।

Respectfully clean the weapons.” After saying this Guru walked on. Later on, a Khalsa came and received Guru’s darshan as Guru was sitting down.

ਕੇਤਿਕ ਚਿਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਇਕ ਸਿਖ ਬੋਲਯੋ ‘ਮਾਰਵਾਰਿਯਾ ਜੋਈ । ਪੁੰਜ ਖੜਗ ਸਿਰ ਪਰ ਧਰਿ ਬੈਠਯੋ ਕਾਰ ਨ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੋਈ’ ।੧੨।

After a while a Sikh said to the Guru, “The Marvaari Sikh has placed many weapons (swords) on his head and is sitting, but is not doing any work”

ਸੁਨਿ ਬਿਕਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗਏ ਬਿਲੋਕਨਿ ਦੇਖਯੋ ਤਿਸੀ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰਾ । ‘ਇਹ ਕਯਾ ਕਰਯੋ ਨ ਸੇਵਾ ਠਾਨਤਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਸਮਾ ਗੁਜਾਰਾ’ ।੧੩।

Listening to that, Guru ji went to go see. Upon approaching the Guru said, “What are you doing? You are not doing any service; you are spending your time only resting.”

‘ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਰਾਵਰ ਕੀ ਆਇਸੁ ਅਦਬ ਕਰਨਿ ਇਮ ਹੋਵੈ । ਸੇਵਾ ਮਾਂਞਨ ਕੀ ਹੁਇ ਤੈਸੇ ਜਥਾ ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਮਲ ਖੋਵੇਂ’ ।੧੪।

The Maarvaari Sikh said, “Maharaj, only with your permission can this respectful practice be carried out, the service of washing can only be done that way, in the way (you proscribed) before. That is the only way the filth leaves.”

ਬਿਗਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਿ ‘ਤੁਮ ਕੌ ਬਖਸ਼ਯੋ, ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਿਤ ਦਾਸਾ । ਕਰਹੁ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਤੇ ਸੇਵਾ ਆਯੁਧ, ਤੌ ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਹੁਇ ਪਾਸਾ’ ।੧੫।

The Lord said to the Maarvaari Sikh, “you are blessed; you are always doing service to weapons. With great love you do selfless service to the weapons, with this happiness with always be at your side.”

ਰਾਮ ਸਿੰਘ ਤਿਹ ਨਾਮ ਹੁਤੋ ਸੁਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੋ ਬੰਦਨ ਠਾਨੀ । ਮਾਂਞਨ ਕਰਨਿ ਲਗਯੋ ਸੁਧ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨਿ, ਪੁਨ ਸੁਖ ਲਹਯੋ ਮਹਾਂਨੀ ।੧੬।

The Marvaari Sikh’s name was Ram Singh, after listening to Guru Ji’s word he prostrated before the Guru and started to clean some more weapons. After cleaning the weapons Ram Singh felt a great amount of happiness.

ਊਚੇ ਥਲ ਟਿਕਾਇ ਸਭਿ ਆਯੁਧ ਪੂਜਾ ਸੌਜ ਮੰਗਾਈ । ਲਗੇ ਨੁਰਾਤੇ ਸਗਰੇ ਪੂਜਨ ਚੰਡਿ ਕਾਲਕਾ ਮਾਈ ।੧੭।

After the cleaning; all the weapons were placed on a high level and the Sikhs started to worship them with incense. The festival of Navathri was starting and everyone was worshiping Chandi and Mata (mother) Kaalkaa.

ਚੰਡਿ ਚਰਿੱਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਠ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਹਿਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਅਰੁ ਭਾਖਾ । ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ ਚੰਦਨ ਕੌ ਚਰਚਤਿ ਫੂਲਮਾਲ ਬਹੁ ਰਾਖਾ ।੧੮।

The recitation of Chandi Chritr was starting in both Sanskrit form (from Markhandya Purana) and in Brij Bhasa (from Dasam Granth). Incense, ghee-lamps, sandalwood were all used and great wreaths of flowers were put around the weapons.

~Suraj Prakash , Fouth Rut, Chapter 32 (sakhi Shastar Maajane, Dushiraa)

Topic Title---> Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

Why should I stay away? It's a discussion forum. I happen to believe Panj Piare is valid. I didn't "reject" Panj Piare. I did have an experience and pulled me in another direction than Khalsa Sikhi. But that was just me, I doubt out of a thousand people you would find another who goes through that same thing. You can't convert to it. You can't convert against it. I have never rejected the validity of Panj Piare or the necessity of Khande Ki Pahul for initiation into Sikhi.

I did accept another Guru. That makes me no longer a Khalsa Sikh. It does not mean I have an invalid opinion on the subject. If you think only Khalsa Sikhs should be allowed to participate in these discussions then you need to make a rule making that expressly clear: Only certain kind of persons are invited to express or share an opinion. I did not see that disqualifier before I posted and certainly N30 S!NGH hasn't said anything like that.

Laalsingh needs to make a new forum rule: No non-sikhs who do not conform to our version of Sikhism can post, and then ban the people. Then you may calmly read only your own narrow opinions reflected in people of like mind. God forbid you should actually be allowed to see other points of view. I don't recommend people should run out and find a dedhari Guru. Even if people went to see the Hindu Guru who I went to see, I doubt they would have the same experience. It's not about conversion to or from anything. The people who are drawn there will be drawn. The people who need to go will go. The people drawn to Khalsa Sikhism will also continue to be drawn. Have calmness, the life is going to unfold as it should. No one can take anything away from you which is in the core of your being. There are things moving in the lives of people we can neither see nor control. It is God's own lila.

I had work injury and now I am at home taking care of my mamaji and driving internet people crazy, of course!

this topic has nothing to do with discrimination or equality

I agree. But many people believe it is and is a frequent point in such discussions.

Some have shared the mahapursh views that amrit becomes invalid with bibi in the panj pyares seva same view some of nihangs mahapursh have held that amrit is invalid without- sri dasam granth sahib parkash. So where you stop?

I don't think amrit becomes invalid, I think it will have a different energetic effect. Just as a particular scenario was designed to bring about a particular effect. If amrit sinchar was done with great piare and high avestha Singhnia and all bibiaan, it would probably not be invalid. But can you imagine the results energetically? Of course it has an affect on the person. Is there a transmission occuring? Yes! The transmission is occurring through the bani. But energetically, the Panj Piare are putting their imprint into the transmission as well. This is why the spiritual jeevan of the Panj is so important. Even if all 5 Singhs were paapis and fraudsters, if they recited the BANI (which is the True power of amrit sinchaar) correctly and with sincerity, it would be a valid amrit. BUT, again, imagine the energetic effect? It would be like being in the delivery room and the person to catch the baby did so with unwashed hands. It exposes the spiritual jeevan of the recipient to unwanted contaminations right off the bat.

Suppose one of the panj was outwardly very holy. But secretly was a smoker. Would the amrit sinchaar be valid? Again, the transmission occurs through the power of BANI. HOWEVER, the energetic imprint of the persons who perform the amrit sinchaar by acting in the place of Guru Sahib are also critical and have an effect on the recipient which will be long-lasting. You may never know the secret paaps or disqualifications of someone who acted as panj. But it doesn't change the effect. The TRANSMISSION COMES THROUGH THE BANI. This is why amrit is amrit regardless sampraday who perform it. But if persons performing it had hidden disqualifications of their person, then there is something else added energetically. It doesn't disqualify the amrit because only changes in the bani would have this effect.

Now as to the question of banis used, I would say there is a particular reason for particular banis and if this has changed since purataan times, it would explain some problems we see in the modern Panth. However, as long as panj banis are recited, the amrit sinchaar would still be valid. I don't know about inclusion of bani of Tenth Master, but if it were a new innovation it would probably be unwise. If it can be supported as historically being done, then it is foundational and never should have be excluded. As there is no question Shri Dasam Granth is warrior based and the energy from this bani would be energetically very high shakti.

Everyone here can agree on all panj pyares in 1699 were all bhramgyanis and bhramgyan is above gender.

Bramgyaan is a quality which is above gender because the kutashtha chaitanya is present in all. But brahmgyaan is not a requirement for serving as the Panj. And brahmgyaan is not the requested result from the panj. What is required and what is requested is willingness to be a physical sacrifice. Now, without doubt many many bibiaan have sacrificed and will sacrifice in future willingly and cheerfully. But the energetic imprint is still present also based on gender. Because in this duality world, we are divided along gender lines. The kutashtha chaitanya is without gender but the body is not. Males simply have more bir ras than females by nature, instinctively. And there is an energetic imprint receiving from men as opposed to receiving from women.

Now if it were not for this warrior factor, then I would not personally see any problem with this initiation involving high avestha bibiaan. But it is a very particular initiation intended to bring about a very particular effect. One needs to consider also why all the Guru Sahiban were males. The panj are representing physically, as energy transmitters, the spiritual JYOT of Guru Sahib IN THE BANI.

Spiritual Jyot has no gender! HOWEVER, it is the transmission of the Shabad-Jyot which is affected by the physical instrument of the Panj. The energies they add to it will have an influence spiritually over the recipient that may need to be purified. If a person with high avestha receives the amrit under less than ideal conditions, the amrit is valid, but the person may feel something less, or weakening. But by performance of spiritual sadhana of keeping rehit and sayig daily nitenam banis, the person will grow spiritually anyway. But a person with personal weaknesses is going to feel more stronger any particular weaknesses as a result and it may affect them in hidden ways. Again, BANI is medicine, it is the cure and the solution for everything. So, amrit sinchaar is the starting point, but the survival of spiritual jeevan is the reciting BANI with heart and mind and full attention. This will purify the recipient of any negative, or unwanted spiritual energies resulting from having an imperfect panj, because let's face it, people aren't perfect. But the BANI itself is also ENERGY PRESENCE of LIVING MASTER. The closer you come to staying in the presence of that energy, the better your spiritual jeevan will be. And this is why people are sent home with comitment to keep nitenam, and not to hang around the people who acting as the Panj Piare. So it is a rectifiable situation if amrit was received from less than perfect Panj, because I think it would be most unusual case where all 5 were perfected beings who could competently give a perfect energy transmission, lol.

But ideally people shouldn't shoot for things outside the original maryada as there was deliberation and intent in it.

Mahapursh who had two different view than them, interacted with them with no issues and consider them khalsa sikhs.

I would never contradict any mahapurash from any sampraday as I am not one. I am only giving reasons for my opinion.

3ho jatha had female panj pyares and many female bhramgyanis from nirmal mandali including above mahapursh from rara sahib branch of hapur gave naam and naam jugti. Also when it comes to naam amrit goes, there are many cases were female bhramgyanis have given naam and naam jugti in form of panj payres.

NAAM is different, it is not the transmission of warrior qualities initiating into Fauj. Again, brahmgyaanis don't grow on trees and I highly doubt that in average amrit sinchaar there is even a brahmgyaani withon a thousand miles, lol. So yes, quite apart from AKJ beliefs on the subject that NAAM should only be imparted by the PANJ, perhaps the Nirmalay are on to something where they will travel a great distance to receive NAAM and NAAM jugti from a known sampraday brahmgyaan.

where you draw the line:

- Tapoban singhs believe without sarbloh batta, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Many nihang singhs beleive without parkash of sri dasam granth, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Taksali view of gyani thakur singh ji, with female in panj pyares, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Many believe, if woman who is gursikh does not put patsah in the batta physically that amrit sanchar is invalid.

I don't believe the amrit becomes "invalid" provided that the BANIS are being recited correctly and with concentration and intent. As THAT is the transmission. However, these things are not just superficial and will have a profound and lasting effect on the quality of that transmission.

Without a Sarbloh batta? I think energetically this is even more crucial than having an all-male Panj. How can you be accepting amrit in dedicated service to the ALL-STEEL when you don't have sarbloh batta to transmit that shakti? I would consider this amrit to be spiritually weak and potentially ineffective far and beyond the question of bibiaan in the Panj. That person who received such amrit, I would recommend he speak to mahapurash in his own sampraday whether or ot amrit should be retaken. And only in this special instance, because SARBLOH is the physical PRESENCE of the ALL-STEEL/IRON GOD WHO IS SATINAAM (sarguna). So definitely, something is critically lacking in the energy trasmission without it.

Sarbloh is a conductor of energy and it holds an electro-magnetic charge. If you don't have a sarbloh batta, then you aren't holding the shakti of the recited BANI in the amrit water. And you aren't transmitting it to the recipient. MOREOVER, Panj are rubbing the Khanda against the sides of the batta putting the metal rust mixing into the amrit. So a person drinking amrit from sarbloh batta are drinking in the SARBLOH STEEL as well as the sweet water as well as the energy of the BANI.

ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥

sach kee kaathee sach sabh saar ||

The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.

~SGGS Ji ang 956

ਅਸੰਖ ਸੂਰ ਮੁਹ ਭਖ ਸਾਰ ॥

Asaʼnkẖ sūr muh bẖakẖ sār.

Countless heroic spiritual warriors, who with their mouths eat steel.

~SGGS Ji ang 4

If this huge modification - avastha of panj pyares- bhramgyan can be loosen to rehitvan singhs is justified based on understanding and need in the panth then why not modification of having female in panj pyares in amrit sanchar for the sake of same reasons- understanding and need.

As pointed out above, some modifications will alter the energy vibration and have hidden effect on the recipients, but too many modifications and people will with best intentions, unknowingly create conditions which can and will invalidate the amrit sinchaar.

You don't need a brahmgyaani for amrit initiation or we must then admit that 99.9% of all amrit sinchaars are invalid, lol. You do need a rehitjeevan Singh because he will be a clean instrument to pass the spiritual energy vibration of the BANI who lives his life japping BANI. You need a sarbloh baata or you may not even have an energy transmission of that BANI even if you want to real bad, lol. It is better to have a male than a female to transmit bir ras when initiating into Khalsa Fauj. As far as receiving NAAM and jugti of it from bibiaan, if that person is a high avestha rehitjeevan bibia there would be no issue with the transmission of NAAM. If the person is a rare sant and brahmgyaani, even better blessing.

If we just accept modifications for the sake of understanding, then why is everybody bent out of shape over Baba Ram Rahim and his innovative Sat Sitare and Inshaan Amrit pink drink? We have no right to change amrit sinchaar based on our own understanding or we are doing what Ram Rahim did, and that is to act as if we are the Guru ourselves. And THAT is mahapaap. Innovations are not a good thing. They are based on our own interpretation. And they have the effect of weakening or even nullifying an actual energy transmission critical for initiation. BECAUSE SIKHI doesn't have a living, physical dedhari Guru to transmit the energy imprint of the GURU and HIS SANKALPA, there is NO ROOM FOR ERROR IN THE ACCEPTED MARYADA OF TRANSMISSION.

It is not about justifications based on understanding, reason or fairness. It is about energy transmission, factors that weaken it or provide unwanted influences, or actually sever it. You sever the energy transmission and you don't have an initiation. No one can afford innovations which might interfere with initiation process or the Singhs of today cannot possibly become the Singhs of 1699.

what you do?

You keep as closely as possible to the original as faithfully as you can. Some error or changes perhaps can't be helped, but you avoid innovation at all costs.

I'm inclined to believe there was wisdom in the purataan maryada. Khalsa initiation is conducted with bir ras and the energies of women are different. Women are equal, but different, and you just can't ignore that fact. Yes, women can become fighters when pushed but it is not natural inclination of a woman who tends to be softer and more nurturing. LAST THING an initiated warrior needs is maternal energies.

So I think there is wisdom in the original Panj being all male and this having nothing to do with discrimination or even archaic rules of outdated maryada, but actual point of spiritual balance in initiating warriors. On the other hand, nothing is to stop female mahapurash from giving initiations for NAAM abhiyaas or some spiritual teaching, but it just doesn't make sense from the warrior point of view.

Traditionally in Hindu Mat Guru's are nearly always males. Only in the Tantric Shakta tradition are there female Gurus who are able to give initiations. Even if we analyze from the extreme view that certain writings of Dasam Pita Ji reflect Shakta ideology. Then it really says something that all original panj were males. So it would be foolish to go against that wisdom. That EVEN IF Guru Ji were believing in some form of Shaktism, that He would establish ALL MALE Panj Piare to be mode of transmission of spiritual energies. So I don't think the argument for female Panj Piare has any precedent or validity.

It's not an equality or respect or discrimination issue. The body does count for something, it is a vehicle of particular vibrations and energies. Also an injured person who does not have the complete physical form, what is he transmitting through that form? You see, everything that a victorious warrior does NOT want transmitted, and that is mutilation or injury. So these things from an energetic spiritual point of view are very legitimate. I think Guru Ji knew exactly what He was doing, and we shouldn't impose or make any changes.

Oh sorry Jio. No ras malai for u tho. It's too fattening.

MODS, please remove the irrelevant off-topic anti-Dasam Granth propaganda.

To look at sanatan concepts in Shri Dasam ranth is NOT anti-Dasam Granth propaganda. Mind your nindya. And it's not irrevelvant as it relates to Chandi.

If you ever visit India, then seek out Mahapursh from the Sampardas that N30 mentioned and speak to them.

Actually I have spoken to Nirmalas and Udasis and that's why I don't believe you.

Murtis were first introduced to Harmandir Sahib after the annexation of Punjab by the British. It was under control of Hindu mahants, not Udasi or Nirmala Sikhs. There are quite a few contemporary paintings of Harmandir Sahib during the Sikh Raj and no murtis are present

I don't believe you. For one thing even the murals which still exist contain Hindu Mat themes and devatay.

Have you read what Guru Gobind Singh Ji says about murtis and people who worship them?

I don't accept that Shri Dasam Granth translation hasn't been tampered with. But I am open to analysis and study of it, which requires knowledge of Sanskrit and Braj. The translation everybody is reading from is the Punjabi translation by the SGPC, and yes, there are concerns regarding certain passages. Perhaps they ARE correct. I would be happy if you could prove it to me. But because the controversy is real and does exist, I'm afraid I just don't believe your interpretation of things. For one thing, you would have to acknowledge, if your view is correct, that EVERYTHING has been tampered with. Not only murthis in Harimandir Sahib, but Prem Sumarag discussing Gul-shastars with Chandi murthi, Suraj Prakash discussing how Sikhs did Chandi puja during time of Guru Gobind Singh, you would have to explain Gur Bilas.

Now, if you allege Shri Dasam Granth is the basis for condemnation of avtaray and devatay, we can have analysis and debate on it as much as you want. PROVE IT. Because when I look at it, I see only interpretation which isn't even in context of the whole pauri. Every purataan Granth with sanatan themes (which overlap Hindu Mat) has to be called "tampered with." Then I ask you, what evidence exists which proves your words that Harimandir during time of British did NOT have murthis? Where is the citation? Because we KNOW Maharaja Ranjit Singh sponsored Hindu mandirs in his kingdom and participated in Devi pujas.

It is not the SGPC maryada that rejects worship of avtars and devtey, it is Gurbani.

SGPC SRM is based on Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Show me from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where avtaray and devatay are rejected. Because SGPC SRM doesn't say WORSHIP is rejected. It says AVATARAY AND DEVATAY are rejected. Explain? Since SGPC seems to believe they are metaphorical.

I don't understand why you keep going round in circles.

Because I don't agree your opinion. So I still believe differently.

Ram Rai Mahant Lineage

They may be opposed now but they were mahants in Harimandir Sahib and they were not Hindus but schismatic sect of Sikhs.

Another notable Udasi sadhu was Mahant Kirpal who took part in the battle of Bhangani (1689) under Guru Gobind Singh. After the abolition of the order of the Masands by Guru Gobind Singh, the preaching of Guru Nanak`s word fell to the Udasis who also gradually took control of the Sikh places of worship. (Many Sikhs were Martyred in the early part of the 20th century when Sikh Sangats undertook regaining control of their Gurdwaras from men who had begun to consider the Gurdwaras and their attached lands as their personal property.)

The Udasin worship panchayatana, a combination of five deities, namely Shiva, Vishnu, the Sun, goddess Durga, and Ganesh. Moreover they worship their founder-Guru Shrichandra. Their philosophy is basically the monistic Vedanta as set forth by Shankara, and in other respects as well they closely resemble the Shaiva sannyasis. Udasi

In 1768 Bk/AD 1711 an Udasi sadhu, SANT Gopal Das, popularly known as Goddar Faquir, was appointed GRANTHI at the Harimandar at AMRITSAR by Bhai Mani Singh, sent to Amritsar as custodian of the shrine by Mata Sundari. Gopal Das was later replaced by another Udasi, Bhai Chahchal Singh, a pious and devoted Sikh. Udasis recruit their followers from all castes and professions.

During eighteenth century, the Udasis (not appearing as Khalsa Singhs) escaped the persecution of the Mughal rulers. Since they considered themselves as Sikhs, this naturally led them to look after the Sikh shrines in the absence of Khalsa Singhs and the Akalis/Nihangs (see separate entries). Here they performed a key role in keeping Sikh teaching alive. Anand Ghan, an Udasi scholar of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, wrote commentaries on the Adi Granth from a largely Hindu-Vedantic perspective.

The Mahants (those in charge of the Gurdwaras) of the nineteenth and early twentieth century, frequently claimed an Udasi descent, though their life style had considerably changed. When the Khalsa Singhs were involved in war against the Mughals, it was the Udasis that kept the Guru’s tradition alive by becoming custodians of the Gurdwaras. Udasi

Nirmala teachings incorporated Sikh teachings and doctrines within a largely Hindu/Vedantic framework. Nirmala Study any kind of spiritual knowledge book like Vedas, Puranas, katebs. Like the Udasis they were celibates, and did not believe in holding private funds. The Nirmalas, with the Udasis, form part of the Sanatan Sikh world-view and share many of its beliefs; along with belief in yogic/meditative and scriptural recitation and study. In addition to the Adi Granth, they rely on the Vedas, Shastras, Puranas and Epic literature. It is not surprising therefore that their Sanatan position does pitch them against the Tat Khalsa and fundamental Gurmat teachings on certain beliefs...

Giānī Giān Siṅgh (1822-1921) is known for his contribution to Sikh history. His Panth Prakāsh in verse appeared in 1880 and Twārīkh Gurū Khālsā in prose in 1891. However, the Nirmalās also contributed to heavy Brāhmanical influenced interpretations of Sikh scriptures and Sikh history. They also introduced Brāhman rituals into the Sikh Gurdwārās during the time the Khālsā were considered fugitives by the state and lived in the jungles up until the Singh Sabhā movement.

Today they form a well respected and highly disciplined organisation with many establishments. As a legitimate part of Sikh History they are accepted as a part of the Sikh Panth, more so than the Udasis. However, any individual or group that does not believe in Khaṇḍe di Pahul, maintaining Kesh, wearing the 5 Kakkaars blessed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and believe solely in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and no other scriptures or devi devte, cannot be considered as Sikhs. Nirmala

With respect, the above article is clearly written from a Tat Khalsa bias. Nonetheless, the role of Nirmalay along with Udasay in preserving Sikh heritage with a sanatan world-view blending Sikh and Hindu religious practices is well established. I can't imagine what you hope to prove by denying the obvious.

During the 18th century, Udasis, escaped persecution by the Mughal Empire, as they look different from Khalsa Sikh and Akalis, in whose absence they took care of Sikh places of worship and kept the teachings of Sikhism alive. This responsibility was with them for more than a century, and at one point in history (approximately 1849), there were more than 250 Udasi akharas, or centres, in India.

During the Gurdwara Reform Movement of the early 1920s, Udasis lost control of all the historical shrines. There are presently far fewer Udasis than there were prior to the Gurudwara Reform Movement.

Traditionally, there were four Udasi centres, akharas or dhuans, with each controlling a certain preaching area; namely, eastern India (main centre, Nanakmatta), western Panjab and Kashmir, Malwa (Punjab) and Doaba. There is an Udasi temple in Amritsar, near the Harimandir Sahib (Golden Temple). Udasi

....the lines between who is hindu and who is sikh were a lot more blurred during and immediately after the (sikh) gurus times on earth, than they are today.

Hindus from the Punjab who under the leadership of Guru Gobind Singh took up arms against the mughals, adorned the five kakkars of the guru, and took amrit would describe themselves as Khalsa - (PURE), rather than sikh.

When the fighting was over they would go back to their day to day duties and carry on with their Hindu rituals and festivals such as Diwali, rakhri, lohri and vaisakhi.

...they saw no contradictions in doing so either.....therfore it would be of no surprise that the eldest son of a Hindu family would join the Khalsa army whilst at the same time retaining his Hindu identity /religion during these times.

inter marriage was not seen as an obstacle either and was infact encouraged along the same caste lines....

....it was only with the arrival of the British that words such as sikhi-ism and Hindu-ism were coined, largley to help the British differentiate between and understand the complex spirituality of the natives.....it was also during these times, towards the end of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's empire that the word sikh became more popular as a means to describe what was now begining to be seen as a more distinct religion, than the aforementioned khalsa which was more of an army/hieretichal description......

... therfore one should not be alarmed to note that the holiest shrine of the Khalsa panth (not religion) was named after a Hindu deity, and the practice of idol worship was implemeted by the largely hindu punjabi adherrents to the khalsa panth, soon after its construction...

it was only centuries later after the onset of the British paid historians such as Kahn Singh Nabha that distinctions were formed forged and two seperate belief systems were formed ...this eventually led to idols of the Hindu deities and Guru Harigovind being removed.....largely under the influence of Wilheim Leitner, Kahn Singh Nabha and Max Arthur Macauliffe.....

Navjot Singh Oberoi -

Kushwant Singh and Sumair Singh also wrote articles about how the murthis have been in Sikh places of worship since Guru Sahibaan times since Guru Sahibaan didn't believe imposing on anyone's practice of worship and the local population had these practices. So, you may have an opinion and you may be right. But evidence exists of another opinion which refutes you by well known scholars. I don't see anything backing your opinion which is the typical Tat Khalsa claim with any source material. Kindly post your rebuttal. I know you were having this debate in Sikh Sangat. I don't know why, even if you disagree that you outright deny the existance and legitimacy of the other opinion. To be honest, we weren't there and may never know. But the evidence seems weighted against the Tat Khalsa version of (sanitized of sanatan) Sikh history.

All the samparda's within sikhism- taksal, nirmale, sevapanthis, nihangs consider sikhi to be anadi or sanatan(same meaning). It just you obviously have different definition and understanding of sanatan sikhism then sikh mahapursh belonging to above samparda's.

Udasis and Nirmalay and Sevapanthis, they believe or don't believe that the Divine Supreme manifests in form of avtaray and devatay? Yes or no?

Then, if you admit they do, how is my definition of sanatan different when I believe that the nirgun manifests in the sargun as well? And what is huge point of contention between the Tat Khalsa view and the sanatani view is that GOD is unborn and never incarnates, Sikhi rejects devatay and avtaray as per SGPC SRM, and Devi is just aother created form with no power.

Because from what I understand all these sampraday blend in with overlap with traditional Hindu Mat and no separation. Whereas the more modern sampraday make this huge bugaboo about separation. They are also reading Vedas and Puranas and understanding the Vedantic definitions of terms and not the radical Tat Khalsa ones where Jog literally doesn't even mean Jog.

So what is this profound difference in definition of the term sanatan that I have?

This book is an effort to bring out the history of Damdami Taksaal. The book says that Guru Amardas Ji appointed 22 ‘Manjis’ and 72 ‘Peerhaas’ to preach the Gurbani. Guru Arjan Dev Ji edited ‘Beerh Sahib’ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji). Baba Sri Chand started preaching the Gurmat. After Sri Chand, Baba Gurditta Ji was famous ‘Mahatma’ of Udasi sect. There were four disciples of Baba Gurditta Ji. Their names were ‘Baalu Hasna’, ‘Phoole Shah’, ‘Goyenda’ and ‘Almast’. They established four ‘Dhooney’ of Udasis. The four ‘Dhooney’ and six ‘Bakhsishaan’ are called ‘Das Naam Udasi’. All the Udasis belonging to these ‘Dhooney’ and ‘Bakhshishaan’ established hundred of ‘Deras’, ‘Akhaarhe’ and centers. During the hard days of Mughal rule, Udasis, Nirmalas and Seva Panthis continued to preach Sikhi. The book tells that many chiefs of Sikh ‘Misals’ adopted Sikhi under influence of Udasi, Nirmalas and Sevapanthis.

During the ‘Singh Sabha Movement’, Udasis and Nirmalas established idols of Sri Chand and removed Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or they installed other books of Hindu religious books along with Guru Granth Sahib, so that their ‘deras’ could not be taken over under new Gurdwara Act. The book says that Udasis used not to cut their hair/beard, but frightened by Singh Sabha movement, now ‘Jataa-dhari’, ‘Mundit’, ‘Bhasmadhari’, ‘Nange’ and those, who wear russet clothes, can be seen. Itihaas Damdami Taksaal (Sankhep)

Really, this entire conflict is not about any RSS imposition onto Sikhi but analysis of what really constituted sanatan Sikhi and how that differs from anti-sanatanism of today. The above passage doesn't even reflect how Udasi Mahants (and some Nirmalay) stored idols removed from Gurdwaray including Harimandi Sahib and put into safekeeping in 1908 when Tat Khalsas removed them. So, how is keeping of murthis so utterly different a description of the kind of definition I have of sanatan? Are the animal sacrifices in Chandi puja conduicted by Maharaja Ranjit Singh a different kind of sanatan?

It's a different kind of sanatan now? Sanatan means the eternal yes, but also referring to practices and beliefs which in fact do overlap with Hindu Mat.