HarjasDevi

You were also shown that the correct interpretation of the tuk you quote in your sig is that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Guru is not Shiva, Brahma, or whatever but is the Guru of the guru of these entities.

You were shown the interpretation from the great Nirmala Faridkot Steek, yet you still rejected that view simply because it is not in accord with your personal views.

You were shown Faridkot steeka was commisioned by the prince of Faridkot who was a staunch supporter of the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha Khalsa Diwan Society. That is the origin of the Faridkot steeka. And while Nirmalay sampraday may have copies of it, their sampraday is not the origin of it. Hence it is beyond obvious that the "interpretation" of the Faridkot steeka is representative of Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha Reform interpretations and actually commissioned to reflect that ideology separating Hindu Mat from Gurbani.

And for what it's worth, it's very clear to me and others who have seen you defend AKJ ideology on tapoban, and some time later describe Sikhi as nothing but a form of "militant Hinduism" (those were your words), with equal vigour, that your inability to seriously evaluate your beliefs while you believe them in a rational manner is what leads you to interpret as hostility anything that runs counter to whatever beliefs you hold at some point in time.

Until you overcome this personality trait of yours, you will face hostility wherever you go.

Nothing but? I never reduced Gursikhi to "nothing but" anything. Those are lies on your lips to smear what I am actually saying. However, it is historically valid and part of purataan tradition that Sikh Fauj are a military response to the Mughal invasions in order to defend own homeland (Hindustan) from oppression and injustice, even to point that Guru Tagh Bahadur Ji is given title Hindu di chaddar, and even calling Himself a Hindu. Or do you deny it ? And before you demonize me about this subject, at least be honest how I totally exposed MK Gandhi, Indira Gandhi, and K.P.S. Gill corrupted injustices and also got banned from Hindu Dharma forums.

Edit: And here's the post (fourth in the thread) on the Hindu Dharam forums where you criticise Tat Khalsa views and blame them for the Nirankari murder of innocent Sikhs and the separation between Sikhs and Hindus. You also refer to Sikhs as Hindu.

Sikhs are Hindus. I said that on these forums too. But what you need to do analysis on is what context you refer to the term "Hindu?" Did Sikhi originate in Hindustan? Yes. That makes Sikh religion part of Hindustani culture, ergo, Sikhs from Hindustani culture and Sikh tradition is HINDU. Is Sikhi derived from Sanatana Dharma and Sruti? Without a doubt. Sikhi has so much more in common with Hindu Mat than Jain or Buddhist religion. Yet Jain and Buddhist religions have no trouble to deny origin and relationship with Sanatana Dharma. Why do you?

Yes, the radical Tat Khalsas have a definite talibani mentality which pits conflict between Sanatan Hindu Mat and Sikhi as a life or death struggle. Even going so far as to assassinate and justify assassination of sanatan dera babas and gurus. Is it not so?

They did it, they said, to avenge the ‘injustices’ done to the Sikhs by the Hindus; to defend the Faith against the machinations of the ‘evil Brahmins’ who were out to destroy it; to protect the lives and liberties of ‘persecuted Sikhs’ against an inimical and communalised State. They had simply borrowed their contemporary mythology from the Akalis. But the creed of hatred that had been propagated for decades was suddenly translated into action. Its source and centre remained in the Gurudwaras; but its idiom was now the bullet and the bomb.

Every instrument and strategy was adopted to perpetuate the myth, to authenticate it: selective killings; the alternating desecration of Hindu and Sikh religious places; sermons of a malevolent rage - anything that could drive a wedge between communities; anything that could incite a slaughter of the Hindus in the state, and a retaliatory pogrom against the Sikhs in the rest of India. That could have fulfilled their ambitions. Like the Akalis, however, they found only a few who could be swayed by their psalms of terror. To most, their falsehood was apparent from the outset. But those who did not believe them remained silent. Those who believed them, killed for their convictions. And many more joined in the slaughter, for profit, for greed, for power, for lust, for drugs, or for the opiate of the sheer freedom from moral restraint that terrorism represented.

Some of the believers still survive; they will, eventually, seek to revive and extend their fraternity of strife. As long as the myth persists, it will find its votaries. It is the myth, consequently, that we must contend with. Who were the victims of these ‘defenders of the Sikh Faith’? Of a total of 11,694 persons killed by terrorists in Punjab during the period 1981-1993, 7,139 - more than 61 per cent - were Sikhs.

The most dramatic killings, the ones that were projected to the greatest extent by the terrorists themselves, were always of the Hindus, or of other ‘enemies of the Faith’, such as the ‘apostate Sant Nirankaris’. But the most consistent victims, and perhaps the most dreaded opponents of the terrorists, were Sikhs. The terrorists claimed to speak for the entire Panth. Thus, any Sikhs who questioned their authority to do so, who questioned their actions, who exposed the immorality of their methods was a far greater danger to them than the Hindus could ever be. They threatened the credibility of the great myth. And they, above all others, had to die for it.

II

The incident to which the genesis of the terrorist movement in Punjab is traced, occurred in April 1978. The SGPC White Paper gives the Akali version of the background against which violence occurred. "....the Nrinkaris of Delhi," it observes, "were clandestinely supported and promoted by the Government in pursuance of its policy to create a schism and ideological confusion among the Sikhs."² And further, "The provocative utterances and activities brought the Nrinkaris into open clash with the Sikhs. In 1951, at Amritsar, the then Nrinkari Chief Avtar Singh, held a Satsang attended by his about two hundred followers [sic]. Some Sikhs clashed with the Nrinkari chief as he had committed an act of sacrilege by proclaiming himself a Guru in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib. These bickerings continued and ultimately the two important Sikh organisations known as the Damdami Taksal and the Akhand Kirtni Jatha also came forward to confront the attack of the Nrinkari."³ "The tension that had been building up for quite some time, resulted in clashes at Batala, Sri Hargobindpur, Pathankot, Qadian, Ghuman and Gurdaspur between the Nrinkaris and the followers of Sant Kartar Singh.⁴ Clashes were also reported from Tarn Taran, Ludhiana and Ropar."⁵ The circumstances of the actual clash are then described:

The Nrinkaris [sic] decided to hold their convention in Amritsar on April 13, 1978, the birthday of the Khalsa, when a large number of Sikh devotees throng the holy city. It was alleged that the place, date and time of the convention were deliberately chosen by the Nrinkaris in connivance with the Congress, which had been out of power and was trying to embarrass the Akali-Janata alliance, in order to get political leverage. One day before the Convention, on April 12, the Nrinkaris took out a procession, during the course of which their Chief allegedly made some derogatory remarks against the Sikh religion. These provocative gestures led to a lot of resentment in the Sikh circles in the city. Next day some followers of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and those of the Akhand Kirtni Jatha, went totally unarmed to the venue of Nrinkari congregation to dissuade the Nrinkari Chief from denigrating Sikh religion and its Gurus. The Nrinkaris, who were well equipped with rifles and sten guns fired at the approaching Sikhs, resulting in the death of thirteen of them.

⁶

The SGPC version is interesting, both in terms of what it attempts to conceal as of the mind-set it exposes. Given their own evaluation of the background, violence could easily have been predicted. The ‘Government’ they refer to when they speak of the encouragement given to the Nirankaris is the succession of Congress governments that had ruled at the Centre. However, this ‘villain for all occasions’ was, in April 1978, out of power both in Punjab and in Delhi. The state, at that time, was under the command of the Akali Dal-Janata Party coalition; and the Centre was ruled by the Janata Party, with the Akali Dal both supporting and participating in the Government. The ‘place, date and time’ of the Nirankari Convention, ‘chosen by the Nrinkaris in connivance with the Congress’, were sanctioned by the Akali Dal Government in Punjab, with full knowledge of the history of conflict that the SGPC document outlines. The role of both the Damdami Taksal and the Akhand Kirtani Jatha in this conflict was also known to the Akali Government. Yet no attempt was made to prevent, shift, or change the schedule of, the Nirankari Convention.

This is not all. Shortly before the ‘totally unarmed’ protesters set out for the venue of the Nirankari Convention, they had assembled in the Golden Temple, where the then Akali Dal Revenue Minister, Jeevan Singh Umranangal tried, unsuccessfully, to explain away the Government’s decision to allow the Nirankari Convention to take place. Bhindranwale interrupted the proceedings, shouting "We will not allow this Nirankari convention to take place. We are going to march there and cut them to pieces!"⁷ No precautionary measures were taken in response.

A procession of a few hundred agitated Sikhs, led by Bhindranwale and by Fauja Singh of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha, then left the Golden Temple and set out for the Nirankari Convention. On the way, in what was perhaps the first act of gratuitous violence by the future terrorists of ‘Khalistan’, they hacked off the arm of a Hindu sweetmeats seller. On arriving at the convention, they rushed the stage on which the chief of the Nirankaris was seated; Fauja Singh drew his sword and tried to behead the Nirankari leader; he was shot by a bodyguard. In the skirmish that followed, two of Bhindranwale’s followers, another eleven of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha, and three Nirankaris were killed [bhindranwale himself is said to have fled the scene just as the violence broke out, and this was a sore point between him and the Akhand Kirtani Jatha. Fauja Singh’s widow often described Bhindranwale as a ‘coward’ for running away on this occasion, and blamed him for her husband’s death]. Knights of Falsehood

After we strip the glamor and the personality worship away from the Sikh militancy, if we are terribly honest with ourselves and the convoluted facts, many things are apparent. For one thing, the brutality of the Indian state is reprehensible and cries out for justice. The actions of K.P.S. Gill cry out for justice. But his viewpoint and the viewpoint of the Indian state can't be ignored if we are ever to really understand what happened. For one thing, I find it amazing that while we deny the Indian Government's white paper on the agitation over the Sant Nirankaris in Amritsar, 1978, we have seen so many repetitions of it.

Dera Sacha Sauda protests. Is this how the "peaceful" Gursikhs went marching to meet the Sant Nirankaris in 1978?

Was it with this kind of baiting and provocation, intolerant intimidation, and mob mentality?

Now, I'm not saying Ram Rahim isn't a guilty dog. But that really is a matter for the Courts. But what we're watching is the manuvering of political games and vote bank politics and shifting power in Punjab. But dangerously, it's a game being played by radically delineating who is a "true Sikh" and who is not. It's a game being played by targeting whole communities who attend these deras, for blame, hatred, and violence. For those Sikhs who also suffered profound injustice, scapegoating and targeting, revenge is not any answer. Becoming the persecutor of others is no way to win the world's support for Sikh causes. We are suffering from a deficiency of LEADERSHIP. Imagine if Sikh community could channel these energies and rage morchas into building homes and providing material support to poor in own communities? We could end poverty if we fought that kind of war instead.

*We saw this intolerant targeting of sanatan Mat in the assassination of Darshan Das.

*We saw in it the assassination of Ravidasi Sant Ramanand.

*We saw it in the agitations and sword-waving morchas and death threats against Baba Ram Rahim of Dera Sacha Sauda.

*We saw it in the videotaped speeches of Babbar Khalsa accused bomber Ajaib Singh Bagri.

*We saw it in the attacks and internet character assasination of against Niddar Singh Nihang

*We saw it in the Akali Dal morcha against "Fake" Babas and Sants to which current Akal Takht Jathedar Giani Gurbachan Singh attended with posters of Babbar Khalsa militants and Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale.

What did we see? We saw Talibani intolerance of HINDU MAT with propaganda aimed to target Sant Babas for murder and violence.

We saw deliberate intimidation and threats to "crush" "by any means necessary" "threats to Sikh identity" in the form of people who "believe sanatan Sant Mat interpretations of Sikhism." And so these fanatics are targeting, scapegoating, propagandizing, killing, everything that I love. Of course I will speak out. And I do not say that I love the evil, or corruptions of sant babas who break the law or do in fact overstep their bounds to offend Sikh religion, and that was the reason for my original post. But the corruptions of a few are not a license to despise the many.

This propaganda war is a war against people for having different beliefs and interpretations, not for any realistic grievances. Everyone is exaggerating the most distorted accusations. But where is the proof? Where is the day in Court? Why are radicalized Tat Khalsas becoming own judge, jury and executioner and expecting everyone to believe their self-aggrandizing self-justifications which only end up praising killers? There's even a video condemning murdered Ravidasi Baba Ramanand Ji for putting tilak on Guru Granth Sahib. It would be laughable if it wasn't a crying shame. Anyone can justify the murder of an unarmed old man over a tilak? A tilak is just scented paste blessing and sign of seal and even kingship. Or was it the sanatan implications of a tilak that they killed him for and did so much nindya?

ਜਿਤਨੇ ਭਗਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਕਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਕਢਾਇ ॥

jithanae bhagath har saevakaa mukh athasath theerathh thin thilak kadtaae ||

All of the devotees and servants of the Lord have the tilak, applied to their foreheads at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

~SGGS Ji ang 733

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥

raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||

The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad.

~SGGS Ji ang 923

ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਕੋ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਰਿਓ ॥

raajaa raam japath ko ko n thariou ||

Meditating on the Sovereign Lord God, who has not been saved?

ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਗਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਿਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

gur oupadhaes saadhh kee sangath bhagath bhagath thaa ko naam pariou ||1|| rehaao ||

Whoever follows the Guru's Teachings and joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is called the most devoted of the devotees.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਬਿਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਿਓ ॥

sankh chakr maalaa thilak biraajith dhaekh prathaap jam ddariou ||

He is adorned with the conch, the chakra, the mala and tilak mark on his forehead; gazing upon his radiant glory, the Messenger of Death is scared away.

~SGGS Ji ang 1105

ਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁਤ ਵਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਭਏ ॥੧੨॥

darookrisan tin ke sut vae|| Tin te Teg Bahaadar bhae||12||

Har Krishan (the next Guru) was his son; after him, Tegh Bahadur became the Guru.12.

ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥

Tilak janjhoo raakhaa Prabh taa kaa|| Koono bado kaloo maih saakaa||

He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread which marked a great event in the Iron age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥

Saadhan het(i) itoo jin(i) daroo|| Soos(u) dooaa par soo na ucdaroo||13||

For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sign.13.

ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥

Dharam het(i) saakaa jin kooaa|| Soos(u) dooaa par sirar(u) na dooaa||

For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahb Ji (SGPC Translation) p. 131

Does anyone of sound mind think this extremist position doesn't reflect the peaceful, holy, just, true and loving universal truths of Gursikhi? But no one can see the extremism while he is caught up in the personality worship of radicalized militants. And that is a real corruption of spirituality. And out of what, blind love for apne, are we going down path of paap betraying our own spiritual jeevan? At the end of our lives on this earth we will ALL have to be painfully honest with our own corruptions of God's Holy Light and Prem and the stupidity we have praised in the name of religion.

This is not the way the God is found.

And I publically repent my previous blind support of wrong things. Because I will be ashamed, if not in this life, then in the next. Eternal Truth which is justice and love is not communal hate. We are accountable for everything we do and say. It matters what we praise. We should defend all defenseless, and not only those who we agree with, just like Holy and Great Jyoti Jyot shining in example of Guru Sahibaan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnYpXxnjb9Q

Anyone can see the Truth. God is reading all our hearts.

1. Lord Shiva 2. Udasin Sri Pritam Das Ji Maharaj of Akhara Sangal Wala, Amritsar 3. Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj- Nanaksar.(Kaleran)

"For example, you were shown that neither Udasis and Nihangs see Sikhs as Hindus, yet you fail to acknowledge this important distinction that is upheld by all schools of Sikh thought."

It's not a distinction ever made in history until the Singh Sabha reform movement. Just to display modern jathedars modern opinions does not erase the obvious sanatan past which peacfully blended sanatan Hindu Sant Mat with Sikhi. The distinction between Sikh and Hindu is a modern political one. Are they distinct? Yes....now they are distinct. But historically did these "clear" divisions exist? No, they did not. Neither did Guru Sahibaan renounce, reject, and deny what modern Tat Khalsa Reform ideologies so boldly claim, even as they ban and edit documents and translations to conform to the modern political ideology of DENYING Hindu heritage in the Sikh history.

But if you carefully read my post here, I am not saying there is not a conflict between our views. I'm saying I'm not here to invalidate what Mahapursash are saying in their katha. That rightfully belongs to the sampradayas which respect and honor them. I have no right to dishonor their words. We can disagree without being rude and disrespectful, in other words. You have not even begun to prove to me anything. Although, you may have suceeded in your own mind of proving to yourself. I am not persuaded.

Hindu and Sikh modernly are political terms. Where do you draw the dividing line? You will trace that dividing line to the Singh Sabha Reform and conflicts between the British and the Indian Nationalist Freedom Movement. Hindu and Sikh did not have the same definition 120, 150, 200, 400 years ago. If it were so clearly distinguished, then why have Sikhs intermarried with Hindu families since time of Guru Sahibaan? Why during the Indian Independence Movement did Sikhs align with Hindus? What's with Master Tara Singh being a founding member of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad? You're just not being honest about the clear reality of purataan overlap and carry-over which existed between the traditional Indic sanatan heritage and Sikhi.

Pujya Chandra Swamiji Udasin

Nirmalay Mahant Ram Singh taking part in festivities marking the day of Mahasamadhi of Gurudev Omkarananda at his ashram, including aarati, havan, puja and bhajan-kirtan.

"...you were shown that neither Udasis and Nihangs see Sikhs as Hindus, yet you fail to acknowledge this important distinction that is upheld by all schools of Sikh thought."

You haven't shown anything which contradicts the obvious. This "distinction" exists in the minds of Tat Khalsas and modern day politics. But from my initial post I'm telling you I'm not here to disrespect the katha of Tat Khalsa Mahapurash. I'm not showing them disrespect to hold a conflicting view. Many of you do however, abuse my opinions. But that is not the purpose of an open forum which includes exposure to and discussion of various viewpoints with an attitude of tolerance and learning. You don't have to share the same beliefs and understanding. I don't understand why you feel any need to attack or invalidate it as "wrong" or "anti-Sikh" or "threatening Sikh identity." It's not supposed to be a Talibani war on opposing interpretations.

See what this Nihang Singh is holding? It's a Gul-shastar.

"On top of the Gul-shastar construct a large lion, four girah high, and six or seven girah in length. Above it {mounted on the lion}, construct a model of the immortal and supremely brave Bhavani Devi."

"Of all the weapons laid out the ones at the center of the kamal-shastar are most important. At the centre is the double-edged khanda sword representing nirguna Mahakal. On either side of the khanda is the curved tulwar sword representing sarguna Chandika. This symbol represents the ancient Ardhanarisvara (half male female Shiva combined with his female nature shakti) insignia from which is derived the Sikh national symbol khanda. In similar manner in order to designate different ranks of Sikh chiefs in times of the Sikh kingdoms was the practice of Sikh Maharajas giving specific insignia designating their rank based upon number of men they commanded. Gul-shastar was one such insignia. The weapons would be arranged in the form of a gul (rose) and stuck to a plaque mounted with idols of Chandi, Shiva, Hanuman, Karttikeya, etc. and when a Sikh chief of such rank would set up camp he would have the Gul-shastar set up in front of his camp designating his rank. Oral tradition also speaks of gardens and orchards being set in a specific manner housing idols of Bhavani (Chandi) to designate rank." Reflections on Prem Sumarag

"Ardhanarisvara (half male female Shiva combined with his female nature shakti) insignia from which is derived the Sikh national symbol khanda."

"...you were shown that neither Udasis and Nihangs see Sikhs as Hindus, yet you fail to acknowledge this important distinction that is upheld by all schools of Sikh thought."

ਕਹਯੋ ‘ਬਿਅਦਬੀ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨਿ ਕੇਰੀ ਤੈਂ ਕਯੋਂ ਚਰਨ ਲਗਾਯੋ ।ਅਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਯ ‘ਖੜਗ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਨਿਜ ਧੁਜ ਬਿਖੈ ਸਹਾਯੋ ।੯।

The Guru then said, "You are disrespecting the weapons, why are you putting these weapons near your feet?

Akaal Purkh loves the Kharag, on his very own battle standards it (the sword) is displayed. 9

ਆਦਿ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਚੰਡੀ ਰੂਪ ਇਹ ਪੂਜਨ ਜੋਗ ਸਦੀਵਾ ।ਸਰਬ ਸੁਰਾਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਕਯਾ ਬਪੁਰੋ ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਬਸਿ ਮਹਿਂ ਥੀਵਾ ।੧੦।

The sword is the Aadi Shakti (primal energy), and is the very form of Sri Chandi. One must always worship it.

All demi-gods, goddesses, demons, and humans whose fate was kind contemplated upon this.

ਸਾਦਰ ਸੇਵ ਮਾਞਿਬੇ ਕਰੀਯਹਿ’ ਇਹ ਕਹਿ ਅੱਗ੍ਰ ਸਿਧਾਏ ।ਬੈਠੇ ਬਹੁਰ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਆਯੋ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਪਾਏ ।੧੧।

Respectfully clean the weapons." After saying this Guru walked on. Later on, a Khalsa came and received Guru’s darshan as Guru was sitting down.

ਕੇਤਿਕ ਚਿਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਇਕ ਸਿਖ ਬੋਲਯੋ ‘ਮਾਰਵਾਰਿਯਾ ਜੋਈ ।ਪੁੰਜ ਖੜਗ ਸਿਰ ਪਰ ਧਰਿ ਬੈਠਯੋ ਕਾਰ ਨ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੋਈ’ ।੧੨।

After a while a Sikh said to the Guru, "The Marvaari Sikh has placed many weapons (swords) on his head and is sitting, but is not doing any work"

ਸੁਨਿ ਬਿਕਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗਏ ਬਿਲੋਕਨਿ ਦੇਖਯੋ ਤਿਸੀ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰਾ ।‘ਇਹ ਕਯਾ ਕਰਯੋ ਨ ਸੇਵਾ ਠਾਨਤਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਸਮਾ ਗੁਜਾਰਾ’ ।੧੩।

Listening to that, Guru ji went to go see. Upon approaching the Guru said, "What are you doing?

You are not doing any service; you are spending your time only resting."

‘ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਰਾਵਰ ਕੀ ਆਇਸੁ ਅਦਬ ਕਰਨਿ ਇਮ ਹੋਵੈ ।ਸੇਵਾ ਮਾਂਞਨ ਕੀ ਹੁਇ ਤੈਸੇ ਜਥਾ ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਮਲ ਖੋਵੇਂ’ ।੧੪।

The Maarvaari Sikh said, "Maharaj, only with your permission can this respectful practice be carried out,

the service of washing can only be done that way, in the way (you proscribed) before. That is the only way the filth leaves."

ਬਿਗਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਿ ‘ਤੁਮ ਕੌ ਬਖਸ਼ਯੋ, ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਿਤ ਦਾਸਾ ।ਕਰਹੁ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਤੇ ਸੇਵਾ ਆਯੁਧ, ਤੌ ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਹੁਇ ਪਾਸਾ’ ।੧੫।

The Lord said to the Maarvaari Sikh, "you are blessed; you are always doing service to weapons.

With great love you do selfless service to the weapons, with this happiness with always be at your side."

ਰਾਮ ਸਿੰਘ ਤਿਹ ਨਾਮ ਹੁਤੋ ਸੁਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੋ ਬੰਦਨ ਠਾਨੀ ।ਮਾਂਞਨ ਕਰਨਿ ਲਗਯੋ ਸੁਧ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨਿ, ਪੁਨ ਸੁਖ ਲਹਯੋ ਮਹਾਂਨੀ ।੧੬।

The Marvaari Sikh’s name was Ram Singh, after listening to Guru Ji’s word he prostrated before the Guru and

started to clean some more weapons. After cleaning the weapons Ram Singh felt a great amount of happiness.

ਊਚੇ ਥਲ ਟਿਕਾਇ ਸਭਿ ਆਯੁਧ ਪੂਜਾ ਸੌਜ ਮੰਗਾਈ ।ਲਗੇ ਨੁਰਾਤੇ ਸਗਰੇ ਪੂਜਨ ਚੰਡਿ ਕਾਲਕਾ ਮਾਈ ।੧੭।

After the cleaning; all the weapons were placed on a high level and the Sikhs started to worship them with incense.

The festival of Navathri was starting and everyone was worshiping Chandi and Mata (mother) Kaalkaa.

ਚੰਡਿ ਚਰਿੱਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਠ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਹਿਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਅਰੁ ਭਾਖਾ ।ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ ਚੰਦਨ ਕੌ ਚਰਚਤਿ ਫੂਲਮਾਲ ਬਹੁ ਰਾਖਾ ।੧੮।

The recitation of Chandi Chritr was starting in both Sanskrit form (from Markhandya Purana) and in Brij Bhasa (from Dasam Granth).

Incense, ghee-lamps, sandalwood were all used and great wreaths of flowers were put around the weapons.

Translation of Suraj Prakash - Fouth Rut, Chapter 32 (sakhi Shastar Maajane, Dushiraa)

Are you believing there exists no purataan sanatan interpretations of Gursikhi in history even from within Sikh sampraday?

So, what is Sruti?

ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥

akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae ||

In the Word, God established the three worlds.

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

akhar kar kar baedh beechaarae ||

Created from the Word, the Vedas are contemplated.

ਅਖਰ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥

akhar saasathr sinmrith puraanaa ||

From the Word, came the Shaastras, Simritees and Puraanas.

ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ ॥

akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa ||

From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations.

ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਭਰਮਾ ॥

akhar mukath jugath bhai bharamaa ||

From the Word, comes the way of liberation from fear and doubt.

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥

akhar karam kirath such dhharamaa ||

From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma.

ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਅਖਰ ਹੈ ਜੇਤਾ ॥

dhrisattimaan akhar hai jaethaa || In the visible universe, the Word is seen.

~SGGS Ji ang 241

ਅਖਰAkhar, is derived from the Sanskrit Akshara which means"indestructible." Akshara also means "word-syllable." And hence it isa NAAM of the Supreme as SOUND, Shabda Brahman. It is the singlesyllable Ek Akshara, which is the OM, as can be seen from thetranslation of the Bhagavad-Gita.

oḿ ity ekākṣaraḿ brahma

vyāharan mām anusmaran

yaḥ prayāti tyajan dehaḿ sa

yāti paramāḿ gatim oḿ

—the combination of letters oḿ (oḿkāra); iti — thus; eka-akṣaram —the one syllable; brahma — absolute; vyāharan — vibrating; mām — Me(Kṛṣṇa); anusmaran — remembering; yaḥ — anyone who; prayāti —leaves; tyajan — quitting; deham — this body; saḥ — he; yāti —achieves; paramām — the supreme; gatim — destination.

Afterbeing situated in this yoga practice and vibrating the sacred syllableoḿ, the supreme combination of letters, if one thinks of the SupremePersonality of Godhead and quits his body, he will certainly reach thespiritual planets.

~Bhagavad-Gita 8:13

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥

baedh puraan sinmrith sudhhaakhyar ||

The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,

ਕੀਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਆਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥

keenae raam naam eik aakhyar ||

were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 262

Srutiis intimately related to the Shabda Brahman, which is a Word-Aksharawhich vibrates-Spanda. Sruti is that which is heard vibrating fromhigher dimensional reality of Divine Sound Roop. As such it is theessence of Truth and Gyaan of the Vedas. Sruti is that which has beenperceived directly and transmitted to mankind in a form we canunderstand, language. But carried within the words by vibrationalTruth is the Sound Presence of the Divine and the means to DivinePerception and liberation. Only a Satguru can give us the grace toperceive Divine Truth on this level. It can never be understood simplyby reading or reciting the words.

Śruti: श्रुति,IAST: śrúti, lit. "hearing, listening"), often spelled shruti orshruthi, is a term that describes the sacred texts of Hinduism and isone of the three main sources of dharma and therefore is alsoinfluential within Hindu Law. These sacred works span the entirehistory of Hinduism, beginning with some of the earliest known Hindutexts and ending in the early modern period with the laterUpanishads..[2] This literature differs from other sources of HinduLaw, particularly smṛti or “remembered text”, because of the purelydivine origin of śruti. This belief of divinity is particularlyprominent within the Mimamsa tradition. The initial literature istraditionally believed to be a direct revelation of the “cosmic soundof truth” heard by ancient RishisSruti

Fromthis (Unmeṣa-Appearance), Bindú --divine light, Nādá --divine sound--,Rūpá --divine form-- and Rása --divine taste-- soon appear to anembodied soul as a disturbing factor. ~Spanda Karikas Section 1,aphorism 10.

What is the Bindu? Bindu in Sanskrit means"point." It also means "drop." From the Bindu chakra flows the amritnectar which is tasted on the tongue.

ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਚੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਰਸਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥

jihavaa rathee sabadh sachai anmrith peevai ras gun gaae ||

The tongue imbued with the True Word of the Shabad drinks in the Amrit with delight, singing His Glorious Praises.

~SGGS Ji ang 36

Inmetaphysical terms Bindu is held to be the point at which beginscreation and the point at which the unity becomes the many. It is alsodescribed as "the sacred symbol of the cosmos in its unmanifestedstate." Bindu

Thesingle point, "Bindu" is actually where the nirgun becomes thesargun. It is where the 3 states of consciousness can transcendduality and reach the Fourth state.

The Bindu Chakrabestows physical and mental health, vitality andyouthfulness, becauseit produces “the nectar of immortality” (Amrita).This nectar usuallydrops into the Manipura Chakra where it is burnedby the digestive firewithout being fully utilised by the body. Forthis reason the Rishis ofancient times sought a method to collect thisvaluable nectar anddiscovered that the flow of nectar can be arrestedwith the help of thetongue and Vishuddhi Chakra. The tongue containssubtle energy centres,each corresponding to an organ or area of thebody. In the Yogatechniques of Ujjayi Pranayama and Khechari Mudra,the tongue curbs theflow of nectar and stores it in the VishuddhiChakra. Like a homeopathicmedicine it is then redistributed throughoutthe whole body via thesubtle energy channels, where its healingeffects unfold.BinduChakra

ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਸਤਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਖਾਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਆ ਅਘਾਏ ॥੩॥

naam nidhhaan sathaguroo dhikhaaliaa har ras peeaa aghaaeae ||3||

TheTrue Guru has revealed to him the Treasure of the Naam, the Name of theLord; he drinks in the Sublime Essence of the Lord, and is satisfied.

~SGGS Ji ang 29

Accordingto Kashmiri Shaiva teachings on Spanda yoga, the Supreme God has theforms of Light, Sound and Taste. That taste being the amrit nectarobtained by NAAM rasna. And the Lord is experienced because of thespiritual practices of Mantra NAAM jap through the unfolding of sehajsamadhi like fruit that ripens on a tree. Sruti are those Divine Truthswhich have been perceived by the Rshis vibrating in theShabad-Word/Sound of NAAM, mantra, and Guru bani as coming directlyfrom the Shabda Brahman swaroop of nirgun God.

ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾਂ ਮਨਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥ jinaa saas giraas n visarai harnaamaan man manth || Those who do not forget the Lord with each breathand morsel of food whose minds are filled with the Mantra of the Lord'sName

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਸੋਈ ਸੰਤੁ ॥੧॥ dhhann s saeee naanakaa pooran soee santh ||1||

- they alone are blessed; O Nanak, they are the perfect Saints.

~SGGS Ji ang 319

ਵਿਚਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੰਤ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ਗਿਰਾਸੁ ॥

vich aapae janth oupaaeian mukh aapae dhaee giraas ||

He Himself created the beings there, and He Himself places food in their mouths.

~SGGS Ji ang 302

TheSanskrit root of giraas is "Gir, which means primary meaning: "call,""voice," "speech," "word,"; and secondary meaning "swallowing." So theword is reflective of our calling out to the Almighty with hunger,longing to taste the sweetness of the Lord and our taking Him intoourselves as sustenance. This is the profound meaning behind sas girasNAAM simran. NAAM is not only carried on the "sas" of our praaniclifeforce breath, but it is also nourishment to satisfy our sufferinghunger. So we can see clearly by this descriptor how intimately relatedis the concept that God is our father and our mother.

ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਰਖਵਾਲਾ ॥

maeraa piaaraa preetham sathigur rakhavaalaa ||

My Darling Beloved True Guru is my Protector.

ਹਮ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਦੀਨ ਕਰਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ ॥

ham baarik dheen karahu prathipaalaa ||

I am a helpless child-please cherish me.

ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਗੁਰ ਜਲ ਮਿਲਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥

maeraa maath pithaa gur sathigur pooraa gur jal mil kamal vigasai jeeo ||3||

The Guru, the Perfect True Guru, is my Mother and Father. Obtaining the Water of the Guru, the lotus of my heart blossoms forth.

ਮੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਦੇਖੇ ਨੀਦ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥

mai bin gur dhaekhae needh n aavai ||

Without seeing my Guru, sleep does not come.

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਤਨਿ ਵੇਦਨ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਰਹੁ ਲਗਾਵੈ ॥

maerae man than vaedhan gur birahu lagaavai ||

My mind and body are afflicted with the pain of separation from the Guru.

~SGGS Ji ang 94

"Onewhose prabhava i.e., udaya or appearance or manifestation (abhivyakti)comes about from the vibhava i.e. the inner unfoldment of the mass oflight i.e., the divinities of the senses (rasmi punja) (i,e, Sankarawho is manifested by an inner development of the senses). The sense isthat the recognition of the highest Lord is brought about effortlesslyby the practice of perception of the inner nature."TheYoga of Pulsation and Divine Vibration

ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥੮॥੩॥

joth niranthar jaaneeai naanak sehaj subhaae ||8||3||

The Divine Light within is revealed, O Nanak, through this intuitive understanding.

~SGGS Ji ang 55

I would like to move a discussion about Sruti from the archived Devi Pargat thread.

The question asked was, "What is Sruti?"

Sruti is "apaurusheya" which means, "not authored by any man." So the Vedas which were perceived "heard" by the Rshis are not authored by any man. Sruti relates to the mode of perception of Truth by hearing the Divine Sound.

When creation it self has an origin, how do we justify to the claim that the Vedas are anadi? The Paramatman, being eternal, was present even before creation when there was no Brahma. The Paramatman, the Brahman are the Supreme Godhead, is eternal. The cosmos, all sentient beings and insentient objects, emerge from him. The Paramatman did not create them himself : he did so through the agency of Brahma. Through Visnu he sustains them and through Rudra he destroys them. Later Brahma, Visnu, Rudra are themselves destroyed by him.

The present Brahma, when he became hundred years old, will unite with the Paramatman. Another Brahma will appear and he will start the work of creation all over again. The question arises : Does the Paramatman create the Vedas before he brings into being another Brahma? We learn from the Sastras that the Vedas has existed even before creation. In fact, they say, Brahma performed his function of creation with the aid of Vedic mantras. I shall be speaking to you about this later, how he accomplished the creation with the mantras manifested as sound. Vedas Anadi and Apaurusheya

The Srutis teach us the God Himself is the SOUND vibrating atthe heart of all things, this is the Pranava, AUM/OM. And the God who is Sound is called Shabda Brahman. This is why Shabad is so holy, because it is the God Presnce in the form of Sound and Vaak because it has the power/presence of Spanda which means in Sanskrit, "vibration." The sound current is vibrating from the Primal Naad. Nada means "sound, tone or vibration" and is related to the nadis of the body. The Divine Truth vibrates within the subtle energy channels (nadis) on the surti and praan (consciousness and breath) to open the chakrs.

The word Surti "consciousness" is related to the word Sruti, "intensive concentration on hearing/perceiving the Truth in the Divine Sound." Surti comes from Surya meaning "sun" which represents the illumination of consciousness. The illuminating power of consciousness is chidabhasa, that intelligence which shines as a mirror of our inner Light. Praan is breath which is empowered shakti. So by practice of Naam simran we are uniting Shiva-surti (consciousness) with shakti-praan (breath). So Sruti can also mean conscious perception of Divine Truth which is vibrating in the Sound.

ਉਲਟਤ ਪਵਨ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਖਟੁ ਭੇਦੇ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਅਨਰਾਗੀ ॥

oulattath pavan chakr khatt bhaedhae surath sunn anaraagee ||

I turned my breath inwards, and pierced through the six chakras of the body, and my awareness was centered on the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord. ~SGGS Ji ang 333

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael || Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

~SGGS Ji ang 21

In the language of yoga, the purpose or the effect of continuous nada sadhana on the human mind is ananda- extreme bliss. Nada, or sound, is divided into two parts - aahada and anhada, heard and unheard. Heard means that which is possible for you to hear'through the physical ears', and unheard means 'felt', which is thecondition of nada before it is musically shaped and regularised. Then come the shrutis, then swaras, notes, which from time to time have been explained by the masters. Peace of Mind: Shunya to Nada Yoga - Journey of Peace

ਆਦਿ ਅਪਾਰ ਅਲੇਖ ਅਨੰਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਅਭੇਖ ਅਲਖ ਅਨਾਸਾ ॥ आदि अपार अलेख अनंत अकाल अभेख अलख अनासा ॥

The Lord is Primal, Infinite, Account less, Boundless, Deathless, Garbless, Incomprehensible and Eternal.

ਕੈ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤ ਦਏ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਚਾਰ ਰਜੋ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਤਿਹੂੰ ਪੁਰ ਬਾਸਾ ॥ कै सिव सकत दए स्रुति चार रजो तम सत तिहूं पुर बासा ॥ He created Shiva-Shakti, four Vedas and three modes of maya and Pervades in three worlds. ~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC Translation) p. 175

The God's own design was to create the energy and pakriti manifestation of the material universes. The God Himself createdBrahma and the Vedas.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai || Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false.

Those who do not contemplate them are false.

~SGGS Ji ang 1350

Scriptures are not bad, neither are they wrong.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh dheesai breham pasaar ||

The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥ guramukh thrai guneeaaan bisathhaar ||

The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh naadh baedh beechaar ||

The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥

bin gur poorae ghor andhhaar ||1||

Without the Perfect Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness.

~SGGS Ji ang 1270

Analyze this vaak: "guramukh naadh baedh beechaar." The Gurmukh is learning/reflecting on the wise teaching/vichaar which is coming from Naad and Vedas. What is the essence of Vedas whose wise vichaar is contemplated by Gurmukh and which resounds out of the Primal Naad? That essence is Sruti, sacred and timeless Truth which is vibrating in the Vedas, and that which vibrates in the Vedas is the NAAM.

ਇਕ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਟ ਬ੍ਰਤੀ ॥ ਇਮ ਬੇਦ ਉਚਾਰਤ ਸਾਰਸੁਤੀ ॥

Ik naam binaa nahoo kot bratoo|| Im Bed uchaarat Saarsutoo||

Without One Lord’s Name, one cannot be saved even by millions of fasts. The Superb Shrutis (of the Vedas) declare thus.

ਜੋਊ ਵਾ ਰਸ ਕੇ ਚਸਕੇ ਰਸ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇਊ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਕਾਲ ਫੰਧਾ ਫਸਿ ਹੈਂ॥੨੦॥੧੬੦॥ Jooo vaa ras ke chaske ras hain|| Teoo bhool na kaal phandhaa phas(i) hain||20||160||

Those, who are absorbed with the ambrosia of the Name even by Mistake, they will not be entrapped in he snare of death.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) p. 64

Clarification to avoid hostilities

Because my background is Sikhi and my orientation is Hindu I can only provide a Sanatan Sikh Sant Mat viewpoint.

*There are those who wish to boldly claim I am not a Sikh, and that is fine. I am a shish, and I believe there is only One Jyoti Jyot and that every Satguru is Jyoti Jyot of Guru God. However, because of my background I relate Gurbani to Hindu Mat. Now I would like to say that Gurbani is interpreted by established and respected Sikh sampraday and no one should negate those interpretations as false. I do not agree with the Singh Sabhian ideology for example, but I cannot disrespect or invalidate it as an authoritative and legitimate mainstream view. I respect even Tat Khalsa Singhs as having own mahapurash and even sants and brahmgyanis. I do not disrespect any sants views including Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale. Sikhs will speak for Sikhs.

*As now falling into the Hindu category I do not forget my love of Gurbani but my personal understanding and interpretations relate more to sanatan Sant Mat. It is my conviction that Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj belongs to the whole world as boat of mukti and solace from distress and medicine which can heal all the ills of the world. No one has exclusive claim on Guru Sahib to be able to deny His wisdom Light to anybody, regardless of their capacity or incapacity for correct understanding. Every word of Gurbani is holy and sacred. Our human understandings are not. So I make no claim to represent Guru Maharaaj actual teaching as I am not a bramgyaani. I am only doing a study of relational concepts between purataan Sant Mat teaching and Gurbani. I am not a guru, baba, sant, scholar or any qualification. I am just an ordinary human being who loves spiritual teachings.

*Prakash of actual Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, as it is Holy Living Presence of Satguru Ji Jyot belongs only to those SIKHS of the Guru who can respect the proper Maryada and treat the angs of Guru Sahib with appropriate respect and not lapse into beadbi. I am not promoting in any way that Hindu's should have any right to take body of Shri Guru Granth Sahib into temples which have not been set up for primacy of respecting the Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, such as setting beside murthis. At the same time, no Sikhs have any right to tell Hindus that Shri Guru Granth Sahib teaching is not also for them or have rudeness or intolerance that Hindu's are going to understand and interpret and relate Sikhi concepts to Hindu Mat. Everyone is at own spiritual level. You cannot hate a child for not having the understanding of a college professor. So please, if you see some glaring misunderstanding on my part, feel free to comment respectfully and share with the forum your own personal views and correction. But don't be unhappy if I am not compelled to accept your view either.

The world should live in tolerance and harmony and not sectarian exaggerations such as Allah NAAM belonging only to Muslims or thinking Gurbani has not traditionally also been richly interpreted since purataan days from within Hindu Mat.

Thank you.

Gurbani gives a clear cut message to a sikh what he is to believe in.A sikh is a believer in what their

Gurus have instructed.A sikh should respect belief system of other humnan beings..But for a sikh Gurbani's

message is the only one to follow.We are forbidden to believe in duality.

Are you really quoting Kabir bhagat bani to denounce sanatana Dharma? Are you serious? Kabir was a Vaishnav Ram Naami who had a Hindu Guru. Forbidden to believe in duality? Veer ji you are stuck in it. Only brahmgyaan mahapurash who have Turiya consciousness are freed from duality. And yes, quite clearly bhagat Kabir Ji is discussing duality in the pauri. But the corrective TRUTH of Guruji's gyaan in including Kabir bani hinges on whether or not Sanatana Dharma is the religion of pandits who don't know God or whether it also includes sants and Mahapurush who do know God, such as the author of the bani, Kabir Ji Himself.

ਹਮਰਾ ਝਗਰਾ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਊ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

hamraa jhagraa rahaa na ko-oo.

I have no quarrel with anyone.

Kabir Ji may have no quarrel with anyone because He has the bramgyaan to love them equally, even as He is spiritually advanced enough to correct the errors of duality consciousness and limitations of their understanding and worship.

But you certainly have a quarrel with Hindus as you seem to think that Hindu people and spirituality is only something evil, corrupt and ugly. This is what you portray. This is what you are constantly criticizing. But does it occur to you that the things which I have been trying to discuss are the Sruti Divine Truths and not the man-made political corruptions? Guruji, Gurbani and least of all a Vaishnav bhagat are not condemning that as you are veer ji. Please reflect what mistake you're making.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਛਾਡੇ ਦੋਊ ॥੧॥

pandit mulaaN chhaaday do-oo. ||1|| rahaa-o.

I have abandoned both the Pandits, the Hindu religious scholars, and the Mullahs, the Muslim priests. ||1||Pause||

Did I ever say a pandit or scholarship or priests of any religion were a guide to put faith in? No! Then I have no disagreement with this bani. This bani reflects highest truth. But it is not saying what you are distorting it to say which is a radical rejection of Sanatana Dharma philosophy and spiritual teaching which is all through this bani.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੀਆ ॥

pandit mulaaN jo likh dee-aa.

Whatever the Pandits and Mullahs have written,

ਛਾਡਿ ਚਲੇ ਹਮ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੀਆ ॥੩॥

chhaad chalay ham kachhoo na lee-aa. ||3||

I reject; I do not accept any of it. ||3||

You see Jio, Sruti isn't the written opinions of men. It is Divine Truth vibrating into sansaar from the Shabda Brahman in the form of mantras. So that is your first mistake in misapplying this bani to Sanatana Dharma.

It's an open discussion forum. It's a post about Devi. Why can I not share my own views and opinions? Do you think only accepted interpretation should be yours? And all others should be treated with hostility, personal attacks and banning?

Do you really think in this atmosphere anyone of you is showing some beautiful light of Gurbani teaching to contradict what you disagree with? You aren't even respecter of persons pulling in examples of some RSS people's opinions. You goal is to discredit, disrespect and silence me. But by very nature of this forum is discussion, sharing different views, learning, respecting, tolerating, and being a human community.

What kind of religion is teaching to behave to others as ALL OF YOU ARE DOING? Surely not Guru Nanak Dev Ji panth.

And also you should know, just as Yuga avatars are linked with Guru Nanak Dev Ji, every true Jyot of authentic Satguru, and not only 10 physical swaroops of Guru Sahibaan are all ONE.

And Why oh why is thatarticle linked here, to this debate if not further evidence of yourincredibly distorted HATRED and misunderstanding of Hindu religion?

I never commented anything. I am just quoting. I don't hate hindus oranybody. We are debating here about your misunderstanding of Sikhreligion.

And some guy's rant about onions in the langar, which personally I care nothing about has something to do with correcting my personal misunderstanding? It had everything to do with a completely unreleated linkage to some RSS guy because you wanted to derail that Sanatan = RSS. Can't you at least be honest with your own deliberate propagandistic misinformation veer ji?

If you understand sikhi of Guru Nanak, you won't change yourfaith just because you felt something visiting a Saint . If you believein Guru, you don't need anybody else. You signature says it well. ForSikh, The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru isPaarvati and Lakhshmi. You don't need to go to other mais or demi gods.

You can believe or blame anything you want. But you are not having a discussion with me about my personal experiences with Devi or what they could mean in a thread derailing about the RSS and onions. And none of you are explaining anything while attacking, derailing, promoting hostility, talk of banning, sending PMs accusing Hindu women as whores, etc. So stop pretending that you all are teaching me the beautiful truths of Gurbani in this discussion. You most definitely are not.

Harjas ji, pure truths of spirituality are in every major religion. Itis not sole proprietorship of Hinduism or Sanatan Dharama or Sikhism.That is the reason writings of Muslim faqirs are there along withVaishnav saints (which your RSS brother does not like and would love todelete).

If you really believed Gurbani teaching, then the RSS are your brothers too. I don't have any problem with Baba Farid bani. Why is yet another totally unrelated issue someone else has become representative of what I personally believe and support? RSS is a political organization. It does not speak for or represent Hindu Dharma even while it is believing in Hindu Dharma. Certainly RSS has good and bad like any other political organization, and perhaps in some things take the extremist view. But that is not my view. That is not representing the "Hindu" view. So what exactly is your problem and why do you think mentioning it is anything more than aother propagandistic way to link what my beliefs and discussion are to RSS? What you are doing is deliberately creating a false associatoin because you can't discuss the points themselves. It's not even a debate. I'm sharing a view point. Can you at least value that without distorting and trashing as someone from RSS latest bugaboo? I have to tell you though veer ji, the Onions thing made me laugh out loud. But it's shameful really what you are negating and how you are negating it. I will do ardas that one day you understand I was not here to convert or hurt sentiments of own Sikhs who I love, but to share that our relationship is not completely trashed to hell. And all you can manage is trash more and more. That's really shameful. My beliefs aren't hurting anybody. It's really sad that Sikhs are so hateful of anything Hindu, at mere mention of relationship it is taken as most derogatory insult. And in truth reflects that Sikhs in general really do have the most trashy and disgusting opinion of Hindus. That has at least been my life experience. And not one of you can deny it.

By the way, why you only qoute Gurbani where vedas are mentioned orHindu terminology is used. Shabads from Muslim Saints and from Guruswith Islamic tone are totally invisible to you. Your version of puretruths of spirituality contain only Hindu/Vaishnav names of Lord andSnatam Dharma only.

I am not a Muslim. How can I speak for Muslim teaching? How am I invalidating Islamic Panth to point out clear relationship between Sikhi and Sanatana Dharma? Show me exactly where in Islamic scripture or hadiths it teaches anything about devatay and das avtaray where it doesn't condemn as pagan and demonic? Don't just make broad claims veer ji. If you believe I am doing an injustice to Islam, please feel free to share with us all using citations we can all cross-verify. It's a discussion forum after all and I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to learn from you that point of view where I have neglected some other philosophical teaching in Gurbani. Because merely citing tuuks which TALK about Thuraks and their religious pracitices is not the same thing as teaching pure truths of spirituality. But I am not denying that every religion has some truths of Pure Spirituality because I already believe that the God is All-pervading and every living being has an atma.

WhyLaalsingh are the opinions of a member of RSS expressed on a SanghParivaar forum now propagandistically blasted all over Sikh forums?

And what really is wholesale copy and paste from hindu.net to a Sikh forum?

It was an article which listed many citations from Hindu scriptures and traditional stories about Rishis to explain that Vedantic teaching about varna system has become utterly corrupted. So it is not fair or right to keep attacking Sanatana Dharma teaching as being equal to those corruptions. So the article was in response to questions and also to your totally off-the-wall thing about onions. I mean why can't we at least have intelligence in discussion? Your article cited some guys opinions totally unrelated to the topic. My article was documented citations anybody can cross-reference that was on-point answering the objections to Sanatana Dharma being evil unrighteousness due to teachings of caste.

Truly Hindu's whose beliefs are deliberately distorted are hated and despised by Sikhs and not at all welcome.

No Sikh hates true Hindus, but they don't like misinterpretation frompeople like you and Tiwari, who come on Sikh forum or Gurudwara andpreach that Sikhi is a mere sect of Sanatan Dharam or Harminder Sahibis a Shivalaya.

Again, your intentions are clear to link me with some extremist message from some RSS guy I never even heard about and his personal opinions about langar. Sanatana Dharma is actually the whole world's original religion, so it's not just putting Sikhs there, except to state that Sikhi has respected and preserved the original DIVINE TRUTHS. Also it is obvious that Sikhs are Hindustanis and come from desi culture and are properly "Hindus' while having own sampradaya. Moreover so much Gurbani contains so much teaching direct from Puranas and Upanishads how can you think it is unrelated?

I never said Harimandir was a Shivalaya. But I respect that is the man's point of view. How does it hurt Harimandir Sahib? It's obvious that Harimandir Sahib is Hari Mandir, and formerly had murthis of Lord Vishnu, Krishna and Chandi Devi. So you may abuse my opinion but you can't erase own sanatan history.

Did you just not cite a single page website on udasis by an unknownauthor as some kind of evidence of what Udasis are? What is that if notshoddy scholarship?

It was sufficient to answer that in udasis own words their sampradaya founder is Baba Sri Chand. Did you want a research paper?

No, that's people getting tired of wading through those gigantic essaysthat you call posts in response to their questions and then learningthat you have completely ignored their questions and the tuks that havebeen provided that contradict your views and just posted more of thesame.

First a single page citation is not enough, and now it is too much information. How can I ignore questions deliberately when, once again I am being lambasted on all sides by several posters at once even while I'm trying to have a discussion about Devi and powerful symbolism of Her Sarbloh Shakti and how it relates to vibration of NAAM Gurmantra. This thread is NOT about attack everything Harjas writes and then blame for not responding to every stupid derailment. If you provide tuuks and interpretation which contradicts mine, fine! That is what a discussion is. We are presenting different viewpoints and learning from each other. It is not a boxing match where you attack another viewpoint to trash, invalidate and discredit it and say, "I won!"

Do you really think posting viewpoint of Tat Khalsa ideology is going to make Udasis change their mind? No. Nobody is going to change their mind. I don't expect you all to change your mind. What I'm trying to do is show you another viewpoint than the degraded, hateful and low opinions you have about Sanatana Dharma teaching, and the BROTHERHOOD relationship between the highest spiritual teachings of Sanatana Dharma and Sikhi. Now, how in the world can I show you the Islamic or Sufi views when I am not involved with that Panth or in-depth study their viewpoints?

And by the way, Akaal_Das may be an idiot, but don't accuse him ofalleging that Hinduism teaches that women are whores - he provided areference from the Manu Smrti that describes just that.

Do you really believe that Manu Smriti reference is actually saying Hindu women are whores and that is not a deliberately distorted portrayal of what Manu Smriti is saying in order to CALL HINDU WOMEN WHORES AND MOCK BOTH HINDU'S AND HINDU RELIGION?

Are you really that stupid? Or just pretending because any insult and degrading portrayal of Hindu women is acceptable to you so that you stoop so low as to defend those comments of his? And you call yourself a Sikh of Guru Sahib?

Akaal_das writes:

We Sikhs not ur types belive in one god that is Akal Purkh . He isdoesn't need Brahma , Vishnu and Shiva. Akal is crator is the creatorhe is the preserver and he is destructor. Hindu gods are just like Roman gods MYTH JUST MYTH . Romans have Hercules these Kanjars created Hanuman lol., Khalsa means Hukumraan the ruler born to rule , born to establish its own nation.

Guru Hargobind Sahib ji Said to mughals Mai na inko baaz dehu Baaz Taaj sab inse lehu.

Congress did what Hindus wanted . It was Hindu sponsor genocide . Theserat worshippers dont deserve independence they all shoild be made slavejust what Mughals and Britishers did. HINDUISM is the biggest threat to Sikhi thaks to ur kind. We Dont need ur fake devte or Sanatan bullshit . read below that is called Hinduism is bullshitism.

HINDUISM SAYS WOMEN ARE LIKE WHORES BY NATURE

Hinduism's holy dharmasastra teaches that women are like whores andsluts by nature like the bimbo goddess Indrani (ref. RigVeda 10:86:6.):

How many more times do we have to go over the same ground again untilyou get it? Sikhs worship the primal power behind all of these forms.

But so do Hindus. That's what I keep pointing out in Hindu Scriptures. The Sanatan teachings are using the symbolic imagery of devatay and avtaray as well as explaining the unity of the Sarguna with the nirguna while clearly teaching the Absolute Primacy of the Nirgun Primal Power. Why don't YOU get it? Hindu Mat is NOT contradicting Gursikhi. Gursikhi is actually using the same Puranic stories to promote the original Sanatan message.

Why do you insist on ignoring, as laalsingh has already pointed out,the Semitic names of God that are mentioned in Gurbani? Do you thinkAllah in Gurbani refers to the tyrant in the Quran who endorses thekeeping of women as sexual captives or the murder of non-Muslims?

I don't ignore them. I already told you I accept Sufis as part of own heritage of sanatana Dharma, although modernly their bhakti sampradaya has been infiltrated and corrupted by Wahabi exremist views. It is abundantly clear and undeniable that Gurbani is talking about a spiritual unity of True Religion which is based on Love and Justice. HOWEVER, show me ONE, SINGLE ISLAMIC RELIGIOUS CONCEPT IN GURBANI TEACHING THE WAY I CAN SHOW YOU DOZENS OF VEDANTIC CONCEPTS. Because the truth is, while Gurbani respects Islam it does not actually teach anything from it. It is based on yoga of Gurmantra and bhakti sankirtan and obtaining mukti from cycle of reincarnation. What exactly is this ignoring? Ram, Rahim, are what? sargun NAAMS of NIRGUN GOD. Did I ever deny? Why make a false argument about nothing? Talk about weak.

Sikhi, like any religion, reinterpreted words that were currently in existence at the time. Read Trilochan Singh's Sikhism and 6 Hindu Systems which goes into depth on this issue by investigating Bhai Gurdas Ji's criticism of the 6 darshanas of Hindu philosophy.

ENTIRE structure of belief and teachings are based on philosophical concepts which are sanataan. It's not a matter of a few words here and there like the Parsi and Arabic or Islamic terms. I mean seriously, are you denying Gurbani talks about Yuga avataras and Devatay?

You are the mirror image of Bahadur Ali, the Shia fool who thought thatSikhi was a school of his cult because of the mentions of Allah, Rahim,and so on, and because of the similarities in ideas between Sufiinterpretations of the nature of Allah.

Since I have never read one word of this fellow I can't say anything about that. But I'm pretty sure I don't belong to any "cult" as I'm pretty well ostracised by Sikhs. Moreover, my views are not even something new as purataan Sikhi included a very rich and vibrant historical sanataan heritage. Even paintings, sculptures, not to mention shared deep and beautifully wise philosophies. I hardly think the Spanda vibrational mantra teachings are some kind of foolishness, and most definitely shared with Gurbani concepts.

For all the accusations of us being narrow minded, it if you who arethe one who is completely blind to that part of Gurbani that does notfit into the tiny and strange box in which you try to limit Gurbani.

I'm definitely NOT limiting Gurbani. In fact, I believe Gurbani contains so many mystical truths we canot comprehend them all because containing Jyoti Jyot, the infinite resides in those teachings. Neither am I willfully blind to deny or distort the beautiful ancient purataan concepts which clearly are there or hate their symbolic reflections in sanatan Devi, devatay and avtaray.

We are disagreeing with you because we hate Hindus. It has nothing todo with the fact that your arguments are pathetic and your views arebased on the most flimsy fifth rate information.

Actually I am making an effort in most cases to cite scriptural sources directly and link for others to actually investigate themselves. Not only that but I am speaking from personal experience as well. How is this now despised as pathetic and fifth rate sources? And all over philosophical discussions which every other post degenerate into this kind of hostility, asking for bans, telling me to leave or sending PMs alleging Hinduism teaches women are whores?

But that's not anti-Hindu hatred?

So you are saying their is no alteration or deliberate de-emphasis of sanatan philosophical concepts in Gurbani?

Is that why Jog doesn't really mean Jog? Why Krishan, Ramachandra, Gopal, Govind, Murali, Mukunda, the Lord of Lakshmi, the savior of Dropadi all only mean NIRGUNA?

Just like Ekonkar doesn't mean the Pranava even as the Ek Akshara Shabad Brahman is vibrating from the Primal Nada. Okay.

Xylitol writes:

"If this was a former Sikh practice andmodernly changed, then it does in fact reflect deliberate rejection oftradition of the past."

WRONG.

garlic is banned from langer by rahit b/c it is heavily kaam promoting.See Gyani Thakur Singh's katha on rahit. Sikhs now use garlic in langarsimply b/c they are addicted to taste. They care little about rahit.Harjas Kaur, not everything is part of some massive conspiracy. Thegolden temple's langar rahit was changed recently, I've heard toaccomodate some none-Sikh (but just "born sikh") actress's desire to doseva. Last time I went people were peeling mountains of garlic.

Hmmm. Let's look at it again.

"butwhat is traditional and what was original and what is now beingmodified out of ignorance politically to create more artificialseparations from Hindus which did not formerly exist."

So, you're saying that the Dal Khalsa morcha against every purataan and sanataan sampradaya to protect the Sikh identity, even as it threatens violence; the bid to separate Sikhs from Hindus legally in the Delhi High Court despite being Hindustanis; Debate over Nanakshai Calender or the fact that the thread has been completely derailed by commentary taken from some Sangh Parivaar discussion forum and now propagandistically linked to every Sikh website or derailing ACCUSATIONS that Sanatana Dharma is about ABUSES OF THE CASTE SYSTEM.

"NEW DELHI: A PIL in the Supreme Court said Sikhs wanted to break free from the perception that their religion was intrinsically connected to Hinduism in every activity." Sikhs Petition

But this isn't about Sikhs having a PHOBIA and ABHORRENCE for anything remotely related to sanatan heritage? Interesting. Why then did not a single one of you respond to more intelligent discussion I was trying to post earlier about Sound and Vibration in bani as being related to sanatan philosophical and yoga teachings? Because onions and caste system has more to do with Devi? Or because Devi and the sanatan spirituality of Naam mantra is related to Hindu Dharm and therefore must be attacked as being representative of every evil and silly thing imaginable?

No, it's too stupid to be an actual conspiracy. But it is reflecting a definite hatred, intolerance and demonization of Hinduism and sanatan spiritual philosophy, absolutely. Buddhists have the exact same heritage of coming from sanatan concepts and Dharma teaching. They acknowledge relationship while never despairing their uniqueness and independence or suing Courts or making alterations of purataan rehat or whitewashing murals and denying everything to younger generation to create so much antagonism and abusive intolerance. No one can even talk normally without every other post lapsing into rants totally unrelated to the topic simply to assert Sanatana Dharma teaching is some evil demonic horror of the world that Guruji rescued the world from. And nothing like that is the truth. You aren't even contrasting the Sanatan teachings from the cultural and man-made distorted ones. It would be if like every other sentence where you were describing Sikhism I was comparing it with the very worst excesses and stupidities of the most unenlightened people.

You are all afraid of actual discussion of meaningful points where we could learn and share different philosophical viewpoints. So much that is beautiful and related I would love to share with you. I didn't come to this post to have beautiful philosophical teachings be compared to someone's rant about onions in the langar or distorted abuses of the caste system. We can discuss that ad infinitem. But you all demonize sanatana Dharma as actually being the teaching of the worst excesses and not even being open to see how the original teachings became corrupted and how countless sants tried to reform and address those corruptions.

And you are really foolish if you deny that colonial past of India contributed to institutionalizing a racist caste system largely based on skin color and with admitted alterations and distortions of Manu Smritis to create that as a foundation for Indian Law in place of a Christian Bible so the British legal system could be claimed as coming from Indians themselves. And how long have people suffered under this corrupted, bribery thugism so-called legal system? And are you saying that too is not also large measure responsibility of British? Are you saying that the historic proof of colonized and exploited communities do not bear modern-day scars of the oppressive heritage of the past?

One thing we should reflect on, how much hatred of the rich and intellectual heritage of sanatana Dharma has been distorted to be a source of shame for Indian people all over the world, when at the same time period other nations were raping, pillaging, involved in slave trade? Yet Indian subcontinent is condemned while Western world is glamorized as the beacon of progress. The truth is different. That article from Hindu.net which is opposed, even as the article lifted from Sangh parivaar forum was not opposed said some very important facts which can be cross-verified. That's why I linked it. ot only did it have scriptural quotes, but it had a quote from Ambedkar Ji from his Court statement saying the exact same thing, Vedic tradition has become distorted.

If you can't accept Ambedkar Ji's own word on the subject then what could I ever tell you? I did not deny caste corruption is a big problem. I don't agree with abuses based on caste. I am believing in Mata Amritanandamayi Organization and Ramakrishna Mission, both are huge, well established sampraday which have no exclusion or barrier based on caste. I mean Amma is Herself a great saint from shudra caste. Why are you derailing my discussion with attacks about caste? I already cited to you what I personally believe is the most correct teaching and it comes directly from Gurbani.

Suppose Hindu's began to believe in the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji about caste as being Dharmic Truth, which I do, for example. Why would you not encourage that as being a source of transformation of the evils and corruptions of the past? Wy would you prefer to freeze frame all Hindu religions as being only the worst so you can keep your ugly caricature of it? Let me dare say this much as well, since I know it will be another source of ridicule but, you are all talking so boldly about caste in order to invalidate my discussions. But here is the actual reality. I have drunk charan water from Shudra Guru. Would you have done the same?

So, accept, reject, blame, revile, personally I would love to see intelligent discussion and debate instead. But please don't keep derailing over point about caste system. It's just ridiculous. I have drunk both Khande ki pahul amrit from shared bata and foot wash from Shudra caste Guru. So please, you can trash me as anything you like. But you cannot trash me as a representative of abuses of caste system or believing in prejudices. Thank you.

"udasi's today beleive that Baba Sri Chand started udasi samprdaye? lol.recheck your facts. if you beleive that you know nothing about them."

Udasi is a religious, ascetic sadhu sect, which considers itself a denomination of Sikhism focused on the teachings of its founder, Sri Chand (1494-1643), son of Guru Nanak Dev, the founder and the first Guru of Sikhism. Later, Baba Gurditta, son of Guru Hargobind and father of Guru Har Rai...Udasi, comes from the root word 'udas' which means detachment, renunciation, and, unlike some Sikh groups, they do not prohibit shaving or cutting one's hair. Accordingly, not all Udasi males have beards and long hair, as other Sikh, belonging Khalsa do [4]. Udasi mahants have maintained accurate records of the chain of succession from Sri Chand. Udasi

The Udasi sampradaya (tradition) was founded by Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj, the elder son, and sikh (disciple) of Sri Sadguru Nanak Dev Ji. Its adherents not only revere Sri Guru Granth Sahib, but have in their treasure-house of sacred texts, Sanskritic scriptures such as the Veda, the Shastras, the Puranas, the Itihasas viz. the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, etc., along with works associated with the Gurus. To Udasis, also known as Nanak-putras (sons of Nanak), Guru Nanak Dev Ji is none other than the avatar of Sri Vishnu, and Baba Sri Chand Ji of Bhagavan Shiva. While the purpose of both was to protect the sanatan or eternal Dharma (moral and cosmic Order), the particular mission of Baba Ji was to spread the message of his Guru and father, Nirankar-svarup (the form of the Formless) Jagadguru Nanak Dev Ji. Thus, in the spirit of their founder, the scholarly Udasis were the missionaries of Gurmat.

The Udasis engage in pancadevopasana, the worship of a combination of five deities or the five qualified facets of the Brahman, namely Shiva, Vishnu, Surya, Durga, and Ganesh, and their philosophy is that of monistic or advaita Vedanta as popularised by Adi Sankaracarya. Amongst Udasis, some are celibate ascetics, others householders, some are jatadhari (dreadlocked) ash-covered Sadhus, and others have no distinctive appearance. Not only are they scholars of Sanskrit, their particularly adept in Ayurveda, the tradition Indian medicine. When the Khalsa Singhs were involved in war against the Mughals, it was the Udasis that kept the Guru's tradition alive by becoming custodians of the Gurdwaras. Udasi.org

nirmala's mission was to learn vedic texts, not that these had any knowledge that wasnt in Aad or Dasam Guru, but not to represent gurmat as an ang of hindu religion.

Why were they becoming Sanskrit scholars and learning Vedic texts if not to gain knowledge which was outside of Gurubani? The problem with "representing Gurmat as an ang of Hindu religion is a modern construction. Here is the Udasi view directly off their website.

one may wonder who the Udasis are and whether they are confused. There are three possibilities of explanation:

1. either they do not know whether they follow 'Hindu-ism' or 'Sikh-ism', or

2. they have taken parts of both, or

3. it is in fact the world who is mistakenly confused by seeing things in black and white and it is the Udasis who, amongst other legitimate sampradayas going back to the Gurus, truly follow and understand the teachings of the Great Sovereign Masters. It is not they who have problems of identity, but everyone else. Their reality depicts a diminishing truth, while the rest of the modernist world has been unknowingly duped into the duality of these two artificial and until recently, non-existent religious categories viz. 'Hindu-ism' and 'Sikh-ism' created by British Colonialists.

This is not how it used to be. After all the suffix ism which is the crux of our problem of understanding the truth as it stood before the time of the Raj, conceptually and linguistically belongs to the Western world, and is alien to the traditional Indian mind. To understand the reality of religiosity before the intellectual impact of the British Raj in Panjab, and thus the world of the Udasis and other puratan (ancient) traditions, one must understand it from its own perspective, not from the foreign concepts and categories of western thought. Udasi.org

Regardless of your personal opinion about Udasis, they are a historical purataan sampradaya which has blended Sanatan and Sikhi concepts from their origination. It is not the Udasi Sampradaya which has a problem with identity, but the British influence which forced a separation of a more inclusive, universal Sanatan, within the body of ancient tradition, interpretation of Guru Sahibaan own Mat.

"so the treatment of shudras in the other 3 yugs is still dharma in this yug?"

The treatment of shudras is a politically contrived misconception owing much of it's animosity to the deliberate racism of the British Raj. Shudra as traditionally conceived was a classification according to vasanas and temperament.

Whilst the origins of the other varnas can be traced to Proto-Indo-European words, the word is translated as the Sanskrit word for color of the soul. In the Shanti Parva of Mahabharata, it is said that there was only one Varna - Brahmana - in the beginning. The other Varnas were formed depending on the dominance of the three Gunas - Sattwa, Rajah and Tamah- in one's self...

The etymology of the word is not certain. One theory is that Shudra comes from the word śuchāt dravanam (शुचात् द्रवनम्) [citation needed] a person who is in suffering/mourning/pain, who needs mental or physical cleansing. This theory is however intended to demean the significance of the Varna system. Shudra was a common Sanskrit word, any person regardless of his/her varna to could be addressed as shudra. An implied version of this common form has become traditionally associated with the varna system. It is also mentioned in the purusha-sukta of Rigveda where shudras are said to have emanated from the feet of the lord (पद्भ्याम् शूद्र् अजायत padbhyām śūdro ajāyata)[citation needed]. A very symbolic statement indeed. It denotes that the three other varnas which made up the parts of purusha (पुरुश, the lord) were supported by the shudras as the feet form the supporting system of the entire body.[citation needed] This can be understood clearly from the fact that the shudras were basically farmers, potters, cobblers etc (anything the other three varnas would not do viz, teaching, fighting and trade)[citation needed] and hence they formed a support system for the entire society. Unfortunately, direct misinterpretations of these vedic hymns have caused a lot of unrest and confusion in the modern Hindu society. Vedas do not establish supremacy of any varna over the other nor do they say head of the Lord is superior to his feet. Sri Krishna in Bhagavad Gita clarifies (Chapter 4 verse 13) states "catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah tasya kartaram api mam viddhy akartaram avyayam" meaning that the fours varnas were established based on one's karma/duties. Shudra

Indiansociety has consisted since ancient times, of several thousands oftribal and occupational groups, castes or communities called Jāti. The phrase "Hindu Caste System" mixes up two different schemes - the Varna (class/group)^[3], theoretical scheme based on idealized Brahminical traditions and some medieval codes, and the Jāti system prevalent in Indian society since historical times.

Faced with a bewildering array of thousands of autonomous andhierarchically fluid communities (Jatis), the late 19th century Britishcolonial administration decided to categorise and rank the entire Hindupopulation of India by placing each of the Jatis within the theoreticalVarna scheme for the purposes of the decennial Census, and ostensiblyfor eventual administrative convenience. The 1901Census was led by Herbert Hope Risley,an ICS officer with strong pet racial beliefs about the Indianpopulation. Simultaneous with this first ever codification into secularlaw of Varna-based caste identities during the British empire,communities (Jatis) sought to place themselves on higher levels ofVarna categories. On the other hand, most of the Jatis grouped into thelower caste categories rejected the Varna categories as they found thisarbitrary classification unreasonable, unfair and unacceptable, as itdid not reflect the reality.

This newly frozen materialization of castecreated a growing resentment firstly against the system itself andsecondly against the Brahmins, who were seen to be the beneficiaries ofthe arrangement which now officially anointed their place at the top ofthe social hierarchy. The revolt of the Justice Party and Periyar in the south, by the Maharaja of Kolhapur and the outstanding scholar Dr Ambedkarin western India against this, in the early decades of the twentiethcentury, has had a profound, long-lasting impact on the Indian societyand politics, which continues to this date.The British Colonial melding of the ubiquitous and fluid Jati withthe theoretical and rigid Varna scheme starting from the 1901 Censushas resulted in many people erroneously assuming that the entire Hindusociety was organized according to the Varna scheme since ancienttimes. In fact, India's diverse population viewed the artificiallyrigid scheme as unjust and arbitrary. Modern Indian society hasstruggled with this flawed, inflexible imposition of caste implementedby the British since the 1901 Census. Caste System

"and we should follow the rightouesness that has been the example?"

Righteousness is righteousness whatever the age, whatever the culture, race of religion. Even a little child or a dog knows the difference between good and evil. Why are you deliberately trying to confuse the terms to equate Hindu Dharm with deliberate evil? You can't see your' own illogical and deliberate propagandistic distortion?

"what about dharma that represents unrighteousness? is that eternal?"

There is no Dharma which is unrighteous. Please do your own study before making blatently irrational statements. Dharma as a term MEANS RIGHTEOUSNESS. How can that which represents righteousness also mean unrighteousness? By clever misrepresentation of facts you make the conclusionary assumption that Dharma represents unrighteousness in order to stigmatize and demonize Hindu religion and Hindus.

Krishna, born in a shudra (cow-boy) family not onlybecame a kshatriya by proper education at Sandipana rishi's ashrama andlater a king, but was also a great philosopher and author ofBhagvad-Gita. He was also accorded the status of incarnation of GodVishnu by the Hindus. Krishna was born in a shudra family of milkmen.In around 1000 A.D. the Hindus believed that Krishna was born to shudraparents, and this fact has been recorded by al-Biruni, a MuslimHistorian who visited India in about 1000 A.D. Al-Biruni mentions, "Vasudeva (Krishna) was a descendant of a Shudra family." (Alberuni'sIndia,tr. by Sachau, Edward, Indialog Publications, New Delhi, 2003,p.69). Vyasa, illegitimate son of an unmarried fisherwoman, became agreat sage and author of the Mahabharata. Ratnakara, basically a hunterand criminal who looted and killed highway travelers and was fromobscure and low origins became the sage Valmiki, adopted brahmanicalprofession of teaching, taught Lava and Kusha and authored theRamayana. The Supreme Court majority Judgment in the Indira Shawney(Mandal) case also accepts this fact on Page 636, AIR 93, If what ishanded down to us as history is to be believed, then the epicMahabharata was penned by Vyasa, who was born to a fisherwoman;Ramayana was authored by Valmiki, who belonged to a tribe forced tolive by depredations. The immortal poet Kalidasa's ancestry is notknown. Thus heredity was not an obligate factor for status for theancient Hindus.

Another such example from the Chandogya Upanishad is of Satyakama.When Satyakama approached Haridrumata Gautam to take admission in hisschool (gurukula), the teacher asked his father's name, lineage etc.Satyakama did not know and went to ask his mother. She told him, "Mychild, I do not know of what lineage you are. I who was engaged asparicharini (maid-servant, attendant) attending to many people got youin my youth. Having been such, I could not know what lineage you are."(Chandogya Upanishad, 4.4.2) Satyakama returned to Gautama Rishi andtold him his mother's words. This made the Rishi satisfied and happy,because he thought truthfulness was the most essential character of anyone who wanted to become a Brahmana, and he imparted education to thechild. Satyakama was known after her mother's name Jabala. Therefore weknow him today ad Satyakama Jabala. (Chandogya Upanishad, 4.4.1-5).This story clearly proves that belonging to a respectable family wasnot a prerequisite for getting education for Hindus in ancient India.Here the boy did not know even the name of his father. In modernterminology, he was a bastard child. If we consider the present dayyardsticks, social status of children of unmarried mothers is thelowest. But such a stigmatizing notion did not exist in the Vedicperiod...

The south Indian king Prolaya was born in a shudrafamily, and he declared that he considered himself fortunate that heborn out of the feet of God, "Punsah puranasya padadudirnam varnamyamahu kalikalavaryam." (Kunal, p. xi) Many smriti texts have comparedthis king Prolaya with God Varahavatara because he defended the nationfrom the foreigners, "Anshavatirno bhagavan ivadyah Prolakshitishovasudham vibharti." (Kunal, p. xi).

Thus it is clear that during the ancient period, the Brahmana-hoodand kshatriya-hood were acquired by study and other qualities and notby birth. The famous Sanskrit saying states, Janmaan jayate shudrah,karmana Brahmanah. Meaning everyone is born shudra (low), it is byeffort that one becomes a Brahmana. This fact is also supported by DrAmbedkar's statement quoted by the Supreme Court in the majorityjudgment in the Indira Shawney Case. Dr B. R. Ambedkar noted that castedid not exist during the ancient periods and that the class whichexisted was varna and not caste. (AIR, 1993 SC p. 549-550, para 76 ofJudgment). Were Hindu social classes (or varnas) hereditary in actual practice?

Read this:

"You missed the part in the article where he said no other prasadam anywhere contains onions and garlic..."

and

"Thereis a tradition of goat meat langar among Shaktas following jhatkasacrifice for Kali puja and Aghouri Sadhus practice cannibalism. Thismeans something? The traditional practice in every Indian templeexcludes onions and garlic."

The article was talking about prasadam. "The traditional practice (OF SERVING PRASADAM) in every Indian temple excludes onions and garlic."

There fixed for clarification. Happy now?

FYI: I linked a video earlier which clearly shows Temple Langar in Kerala state at Amritapuri. Here, let me show it again. The word langar is Persian, so you won't see that word describing the vegetarian free kitchens of Hindu temples that serve prasadam. But you are mistaken if you think such practice is exclusive to Sikhs.

Langar is the practice, common to a number of Asian religions, of community eating. Langar

You go on following your santana dharma or any dharma. We have no objection to that. We should respect your choice.

Please do not try to foist your beliefs on us here.We follow sikhismand though we respect all other religions but are not interested tolearn in detail about their beliefs.

The title of the discussion thread here is " Devi Pargat By Guru Gobind Singh?" So the topic thread naturally relates to my beliefs. I have alreadyspoken with the forum moderator and I am welcome to post here providedI follow the forum rules and treat others and these issues withrespect. Now, if you're not interested to learn in detail, then don't read answers to questions others have asked.

Moreover, I cannot foist my own beliefs onto a subject which isintimately related to my own beliefs as including subject matteroverlapping sanatan teaching. You follow a very narrowinterpretation within Sikhism and are attempting to disqualify thepurataan interpretations which do in fact exist and have their ownvalidity.

Now take for example where Guru vaak is discussing Dharma. What does it mean, Dharma? And what if Guru Vakia is discussing Sruti? You say you don't want to know, then don't read the post. You don'tspeak for Sikhism. And you can't determine for the rest of us what isor is not within the realm of Sikhi.

The question asked was, "What is Sruti?"

And you answered, that it was nothing to do with Sikhism and nothing you needed or wanted know as it pertains to details about "other religions." Okay. That is your view. Don't read any further or disturb yourself.

ਆਦਿ ਅਪਾਰ ਅਲੇਖ ਅਨੰਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਅਭੇਖ ਅਲਖ ਅਨਾਸਾ ॥ आदि अपार अलेख अनंत अकाल अभेख अलख अनासा ॥

The Lord is Primal, Infinite, Account less, Boundless, Deathless, Garbless, Incomprehensible and Eternal.

ਕੈ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤ ਦਏ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਚਾਰ ਰਜੋ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਤਿਹੂੰ ਪੁਰ ਬਾਸਾ ॥ कै सिव सकत दए स्रुति चार रजो तम सत तिहूं पुर बासा ॥

He created Shiva-Shakti, four Vedas and three modes of maya and Pervades in three worlds.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC Translation) p. 175

The God's own design was to create the energy and pakriti manifestationof the material universes. The God Himself created Brahma and theVedas.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

~SGGS Ji ang 1350

Scriptures are not bad, neither are they wrong.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh dheesai breham pasaar ||

The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh thrai guneeaaan bisathhaar ||

The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh naadh baedh beechaar ||

The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥

bin gur poorae ghor andhhaar ||1||

Without the Perfect Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness.

~SGGS Ji ang 1270

Analyze this vaak: "guramukh naadh baedh beechaar."

The Gurmukh is learning/reflecting on the wise teaching/vichaar which is coming from Naad and Vedas.

Now we know that memorizing Vedas is a waste of time. We know thatendless debates about the Vedas is a waste of time. We know thatpandits spending their lives reading Vedas are not finding the boat ofmukti. So, if Vedas are not bad, then how are they good? What is the essence of Vedas whose wise vichaar is contemplated by Gurmukh and which resounds out of the Primal Naad?

I tell you that essence is Sruti.

ਇਕ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਟ ਬ੍ਰਤੀ ॥ ਇਮ ਬੇਦ ਉਚਾਰਤ ਸਾਰਸੁਤੀ ॥

Ik naam binaa nahoo kot bratoo|| Im Bed uchaarat Saarsutoo||

Without One Lord’s Name, one cannot be saved even by millions of fasts. The Superb Shrutis (of the Vedas) declare thus.

ਜੋਊ ਵਾ ਰਸ ਕੇ ਚਸਕੇ ਰਸ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇਊ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਕਾਲ ਫੰਧਾ ਫਸਿ ਹੈਂ॥੨੦॥੧੬੦॥

Jooo vaa ras ke chaske ras hain|| Teoo bhool na kaal phandhaa phas(i) hain||20||160||

Those, who are absorbed with the ambrosia of the Name even by Mistake, they will not be entrapped in he snare of death.20.160.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) p. 64

So, what is Sruti?

ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥

akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae ||

In the Word, God established the three worlds.

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

akhar kar kar baedh beechaarae ||

Created from the Word, the Vedas are contemplated.

ਅਖਰ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥

akhar saasathr sinmrith puraanaa ||

From the Word, came the Shaastras, Simritees and Puraanas.

ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ ॥

akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa ||

From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations.

ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਭਰਮਾ ॥

akhar mukath jugath bhai bharamaa ||

From the Word, comes the way of liberation from fear and doubt.

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥

akhar karam kirath such dhharamaa ||

From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma.

ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਅਖਰ ਹੈ ਜੇਤਾ ॥

dhrisattimaan akhar hai jaethaa ||

In the visible universe, the Word is seen.

~SGGS Ji ang 241

ਅਖਰ Akhar, is derived from the Sanskrit Akshara which means "indestructible." Akshara also means "word-syllable." And hence it is a NAAM of the Supreme as SOUND, Shabda Brahman. It is the single syllable Ek Akshara, which is the OM, as can be seen from the translation of the Bhagavad-Gita.

oḿ ity ekākṣaraḿ brahma

vyāharan mām anusmaran

yaḥ prayāti tyajan dehaḿ

sa yāti paramāḿ gatim

oḿ — the combination of letters oḿ (oḿkāra); iti — thus; eka-akṣaram — the one syllable; brahma — absolute; vyāharan — vibrating; mām — Me (Kṛṣṇa); anusmaran — remembering; yaḥ — anyone who; prayāti —

leaves; tyajan — quitting; deham — this body; saḥ — he; yāti — achieves; paramām — the supreme; gatim — destination.

After being situated in this yoga practice and vibrating the sacred syllable oḿ, thesupreme combination of letters, if one thinks of the SupremePersonality of Godhead and quits his body, he will certainly reach thespiritual planets.

~Bhagavad-Gita 8:13

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥

baedh puraan sinmrith sudhhaakhyar ||

The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,

ਕੀਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਆਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥

keenae raam naam eik aakhyar ||

were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 262

Sruti is intimately related to the Shabda Brahman, which is a Word-Akshara which vibrates-Spanda. Sruti is that which is heard vibrating from higher dimensional realityof Divine Sound Roop. As such it is the essence of Truth and Gyaan ofthe Vedas. Sruti is that which has been perceived directly and transmitted to mankind in a form we can understand, language. But carried within the words by vibrational Truth is the Sound Presence of the Divine and the means to Divine Perception and liberation. Only a Satguru can give us the grace to perceive Divine Truth on this level. It can never be understood simply by reading or reciting the words.

Śruti (Sanskrit: श्रुति, IAST: śrúti, lit. "hearing, listening"), often spelled shruti or shruthi, is a term that describes the sacred texts Hinduism and is one of the three main sources of dharma and therefore is also influential within Hindu Law.[1]These sacred works span the entire history of Hinduism, beginning withsome of the earliest known Hindu texts and ending in the early modernperiod with the later Upanishads..[2] This literature differs from other sources of Hindu Law, particularly smṛtior “remembered text”, because of the purely divine origin of śruti.This belief of divinity is particularly prominent within the Mimamsatradition.[3] The initial literature is traditionally believed to be a direct revelation of the “cosmic sound of truth” heard by ancient Rishis[4] Sruti

From this (Unmeṣa-Appearance), Bindú --divine light, Nādá --divine sound--, Rūpá --divine form-- and Rása --divine taste-- soon appear to an embodied soul as a disturbing factor.

~Spanda Karikas Section 1, aphorism 10.

ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਸਤਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਖਾਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਆ ਅਘਾਏ ॥੩॥

naam nidhhaan sathaguroo dhikhaaliaa har ras peeaa aghaaeae ||3||

The True Guru has revealed to him the Treasure ofthe Naam, the Name of the Lord;

he drinks in the Sublime Essence of theLord, and is satisfied.

~SGGS Ji ang 29

"One whose prabhava i.e., udaya or appearance or manifestation(abhivyakti) comes about from the vibhava i.e. the inner unfoldment ofthe mass of light i.e., the divinities of the senses (rasmi punja)(i,e, Sankara who is manifested by an inner development of the senses). The sense is that the recognition of the highest Lord is brought abouteffortlessly by the practice of perception of the inner nature." The Yoga of Pulsation and Divine Vibration

I actually eat a lot of them. They're delicious!

Anyway there is nothing in Gurmat that ban garlic and onions.That person has no authority to say anything about Langar

I could care less about his opinion to be honest, it was just a way for Laalsingh to derail the topic and make comparison between Hindu philosophy and some RSS guy. I could also care less about some Shia Muslim guy.

There is a tradition of goat meat langar among Shaktas following jhatka sacrifice for Kali puja and Aghouri Sadhus practice cannibalism. This means something? The traditional practice in every Indian temple excludes onions and garlic. If this was a former Sikh practice and modernly changed, then it does in fact reflect deliberate rejection of tradition of the past.

But as I said before, I could care less about debating onions.

By this logic we should also ban use pure ghee milk and milk productsin Langars as vegans Don't use any animal products.We should now alsopresume that vegans are not welcome in Langar?

You missed the part in the article where he said no other prasadam anywhere contains onions and garlic, and that this was a new innovation even for Sikhs. So it isn't a question of silly comparisons of milk-free purely vegan diets, but what is traditional and what was original and what is now being modified out of ignorance politically to create more artificial separations from Hindus which did not formerly exist.

Electronic medium is only a medium. The YOUTUBE is useful like any television, movie or documentary to show us something we haven't seen directly and are not aware of. But it only conveys an image of a thing. Yet our mind and intelligence allow us to discern the reality behind the image. Things are more easily misrepresented through any kind of medium, even direct words.

Gurmat is actually in the words of Guru vaak because of transmission of the Guru Jyot. But Gurmat is also the Guru speaking directly into your heart and mind because Guru links with our atma. So this is why Guru knows intimately everything about us. We cannot hide fromGuru Sahib. Everything is known, directly. He knows even before we do something. So we have medium of bani and medium of kirtan and medium of nama jap. But even before we utter a sound, Guru knows. And when we utter a sound we should try to make it as much an awareness of the all-pervading Presence of Guru God.

One thing for sure, Youtube can be biggest paapi waste of time or it can become a temple in your own home. Depends on our own vasanas. But YOUTUBE can never replace sadhsangat. I say let the electronic medium become like university teacher, and have the discipline to get the best education you can without wasting the time on the manmukh things. Don't waste the life.

Hinduism can be criticized. But Sanatana Dharma cannot.

Is that not the problem then Hinduism is claiming to be Sanatana Dharma.

Hnduism modernly is too many sects, schools of philosohy, practices etc which do not all agree on all things. What they do agree on is Sruti of Vedas and in varying measures depending on sampradya Puranas, Shastras and Smritis. But the Smritis for example are not Sruti. So those elements within different sampraday which have always debated can be criticized or open to debate. But those eternal principles which are part of Sruti canot be criticized simply because they are Truth.

Hinduism is a part of Sanatana Dharma teaching just like Buddhism because the foundation and origination of the beliefs is Sruti, that which was revealed to the Rshis and was sung in Vedic mantras which came to be written down as Vedas. SO Hindu religion is not wrong to call itself Sanatana Dharma. But it can't be ignored that Hinduism is never going to fit into a neat little box where everybody agrees on everything. It is the religion(s) plural which originate which Sruti teachings. Sikhism is a part of Sanatana Dharma, else why is Dharma so central to the philosophy? But this doesn't mean Sikhi isn't independent in interpretations or has not got innovations. Just means it clearly shares brotherhood with Dharmic faiths.

When was the word sanatan dharma first coined up ?

Wiki has a very nice article on it.

The Sanskrit term Sanātana Dharm (Hindi: सनातन धर्म) or Dharmam Sanātanam (transliterated in Pali: Dhammo Sanatano), lit. "the way of life", is an epithet used natively in Dharmic Traditions, notably Hindu Dharma and early Buddha Dharmato collectively refer to their religious practices and beliefsrespectively. While Hindus use the Sanskrit term, early Buddhist textsused the Pali equivalent. Sanātana Dharm also refers to "Eternal Law" and is sometimes designed under the term "Manu Law".In modern times Hindus also refer to their religion as "Sanatana Dharma".

The first use perhaps comes from Kathopanishad. For example, the Kathopanishad declares: "Eso's' vatthah sanatanah."^[1]

The Manu Smriti (4-138) goes on to declare:

Satyam bruyatpriyam bruyanna bruyatsatyamapriyam.Priyam cha nanrtam bruyadesa dharmah sanatanah.Translation: "Speak the truth, speak the truth that is pleasant.Do not speak the truth to manipulate. Do not speak falsely to please orflatter someone. This is the quality of the Sanatan Dharma".

The Bhagavad Gita reads:

Traigunya vishaya veda nistraigunyo bhavarjuna (Gita II-45)

Translation: "O Arjun, the Vedas deal with the three gunas (sattva, rajas and tamas). You should transcend these three gunas."

The Bhagavata Purana reads:

"At the end of each cycle of four yugas, the rishis, throughtheir asceticism, saw the collections of srutis swallowed up by time,after which the eternal (Sanatanah) dharma (was re-established)."^[2]

Eternality of Dharma

Further information: RtaThe concept of Dharma being eternal is a recurrent concept in the Hindu literature and Buddhist literature from the 1st millennium BCE. It occurs in the Epics Mahabharata & Ramayana as well as in the Pali Canon and points to a common origin of the concept. In the Vedas, the eternal Dharma is called by the name Rta, while in Old Persian and Zoroastrian scripture (in Avestan), the cognate is called Arta and Asha respectively and can therefore be taken as a continuation of a common Proto-Indo-Iranian religious concept. The eternality (sanātanatvā) of Dharma implied also its constancy and invariability.

Absolute Truth/Righteousness

Further information: Brahman"O Indra, lead us on the path of Rta, on the right path over all evils."-- (Rig Veda Book X, Chapter CXXXIII, Verse 6)Subject to context, Rta- is also frequently translated as "rightworking" or "[that which is] right". The word then (cf. Bartholomae'sand Geldner's translations as German "Recht") has the same range ofmeaning of "right" as in the English language: truth, righteousness,rightfulness, lawfullness, conformity, accord, order (cosmic order,social order, moral order).

The eternality of the Dharma was also an important factor as it represented the idea of an absolute truth, which had its VedanticBrahman, the unchangeable immortal existence of absolute truth. While the eternality of Dharma was emphasized in the tradition of Purva Mimamsa, the equivalent absolutist concept of Nirguna Brahman was the preserve of Vedanta as represented by the Upanishads. parallel in the concept of

Its existence is referred to in Sanskrit as truth or satya, or Avestan haithya- (from Indo-European *sat- "being, existing")

Representation of Infinity

Further information: Infinity (philosophy)#Early_Indian_views_of_infinity The concept of eternality and invariability of Dharma also takes into account the principle of infinity of the holy law i.e Dharma^[3]. The Isha Upanishad of the Yajurveda states that "if you remove a part from infinity or add a part to infinity, still what remains is infinity".

Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam (Infinity is that, infinity is this)pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (infinity comprises infinity)pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya (When infinity is subtracted from infinity)pūrṇam evāvasiṣyate (Infinity alone remains) - Isha UpanishadThe essence of this verse is that the Infinite cannot be measuredarithmetically - Brahman is viewed as this Infinite Eternal and holyreality i.e Sanatana Dharma. Sanatana Dharma

Why Laalsingh are the opinions of a member of RSS expressed on a Sangh Parivaar forum now propagandistically blasted all over Sikh forums?

And Why oh why is that article linked here, to this debate if not further evidence of your incredibly distorted HATRED and misunderstanding of Hindu religion? RSS is a political organization. It is not a spiritual group. While it has religious MEMBERS, it cannot be misconstrued as representative of Hindu religion. Now, we are discussing the heritage of sanatana Dharma philosophies as espoused by various sampraday and not even what has been tried to fit into a neat little western-style box "Hindu religion." But I would have to do linguistic flip flops.

For purposes of clarity in this discussion: Hinduism is too many sects to count, but generally agrees on Sruti as being primary. Hinduism includes the truths of that Sruti which reflect the eternal Dharm, AS WELL AS all the legalistic innovations good and bad which make for a religion. Hinduism can be criticized. But Sanatana Dharma cannot. So I'm trying to make a distinction between the man-made parts of religion versus the pure truths of spirituality.

As I'm discussing the Pure Truths of spirituality (independant of the man-interpreted parts), along comes this derailing article from some RSS guy all ticked off about onions in the langar and Bhindranwale portrait!

Can we try to have some restraint here and stay focused? Are you really so completely out of your mind that you can't stand for one minute any intelligent discussion of Sants who influenced Gurbani reform and the truths of Sanatana Dharma that you have to throw the milking cow and the RSS aunty at it? Can you please restrain yourself long enough to explain the bugaboo about onions having to do with Devi? And he is right, onions and garlic are traditionally considered both rajasic and tamasic foods and strict sadhus can't eat them. So any langar with them has sent clear message that Sadhus aren't welcome, and I think we all understand that point.

Truly Hindu's whose beliefs are deliberately distorted are hated and despised by Sikhs and not at all welcome.

But that's another topic.

not long ago we had a shia who "proved" that langar was a persianconcept which was brought to india. if the vaishnavs did it, it didntcatch on very well did it?

I think the point being made is that holy people have always done it. It's certainly not a new innovation started in 16th century. I don't doubt there was such a thing in Persia as well, probably you will find some history of free kitchens and langar-style paramilitary halls throughout the world. Christian saints and their religious orders certainly have. The fact that Persians and even Christinas didn't really have a caste system makes the point moot since the objection has been raised that caste system was rejected because of the langar hall. However, despite not having a recognized caste system, the whole world really does. You see it in the designations of elite versus the rabble, rich versus poor, or political power remaining in certain families for hundreds of years. There is a power structure that human societies develop along. Caste-varna is really only saying that, there are 4 colors of men, there are 4 ages, there are 4 walks of life. And that really is the truth. The true brahmin is exactly as Guruji said it was, the one who is a bhakta of God. And just as the clear teachings of bhagat bani from Vaishnav bhaktas who were from shudra caste have become great and holy saints and their bani has ow become a part of Gurubani, that TRUTH is front and center for all the world to see.

What's the debate? Oh, of course. The debate is Hindu's are evil, corrupted, superstitious and incapable of having those wonderful things which only the SIKHS have. Well, you're wrong, I'm sorry. I simply wanted to point out the truth that Vaishnav bhagats already had a caste-free free kitchen before there was a Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Because reform of the caste system can be found in those Vaishnav Ram-Naami bhagats who lived BEFORE Guru Nanak Dev Ji and their authentically spiritual message of equality.

This particular argument simply goes back to the reality that Sanatana Dharma is an eternal Truth of our duty in this life to the creation and to the Creator as well as to ourselves. It hasn't got anything to do with a book of rules or any strict definition of religion. Within the Sanatana Dharma Paradigm is this unbroken Truth and how far apart from it or near we come to it. Guru Sahib spoke and wrote the Truth because He was One with the Truth. As Guru He rejected the false and hypocritical "religion" of what people always try to make true into by clearly rejecting the corruptions and abuses of the day. Of that there is no doubt.

But to think Guru Sahibaan were the only ones to do that is false. To think Hindu Dhamr has had no saints or spirituality at all is false. To think Hindu Dharm represents only the grossest corruptions is a really poor reflection on the person who thinks that way. To be quite honest, there have been saints of every religion, in every time period known to man. Because there is a universal truth. That universal truth is the original Sanatana Dharm. But it would be equally wrong to say those wise philosophies have not been part of the preserved heritage of Hindustan, and worldwide are also know as Hindu Dharm for this reason.

You see, your argument is only that Hindu's have nothing, are nothing. But that can easily be disproved.

firstly, the todays udasis dont even recognise their founder anymore!and the nirmalas look at everything thru vedant goggles. Im sure thereare exception to these, so i apologise for the generalisation aboutboth samprdayes. Sorry.

Udasi have always revered Baba Sri Chand, their founder. He is their root Guru. Nirmalay originated as Sanskrit and Vedic scholars. How has their role changed? Their purataan interpretations of Sikhi are a matter of history.

now harjas kaur, can you make your mind up! you first said that dharmais eternal and doesnt change, and now you say the requirements ofdharma change in every age. how is that possible is dharma is eternal?

DHARMA which represents righteousness is ETERNAL. What is required to fulfill the obligations of that Dharma changes based on whether you are a human being or a dog in this incarnation, whether you are a man or a woman in this incarnation, whether you are from a religious family, a business family, a poor family, etc. Just as the atma is ETERNAL yet manifests in various forms of temporary identity, so do the requirements of Dharm change from person to person just as they change from age to age.

Requirements of Dharma change within your very life. When you are a son, you have a particular duty to your parents. When you marry and have wife and children you become the parent and Dharm includes greater responsibilities. But Dharm is still Dharm. How we relate to it due to OUR changeability is the point. In the Iron Age of technology and corruption Dharma has lost the legs it stands on and people lose spirituality but one leg remains standing, cling to the NAAM the boat of mukti. Guruji has explained beautifuly. Of what need is there to become argumentative and debate nonessentials such as accusation Dharma itself changes when the very definition is unchanging?

Is this really your own misperception or are you trying so desperately to disqualify Hindu Dharm that you would even stoop so low as to attack the meaning of Dharma itself? Because that Dharma is the same term and concept in Gurbani. If you distort it's definition, you also distort the term in Gurbani. Dharma doesn't change. We change. The age of mankind changes. Our relationship to Dharma changes because of our changing roles and change of society.

Respected veer Balbir Singh Ji asks:

Harjas Kaur Jee!

Devee Jee, Do you give Darshan, on YouTube etc., or just write.

Respected veer ji, if I was on Youtube it would be a comedy of drooping eyelids and my ego would require Guruji's swift kick, which sadly I would receive. Already I make too much self-important noise on internet and should do tapasiya to repent for it.

However there is darshan of Devi on Youtube. Wherever there is authentic message of piare, the God is always present. Wherever there is cherishing people, the Devi is always there. Because Devi is just one face of infinite God. So every one of us are also meant to become the face and roop of Divine Love and Divine Power to do good courageously in the face of suffering and evil.

Please enjoy Shri Mata Ji's message to become the change the world needs. Because you will not have any sipahis worth anything to Dharm if they have not first become sants. My humble benti to you all, let's be kind and let's be good so we shine Divine's own roop in this world of darkness before we too, fade away.

"Your task is not to seek love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself you have built against it."~Jalal al-Din Rumi

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_pTLR9qRlqg