HarjasDevi

Even though with fake names, members show their real faces.

Actually, it is my real name. It is your judgment as to my real face or not.

harjas touts santana dharma as being similar to sikhism.

That is far from correct. santana dharma endorses varna ashram or castesytem. per that Hindu caste is divided in four castes. Lowest casteshudras are considered as not even human beings.

Sikhism believes in equality of human beings. Drinking from the same bowl during Amrit sanchar broke that barrier forever.

Actually the Vaishnav sampradaya did break that caste barrier a couple hundred years before Guru Nanak Dev Ji. They also started langar/free kirtchens.

If caste of Shudras are not even considered human beings by Hindus, how do you explain that the Hindu sant of my experience is from Shudra caste? Perhaps you have erroneous views which reflect only the worst distortions of sanatana Dharma.

In actuality Guru Sahib corrected the abuses and distortions of the caste system to the original Sruti of the Vedas. He did not reject tradition. In fact all the Guru's married within their caste and keeping caste surname. You may deny it, but right or wrong, it's the truth. During Sikh Misl period Sikhs kept caste surnames. Why is this if it was rejected completely? What was rejected was abuses of the caste system. Those Vaishnav bhagats whose bani is in Gurbani? Many were shudras who had Brahmin Gurus. How was this? Because Vaishnavism, although it's sects are divided now, do still have sampraday which reject ABUSES of the caste and made BRAHMIN Sannyasis out of all castes long before there was a Guru Gobind Singh.

ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥

adhham chanddaalee bhee brehamanee soodhee thae sraesattaaee rae ||

The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime.

~SGGS Ji ang 381

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥

khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||

The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.

~SGGS Ji ang 747

ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥

braahaman khathree soodh vais chaar varan chaar aasram hehi jo har dhhiaavai so paradhhaan ||

There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh'shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned

~SGGS Ji ang 861

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਖਟ ਦਰਸਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕ ਸਿਮਰੰਥਿ ਗੁਨਾ ॥

gaavehi gun baran chaar khatt dharasan brehamaadhik simaranthh gunaa ||

The four castes and the six Shaastras sing His Glorious Praises; Brahma and the others contemplate His Virtues.

~SGGS Ji ang 1390

ਆਪੇ ਦਸ ਅਠ ਵਰਨ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਆਪਿ ਰਾਜੁ ਲਇਆ ॥

aapae dhas ath varan oupaaeian aap breham aap raaj laeiaa ||

He Himself created the people of the eighteen castes; God Himself acquired His domain.

ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਛੋਡੈ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸੇ ਕਰੇ ਦਇਆ ॥

aapae maarae aapae shhoddai aapae bakhasae karae dhaeiaa ||

He Himself kills, and He Himself redeems; He Himself, in His Kindness, forgives us. He is infallible

~SGGS Ji ang 553

santana dharma endorses yogic practices to achieve God.sikhism rejects that.

Sikhi is Jog Jio. The first Jogic practice of a Sikh...tie the kes in a jura, forming a mudra over his dasam duar. Second Jogic practice of a Sikh practice pranayama Nama Japa to put vibration of mantr onto the hairs and placing surti on the praan starting from the nabhi.

Perhaps if Sikhi rejects Jog you can explain to me precisely what is going on with the Ire, Pingala and Shushmana nadis please? And exactly where do you get amrit which trickles down the throat? Because that's Joga. Do you even understand Naam Japna?

ਭਾਠੀ ਗਗਨੁ ਸਿੰਙਿਆ ਅਰੁ ਚੁੰਙਿਆ ਕਨਕ ਕਲਸ ਇਕੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

bhaathee gagan sinn(g)iaa ar chunn(g)iaa kanak kalas eik paaeiaa ||

The Tenth Gate of my crown chakra is the distilling fire, and the channels of the Ida and Pingala are the funnels, to pour in and empty out the golden vat.

ਤਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਧਾਰ ਚੁਐ ਅਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਰਸ ਮਹਿ ਰਸਨ ਚੁਆਇਆ ॥੨॥

this mehi dhhaar chuai ath niramal ras mehi rasan chuaaeiaa ||2||

Into that vat, there trickles a gentle stream of the most sublime and pure essence of all distilled essences. ||2||

ਏਕ ਜੁ ਬਾਤ ਅਨੂਪ ਬਨੀ ਹੈ ਪਵਨ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਸਾਜਿਆ ॥

eaek j baath anoop banee hai pavan piaalaa saajiaa ||

Something wonderful has happened-the breath has become the cup.

ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨੁ ਹੈ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੩॥

theen bhavan mehi eaeko jogee kehahu kavan hai raajaa ||3||

In all the three worlds, such a Yogi is unique. What king can compare to him?

~SGGS Ji ang 92

What is being described above is called Khechari Mudra, the seal you make with your tongue at the back of the throat to catch the amrit nectar as it trickles down from the pineal gland once the agni chakr at level between the eyes (third eye) opens. This area is where the Ire, Pingala and Shushmana meet, the confluence of three rivers. It is also discussed in Bhai Gurdas Vaaran. These inner seals of the nine gates, bodily senses have to close before the tenth gate can open. The nine Jogic gates are: 1. 2 eyes, 2 ears, nose, mouth, rectum and urethra. This restraint has to be mastered before you can hear the 5 yogic sounds, panch shabad leading to the stillness of sehaja samadhi of the anehad shabad, because the soundless sound is not heard audibly with the senses. That is why NAAM is the boat of mukti. And it is NOT unique to Sikhs. Not only Yogis but even the Sufis practice Naam with Dhikr.

ਉਲਟਤ ਪਵਨ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਖਟੁ ਭੇਦੇ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਅਨਰਾਗੀ ॥

oulattath pavan chakr khatt bhaedhae surath sunn anaraagee ||

I turned my breath inwards, and pierced through the six chakras of the body, and my awareness was centered on the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 333

ਰਾਗ ਨਾਦ ਸੰਬਾਦ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਚੇਤਾਇਆ ।

raag naad sanbaad giaanu chaytaaiaa|

Music, melody, dialogue and knowledge make man a conscious being.

ਨਉ ਦਰਵਾਜੇ ਸਾਧਿ ਸਾਧੁ ਸਦਾਇਆ ।

nau daravaajay saadhi saadhu sadaaiaa|

By disciplining the nine gates of the body one is called a sadhu.

ਵੀਹ ਇਕੀਹ ਉਲਘਿ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ।

veeh ikeeh ulaghi nij ghari aaiaa|

Transcending the worldy illusions he stabilizes within his self.

ਪੂਰਕ ਕੁੰਭਕ ਰੇਚਕ ਤ੍ਰਾਟਕ ਧਾਇਆ ।

poorak kunbhak raychak traatak dhaaiaa|

Prior to this, he was running after various practices of hath yoga,

ਨਿਉਲੀ ਕਰਮ ਭੁਯੰਗੁ ਆਸਣ ਲਾਇਆ ।

niulee karam bhuyangu aasan|aaiaa|

such as the rechak, purak, kumbhak, tratak, nyolrand bhujarig asan.

ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਝਾਗ ਸੁਖਮਨਿ ਛਾਇਆ ।

irhaa pingulaa jhaag sukhamani chhaaiaa|

He practised different processes of breathing like ire', pirigala and susumna.

Line 6

ਖੇਚਰ ਭੂਚਰ ਚਾਚਰ ਸਾਧਿ ਸਧਾਇਆ ।

khaychar bhoochar chaachar saadhi sadhaaiaa|

He perfected their khechari and chachari postures.

ਸਾਧ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਖੇਲੁ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਆਇਆ ॥੬॥

saadh agochar khaylu unamani aaiaa ॥6॥

Through such mysterious sport he establishes himself in the equipoise.

~Vaar 22 Pauri 6 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੋ ਧਰਤਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਉਲਘਿ ਪਇਆਣਾ ।

paunu paanee baisantaro dharati akaasu ulaghi paiaanaa|

Gurmukh goes beyond air, water, fire, earth and sky.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਵਿਰੋਧੁ ਲਘਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਵਿਹਾਣਾ ।

kaamu krodhu virodhu|aghi|obhu mohu ahankaaru vihaanaa|

Resisting lust and anger he crosses the greed, infatuation and ego.

ਸਤਿ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਦਇਆ ਧਰਮੁ ਅਰਥੁ ਸੁ ਗਰੰਥੁ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ।

sati santokh daiaa dharamu aradu su garandu panch paravaanaa|

He espouses truth, contentment, compassion, dharma and fortitude.

ਖੇਚਰ ਭੂਚਰ ਚਾਚਰੀ ਉਨਮਨ ਲਘਿ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਬਾਣਾ ।

khaychar bhoochar chaacharee unaman|aghi agochar baanaa|

Getting above of the khechar bhuchar chachar, unman and agochar (all yogic postures) mudras he concentrates upon the One Lord.

ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੋ ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਘਨਘੋਰ ਨੀਸਾਣਾ ।

panchaain paramaysaro panch sabad ghanaghor neesaanaa|

He beholds God in five (select persons) and the five sounds of five words become his special marks.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪੰਚ ਭੂਆਤਮਾ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਸੁਹਾਣਾ ।

guramukhi panch bhooaatamaa saadhasangati mili saadh suhaanaa|

Antahkaran, the basis of all five external elements is cultivated and cultured by gurmukh in the holy congregation.

ਸਹਜ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਨ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥੫॥

sahaj samaadhi n aavan jaanaa ॥5॥

This way immersing in undisturbed trance he gets liberated from the cycle of transmigration.

~Vaar 7 Pauri 5 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

Status of demigods is already explained by extensive quotes from dasam Granth sahib.below are quotes from SGGS ji.

Status of demi-gods is exactly as taught in Gurbani. Even the same exact NAAMS are used to describe the same Devatay, Avtaray and Nirguna. With the same purpose, surrender to a Satguru, practice NAAM Jap and bhakti of sankirtan of Lord's praise, in order to cross ocean of sansaar and obtain mukti. I'm sorry but the differences are not that great as you'd like to think veer Ji.

udasi are a joke. nirmale not far behind.

Why are they a joke exactly? They each have own sampraday which have contributed good things. Why disrespect anyone even if you disagree? If you have something better is should be precious something to share, especially with people in need.

and if avtars are particaularto yugs then why arent their teachings?

Not all avatars are particular to yugs. The teachings are as said by Gurbani. As the Dharma bull loses his legs, the requirements of Dharm change from age to age.

like i said many times, if Gitawas the text for kalyug there was no need for Guru Nanak to take birth,and reveal new scriptures, if the ld ones still held the gretaknowledge. sanatan means most ancient, not eternal. and ram in naam isnot the same as ramchander.

Gurbani says the God comes from Age to Age. Gurbani says the God came as Ramachandra and Krishna and also as Guru Sahib. But you can believe however you want. It doesn't even matter what you or I believe because BELIEF is not our boat of mukti. Guruji's kirpa is our greatest grace.

"Sanatana" is a Sanskrit word that denotes that which which is Anadi (beginningless), Anantha (endless) and does not cease to be, that which is eternal and everlasting. With its rich connotations, Dharma is not translatable to any other language. Dharma is from dhri,meaning to hold together, to sustain. Its approximate meaning is"Natural Law," or those principles of reality which are inherent in thevery nature and design of the universe. Thus the term Sanatana Dharmacan be roughly translated to mean "the natural, ancient and eternal way." Sanatana Dharma

Akaal_Das Sent Today, 11:49 AM

I called u devi because u cant be a Sikh u r another confused soul in Wonderland where Sikhi and Hinduism is same . We Sikhs not ur types belive in one god that is Akal Purkh . He is doesn't need Brahma , Vishnu and Shiva. Akal is crator is the creator he is the preserver and he is destructor.

Hindu gods are just like Roman gods MYTH JUST MYTH . Romans have Hercules these Kanjars created Hanuman lol.,

Khalsa means Hukumraan the ruler born to rule , born to establish its own nation.

Guru Hargobind Sahib ji Said to mughals

Mai na inko baaz dehu

Baaz Taaj sab inse lehu.

Congress did what Hindus wanted . It was Hindu sponsor genocide . These rat worshippers dont deserve independence they all shoild be made slave just what Mughals and Britishers did.

HINDUISM is the biggest threat to Sikhi thaks to ur kind.

We Dont need ur fake devte or Sanatan bullshit . read below that is called Hinduism is bullshitism.

WEIRDEST HINDUISM : LORD BRAHMA LUSTS SIVA'S WIFE & THOUSANDS OF YOGIS ARE BORN

Brahma instantly becomes the dad of thousands of ascetics; the following takes place at Lord Siva's wedding:

"Brahma saw the beautiful face (or feet) of Parvati at the wedding, and he became excited and shed his seed upon the ground. In fear of Siva, he began to make the seed barren, but Siva said,'Brahma, you should not kill Brahmins, and these are great sages.' Then 88,000 tapasvins were born from the seed, and they ran around Brahma calling him 'Daddy, daddy!' " -- Brahma Purana 72:18; Vamana Purana 27:56-9; cf. Siva Purana, Jnanasamhita 18:62-8; Siva Purana 2:3:49:3-10; Skanda Purana 1:1:26:15-22.

LORD PRAJAPATI BECOMES AN 'EROTIC BOAR' TO CREATE THE EARTH (VEDAS -- TAITTIRIYA SAMHITA)

For millenia, Hindus believed that the earth was surrounded by water as the entire universe was an ocean surrounding the earth. Lord Prajapati (Brahma) becomes a boar avatar ("god-incarnate-hog" ) to create the planet:

"In the beginning this universe was the waters, the ocean. Prajapati became the wind and moved in the ocean. He saw the earth and became a boar and seized her; he became Visvakarman and stroked her, spreading her out so that she became extended; she became the earth, and so the earth is called Prthivi ('the Extended'). Prajapati exhausted himself in her, and he produced the gods, Vasus, Rudras, and Adityas." -- Taittiriya Samhita 7:1:5:1. Compare: Rig-Veda 1:61:7; 8:77:10; Satapatha Brahmana 7:5:1:5; 14:1:2:11; Taittiriya Brahmana 1:1:3:5; Taittiriya Samhita 6:2:4:2.

HINDUISM SAYS WOMEN ARE LIKE WHORES BY NATURE

Hinduism's holy dharmasastra teaches that women are like whores and sluts by nature like the bimbo goddess Indrani (ref. RigVeda 10:86:6.):

"Good looks do not matter to them, nor do they care about youth; 'A man!' they say, and enjoy sex with him, whether he is good-looking or ugly. By running after men like whores, by their fickle minds, and by their natural lack of affection these women are unfaithful to their husbands even when they are zealously guarded here. Knowing that their very own nature is like this, as it was born at the creation by the Lord of Creatures (Prajapati), a man should make the utmost effort to guard them. The bed and the seat, jewellery, lust, anger, crookedness, a malicious nature, and bad conduct are what Manu assigned to women. There is no ritual with Vedic verses for women; this is a firmly established point of law. For women, who have no virile strength, and no Vedic verses, are falsehood; this is well established." -- Manusmrti 9:14-18.

Since this cowardly poster is afraid to discuss these subjects on the forum where his intention can be open for all to see, I thought I should have the courage for him.

Let's discuss anything related to this issue: badgering people in private PMs, or even the arrogance to say Hindu women are whores by nature and that rat worshipper Hindus should all be made slaves.

Thank you. Also please do share from Gurbani Guruji's own teaching on this subject.

So the hindus recognise Guru Nanak as Avatar of Vishnu, and the Avatar of Kalyug?

Dharma has changed actually. Bhagwan Ram Chanders dharma was to kill shudra who did jap-tap. Guru Ji's dharma was to say that my wars are won because of them. God has not changed, but Dharam has.

Udasay and Nirmalay also recognise Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Jyot as being a Yuga Avatar based on the Gurbani, and that is the purataan interpretation.

Gurbani also makes plain that a person, even from born shudra caste who Japs Naam and becomes devoted to God becomes the true brahmin. And the evil hypocrite, even if born into brahmin caste becomes the true shudra. So you have to make the distinction from the spiritual message versus the political misrepresentations. AS an avatar, the GOD HIMSELF was slaying the demonic people, while rescuing the real sants.

Dharma has not changed. That's why it's called SANATANA (eternal) Dharma.

ਇਸੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥

eis jug mehi raam naam nisathaaraa ||

In this age, salvation comes only from the Lord's Name.

~SGGS Ji ang 160

By what strange mystery did God's NAAM come to be RAAM if Ramachandra was evil and corrupted?

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥

har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||

You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak;

You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥

dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God.

~SGGS Ji ang 1390

Gurbani says Guru Nanak Dev Ji was Raam Raghuvans. The same Raam of Avodhya whose sons Lava and Kusha are Bedi (students of the Vedas) and Sodhi lineages. This is something evil now? By what logic?

ਬੇਦੀ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਹ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ॥ ਦੇਤ ਭਯੋ ਬਰਦਾਨ ਹੀਐ ਹੁਲਸਾਇ ਕੈ ॥

बेदी भए प्रसंन राज कह पाइ कै ॥ देत भयो बरदान हीऐ हुलसाइ कै ॥

Having been bestowed the kingdom, the Bedis were very much pleased. With happy heart, he predicted this boon:

ਜਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਮੈ ਹਮ ਆਨ ਕਹਾਇਹੈਂ ॥ ਹੋ ਜਗਤ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦ ਪਾਇਹੈਂ ॥੭॥

जब नानक कलि मै हम आन कहाइहैं ॥ हो जगत पूज करि तोहि परम पद पाइहैं ॥७॥

When in the Iron age, I shall be called Nanak, you will attain the Supreme State and be worshipped by the world."7.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥

दोहरा ॥

DOHRA

ਲਵੀ ਰਾਜ ਦੇ ਬਨਿ ਗਏ ਬੇਦੀਅਨ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜ ॥

लवी राज दे बनि गए बेदीअन कीनो राज ॥

The descendants of Lava, after handing over the kingdom, went to the forest, and the Bedis (descendants of Kusha) began to rule.

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੋਗੀਯੰ ਭੂਅ ਕਾ ਸਕਲ ਸਮਾਜ ॥੮॥

भांति भांति तिनि भोगीयं भूअ का सकल समाज ॥८॥

They enjoyed all comforts of the earth in various ways.8.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

चौपई ॥

CHAUPAI

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਅ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਬੋ ਤੁਮ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਿ ਭੂਅ ਕੋ ਦੀਆ ॥

त्रितीअ बेद सुनबो तुम कीआ ॥ चतुर बेद सुनि भूअ को दीआ ॥

O Sodhi king! You have listened to the recitation of three Vedas, and while listening to the fourth, you gave away your kingdom.

ਤੀਨ ਜਨਮ ਹਮਹੂੰ ਜਬ ਧਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਜਨਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਰਿਹੈਂ ॥੯॥

तीन जनम हमहूं जब धरिहैं ॥ चउथे जनम गुरू तुहि करिहैं ॥९॥

When I shall have taken three births, you will be made the Guru in he fourth birth."9.

ਉਤ ਰਾਜਾ ਕਾਨਨਿਹ ਸਿਧਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਤ ਇਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਰਤ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਯੋ ॥

उत राजा काननिह सिधायो ॥ इत इन राज करत सुख पायो ॥

That (Sodhi) king left for the forest, and this (Bedi) king absorbed himself in royal pleasures.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) p. 128

References to deities in SGGS should not be twisted. Guru sahib wrote in detail about these deities in Dasam Granth sahib.

The following is from Bachitra natak composition of Dasam granth.

There is no distortion Singh2 Ji. All I have done is directly copy the Guru vakia and place side by side with sanatan granth vakia. How are you accusing of twisting? Even traditional sampradayas like Udasin and Nirmalay analyze the Vedantic context.

It is true Narayana, for example is a NAAM of the God as Vishnu aspect. But it is the aspect which like Parabrahm means nirguna and therefore beyond the senses of guna and delusion bondage of maya. Please do not mistake that certain aspects of the Divine which are emphasized in Gurbani mean guna devatay. The error of the Singh Sabhian mentality is ignorance of Hindu teaching getting hysterical over any mention of a devatay NAAM. And this without understanding the HINDU philosophical distinctions. What I'm showing you is the VEDANTIC conception of God EXACTLY matches Gurmat because it is distinguishing the subtle characteristics symbolically represented within these NAAMS to distinguish NIRGUNA, and therefore the ONE SUPREME ABSOLUTE.

Just as you people think Vishnu only means guna devata and totally reject and do not listen to intelligent katha within the Hindu mat itself that in Gurbani these NAAMS of Vishnu and Krishan avatar are not representing the gunas but the ALL-PERVADING LIGHT. And you are not making the subtle distinction which Guru's bani itself makes between the corruptible (in the flesh, material nature of sargun manifestation) and the incorruptible which is always pervading and expressing from within albeit in greater and lesser degrees depending upon the QUALITIES and PURPOSES of the devatay and avtaray.

Just think of it as ONE brilliant, inconceivable, incorruptible and infinite LIGHT which the human eye can't perceive, which is pervading this world of play of lights and shadows.

ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥

जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥

Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18.

Jios, Smritis are not Sruti. They are legal commentaries on Vedantic Mat, they do not have the weight and authority of the Vedas. What the vaak is saying is that bhakti devotees who take shelter directly in the charan of the Guru God do not get entangled with legal interpretations and scholarship.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬੇਦ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਕ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਮ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

ब्रहमा चार ही बेद बनाए ॥ सरब लोक तिह करम चलाए ॥

Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them.

ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

chaarae baedh kathhehi aakaar ||

The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms.

ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥

theen avasathhaa kehehi vakhiaan ||

They describe and explain the three states of mind,

ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧॥

thureeaavasathhaa sathigur thae har jaan ||1||

but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru. ||1||

ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤਰਣਾ ॥

raam bhagath gur saevaa tharanaa ||

Through devotional worship of the Lord, and service to the Guru, one swims across.

~SGGS Ji ang 154

ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖਨ ਇਉ ਕਹਿਆ ॥

saasath sinmrith baedh beechaarae mehaa purakhan eio kehiaa ||

The great men have studied the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas, and they have said this:

ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਜਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਸੂਖੁ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਲਹਿਆ ॥੧॥

bin har bhajan naahee nisathaaraa sookh n kinehoon lehiaa ||1||

"Without the Lord's meditation, there is no emancipation, and no one has ever found peace."

~SGGS Ji ang 215

ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਤੇ ਬੇਦਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥੧੯॥

जिन की लिव हरि चरनन लागी ॥ ते बेदन ते भए तिआगी ॥१९॥

Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19.

ਸਾਧੋ ਰਾਮ ਸਰਨਿ ਬਿਸਰਾਮਾ ॥

saadhho raam saran bisaraamaa ||

Holy Saadhus: rest and peace are in the Sanctuary of the Lord.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕੋ ਇਹ ਗੁਨ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

baedh puraan parrae ko eih gun simarae har ko naamaa ||1|| rehaao ||

This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, that you may meditate on the Name of the Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 220

ਅਨਖੇਦ ਅਭੇਦ ਅਛੇਦ ਨਰੰ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਚਾਰ ਚਤ੍ਰ ਦਿਸ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਫਿਰੰ ॥੧੪॥੧੫੪॥

अनखेद अभेद अछेद नरं ॥ जिह चार चत्र दिस चक्र फिरं ॥१४॥१५४॥

He is without anguish, without difference, and Unassailable Purusha. His discus rotes over all the fourteen worlds. 14.154.

Who is the God known as the Purusha with the discus (Sudarshana Chakra)? It is Vishnu. And it is clear that Guruji's bani is discussing, not the guna devata, but the Supreme All-Pervading Absolute who permeates all the fourteen universes. And it is equally clear that the Supreme Absolute who is being discussed, is the ROOP of God in context of the Vaishnav Sampradaya.

ਜਿਹ ਰਾਗ ਨ ਰੰਗ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਰੁਗੰ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸੋਗ ਨ ਭੋਗ ਨ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗੰ ॥

जिह राग न रंग न रेख रुगं ॥ जिह सोग न भोग न जोग जुगं ॥

He is without affection, colour and without any mark. He is without sorrow, enjoyment and association with Yoga.

ਭੂਅ ਭੰਜਨ ਗੰਜਨ ਆਦਿ ਸਿਰੰ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਬੰਦਤ ਦੇਵ ਅਦੇਵ ਨਰੰ ॥੧੫॥੧੫੫॥

भूअ भंजन गंजन आदि सिरं ॥ जिह बंदत देव अदेव नरं ॥१५॥१५५॥

He is the Destroyer of the Earth and the Primal Creator. The gods, demons and men all make obeisance to Him. 15.155.

ਗਣ ਕਿੰਨਰ ਜੱਛ ਭੁਜੰਗ ਰਚੇ ॥ ਮਣਿ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਮੋਤੀ ਲਾਲ ਸਚੇ ॥

गण किंनर ज्छ भुजंग रचे ॥ मणि माणिक मोती लाल सचे ॥

He Created Ganas, Kinnars, Yakshas and serpents. He Created the gems, rubies, pearls and jewels.

ਅਨਭੰਜ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਅਨਗੰਜ ਬ੍ਰਿਤੰ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਪਾਰ ਨ ਪਾਵਤ ਪੂਰ ਮਤੰ ॥੧੬॥੧੫੬॥

अनभंज प्रभा अनगंज ब्रितं ॥ जिह पार न पावत पूर मतं ॥१६॥१५६॥

His Glory is Unassailable and His account is Eternal. No one of perfect wisdom could know His Limits. 16.156.

ਅਨਖੰਡ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਡੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ॥ ਜੈ ਜੰਪਤ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਭਾ ॥

अनखंड सरूप अडंड प्रभा ॥ जै ज्मपत बेद पुरान सभा ॥

His is the Invincible Entity and His Glory is Unpunishable. All the Vedas and Puranas hail Him.

Did you miss the context where the Guru is saying the Vedas and Puranas are in fact, praising HIM, the ONE? And not some false demi-gods as you are alleging?

ਜਿਹ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਅਨੰਤ ਕਹੈ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਭੂਤ ਅਭੂਤ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਲਹੈ ॥੧੭॥੧੫੭॥

जिह बेद कतेब अनंत कहै ॥ जिह भूत अभूत न भेद लहै ॥१७॥१५७॥

The Vedas and Katebs (Semitic Scriptures) call Him Infinite. The Gross and Subtle both could not know His Secret. 17.157.

The God is not perceivable to the material worlds or anyone who is of materiality. The scriptures are all within the finite realms trying to describe what cannot be contained in the finite concepts. They are giving only concepts of God, not the reality of Brahmgyaan. So Guruji is explaining why we don't worship books about God. Have you ever seen a murthi of the Vedas? Then don't make ridiculous claims that Sanatana Dharma worships the Vedas like a God. Guruji is making the correction that scriptural knowledge can't give anyone perception of the God. HOWEVER, they do teach about Him. They teach necessityu of a Satguru to obtain mukti. They give the world the NAAM.

ਜਿਹ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਜਪੈ ॥ ਸੁਤਿ ਸਿੰਧੁ ਅਧੋਮੁਖ ਤਾਪ ਤਪੈ ॥

जिह बेद पुरान कतेब जपै ॥ सुति सिंधु अधोमुख ताप तपै ॥

The Vedas, Puranas and Katebs pray to Him. The son of ocean i.e. moon, with face upside down performs austerities for His realization.

ਕਈ ਕਲਪਨ ਲੌ ਤਪ ਤਾਪ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਨਹੀ ਨੈਕੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਨਿ ਪਰੈ ॥੧੮॥੧੫੮॥

कई कलपन लौ तप ताप करै ॥ नही नैकु क्रिपानिधि पानि परै ॥१८॥१५८॥

He performs austerities for many kalpas (ages), still the Merciful Lord is not realized by him even for a short while.18.158.

ਜਿਹ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਭੈ ਤਜ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਇਕ ਚਿੱਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧਿ ਕੋ ਭਜ ਹੈਂ ॥

जिह फोकट धरम सभै तज हैं ॥ इक चि्त क्रिपानिधि को भज हैं ॥

Those who forsake all the fake religions, and meditate on the Merciful Lord single-mindedly;

Sanatana Dharma is the eternal Truth. Everything Guruji has described as boat of mukti comes from their teachings. Tis is why I have serious reservations about Singh Sabha editors and scholars because the translational mischief. Sanatana Dharma isn't a "religion" which teaching against the Single Lord or about simran, dhyaan, and bairaag. But the Guru is clearly saying something about getting lost following a false path of only outward knowledge and materialistic practices while missing the boat of the Divine Presence which only a Satguru's grace can give you. But this also doesn't mean to be philosophically ignorant is any kind of virtue.

ਤੇਊ ਯਾ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰ ਕੋ ਤਰ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਭਵਿ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਦੇਹ ਪੁਨਰ ਧਰ ਹੈਂ ॥੧੯॥੧੫੯॥

तेऊ या भव सागर को तर हैं ॥ भवि भूल न देह पुनर धर हैं ॥१९॥१५९॥

They ferry across this dreadful world-ocean, and never come again in human body even by mistake.19.159.

ਇਕ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਿਤੀ ॥ ਇਮ ਬੇਦ ਉਚਾਰਤ ਸਾਰਸੁਤੀ ॥

इक नाम बिना नही कोटि ब्रिती ॥ इम बेद उचारत सारसुती ॥

Without One Lord`s Name, one cannot be saved even by millions of fasts. The Superb Shrutis (of the Vedas) declare thus.

The sargun NAAMS of the ONE ALL-PERVADING LORD are the only boat of mukti. And Vedas are not being condemned by this bani as any kind of false teaching.

ਜੋਊ ਵਾ ਰਸ ਕੇ ਚਸਕੇ ਰਸ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇਊ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਕਾਲ ਫੰਧਾ ਫਸ ਹੈਂ॥੨੦॥੧੬੦॥

जोऊ वा रस के चसके रस हैं ॥ तेऊ भूल न काल फंधा फस हैं॥२०॥१६०॥

Those, who are absorbed with the ambrosia of the Name even by Mistake, they will not be entrapped in he snare of death.20.160.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) pg. 64

The real teaching is the NAAM is a mantra which has to be empowered by a Satguru and imparted to a chela. But I fail to see where taking a tuuk here or there out of context proves anything about how Names of God are worthless and futile. CLEARLY a name of God is what NAAM is. But NAAM is an empowered word, it is imbued with the vibration of the SHABAD-JYOT out of the NAAD. And I fail to see how Gurbani is going to contradict itself by saying abandon Vedas when Gurbani clearly says the wealth and truth of the Vedas is in the sound-current and in the Guru's teachings.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥

guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||

The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

~SGGS Ji ang 2

ਘੋਖੇ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭ ਆਨ ਨ ਕਥਤਉ ਕੋਇ ॥

ghokhae saasathr baedh sabh aan n kathhatho koe ||

I have searched all the Shaastras and the Vedas, and they say nothing except this:

ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦੀ ਹੁਣਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥

aadh jugaadhee hun hovath naanak eaekai soe ||1||

"In the beginning, throughout the ages, now and forevermore, O Nanak, the One Lord alone exists."

~SGGS Ji ang 254

ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥

akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae ||

In the Word, God established the three worlds.

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

akhar kar kar baedh beechaarae ||

Created from the Word, the Vedas are contemplated.

ਅਖਰ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥

akhar saasathr sinmrith puraanaa ||

From the Word, came the Shaastras, Simritees and Puraanas.

ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ ॥

akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa ||

From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations.

ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਭਰਮਾ ॥

akhar mukath jugath bhai bharamaa ||

From the Word, comes the way of liberation from fear and doubt.

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥

akhar karam kirath such dhharamaa ||

From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma.

ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਅਖਰ ਹੈ ਜੇਤਾ ॥

dhrisattimaan akhar hai jaethaa ||

In the visible universe, the Word is seen.

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਨਿਰਲੇਪਾ ॥੫੪॥

naanak paarabreham niralaepaa ||54||

O Nanak, the Supreme Lord God remains unattached and untouched.

~SGGS Ji ang 261

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ॥

so panddith jo man parabodhhai ||

He is a true Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਤਮ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਧੈ ॥

raam naam aatham mehi sodhhai ||

He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ॥

raam naam saar ras peevai ||

He drinks in the Exquisite Nectar of the Lord's Name.

ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕੈ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥

ous panddith kai oupadhaes jag jeevai ||

By that Pandit's teachings, the world lives.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥

har kee kathhaa hiradhai basaavai ||

He implants the Sermon of the Lord in his heart.

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥

so panddith fir jon n aavai ||

Such a Pandit is not cast into the womb of reincarnation again.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥

baedh puraan simrith boojhai mool ||

He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.

ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥

sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||

In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥

chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||

He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥

naanak ous panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||

O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever.

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥

beej manthra sarab ko giaan ||

The Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, is spiritual wisdom for everyone.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਜਪੈ ਕੋਊ ਨਾਮੁ ॥

chahu varanaa mehi japai kooo naam ||

Anyone, from any class, may chant the Naam.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥

jo jo japai this kee gath hoe ||

Whoever chants it, is emancipated.

~SGGS Ji ang 274

Please explain to me what is evil about Vedas and Puranas and what exactly people are supposed to "reject" except blind ritualism, memorization and egotistical scholarship which is far away from the bhakti marg of discipleship to a true Guru? Otherwise, the scriptures are not bad at all. They are part of the material and limited reality. But the essence of their TRUTHS are found in actual bhakti and NAAM Japna. Nothing of Sanatana Dharma has been rejected here. Those are INTERPRETATIONS imposed by people ignorant of Sanatana Dharma who distort that it teaches only worship of demi-gods and blind hypocritical materialism. And you don't think today many calling themselves "Khalsas" aren't performing mindless repetition and memorization of bani in the same way Hindu pandits have been doing for thousands of years?

A sant is still a sant, whatever their sampradaya. And a manmukh can also be hiding in Khalsa bana just as much as in sandhu's roop. We shouldn't make these generalizations which idolize ourselves and condemn everybody else. True worship is still true, and false worship abounds among materialistic people regardless whether they are Sikhs or not. That is the danger of mistranslating Guruji's message to be some sort of condemnation of Hinduism when in fact it is clear warning for everybody what is true and what is false. But if we propagandize this is all denunciation of Hindu Mat, we throw away the wise philosphy of Hindu mat and there are some beautiful truths and teachings there that do help us better understand the Vedantic context of Guruji's bani (As so many examples and stories are coming from Vedas, Puranas and Upanishads), and we falsely glorify ourselves as being the holy Sadhsangat, even as we are all aware what a manmukh almost everybody is.

So I'm not saying we don't have a sadhsangat. I'm saying don't blindly assume just anyone in bana and saying paath is automatically exempt from the same weaknesses that Guruji corrected in the pandits and sadhus. If we develop that nirmata willing to become dust of the feet of sants, and show respect and tolerance for everybody, we can and should become the real thing. But all these vulgar and insulting condemnations spoken in real ignorance of Hindu teaching is not shining the clear bright light of Guruji's message. That's all I'm saying.

The name Narayana is a Sanskrit tatpurusha compound, with the members nāra, which means "human, mortal", and āyana "coming, approaching", from the root i which expresses movement. Tradition associates the nāra element with another meaning of "water", explaining the name as indicating the all-pervasive nature of Narayana as that of an infinite ocean in which the never-ending movement of birth, life and death of the cosmos occurs. Narayana according to this etymology is the one who moves in the infinite waters and is also the water itself. This close association of Narayana with water explains the frequent depiction of Narayana in Hindu Art as standing or sitting on an ocean. Narayana

I'm thinking it may have to do with pronunciation purposes as the bani was set to Raag. Perhaps it is emphasizing the Divine all-pervading in the human element of sadhsangat, by emphasizing the naar part of the word. So as bani is sung it is teaching the God Himself is pervading in sadhsangat so emphasis is on the human "naar" merging completely Divine nature of the God as the NAAM is reflective of movement also. So Sadhsangat in this context is moving from human to merging with Divine.

ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਨਰਾਇਣ ॥

Nārā▫iṇ sāḏẖsang narā▫iṇ.

The Lord, the Lord, is in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

~SGGS Ji ang 868

"If what you have posted is the dharma for this yug, then what was theneed for Guru Nanak to take birth?"

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaḿ sṛjāmy aham

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata,

and a predominant rise of irreligion — at that time I descend Myself.

~Bhagavad-Gita 4:7

ਕਲਿ ਕਾਤੀ ਰਾਜੇ ਕਾਸਾਈ ਧਰਮੁ ਪੰਖ ਕਰਿ ਉਡਰਿਆ ॥

kal kaathee raajae kaasaaee dhharam pankh kar ouddariaa ||

The Dark Age of Kali Yuga is the knife, and the kings are butchers; righteousness has sprouted wings and flown away.

ਕੂੜੁ ਅਮਾਵਸ ਸਚੁ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮਾ ਦੀਸੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹ ਚੜਿਆ ॥

koorr amaavas sach chandhramaa dheesai naahee keh charriaa ||

In this dark night of falsehood, the moon of Truth is not visible anywhere.

~SGGS Ji ang 145

ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੂ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਸਾ ਚੜਿਆ ਰੈ ਭਾਣੁ ॥

kal vich dhhoo andhhaar saa charriaa rai bhaan ||

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, there was only pitch darkness. Then, He rose like the sun to illuminate the darkness.

ਸਤਹੁ ਖੇਤੁ ਜਮਾਇਓ ਸਤਹੁ ਛਾਵਾਣੁ ॥

sathahu khaeth jamaaeiou sathahu shhaavaan ||

He farms the field of Truth, and spreads out the canopy of Truth.

ਨਿਤ ਰਸੋਈ ਤੇਰੀਐ ਘਿਉ ਮੈਦਾ ਖਾਣੁ ॥

nith rasoee thaereeai ghio maidhaa khaan ||

Your kitchen always has ghee and flour to eat.

ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾਂ ਸੁਝੀਓਸੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

chaarae kunddaan sujheeous man mehi sabadh paravaan ||

You understand the four corners of the universe; in your mind, the Word of the Shabad is approved and supreme.

ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥

aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||

You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace.

ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥

aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||

You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 968

"ANd if he was born to restoredharma, why not retsore hindu/sanatan dharma which was in the 3 yugsbefore?"

Dharma is Dharma. It doesn't change. It has not changed. In the age of Kali Yuga the path of bhakti, Nama Japo and sankirtan are the most effective. That is what Sanatana Dharma teaches. If you compare Gurmat with what is described in the Puranas, you are not talking a different philosophy, let alone a different "Dharma." Because both are describing the same belief structure. The only opposition between bani and Puranas is the imagination of Singh Sabhias who intend only to disunite Gurmat from it's clear Vedic, Puranic and Upanishadic origination.

kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuḿ

tretāyāḿ yajato makhaiḥ

dvāpare paricaryāyāḿ

kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt

Whatever result was obtained in Satya-yuga by meditating on Viṣṇu, in Tretā-yuga by performing sacrifices,

and in Dvāpara-yuga by serving the Lord's lotus feet can be obtained in Kali-yuga simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra.

~Srimad Bhagavatam 12.3.52

ਮਹਾ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਿਓ ਅਚਰਜ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਨਿਓ ਰੀ ॥੩॥

mehaa manthra gur hiradhai basiou acharaj naam suniou ree ||3||

The Guru has implanted the Maha Mantra, the Great Mantra, within my heart, and I have heard the wondrous Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਦਰਿ ਅਵਲੋਕਨ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਚਰਣਿ ਲਗਾਈ ॥

kar kirapaa prabh nadhar avalokan apunai charan lagaaee ||

Showing His Mercy, God has looked upon me with favor, and He has attached me to His feet.

~SGGS Ji ang 384

dhyāyan kṛte yajan yajñais

tretāyāḿ dvāpare 'rcayan

yad āpnoti tad āpnoti

kalau sańkīrtya keśavam

"Whatever is achieved by meditation in Satya-yuga, by the performance of sacrifice in Tretā-yuga,

and by the worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet in Dvāpara-yuga is obtained in the age of Kali simply by glorifying the name of Lord Keśava."

ਸਰਨਿ ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਰਵਣੁ ਜੈਸੇ ॥

saran dhukh bhanjan purakh niranjan saadhhoo sangath ravan jaisae ||

I have come to Your Sanctuary, Destroyer of pain; O Primal Immaculate Lord, may I dwell upon You in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

ਕੇਸਵ ਕਲੇਸ ਨਾਸ ਅਘ ਖੰਡਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀਵਤ ਦਰਸ ਦਿਸੇ ॥੨॥੯॥੧੨੫॥

kaesav kalaes naas agh khanddan naanak jeevath dharas dhisae ||2||9||125||

O Lord of beautiful hair, Destroyer of pain, Eradicator of sins, Nanak lives, gazing upon the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.

~SGGS Ji ang 829

tathā caivottamaḿ loke

tapaḥ śrī-hari-kīrtanam

kalau yuge viśeṣeṇa

viṣṇu-prītyai samācaret

"In this way the most perfect penance to be executed in this world is the chanting of the name of Lord Śrī Hari.

Especially in the age of Kali, one can satisfy the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu by performing sańkīrtana.''

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵਡੀ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ॥

har kee vaddiaaee vaddee hai har keerathan har kaa ||

Great is the Greatness of the Lord, and the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵਡੀ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਨਿਆਉ ਹੈ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ॥

har kee vaddiaaee vaddee hai jaa niaao hai dhharam kaa ||

Great is the Greatness of the Lord; His Justice is totally Righteous.

~SGGS Ji ang 84

ਦੀਨਨ ਕੀ ਰੱਛਾ ਨਿਮਿਤ ਕਰ ਹੈ ਆਪ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਾਵਨ ਸਦਾ ਆਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੈ ਆਇ ॥

Deenan kirachchhaadnimit kar hai aap upaae|| Param purakh paavan sadaa aap pragad hai aae||

For the protection of the helpless and suffering humanity the Lord Himself will take some measure and He will manifest Himself as the Supreme Purusha;

ਆਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੈ ਆਇ ਦੀਨ ਰੱਛਾ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਣ ॥ ਅਵਤਾਰੀਸ ਵਤਾਰ ਧਰਾ ਕੇ ਭਾਰ ਉਤਾਰਣ ॥੧੩੯॥

aaP pragad hai aae deen rachchhaadke kaaran|| Avtaaris vataar dharaa ke bhaar utaaran||139||

For the protection of the lowly and for ending the burden of the earth, the Lord will incarnate Himself.139.

ਕਲਜੁਗ ਕੇ ਅੰਤਹ ਸਮੈ ਸਤਿਜੁਗ ਲਾਗਤ ਆਦਿ ॥ ਦੀਨਨ ਕੀ ਰੱਛਾ ਲੀਏ ਧਰਿ ਹੈ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਦ ॥

Kaljug ke antah samai sat(i)jug laagad aadh|| Deenan kirachchhaadleee dhar(i) hai roop anaad||

At the end of the Iron Age and by the very beginning of Satyuga, the Lord will incarnate Himself for the protection of the lowly,

ਧਰਿ ਹੈ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਦ ਕਲਹਿ ਕਵਤਕ ਕਹ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਸ਼ੱਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਸਾਰਥ ਨਮਿਤ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥੧੪੦॥

Dhar(i) hai roop anaad kalah(i) kavtak kah bhaari Shattran ke naasaarath namit avtaar avtdaree||140||

And will perform wonderful sports and in this way the incarnated Purusha will come for the destruction of the enemies.140.

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ਛੰਦ ॥

Sorthaa Chhand||

SWAYYA STANZA

ਪਾਪ ਸੰਬੂਹ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ਕਉ ਕਲਿਕੀ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਵਹਗੇ ॥ ਤੁਰਕੱਛਿ ਤੁਰੰਗ ਸਪੱਛ ਬਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਢ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖਪਾਵਹਗੇ ॥

Paap sanbooh binaasan kau Kalikiavtaar kahaavahge|| Turkachchh(i) turang sapachchh bado kar(i) kaadh||

For the destruction of the sins, he will be called the Kalki incarnation and mounting on a horse and taking the sword, he will destroy all;

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) pg. 1150

SB 12.2.21:After all the impostor kings have been killed, the residents of thecities and towns will feel the breezes carrying the most sacredfragrance of the sandalwood paste and other decorations of Lord Vāsudeva, and their minds will thereby become transcendentally pure.

SB 12.2.22: When Lord Vāsudeva,the Supreme Personality of Godhead, appears in their hearts in Histranscendental form of goodness, the remaining citizens will abundantlyrepopulate the earth.

SB 12.2.23: When the Supreme Lord has appeared on earth as Kalki, the maintainer of religion, Satya-yuga will begin, and human society will bring forth progeny in the mode of goodness.

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬਸੰਤ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਹ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰਹ ॥

ghatt ghatt basanth baasudhaeveh paarabreham paramaesureh ||

The Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent, Luminous Lord, dwells in each and every heart.

ਜਾਚੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੰ ਨਹ ਬਿਸਰੰਤਿ ਨਹ ਬਿਸਰੰਤਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਹ ॥੨੧॥

jaachanth naanak kirapaal prasaadhan neh bisaranth neh bisaranth naaraaeineh ||21||

Nanak begs for this blessing from the Merciful Lord, that he may never forget Him, never forget Him.

~SGGS Ji ang 1356

It is clear from the quotes from Hindu scriptures that you have given that the Devi and Krishan speak of themselvesas being Nirguna Brahman, creator, destroyer and preserver alike.According to Gurbani, they are no more Nirguna Brahman than you or I.Tell me, do you think that the Gurus would have written tuks like thefollowing if they had bought into these beliefs?

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

The goddess Durga takes refuge at the feet of Eternal and abides there.

How is the same as Durga saying "I am the eternal, I create and destroy"?

Every morning we recite the following in Shabad Hazarey:

* ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਉਬਾਰ ਨ ਸਕਹੈ ਜਾਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਰਟੈ ਹੈ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸੂਰਹ ਸਸਿ ਤੇ ਬਸਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ॥੧ (ਸ. ਹਜਾਰੇ)

* Ram and Rahim whose names you are uttering cant save you. Brahma,Vishnu Shiva, Sun and Moon, all are subject to the power of Death.1.

What school of Vaishnavism teaches that Vishnu cannot save you and will die as you and I will die?

The problem is not Bhagavan Krishan or Devi, but the fact that both illustrate two natures. Look again at the subtle concept I cited from Bhagavad-Gita.

BG 7.4: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.

BG 7.5: Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.

BG 7.6: All created beings have their source in these two natures.Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, knowfor certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

BG 7.7: O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

The material energies are part of what is God but separated from God because of the nature of creation and the power of illusion. But there is a superior energy of God within the living beings. Don't you see this duality being explained here isn't just for Krishan Ji and Devi? It's a direct symbolic reference to the duality existing in all of us.

As the individual jeev, finite, in mode of suffering and avidya, identified with the ego, perishable and passing away... absolutely we are NOT the Parabrahm. So in the symbology, this is absolutely the truth about avataray and devatay. They are part of the material universe, the three gunas and veil of mayayog. All here are finite, deluded and will die.

But is that the whole story jio?

Do you understand the power of a concept of the infinite pervading within the finite? Mathematically how could this be represented? It can't. If the infinite is pervading within the finite, then there is some hidden aspect of the finite which in reality is infinte. We know it's not the jeev. We know it's not the sargun forms of devatay and avtaray. But does this mean there is no inifinity pervading behind those forms in greater and lesser degrees as the REAL essence?

In Swami Chidbhavananda'stranslation of the Bhagavad Gita, he gives an opposite interpretationof the same verse, 7:24, "men of poor understanding think of Me, theunmanifest, as having manifestation, not knowing My supreme state,immutable and unsurpassed." Swami Chidbhavananda, holding Advaita views, gives more importance to God being formless while Srila Prabhupada, following Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy, gives importance to God with form. Ramakrishna analogized God with form and without form as being like ice and liquid water, as being both the same but in different states. Vishnu Sahasranama

You are back to the same philosophical construction of God being forever separate from His creation. But is that what Gurbani teaches? I thought it was you who told me about advaitvaad in Gurbani? Do you think this reflects Advaita philosophy? We already know that the jeev is not fundamental. "I am not my body, I am not my mind." What is most fundamental is not my personality or my identity in sansaar. All this will pass away. But hiding at the heart of things in fundamental essence, Soham Hamsa: "I am THAT. THAT is I"

ਤਤੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈ ਸੋਹੰ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥

thath niranjan joth sabaaee sohan bhaedh n koee jeeo ||

The essence, the immaculate Lord, the Light of all - I am He and He is me - there is no difference between us.

~SGGS Ji ang 599

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਹੰ ਹੰਸਾ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਤਿਸੈ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥੧॥

naanak sohan hansaa jap jaapahu thribhavan thisai samaahi ||1||

O Nanak, chant the chant of 'Sohang hansaa' - 'He is me, and I am Him.' The three worlds are absorbed in Him.

~SGGS Ji ang 1093

Soham Hamsa is a very potent yoga mantra.

Soham (so 'ham सो ऽहम्) is the Sanskrit for "I myself" or "It is I". Inextricably linked with hamsa (हंस in Sanskrit), soham is a voiceless mantra and as such used notably on its own, in the meditation practice ajapa japa and in the kriya practice shabda sanchalana...

Air is exhaled with the sound SA and inhaled with the sound HAM. Then reciting of the mantra HAMSA is continuous

—

Vijnana Bhairava

,

So 'ham in mystical interpretations suggests the identification or dissolution of the Ego with the "Other": "That I Am". When the "I" merges with the "That", the ego of the "I" identity merges with the Other, who is Ishvara of the Vedas, Brahman of the Upanishads, Bhagavan of the Puranas.

"Sa" in Sanskrit is the combination of the "lifeless" (or, static) consonant S with the dynamic vowel A – that is, with the meaning of Prana or vital force. Also Sa is Vishnu and Shiva according to the Vedic Nirukta. The Sandhi means Yoga (union) or self realization.

The meaning of the phrase might be expressed as follows: "I" am obviously not this body because the physical constituents of the body are changing every moment. Ultimately, the body dies. Atman the soul or self never dies – it is "That". "That" is Absolute Reality. It is the witness of all, it is what the mind does through the body. This self is always on the path of progression, which according to Shaivistic thought is Chaitanya or consciousness. The Shiva Sutra speaks of ‘Chaitanyam – Atma’. Consequently, Aham, myself, is Sah, that Self. This is called spiritual awareness. Soham

So we can see the relationship with NAAM abiyaas sas giraas simran and the Soham kriya mantra. But most importantly the article illustrates the traditional Hindu belief that the Eka who is Ishvara is also Brahman is also Bhagavan. Sanatana Dharma doesn't limit Bhagavan Krishna to sarguna only. Bhagavad-Gita isn't some egotistical boasting of a petty false god trying to pretend to be the real deal. That kind of perception is really foolish. First of all Gurbani doesn't say Krishna is filled with ego. It says that Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh, in aspect of the trimurthi which is thrai gun, and under delusion of Maya, are filled with ego.

"What school of Vaishnavism teaches that Vishnu cannot save you and will die as you and I will die?"

Veer ji, you sound like a Christian. Vishnu cannot save you and will die but Jesus rose from the dead and he alone can save you? Lol. Seriously, I wanted to point out the Abrahamic philosophy in your perspective. Vishnu isn't a false god, like Satan contrasted with a true God, like Jesus. Please try to look at it from an Eastern world-view. If you want to understand Vishnu, you have to go a little deeper.

The traditional Sanskrit explanation of the name Viṣṇu involves the root viś, meaning "to settle, to enter", or also (in the Rigveda) "to pervade", and a suffix nu, translating to approximately "the All-Pervading One". An early commentator on the Vedas, Yaska, in his Nirukta, defines Vishnu as 'vishnuvishateh; one who enters everywhere', and 'yad vishito bhavati tadvishnurbhavati; that which is free from fetters and bondages is Vishnu.' Adi Sankara in his commentary on , the thousand namees of Vishnu, states derivation from this root, with a meaning "presence everywhere" ("As he pervades everything, vevesti, he is called Visnu",). Vishnu itself is the second name in the sahasranama. Adi Sankara states (regarding , 3.1.45): "The Power of the Supreme Being has entered within the universe. The root Viś means 'enter into.'" Swami Chinmayananda, in his translation of Vishnu sahasranama further elaborates on that verse: The root Vismeans to enter. The entire world of things and beings is pervaded byHim and the Upanishad emphatically insists in its mantra "whatever thatis there is the world of change." Hence, it means that He is notlimited by space, time or substance. Chinmayananda states that whichpervades everything is Vishnu.

What you are saying is that the All-Pervading is not Nirguna Brahman. But the very characteristic of All-Pervading is infinite, and can only be nirgun aspect. Vishnu in greater aspect is NOT the trai guna of Mayavaad, but is in actuality the All-pervading quality of the Nirguna. So you do not understand what Vishnu is to think only in terms of demi-god. And the reason for the confusion is the association because of the dual nature. The entire created universe is pervaded by Nirguna. Yet, the created universe is entangled in the guna qualities, anger, greed, lust, and deluded by mayayog. So the dual nature of these qualities, the limitations of sarguna as well as the Oneness of Nirguna are represented. But we know that beyond the world of form and the limitations of duality consciousness that all is One and everything is only He. So how can it be true that Devi and Krishan Ji are no more nirguna than you or I?

Soham Hamsa!

Devi worshippers see Devi as identical withNirguna Brahman, Vaishnavssay the same thing about Krishan, Shaivitessay that Shiva is Sadashiv himself. None of these views are in line with Gurbani.

Really?

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥

bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||

You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥

gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||

The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥

baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||

O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||

Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥

dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||

Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥

kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||

Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||

The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥

akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||

His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥

eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||

The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥

aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||

Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 469

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹੈ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥੬॥

vaddaa saahib hai aap alakh apaaraa ||6||

The Great Lord Master is unfathomable and infinite. ||6||

ਤੇਰੇ ਬੰਕੇ ਲੋਇਣ ਦੰਤ ਰੀਸਾਲਾ ॥

thaerae bankae loein dhanth reesaalaa ||

Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful.

ਸੋਹਣੇ ਨਕ ਜਿਨ ਲੰਮੜੇ ਵਾਲਾ ॥

sohanae nak jin lanmarrae vaalaa ||

Your nose is so graceful, and Your hair is so long.

ਕੰਚਨ ਕਾਇਆ ਸੁਇਨੇ ਕੀ ਢਾਲਾ ॥

kanchan kaaeiaa sueinae kee dtaalaa ||

Your body is so precious, cast in gold.

ਸੋਵੰਨ ਢਾਲਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮਾਲਾ ਜਪਹੁ ਤੁਸੀ ਸਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥

sovann dtaalaa kirasan maalaa japahu thusee sehaeleeho ||

His body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate on Him, O sisters.

ਜਮ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਹੁ ਖੜੀਆ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਮਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥

jam dhuaar n hohu kharreeaa sikh sunahu mehaeleeho ||

You shall not have to stand at Death's door, O sisters, if you listen to these teachings.

~SGGS Ji ang 567

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥

kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||

Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥

pehil purasaabiraa ||

First of all, there was only the Primal Being.

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥

athhon purasaadhamaraa ||

From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥

asagaa as ousagaa ||

All that is, is His.

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਬਾਗਰਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਪਿੰਧੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਗਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

har kaa baagaraa naachai pindhhee mehi saagaraa ||1|| rehaao ||

In this Garden of the Lord, we all dance, like water in the pots of the Persian wheel. ||1||Pause||

ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਗੋਪੀ ਜੰਨਾ ॥

naachanthee gopee jannaa ||

Women and men both dance.

ਨਈਆ ਤੇ ਬੈਰੇ ਕੰਨਾ ॥

neeaa thae bairae kannaa ||

There is no other than the Lord.

ਤਰਕੁ ਨ ਚਾ ॥

tharak n chaa ||

Don't dispute this,

ਭ੍ਰਮੀਆ ਚਾ ॥

bhrameeaa chaa ||

and don't doubt this.

ਕੇਸਵਾ ਬਚਉਨੀ ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

kaesavaa bachounee aeeeae meeeae eaek aan jeeo ||2||

The Lord says, ""This creation and I are one and the same."

~SGGS Ji ang 693

ਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਗੁਨੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਈ ਪੜਿ ਸੂਆ ਗਨਕ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥

sangath kaa gun bahuth adhhikaaee parr sooaa ganak oudhhaarae ||

The virtues of the Sangat, the Holy Congregation, are so very great. Even the prostitute was saved,

by teaching the parrot to speak the Lord's Name.

What was the NAAM the prostitute Ganaka taught the parrot to speak? It was Ram.

ਪਰਸ ਨਪਰਸ ਭਏ ਕੁਬਿਜਾ ਕਉ ਲੈ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਿ ਸਿਧਾਰੇ ॥੧॥

paras naparas bheae kubijaa ko lai baikunth sidhhaarae ||1||

Krishna was pleased, and so he touched the hunch-back Kubija, and she was transported to the heavens.

It wasn't "heavens" as English has rendered, it was Vaikunth, abode of the Lord Vishnu.

ਅਜਾਮਲ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ਕੀਨੀ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਬੋਲਾਰੇ ॥

ajaamal preeth puthr prath keenee kar naaraaein bolaarae ||

Ajaamal loved his son Naaraayan, and called out his name.

ਮੇਰੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਮਾਰਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥੨॥

maerae thaakur kai man bhaae bhaavanee jamakankar maar bidhaarae ||2||

His loving devotion pleased my Lord and Master, who struck down and drove off the Messengers of Death.

~SGGS Ji ang 981

Ajamal was saved from the jams by pronouncing the NAAM Narayana. Who is Narayana in this famous story?

"Narayana (Sanskrit: नारायण; nārāyaṇa) or Narayan is an important Sanskrit name for Vishnu, and in many contemporary vernaculars a common Indian name. Narayana is also identified as the original man, Purusha. The Puranas present divergent views on Narayana. In the Kurma Purana he is identified with Brahman and Krishna-Vishnu, but in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana Narayana is considered different from Krishna and also considered part of Krishna...

InSanskrit, another name for water is 'Naara'. The Supreme LordVishnu whose resting place ('Ayana') is 'Naara' is therefore calledNaarayana."Naara" also means the living entities (Jivas). Therefore,another meaning of Naarayana is 'resting place for all livingentities. The close association of Narayana with water explains thefrequent depiction of Narayana in Hindu art as standing or sitting on anocean.Another important translation of Narayana is "The supreme Man who is the foundation of all men." Narayana

As to your claims that Singh Sabha was an attempt to rid Sikhi of its "Sanatan" heritage, it was Dasmesh Pita Himself who said

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

What greater rejection of Sanatanmat could there be?

ਤੁਹੀ ਰਾਜਸੀ ਸਾਤਕੀ ਤਾਮਸੀ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਬਾਲਕਾ ਬਿੱ੍ਰਧਣੀ ਅਉ ਜੁਆ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਦਾਨਵੀ ਦੇਵਣੀ ਜੱਛਣੀ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਿੰਨ੍ਰਣੀ ਮੱਛਣੀ ਕੱਛਣੀ ਹੈ ॥੪੨੮॥ तुही राजसी सातकी तामसी है ॥ तुही बालका बि्रधणी अउ जुआ है ॥ तुही दानवी देवणी ज्छणी है ॥ तुही किंन्रणी म्छणी क्छणी है ॥४२८॥

Thou art Rajas, tamas and Sattva, the three modes of maya; Thou art the three ages of life i.e. childhood, youth and old age; Thou art demoness, goddess and Dakshini; Thou art also Kinnar-woman, fish-girt and Kashyap-woman.428.

ਤੁਹੀ ਦੇਵਤੇਸ਼ੇਸ਼ਣੀ ਦਾਨਵੇਸਾ ॥ ਸਰਹ ਬ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਣੀ ਹੈ ਤੁਹੀ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਭੇਸਾ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਰਾਜ ਰਾਜੇਸ਼੍ਵਰੀ ਜੋਗ ਮਾਯਾ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਮੋਹ ਸੋ ਚਉਦਹੂੰ ਲੋਕ ਛਾਯਾ ॥੪੨੯॥ तुही देवतेशेशणी दानवेसा ॥ सरह ब्रिशटणी है तुही असत्र भेसा ॥ तुही राज राजेश्वरी जोग माया ॥ महा मोह सो चउदहूं लोक छाया ॥४२९॥

Thou art the power of gods and the vision of the demons; Thou art the steel-striker and wielder of arms; Thou art Rajrajeshwari and Yogmaya and there is the prevalence of your maya in all the fourteen worlds.429.

ਤੁਹੀਬ੍ਰਾਹਮੀਬੈਸ਼ਨਵੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਬਾਸਵੀ ਈਸ਼੍ਵਰੀ ਕਾਰਤਕਯਾਨੀ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਅੰਬਕਾਦੁਸ਼ਟਹਾ ਮੁੰਡਮਾਲੀ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਸ਼ਟ ਹੰਤੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੀ ॥੪੩੦॥ तुहीब्राहमीबैशनवी स्री भवानी ॥ तुही बासवी ईश्वरी कारतकयानी ॥ तुही अमबकादुशटहा मुंडमाली ॥ तुही कशट हंती क्रिपा कै क्रिपाली ॥४३०॥

Thou art the power the of Brahmani, Vaishnavi, Bhavani, Basavi, Parvati and Kartikeya; Thou art Ambika and the wearer of the necklace of skulls; O Goddess! Thou art the destroyer of the sufferings of all and also gracious towards all.430.

ਤੁਮੀਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹਿਰੰਨਾਛ ਮਾਰਯੋ ॥ ਹਰੰਨਾਕਸ਼ੰ ਸਿੰਘਣੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਪਛਾਰਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਬਾਵਨੀਹ੍ਵੈ ਤਿਨੋ ਲੋਗ ਮਾਪੇ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨੋ ਕੀਏ ਜੱਛ ਥਾਪੇ ॥੪੩੧॥ तुमीब्राहमणी ह्वै हिरंनाछ मारयो ॥ हरंनाकशं सिंघणी ह्वै पछारयो ॥ तुमी बावनीह्वै तिनो लोग मापे ॥ तुमी देव दानो कीए ज्छ थापे ॥४३१॥

As the power of Brahm and as the lion, Thou didst overthrow Hiranyakashipu;Thou didst measure the three worlds as the power of Vaman and Thou didst establish the gods, demons and Yakshas.431.

ਤੁਮੀਰਾਮਹ੍ਵੈਕੈ ਦਸਾਗ੍ਰੀਵ ਖੰਡਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੰਸ ਕੇਸੀ ਬਿਹੰਡਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀਜਾਲਪਾਹ੍ਵੈ ਬਿੜਾਲਾਛ ਘਾਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਸੁੰਭ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੈਸੁੰਭ ਦਾਨੋ ਖਪਾਯੋ ॥੪੩੨॥ तुमीरामह्वैकै दसाग्रीव खंडयो ॥ तुमी क्रिशन ह्वै कंस केसी बिहंडयो ॥ तुमीजालपाह्वै बिड़ालाछ घायो ॥ तुमी सु्मभ सु्मभ नैसु्मभ दानो खपायो ॥४३२॥

Thou didst kill Ravana as Ram; Thou didst kill the demon Keshi as Krishna;Thou didst annihilate the demon Biraksha as Jalapa and Thou didst destroy the demons Sumbh and Nisumbh.432.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ दोहरा ॥

DOHRA

ਦਾਸ ਜਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਦਾਸ ਪਰਿ ਕੀਜੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਹਾਥ ਦੈ ਰਾਖ ਦੈ ਰਾਖ ਮੁਹਿ ਮਨ ਕ੍ਰਮ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੩॥ दास जान करि दास परि कीजै क्रिपा अपार ॥ हाथ दै राख दै राख मुहि मन क्रम बचन बिचार ॥४३३॥

Considering me as Thy slave, be Gracius towards me and keep Thy hand over my head and protect me with Thy mind, action, speech and thought.433.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥ चौपई ॥

CHUPAI

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥

Idonot adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishnaand Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do notrecognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal.434.

ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਲੋਹ ਮੈਂ ਕਿੰਕਰ ਥਾਰੋ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਰਖਵਾਰ ॥ ਬਾਹਿ ਗਹੇ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੫॥ महाकाल रखवार हमारो ॥ महा लोह मैं किंकर थारो ॥ अपना जान करो रखवार ॥ बाहि गहे की लाज बिचार ॥४३५॥

The Supreme Kal is my Protector and O Steel-Purusha Lord ! I am Thy slave; Protect me, considering me as Thy own and do me the honour of catching my arm.435.

ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਮੁਝੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਰੀਐ ॥ ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਸ਼ੱਤੁ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਰੀਐ ॥ ਦੇਗ ਤੇਗ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਦੋਊ ਚਲੈ ॥ ਰਾਖ ਆਪ ਮੁਹਿ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦਲੈ ॥੪੩੬॥ अपना जान मुझे प्रतिपरीऐ ॥ चुन चुन श्तु हमारे मरीऐ ॥ देग तेग जग मै दोऊ चलै ॥ राख आप मुहि अउरु न दलै ॥४३६॥

Sustainme, considering me as Thy own and destroy my enemies, picking them up;OLord with Thy Grace, let the free kitchen and Sword ever flourishthrough me and none should be able to kill me except You.436.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) p. 733

Whatkind of "rejection" starts by saying the eternal GOD is in the threegunas, rajo, samo, tatto and hence pervading within the three mahadevasBrahma, Shiva, Vishnu, in the devas and asuras, and in the Das Avtarasand the Great Maha Devi?

Whose NAAMS are called as Supreme Lord direct from Puranas?

And whose NAAM of KAL is in fact Kali aspect of Chandi aspect of Eternal Devi?

Please explain the rejection. Since, if there was a true "rejection" God would not be called Hari, Narayana, Keshava, Krishna, Murali, Jagannatha, Gopala, Kal, etc. What you keep failing to realize is Sanatana Dharma teaches the exact same interpretation as Guru ji's bani! All these are temporary forms, manifestations of the One Eternal Unity. But that Eternal One is all-pervading all these forms and greater than these forms. And hence, there cannot be rejection of that through which the Divine is Himself manifesting.

Rejection means, rejection. How can bani say The One eternal Lord is manifesting as das avataras, and at same time avataray are "rejected?" Whatis "rejected" is the limitation of the sargun form for worship, andassertion, in line with Puranas that the Nirgun is Supreme.

NOTHING contradicts or rejects Vaishnavmat. Yourclaim of rejection fails when in same breath we recite bani calling theEternal Divine as NAAMS of avtaray and devatay who are supposed to be"rejected." Only explanation is direct from teaching of Puranas, thatthe Supreme has become all the manifestations. Just as it says inGurbani.

With due respect, this sounds like nothing but an attempt to bring Hindumat into Gurmat through the back door.

Even as entire history, language, and heritage of Shishyas of Guru Nanak were from within the Hindumat orientation? Even as the very terms and concepts within Gurmat are from the Hindumat orientation? Even as the definitions of God, devatay, avtaray, mukti, reincarnation, khands/lokas, imagery: 4 arms, blue skin, conch, chakr, lotus, etc all originate from Hindumat?

How is it then you feel free to pick and choose only certain concepts from Hindumat, as if you could alter them enough to stick a Sikh label on while loudly blaring Hindumat is false? What part of Hindumat exactly is false? The distortions you and the Singh Sabhias claim Hindumat to be? Have I not already shown you, from Hindumat, that Hindumat doesn't teach worship of the devatay? Yet, every time you want to distinguish Sikhism from Hindumat, you make the same worn out false allegations. It's beyond obvious that Guruji was well versed and understood the Hindu scriptures and their mystery teachings. As it is equally clear Guruji incorporated those same philosophical concepts into Gurmat.

Gurbani and Dasam Granth in particular is very clear that avatars like Krishan were full of ego who asked their devotees to worship them.

Is that simplistic travesty of an interpretation actually the teaching of Bhagavan Krishan? Or was it the bani of an avatara explaining the transcendence of the Divine as nirguna aspect from perspective of having brahmgyaan, where He was merged with the Divine nature?

BG 7.4: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.

BG 7.5: Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.

BG 7.6: All created beings have their source in these two natures. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

BG 7.7: O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

BG 7.8: O son of Kuntī, I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable oḿ in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.

BG 7.9: I am the original fragrance of the earth, and I am the heat in fire. I am the life of all that lives, and I am the penances of all ascetics.

BG 7.10: O son of Pṛthā, know that I am the original seed of all existences, the intelligence of the intelligent, and the prowess of all powerful men.

BG 7.11: I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire. I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles, O lord of the Bhāratas [Arjuna].

BG 7.12: Know that all states of being — be they of goodness, passion or ignorance — are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

BG 7.13: Deluded by the three modes [goodness, passion and ignorance], the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible.

BG 7.14: This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.

BG 7.15: Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, who are lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me.

BG 7.16: O best among the Bhāratas, four kinds of pious men begin to render devotional service unto Me — the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.

BG 7.17: Of these, the one who is in full knowledge and who is always engaged in pure devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me.

BG 7.18: All these devotees are undoubtedly magnanimous souls, but he who is situated in knowledge of Me I consider to be just like My own self. Being engaged in My transcendental service, he is sure to attain Me, the highest and most perfect goal.

BG 7.19: After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

BG 7.20: Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

BG 7.21: I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.

BG 7.22: Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

BG 7.23: Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

BG 7.24: Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.

BG 7.25: I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible.

It isn't Krishan the physical avatar speaking, but the expansion of the One eternal Narayana.

Yes forums are really the place to share deeply personal and profoundly moving things in order that people who don't even know you can judge, condemn, ridicule and sweep under the carpet of their choice. Do you at least see why people are unwilling to share on this level? These kinds of things are really private. The person having such an experience is gaining an understanding on more than just the intellectual level. He doesn't have to answer to anybody else's opinions of what is right or wrong about it.

Gurmukho, please discuss. Would you change your convictions if you comeacross a miracle/experience or see a dream of devi/pir or whatever?

Isn't Gurmat bigger than miracles or some experiences?

Please allow me to pose the question a little differently. Would you change your beliefs about reality if you had an experience which gave you a new insight into that reality?

Now allow me to qualify without revealing too much. An experience is something with the power to open your heart and mind. It's not a dream or an imaginary image. Allow me to say this much also, something which is a deeply held belief, while sincere and true is only an understanding you have at the time. If the same person has a profound experience, naturally their beliefs will change, because they are no longer based on what he thinks but what he now knows.

A lot of people have had near death experiences. They claim to have seen Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, angels, God, etc, with incredible variety all influenced by previously existing cultural beliefs. Who can say it's wrong or right because it doesn't conform to "our" structure of belief? Maybe all these images are only representations of the mind for experiences which are actually deeper and quite beyond our ability to comprehend?

It's a bit unusual to have no real belief in something and then to have a direct experience of it. Some have claimed mischievous beings are luring you away from the true path. I have a little different take on the matter, having had such an experience myself.

I will give you a hint. I never saw any lady on a tiger.

I didn't say I had darshan of a devi. I said I had darshan of Devi.

I was walking away from a sant who was in Devi bhava, and thousands of people were there in a huge crowd. As I was walking away from the sant, I lost my ordinary consciousness and everything went dark because suddenly, as I was sitting into the chair, there was this amazing Presence right beside and within me, in fact there really wasn't any concept of spatial distance. This incredibly brilliant Light was shining so brightly that the whole room went dark and essentially everything and everyone faded away. There was no other reality. I didn't see any form, just this brilliant golden white Light shining more powerfully than the sun. It radiated all the way to the top of the building and beyond. It was just Pure LIGHT. And being in the Presence of that Divine Light, and I knew instinctively it was Devi Ma, my Divine Mother, My Father my ALL, no one told me.

And I said, "Amma, Amma" with tears streaming down my face and with my whole heart and soul exposed to the Light and I knew the Light loved me. Because the Light was pure love of a mother and I felt very tiny in it's Presence. And the Presence was so exhilarating it was all I wanted to live for. It was what I had come into this world to find. It was the reason for being born. And I wanted to die in that moment, because nothing in my life could compare to the radiance, to the glory of this Great Good Light. And tears were streaming down because I felt so unworthy to be in that Presence of Divine Love. I was aware of my separation and the limits of my mentality and my impurities of mind and heart. And I wanted to be in that Presence always, to be das of, to bow down to, to sing the praises of Her unimaginable glory. My life is the footstool of the Divine Beloved who wears whatever face we can perceive Him with. I did not want my life anymore, so great was the Divine Glory. I wanted to just lose myself forever in the brilliant Light Presence of Divine Mother. Because I had nothing. I am nothing. And coming back to ordinary consciousness was like a grief of separation to my soul.

You know, I don't know how to describe what the glory was like. But it was a definite brilliant Light Presence. It was a Divine Being, the eternal God and also radiating from within my own soul. And just being in that Presence, you want to touch the ground in humility. You instinctively want to bow yourself down because you are keenly aware of your shortcomings. In fact, you want to kiss the very ground where the Light is touching. But the glory was like something not of this world. When I had these experiences I knew things that were going to happen. Like I knew I would have a car accident, and some other things that would happen. I knew things, not because I'm so great, but from being in the Presence of something which was so Great it was beyond our ordinary understanding of time and space. Like I was just made aware of stuff. But I can't remember all the things I knew when I was in that consciousness.

I can tell you this. Sikhi is the deepest truth. But it is not the only expression of deepest truth in the world. And it is not in contradiction to universal truth which human beings understand at different levels but is still leading to the same ultimate truth.

I can tell you this. We are supposed to deeply and profoundly love and care for each other, and that defense of a Khalsa is protective because it comes from cherishing the Light which resides in the living beings. And it isn't a cowardly love. It is a Pure Force which has the power to be a terror to evil while not itself becoming evil.

I can tell you this. Reconciliation is in the Light which hides at the heart of all things. Not separate temporary identities, but actual merging into each other, so that the suffering of the lowliest becomes my own. When I can truly cherish without division, like a Divine Mother and like a Divine Father I can help to heal the causes of suffering. Just as the Light loves us, we are supposed to be the Light of Love in this world of darkness and ignorance. That is our purpose. That is why we are here. We are supposed to give ourselves away as a sacrifice of love to bring comfort and protection and peace to all who need.

Now I don't say I'm all those things. I'm not holy, I'm a sinful, selfish person filled with ignorance and ego. But that was the glory I understood being in the Presence of Divine Light. I understood self-sacrifice and surrender to Divine Love is our purification. When we take this message to heart, we will actually become that which we know is holy.

"Would you change your convictions"

What we think is right, and what we know is right are sometimes not the same. If you have a profound life-changing experience, you aren't so much worried about other people's opinions or what they think is right. It's not that you change your convictions at all, but you move out of the little box of what everybody says Truth is supposed to be limited to.

"Isn't Gurmat bigger than miracles or some experiences?"

Guru's teachings are One with the eternal Truth. But you must understand how limited we are in comprehending the fullness of that truth. Nobody can put Gurmat, into their hip pocket and become oppositional to the things we can't even understand. Because Gurmat is actually flowing though life itself and all our experiences, mundane and profound. Gurmat is eternal Truth, and the eternal Truth is always here with us. It is right beside us in our very own hearts and minds. It flows through our every breath, within, throughout, beyond and always. But Gurmat isn't limited to any interpretations of Singh Sabhias. Gurmat is in the ancient past and the distant future. Gurmat is also God's Divine Presence. And there isn't any miracle bigger than that.

Gurmat is the boat of mukti and it is forever singing in unheard spaces. It is enlivening every nerve and nadi. It is the eternal bani which is praising forever the greatness of God. And every little miracle along the way, however small or foolishly perceived, is another praise of His infinite Glory. There is no opposition between one kind of understanding of truth and another. Truth is always truth, within us and without us.

Now you may all make fun of my foolishness as you like.

gurus denounced (as far as im aware) that empty rituals are worthless, so what is wrong with saying it?

Guru Sahibaan corrected the hypocrisy of the people who would wear religious clothes and perform religious practices without having any guidance of a Satguru and undergo no change at all. The people who memorized Vedas and had book learning but despised lower caste even as the All-Pervading was residing in their lower caste neighbor are in fact hypocrites, as Guru Ji says.

The ERROR is the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha reform movement, whom British were the patron, distorted Sikh knowledge by defining Hindu religion as being exactly all the criticisms of Guru Sahib. The first error this does is create impression that Sikhs are somehow exempt from Guruji's criticisms because we are not Hindus, as if it were a correction only for Hindus. In reality, everybody as the time was either Hindustani or Turak. Guruji says the religions of all the people are blind. Why? Because only the Satguru has sight. This does not mean that Hindu religion or Islam is false. It means people without guidance have lost their legs.

The ERROR of the Tat Khalsas have DEFINED Hindu religion as BEING "worthless, empty rituals, worship of demi-gods, without mukti, hypocritical and evil religious practices. That is the error. And if Sikhs themselves would take to heart the Gurmat message, it would be to evaluate all the ways in which we are living outside of Guruji's guidance or being our own guides. Do you really think the longest dhari is a sign of holiness and that hasn't become useless ritualism in it's own right? Do you really think those "sinful" shavers and cutters are more evil and less close to God?

You see, what the Tat Khalsa reform movement has done is POLITICIZED the Guru's teachings to make exclusionary and use to condemn own Sikhs rather than guide Sikhs to holiness and closeness with the Guru God. And it doesn't just apply to presumed "evil and superstitious Hindus" but to everybody in own Quam who isn't conforming to the "Tat Khalsa," and not some pretended "Gurmat" ideal.

So now, regardless the condition of a person's heart, if he has kirpan hanging from gatra at all times, it's a mark of holiness. And seriously show me this hasn't become a new kind of blind ritualism. Because I know plenty of amritdharis who are FAR from the boat of mukti.

Did British edit texts? Absolutely, we know they did. Did British manipulate and distort Sikhism? Absolutely, we know they did, just look at life of Maharaja Dalip Singh. It isn't even a fair question. The problem is we really don't know to what extent British manipulated modern Sikhism. And the old Tat Khalsa bugaboo demonizing and blaming the traditional Mahants for all their problems carries no weight. The "evil" within Sikhism was never it's peaceful coexistence with Hinduism and even Islam. RATHER that was a hallmark feature of it's success as shown by excellent, respected and peaceful Sikh Kingdom under Maharaja Ranjit Singh.

But the growing Indian nationalism was a source of worry for the British. The growing unity between their own sepoy Army and the Indian nationalist movement against British rule was a concern. And I think we have to be honest with our history to analyze exactly WHAT was the message of the Tat Khalsa reform, because it has resulted in separatism, insisting upon independent identity, murmurs about creation of own Nation, etc. And ALL OF THAT was the British manipulation. Did you ever hear during time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh that Sikhs should be separate from Hindus and Hindustan? Sikhs had royal ruling families just like the Rajputs. But after stabbing Khalsa Raj in the back and destroying the Sikh Raj, British inculcated such sentiment as Khalsa Raj and talk of independant Khalistan while stabbing Sikhs in the back yet again with Jinnah and Nehru over partition. Partition had all along been intended by the British. And restoration of Khalsa Raj was never intended even as British secret services did all they could to make childless the heirs of Maharaja Dalip Singh.

In a tiny principality, which Punjab was by the time of partition, with a MINORITY how could Sikhs really have been taken in to believe the British or anyone would just hand them Rulership? It is a distorted and politicized belief that Khalsa Raj means running independent state of Khalistan. And who would run it? Badal? Vedanti? SGPC? Simranjit Singh Mann? Dal Khalsa? AKJ? Who? and more importantly, how?

The Sikh militancy for independent Khalistan movement failed. Why is this? Why didn't it have Guruji's blessings? Because it was a politicized corruption of the meaning of Khalsa Raj and would have led to worse situation as a profoundly militarily weak Punjab would already have fallen to the kind of violence tormenting Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Don't be naive on this point. The TIME for Khalsa Raj is not now. And the MEANING of Khalsa Raj is not yet understood by the general Panth. For one thing, absolutely the PURE ONES WILL RULE...but not just tiny nation-state of Khalistan. The PURE ONES, MAHATMAS, will rule all of India, all of the world, and universes upon universes...in the Sat Yuga. And they will rule free from corruptions. And Kalki avatar will lead the way.

So here is a perfect example of a wise teaching which got horribly distorted by mischievous British pretending to be patrons of Sikhs while at same time undermining, stabbing in the back and ENSURING they would NEVER AGAIN have the raj. IN FACT, it was the British intention to divide India and give Raj to Muslims in order to keep both sides Hidu majority AND Muslim majority WEAK so that after the war, British could come back in as "saviors" of the very mess they created. WHOLE HISTORY is about political manipulation and bold distortions.

The demand for partition of the Punjab was firstmooted by Master Tara Singh when Strafford Cripps announced his DraftDeclaration in 1942. In a memorandum to the Cripps Mission he demanded:'The Sikhs cannot attain their rightful position or can effectivelyprotect their interest unless the Punjab is redistributed into twoprovinces with River Ravi as boundary between them. If you can separateprovinces from India for the domination of Muslims, how can you refuseto separate a big area for protection of Sikhs from the rule of asingle community?' To counteract the Muslim League demand for a sovereign Muslim State, the Akali Dal put forward the demand for a Sikh state.

All this separatism based on "independent" religious identity was itself a British construction. It was what they used to divide the Nation. Khalistan is a political construction born in response to the division of Hindustan. Before the British and before the Singh Sabhian, there was actually a unity living in peace in the Sikh kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. All the exaggerated opposition to Hinduism, rejection and literal casting out of age-old sanatan philosophy and blatent reinterpretation of the bani was a result, not of Hindu evil, or even brahminvaadi corruption of Mahants, who had ALWAYS been sanataan as they were descended from Guruji's OWN SANSKRIT SCHOLARS!

Tell me, what Sanskrit scholar is NOT going to have Vedantic influence in interpretation? Is it NOT the Udasay and Nirmalay tradition to interpret Sikhi from within the Vedantic framework? And this is not to say that modern sampraday of Udasay and Nirmalay haven't also come under some degree of editing and influence of Singh Sabhian. But it is without a doubt that purataan sources of Sikhi are in fact sanataan and interpreting from within Vedantic framework. And therefore any modern re-interpretations intending deliberately to ALTER and EXCLUDE that Vedantic framework is the imposition. And as the Singh Sabha coincided with the mischievous activities of the British Raj and all their editing of scriptures, manipulation by embedding false prophecies, and originating from utter IGNORANCE of true Sanatan philosophy, their messy, blundering footprints are very easy to see. This is not to say the Singh Sabhian were insincere, or that among them were not great Sikhs, or even that they did not oppose British Raj. It is to say the radical rejection of Hinduism as the root and definition of Singh Sabha reforms was manipulated and exaggerated for British interests.

Look here at the dangerous, evil villains:

At some point we are going to have to look beyond ridiculous stereotyping and hundred year old hostilities. Who is the evil bugaboo who is a "threat to Sikh identity?" Is it 100 year old murals which show a decidedly sanatan face of Sikhi? Is it sampradayas who preserved Vedantic interpretations? Is it the peaceful Sant Mat tradition of Northern India which actually brought so much bhagat bani into existence? What do we gain by blaming blindly "brahmins," "mahants," purataan sampradayas and dera baba tradition? Will it erase the sanataan character and ideology from our very own "sanataan granths?"

Try to just imagine what Sikhi would have looked like at the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, when own state perform Devi pujas, when murthis were installed in Harimandir Sahib, when entire mainstream Panth was actually sanataan. And ask yourself honestly, was it Udasi sampradaya that had it all mixed up? Could Baba Shri Chand and Baba Gurditta Ji have been totally wrong about the interpretations of Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib Ji)? Or have we, in mode times, completely altered the traditional understanding in order to REJECT POLITICALLY Hindustani identity and create independent identity as dupes of British Raj? And this goes to analyzing everything Bikrami versus Nanakshahi calender, Anand Karaj, Khande Ki Pahul, actual Rehitnamay, mandatory Kakkars, role of women in the Panth, etc.

What is actually original? What is the modern revisionist invention? How much of modern Sikhism today has it's IDENTITY as how much it can OPPOSE the Hindu one? Because that really is a flimsy identity. No wonder people are all hysterical about losing it. But it's actually no identity at all which can stand on it's own two feet proudly embracing the richness of it's own historical heritage. It has to edit, whitewash, deny, denounce, reject, re-interpret, ignore the body of evidence. Because the body of evidence is that Sikhi originates within a Vedantic framework. All one has to do is read the Janam Sakhis. The only people who claim Guruji rejected "miracles" and "superstitions" are the ones who overlook the miracle stories in the earliest traditional accounts, or things like the rock at Panja Sahib.

Handprint of Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the rock at Panja Sahib.

People like to claim Guruji refuted the Saddhs. In actuality Guruji proved to the Saddhs He had bramgyaan and was Himself a saddh. How else can it be explained that Baba Shri Chand, Guruji's own son was a Saddhu? You see the "rejection story" is just a story. If you look at the overwhelming evidence, there's no rejection at all. And in fact, the Singh Sabha interpretations have zero evidence at all except texts with questionable editing made to speak the Singh Sabha political viewpoint.

Here's an example of placing a huge qualifier intended to officially REJECT certain beliefs and practices interpreting AS the True voice of Sikhism:

THE CODE OF SIKH CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS, Section Four, CHAPTER X

Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni), Article XVI

A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are:

a. Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.

b. Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.

c. Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity.

d. Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, days and occasions, influence of stars, horoscopic dispositions, Shradh (ritual serving of food to priests for the salvation of ancestor on appointed days as per the lunar calendar), Ancestor worship, khiah (ritual serving of food to priests - Brahmins - on the lunar anniversaries of death of an ancestor) (Two words, shradh and khiah, occuring in this clause connote what appears to be the same thing - the ritual serving of food to the priests (Brahmins). The difference between the connotations of the two words is implicit in the dates on which the ritual is performed. The ritual of serving of food on the lunar anniversary of the death goes by the name khiah; whereas the ritual of serving food on the lunar date corresponding to the date of death during the period of the year designated shradhs is known as sharadh.) pind (offering of funeral barley cakes to the deceased's relatives), patal (ritual donating of food in the belief that that would satisfy the hunger of a departed soul), diva (the ceremony of keeping an oil lamp lit for 360 days after the death, in the belief that that lights the path of the deceased), ritual funeral acts. hom (lighting of ritual fire and pouring intermittently clarified butter, food grains etc. into it for propitiating gods for the fulfilment of a purpose), jag (religious ceremony involving presentation of oblations), tarpan (libation), sikha-sut (keeping a tuft of hair on the head and wearing thread), bhadan (shaving of head on the death of a parent), fasting on new or full moon or other days, wearing of frontal marks on forehead, wearing of thread, wearing of a necklace of the pieces of tulsi (A plant with medicinal properties, Bot, Ocimum sanctum.), stalk, veneration of any graves, of monuments erected to honour the memory of a deceased person or of cremation sites, idolatry and such like superstitious observances (Most, though not all, rituals and ritual or religious observances listed in this clause are hindu rituals and observances. The reason is that the old rituals and practices, continues to be observed by large numbers of Sikhs even after their conversion from their old to new faith and a large bulk of the Sikhs novices were Hindu converts. Another reason for this phenomenon was the strangle hold of the Brahmin priest on Hindus' secular and religious life which the Brahmin priests managed to maintain even on those leaving the Hindu religious fold, by the his astute mental dexterity and rare capacity for compromise. That the Sikh novitiates included a sizeable number of Muslims is shown by inclusion in this clause of the taboos as to the sanctity of graves, shirni etc.)

Not owning up or regarding as hallowed any place other than the Guru's place- such, for instance, as sacred sports or places of pilgrimage of other faiths.

Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins' holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the Gayatri,(Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun) the Gita, the Quaran, the Bible, etc. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is admissible.

e. The Khalsa should maintain its distinctiveness among the professors of different religions of the world, but should not hurt the sentiments of any person professing another religion.

i. A Sikh should, in no way, harbour any antipathy to the hair of the head with which his child is born. He should not temper with the hair with which the child is born. He should add the suffix "Singh" to the name of his son & "Kaur" to the name of his daughter. A Sikh should keep the hair of his sons and daughters intact.

j. A Sikh must not take hemp (cannabis), opium, liquor, tobacco, in short, any intoxicant. His only routine intake should be food. k. Piercing of nose or ears for wearing ornaments is forbidden for Sikh men and women.

How can anyone who is intellectually honest reading the SGPC Sikh Rehat Maryada NOT see the obvious interpolation of political anti-Hinduism intended to reinterpret and expunge those sanataan elements which were historically a part of Sikhi? It is an imposition by force of officialdom and under threat of social boycott and excommunication that everybody should accept the Singh Sabha interpretations that GURMAT means REJECTING the traditional sanataan philosophies and interpretation and the political invention that Hindu religion MEANS blindly ritualistic superstition and shrewd manipulation at the hands of clever brahmin intelligentsia as a conspiracy of the corrupted evil Mahants against TRUE Sikhs.

To be honest, I find Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha-ism to be the most ridiculous philosophical world-view ever. It is most certainly NOT representative of Gurmat. NO ONE can interpret Gurmat except Guru. And almost everyone is wrong about some things. And it's not important if we "get it right" or not. TRUTH IS STILL TRUTH REGARDLESS OF OUR OPINIONS. It's not by article of FAITH and DECLARATION OF TRUE BELIEF which is our mode of mukti. And avoiding sanatan "rituals" can itself become a kind of blind ritualism. It's not by abstaining from rituals that one becomes holy either. Everything in sansaar is polluted. Our thoughts. our bodies. The pandit placing cow dung in his kitchen. The Tat Khalsas rejecting everything related to any pandit.

The boat of mukti is exactly that which was taught in the Puranas. Surrender to a Satguru. Nama Jap. And living one's life in consonance with the piare that embraces the world and lifts it toward God and not radically "rejecting" almost everything and everybody outside the Singh Sabha, not Gurmat definitions.

For a Sikh, it is Guru and God. There is no place for demi-gods or physical Krishnas. I agree that One who is pervading all is Parbraham is called Jaganath Gopal. Is this of any particular significance? Gopal is one of infinite kritam names of Lord.

Veer ji, do you accept that sanatan sampradayas within Sikhism do not share your Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhian interpretation, and therefore your claim "for a Sikh," is already ignoring a rich history within Sikhism which does not share your views?

For a Sikh, it is Guru and God. There is no place for demi-gods or physical Krishnas.

But you cannot explain while roop of Das Avtaray and Devatay are all over Guruji's bani. If there is "no place for them," why are they even mentioned? You are making a huge conclusion that Gurbani rejected avtaray and devatay. That is in line with the Tat Khalsa ideology. But where is your proof?

Gurbani says very clearly the entire creation rests upon the forms of the three Mahadevas: Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh. So obviously there is a place for them, and that place is the physical universe of three gunas. That's literally every perceivable thing.

Devteys and avtaray are not false. But they are not gods either, as there is only One God.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥

brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||

Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds.

~SGGS Ji ang 908

ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥

kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa ||

Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.

~SGGS Ji ang 754

We need to understand the meaning of ਦੇਵ dhaev. The root of Deva means "to shine." The interpretation "gods" really is Western imposition and not very accurate.

Devas, in Hinduism, are celestial beings that control forces of nature such as fire, air, wind, etc. They are not to be confused with the One and the Supreme God or His personal form, Saguna Brahman which can be visualized as Viṣṇu or Śiva. God (see Ishvara) or Brahman (the Supreme Spirit) is the ultimate controller. A famous verse from the Katha Upanishad states: “From fear (here, power) of Him the wind blows; from fear of Him the sun rises; from fear of Him Agni and Indra and Death, the fifth, run." In actuality, Brahman is the only Ultimate Reality, and all Devas are simply mundane manifestations of Him.

The Vaishnavites (who often translate deva as "demigod") cite various verses that speak of the devas' subordinate status. For example, the Rig Veda (1.22.20) states, oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ: "All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu." Similarly, in the Vishnu Sahasranama the concluding verses state: "The Rishis (great sages), the ancestors, the devas, the great elements, in fact all things moving and unmoving constituting this universe, have originated from Narayana," (i.e., Vishnu). Thus the Devas are stated to be subordinate to Vishnu, or God.

In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna himself states that worshipers of deities other than the Supreme Lord, Vishnu, are incorrect (Gita 9.23) Deva

However, everything really is God. These distinctions that we're making exist only in sansaar due to duality consciousness. We see in pieces and not the Whole. And so our understanding is flawed. A true sant worships the One Divine Reality pervading all things, and not the parcels and shadows.

now, going back to your signature. there are many pauris in japjisahib, which were discussion between siddhs and Guru. The line that youhave posted, is an answer to the siddhs on who Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Guruis. His Guru is the Guru of the Tri-Dev, not the Tri-Dev themselves, asthe rest of Japji Sahib says time and time again that the Tri-Dev singHIS praises, not their own.

Why do you think I disagree on this? I have written almost a book illustrating the difference between the devatay and the One Prabrahm All-pervading. Why would anybody think worshipping the gunas of materiality would benefit them? By the same token, Krishna, as avatara is NOT the same as devatay. Neither is Devi in aspect of Parabrahm as Divine Mother.

for clearer understanding of this Giani Thakur Singh has given goodexplanation on the Japji Sahib katha, and you will also learn thedifference between OM and OMKAAR.

There are dozens of texts on the subject if only Tat Khalsa rejecting mentalities would care to learn the ancient source teachings before jumping to conclusions intended to make distinctions from sanatana Dharma. For the best teachings about Om and vibrational power of mantra you should all be reading Jaideva Singh's translations of the Kashmiri Shaiva sutras. If you wanted to undertsand the ancient heritage of these teachings, why would you be listening to modern day Kathakars who are influenced by anti-sanatan viewpoints and seek only to distance interpretations of Sikh teaching FROM the ancient sources?

you have insinuated that this katha is of singh sabha mentality,therefore it is not worth much, you are mistaken if you think that thesamprdayes have changed their explanations of Gurbani just cos of thesabha.

I never said it had no worth. I said it was coming from a viewpoint intending to reject Sanatan sources, even jumping like a gymnast though convoluted hoops trying to interpret bani to make it not say what it clearly says, or completely wrench Sanskrit terms out of context and invent new and creative ones. These are valid views. They are accepted and respected as Panthic mainstream. And I am well familiar with them. But if you read the sanatan sources, and you read the sanatan Sikh granths and sources, and you look at the murals left behind, the Singh Sabha REJECTION and REDEFINITIONS are rather unconvincing.

To many Sikhs Giani Thakur Singh is a respected Mahapurash. How can I say anything bad about his views? I don't agree with them. While he is extremely wise within his own sampradaya teachings and therefore can't be invalidated, he is not a recognized historical genius like Shri Abinavagupta. So all these DDT kathakars are doing is explaining the Tat Khalsa rejection of ancient Hindu definitions. That is their role as kathakars within a mainstream Panthic anti-sanataan Singh Sabha reform movement.

looking on Srigranth.org website, this is from the Faridkot wala teeka,which was done by nirmalas. Now I know your gurmukhi isnt fluent so askif you have any probs reading this:

The Faridkot Vala Teekha IS the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha commentary veer ji. Those views did not exist before the Singh Sabha. Look, here is the history.

The first Udasi exegete of this period who left a written recordof his scriptural studies was Anandghana, who completed his tika ofJapu in 1795, followed by exegeses of several other banis. Anandghanawas the first to separate historical account from interpretativecomment.His interpretations are saturated with Upanisadic lore and aredensely Vedantic rather than Sikh, and are apparently a consciousreincubation of Hindu ideology in Sikh thinking.

Notice the bias in the account. The Udasi commentary on Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib Ji) is the earliest and it is clearly sanatan. Yet the article goes on to say it is Hindu and NOT Sikh, as per Tat Khalsa definitions. But even still the point is made, the EARLIER interpretations of Gurbani were clearly within Vedantic framework, and hence it is ludicrous to assume such interpretations have never been made before.

Nirmala scholarsgenerally echoed the Udasi trend of interpreting Sikh scriptural textsin the inflated style prescribed by Hindu commentators on Upanisadicand Vedic texts. Bhai Santokh Singh (1788-1843), the most prominentamong the Nirmalas, did write his Garabganjani Tika (Tika to humble thegarab, i.e. pride, of Anandghana) in criticism of Anandghana`sinterpretations in his Japu Tika, but he too was writing from withinthe Hindu framework and represented a deep Brahmanical influence.

The article is clearly written from Tat Khalsa bias because it is making the same mistake of accusing Vedantic scholarship of BRAMINISM. When in reality, Vedanta coincides with what Guruji teaches in Gurbani. Moreover, the popular Vaishnav reform movement was itself a reaction AGAINST Brahminism. So it is the most illogical accusation that Vaishnav interpretations are BRAHMINICAL.

A new phase of exegetical writing began with the advent of Westernlearning. It was, in fact, a Westerner scholar, Ernest Trumpp who firsttook up an end to end English translation of the entire Guru GranthSahib. But Trumpp`s scorn for traditional interpretations of the faithand his overt antipathy towards it earned him the reproach of theentire Sikh people. Following the publication of Trumpp`s work in 1877,unfinished though it remained.

Raja Bikram Singh, ruler of Faridkot (1842-98) and patron of the Amritsar Khalsa Diwan, commissioned a full scale commentary in Punjabi on Guru Granth Sahib. Faridkot Tika

The British were mischievously Christianizing and distorting the translation of the bani and the TAT KHALSA SINGH SABHA SCHOLARS wrote a rebuttal from their own perspective at once contradicting the efforts of the British AS WELL AS undermining, attacking, reinterpreting the TRADITIONAL UDASI AND NIRMALAY SCHOLARSHIP which existed prior to the British Raj.

Damdami Taksal not influenced by dominant Singh Sabha reform of Sikhism?

This Takhat was officially recognized as the fifth Takhat on November 18, 1966. On demand from the Sikhs, a sub-committee was appointed by the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, Amritsar by a General Meeting Resolution No: 789 on July 30, 1960...

The standard manual entitled Sikh Rahit Maryada was published under the auspices of the SGPC in 1950 after reaching a general consensus within the Sikh community. It has ever since been regarded as an authoritative statement of Sikh doctrine and behavior. The SGPC maintains that this manual is a representative of the "collective personality of the Panth" and dial no single group has any right or authority to challenge it. It is, however, important to note that the Sikh Rahit Maryada was produced as a result of the Tat Khalsa reforms, which represented the dominant component of the Singh Sabha movement. It seeks to establish Sikhism as "a monolithic, codified and reified religion" with universal norms of orthodoxy and orthopraxy. To this day its wide circulation of approximately two hundred thousand copies represents a measure of Singh Sabha success. Its reading certainly accentuates the image of a uniform Khalsa identity...

The main centre of the present-day Damdami Taksal (Jadia Bhindran-Mehta) is located at Gurdwara GurdarshanParkashat Mehta in Amritsar district. It is actually a branch of a major school of traditional Sikh learning known as die Bhindran Taksal. Although that Taksal was established by Sant Sundar Singh(1883-1930) of Boparai Kalan (in Ludhiana district) in 1906, it achieved prominence through its second incumbent, Sam Gurbachan Singh Khalsa (1902-69) of Bhindran Kalan (hence the name "Bhindran Taksal").33 He devoted his entire life to teaching correct enunciation and intonation in reciting die Sikh scriptures. He trained a large number of gianis (traditional Sikh scholars) through his mobile seminary. When he died in 1969 he was succeeded by two contenders,Giani Mohan Singh (1919-) and Sant Kartar Singh (1932-77). Sikh Rehit

To deny the profound doctrinal and interpretive influence of Singh Sabha on modern Sikhism, Major Sikh institutions such as Akal Takht and SGPC, Sikh Rehit Maryada, and even DamDami Taksal Sampradaya is just illogical. DDT and AKJ are probably the closest among all the sampradayas, and the AKJ are so Tat Khalsa as to be considered neo-Bhasaurias.

I never said Singh Sabha reformist view was "false." It is in fact the majority view. I said I disagreed with it. You can't have a heritage where murals of devatay are removed from all over purataan Gurdwaras thereby providing a radically different face of "modern" Sikhism to suit the new interpretations of "rejection." If this reformist and anti-Sanatan view is in fact the purataan version of Sikhi, how do you explain the loose ends, the references to Chandi puja, the Battle flags and murals of devatay and avataray in purataan Gurdwaras existing still, even after the literal whitewashing of murals from most. How do you explain the murthis of Chandi and Krishna removed from "Hari" mandir Sahib in 1906?

Yes, I know the Singh Sabha story about the evil brahmin mahants and how they tried to change Sikhi and make it Hindu and are ever the threat to the fragile Sikh identity. Even as the Mahants were from Guru's direct lineage families and descendants of Sanskrit scholars who were in Guruji's Darbar. What's fragile is the flimsy fanatical ideology of Sikhism as rejecting avtaray and devatay and having pretended profound difference from Sanatana Dharma. Now I never said Sikhi wasn't distinct and unique. But clearly the points of departure are not as dramatic as Singh Sabha wanted to make.

I'm not representing a sampradaya so I'm not pretending to speak for anyone but myself. But these views are actually in-line with older purataan concepts which were once the mainstream Sikhi. I'm showing you footprints which haven't yet been erased by the fanatically intolerant Singh Sabha. Absolutely, they are not new. Most of the Sikh princes of royal states, including Maharaja Ranjit Singh all kept sanatan practices, including Devi puja and attended Gurdwara and Hindu mandir without discrimination which exists today. And strangely, if this were a corruption or aberration, there was no fuss made or even single comment about it being "wrong." Not until the British and the Singh Sabhas.

Sometimes you are fanatically Vaishnava, then you turn into a fanatical Devi worshiper. Quite frankly, I'm confused as to what your religious views are.

I'm not a Vaishnava simply to have studied the Vaishnav scriptures and philosophy and recognize them in Gurbani. You simply can't have definitions of God as Hari, Krishna, Ram, Gopala, Govinda, Jagannatha, Keshava, Murali, etc and it NOT be a Vaishnav influenced definition. Vaishnavs only worship the Supreme God. But explaining this to you doesn't make me a fanatic Vaishnav.

Now I am a fanatical Devi worshipper? Is this because I cited the Devi Purana which describes the expansion of Devi as being the Divine Mother who is Parabrahm or because I have Devi avatar picture? How can you be confused about my religious views? They aren't hiding. I have said already I am a Hindu Sikh. I'm not Radhasoami, Nirmala, Nihang, Nanaksari, Ravidasi. I'm not Sevapanthi. I'm not Sant Nirankari. I'm not Namdhari. I don't belong to any of the purataan Sikh sampradayas or sects. So good luck with the label. Oh, yes, I'm not RSS,really!

I was a Naam abhiyasi amritdhari in the Akhand Kirtani Jatha. If I stopped believing in one thing, why does that make me a fanatic? Maybe I was a fanatic before and got out of a little box. As an amritdhari I went to visit a Hindu sant and had a spiritual experience that threw me very far out of the AKJ. What else do you want to know?

Sorry for all the edits, my formatting on this browser is really messed up.

You cannot prove an argument false by simply labelling it "SinghSabha". You need to explain WHY it is false in accordance to Sikhscriptures or literature.

Singh Sabha is an ideology which attempts to expunge Hindu Mat from Sikhi by deliberately pretending to ignore it's historical footprints in Sikh history, granths, and Gurbani. It isn't specifically "false" as it is it's own valid viewpoint and currently the mainstream Panthic viewpoint. By labelling it Singh Sabha, I'm pointing out that the agenda is to deliberately dissociate as if with an allergy from any Hindu source material or teachings, regardless of the logic or illogic for doing so.

I used the Puranas to show the error of the Singh Sabha based accusations that Hindus worship demi-gods as a boat of mukti. I don't know what more I can do to explain than cite directly from Puranic source material. The Puranas are explaining in great detail the differences between the plenary portions and the expansions of the Divine and clarifying devatay and avtaray.

Singh Sabha distorts bani in it's interpretation. For example many on this thread have said the devatay are meaningless, or futile, or useless. I stated the clarification as the devatay represent the demi-gods and the avtaray represent the Supreme God Jyoti-jyot from age to age although in the limitation of sargun form. For this reason the Waheguru mantra is names of avtaray and not demi-gods.

Arguments AGAINST Devi have been made lumping Her together with Krishan who is an avatar, and devatay who are demi-gods as if there were no difference. This reflects confusion all right. People are not making critical distinctions, and hence lumping Devi as among the lowest demi-gods when in actuality per Devi Purana is describing the Divine Mother in expansion as both nirguna and sarguna. And it is from this clarification that the Baugwati and the Divine Sword in bani are not refering to AKAAL specifically, as a sword is a form, and AKAAL is that Totality beyond form, yet pervading in form. In this respect the Devi who washes the feet of the sants and is the servant of AKAAL is demi-god aspect and sarguna. But the Devi aspect which is Pritam Baugwati Adi Shakti, is the Primal Lord, nirguna and sarguna. Both of Her aspects are reflecting an internal unity. But the role is different. The demi-god is in the role of Holy servant and shining angel (dhaev). But the expansion of the symbolic qualities of finite AND infinite means they have changed discussion from demi-god to DIVINE LIGHT.

Reason for this clarification is if Guru Ji was doing Devi puja it was to honor the Divine Mother aspect of the All-pervading ONE, and not the demi-god. But people are missing the point between plenary portions and expansions and that would be foolishness to worship the symbolic representation of a demi-god. Guru Ji would NEVER do this. Now many Hindu people do this. But Puranas directly taught something else. Guru Ji taught same as what Puranas taught. YES IT IS FOOLISH TO WORSHIP THE DEMI-GOD. THIS CONVERSATION IS RIDICULOUS.

Another thing is, not a single Sikh scholarof the past or present has ever done any arth/translation of "Guru Issar Gur Gorakh Brama Gur Parbati Mayie"as you have. If you are calling Sampradhayak as Singh Sabha, thenobviously you have not read the history of the Sikh Sampradhahs. I do not understand why you insist on turning us into worshipers of Hindu Gods.

Hinduism teaches there is only One Supreme God, AKAAL. I don't understand what your problem is.

Since the Singh Sabha have taken a razor and cut off the legitimacy of sanataan sampradayas, then your statement makes sense. But apart from the radical rejection of traditional sanataan sampradayas which actually do share some beliefs and interpretations with me, then your comment is false.

You wrote "But that is not coming from Guruji. That is coming from Hindu scriptures own teaching."

In my view, the correct version may be this. "Truth that is coming fromGuru Jee, the same Truth is also coming from enlightened Rishis. Onecan understand it according to his conscious mind as written in SriGuru Granth Saahib Jee and ancient scriptures."

Truth and the source of it are the same for all.

While I agree with you veer ji, what I meant was the citations are Hindu Puranas directly, not specifically from Shri Guru Granth Sahib. And purpose of this is so that Singhs may see the Puranas have taught exactly the same as what Guru Sahib taught so false assumption of Hindu mat being automatically "anti-Gurmat" can be corrected.

"I am Manifest, Unmanifest, and Transcendent Divinity;

I am Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva,

As well as Saraswati, Lakshmi and Parvati.

I am the Earth, the Sun and the Stars,

And I am also the Moon.

I am all animals and birds,

And I am the outcaste as well, and the thief.

I am the low person of dreadful deeds,

And the great person of excellent deeds.

I am Female, I am Male, and I am Neuter."

~Devi Bhagavatam Purana

Perfect. That is our beloved One. But how it ends up being multi arm lady riding tiger?

Can you not see that the teaching is coming from Devi Bhagavatam Purana? A Hindu scripture describing the form of Devi as riding a tiger. And yes, I am glad you acknowledged the symbolism of this imagery isn't literal. My point being, it isn't literal for Hindu's either. The difficulty seems to be the Singhs want to make Sanatana Dharma into worst excesses of honoring demi-gods as boat of mukti. So I am grateful you are seeing this point. As the concept of Devi as the Divine expansion, meaning Divine Mother as Nirguna AND sarguna represents that She, in this aspect is none other than AKAAL.

My personal opinion is that if Guru Gobind Singh Ji was writing about Devi or even if He did puja of Devi, that it was NOT of the paper tiger imagery, but of the AKAAL pervading in the representation of that form, i.e., shastars, justice, power to defeat evil, etc.

But that is not coming from Guruji. That is coming from Hindu scriptures own teaching. The problem we are having is only that you didn't understand that Sanatana Dharma makes the same distinctions between sargun form and nirguna and ALWAYS gives pre-eminence to nirguna. But it does this without side-tracking devatay and avtaray.

Guru sahib says about the status of these deities

Did you READ the quotes provided from Pancha Brahma Upanishad and Sriman Bhagavatam? They are teaching EXACTLY the same as Gurmat. Only false allegations about what Sanatana Dharma teaches makes Guruji's references seem like rejection of a false religion they set up as worshipping of demi-gods.

FYI, Sanatana Dharma does not teach the practice of worship of demi-gods, let alone for mukti. Can I make it any clearer than to cite directly from Vaishnav Puranas? Your whole argument is based on a radical misunderstanding and deliberate Tat Khalsa misrepresentation to cause division where there is none.

The Gandharvas said: Dear Lord, all the demigods, including Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, Indra

and Marīci and the great sages, are all only differentiated parts and parcels of Your body.

You are the Supreme Almighty Great; the whole creation is just like a plaything for You.

We always accept You as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we offer our respectful

obeisances unto You. ~Srimad Bhagavatam 4.7.43

Thathpurusha... It is the basis of all strengths. It is the Thureeya which is beyond the three common states and is the thing called Brahman. It is worshiped by Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu. It is the philosophy from which all others originate...

It is decorated by the sound of "Om". It has the shape of all devas. It is peaceful. It is beyond peace. It is beyond sound...

It is the form of PanchaBrahma which is everywhere and activates the five actions of creation,upkeep, destruction, disappearance and blessing. It hides the PanchaBrahmas within itself and exists as itself and shines beyond the PanchaBrahmas by its light. It shines in the beginning, middle and endwithout any causative reason...

Allthose devas who are all under stupor by the illusion of Maheswara wouldnot understand properly that Mahadeva who is the teacher of theuniverse, is the cause of all causes. His shape does not appear beforethe eye. This world is shining because of that Parathpara Purusha inwhom the world exists. It merges in him. That Ishanaaspect is the Para Brahman.. ~Pancha Brahma Upanishad

If the Devi Bhagavatam Purana has said Devi is the nirgun as well as sargun, then you are no longer dealing with Devi as mere plenary portion but in that expansion which is the Totality, AKAAL. Devi is both the servant of AKAAL and merged with AKAAL in Greater aspect. How is this concept different from believing that Panj Piare have become the Guru roop? Same thing as Krishna, he was born, lived and died. There are MILLIONS of Krishnas. HOWEVER, when not speaking from the distinction of embodiment in the created realm, when speaking from UNITY of turiya consciousness as an avataar, Bhagavan has become one of the NAAMS of liberation.

It is true, we do not jap NAAM of Devi. But that aspect of Devi as UNITY with Divine Father as Divine Mother, we do not reject, absolutely do not.

If you want to make radical distinctions rejecting Devi and Das Avtaray, why then do you not expunge the Waheguru Mantra? Because your notion of rejection is hypocritical. You have not proved Guruji's "rejection" at all. Because you do not understand the very Vaishnavite teachings reflected in the Puranas which Guruji was making "reference to" and not "rejecting." Guruji was clarifying the truth of the matter, not rejecting the very Puranic concepts he was placing into Gurmat.

ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|

In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|

The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।

taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|

In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।

kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।

chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|

The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|

When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥

jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥

The jiv merges again in its origin.

~Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

Bhai Gurdas Ji is telling clearly that Satguru Nanak Dev Ji is Himself an avatar of the Kaliyug in the lineage of Das Avtaray.

ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥

kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||3||

KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥

gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||

Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.

ਗਾਵੈ ਜਮਦਗਨਿ ਪਰਸਰਾਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਰ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਰਘੁ ਤੇਜੁ ਹਰਿਓ ॥

gaavai jamadhagan parasaraamaesur kar kuthaar ragh thaej hariou ||

Parasraam the son of Jamdagan, whose axe and powers were taken away by Raghuvira, sing of Him.

ਉਧੌ ਅਕ੍ਰੂਰੁ ਬਿਦਰੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਸਰਬਾਤਮੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥

oudhha akroor bidhar gun gaavai sarabaatham jin jaaniou ||

Udho, Akrur and Bidur sing the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the Lord, the Soul of All.

~SGGS Ji ang 1389

ਅਵਤਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਨਹਿ ਅੰਤੁ ॥

avathaar n jaanehi anth ||

Incarnated beings do not know His limit.

~SGGS Ji 894

This doesn't mean avataray are futile. It means they are within the creation of three gunas and veil of Mayajog. This is why Guruji as Himself incarnation wrote Japji Sahib to teach us that the human being is so limited we cannot even praise the God properly and would end ourselves trying to write all the praise that He is. HOWEVER, when the sargun manifestation is in turiya consciousness He has Brahmgyaan, He knows God and IS GOD. This is why we don't worship Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but rather His bani has become boat of liberation just as the NAAM.

If you read the Puranas, nothing says worship Krishan Ji's physicality. It most definitely says do not worship the demi-gods. What is being worshipped is not the plenary portion or the incarnation itself, but the EXPANSION, which is the Divine Totality of infinite opulances and Lights, nirguna AND sarguna. And absolutely clear distinction is made on this point. Just as Gurbani is clear to say the One who is pervading all is Parabrahm, and also calling as Jagannatha Gopal, a NAAM of Krishan Ji.

Keski as kakaar is not even worth talking about, its was simply an invention by Bhasauria.

I used to wear a keski. I think purpose of keski and dastaar is valid, to insulate the praanic currrent, protect the kes and head from battle injuries, cover hairs and show reverence for the Divine always. However, it is not appropriate to make mandatory for bibia. Purataan frescoes primarily show ladies wearing....haha, yes, jewelry and saris. I think some sampradaya have all gone overboard trying to make ladies into mini-men with these radical interpretations which have no basis in rehatnamay or history.

Fresco on the walls of Baba Atal Sahib, Amritsar, Punjab

Chitrakari's Photostream

ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥

akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae ||

In the Word, God established the three worlds. ~SGGS Ji ang 261

What is that One word? Ek Akshara? It is OM. How do I know this?

ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ ॥

akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa ||

From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations.

~SGGS JI ang 261

The Word comes from the Naad. In the Vedas it teaches that from the Para Nada comes the Pranava/Omkara.

Ek OM Kar. Mandukeya Upanishad states that Omkara is everything/idam sarvam.

So the entire expanse of uncountable universes is included. So the meaning changes to: "One created all that is." Not "One Creator God."

And with Bhai Gurdas vaar, "One has subsumed all forms in Himself."

Waheguru is a mantra:

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਅਨੂਪ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ।

nirankaaru aakaaru kari joti saroopu anoop dikhaaiaa|

The formless Lord has been beholden in the form of the light (in Guru Nanak and other Gurus).

ਵੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਅਗੋਚਰਾ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ।

vayd katayb agocharaa vaahiguroo gur sabadu sunaaiaa|

The Gurus recited Word-Guru as Vahiguru who is beyond the Vedas and Katebas (the semtic scriptures).

~Vaar 12 Pauri 17 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

The formless Lord took the form of Light, which is the definition of God in aspect of Hari, and became Guru, a Light which shines in darkness. Then why is it impossible that the Light which created all through the instrumentality of the 3 mahadevas Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh,who Gurbani says represents the material form of three gunas? Why is it impossible for that Great Light to shine/manifest through the limited and corruptible instrumentality of the sargun world of form,which includes devatay and avtaray?

Wouldn't it be foolish to worship limited forms of Light and shadow when the only worship which really matters is the one which can liberate you? And that worship is of the sound current by Nama Japa which alone has the power to transform us and wash away the veil of illusion. The ERROR is presuming Hinduism is foolishly worshiping lesser lights with blind brahministic ritualism AND BELIEVING IT IS A FORM OF MUKTI. Guruji clarified the truth on the matter. And the truth is what is actually the original Sanatana Dharma teachings, not the later corruptions of unwise people.

ਜਤ ਕਤ ਪੇਖਉ ਏਕੈ ਓਹੀ ॥

Jaṯ kaṯ pekẖa▫o ekai ohī.

Wherever I look, I see that One Lord alone.

ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Gẖat gẖat anṯar āpe so▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Deep within each and every heart, He Himself is contained. ||1||Pause||

ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰੁ ਕਿਰਣਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥

Āpe sūr kiraṇ bisthār.

He Himself is the sun, and the rays emanating from it.

ਸੋਈ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਸੋਈ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥੨॥

So▫ī gupaṯ so▫ī ākār. ||2||

He is concealed, and He is revealed. ||2||

ਸਰਗੁਣ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਥਾਪੈ ਨਾਉ ॥

Sarguṇ nirguṇ thāpai nā▫o.

He is said to be of the highest attributes, and without attributes.

ਦੁਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕੈ ਕੀਨੋ ਠਾਉ ॥੩॥

Ḏuh mil ekai kīno ṯẖā▫o. ||3||

Both converge onto His single point. ||3||

~SGGS Ji ang 387

The nirgun and the sargun converge on a single point. And that is the Nasal bindu of the Pranava.

It is the OM which is the unity of Light and Sound manifesting from the Primal Naad vibrating beyond sight and sound from infinite potentiality. And that Purest nirgun essence which we call diversely as Parabrahm, AKAAL, Narayana, Hari manifests without limit into infinite Krishnas and infinite Raam avtaras. But the essence of Krishna, the essence of Raam, the essence of Devi, and the essence of we ourselves, is theinfinite Divine Potential who is without form, beyond form, and within every form. So you cannot remove significance of devatay and avtaray from Gurbani without fundamentally altering the ancient wisdom teachings.

Neither can you falsely attribute demi-god worship to significance of Devi puja. Devi is in true unity as Divine Mother with the Divine Father. They are one and the same, because the God is without form, but in created dimension expresses in forms of male and female. Devi symbolizes Divine Power to right injustices and destroy evil. A puja is simply honoring the Divine Qualities of the ONE All-Pervading as we best understand them. Because none of us really understand them.

So this entire thread is much hullabaloo about nothing. It arises from misunderstanding the true teachings of Sanatana Dharma posing it to be deliberately anti-Gurmat when Gurmat INCORPORATES so many of these teachings.

5. Thathpurusha is with eight letters (Aa, Ka, Cha, Ta, Tha, Pa, Ya, Sa) and is in the eight petal lotus and is normally surrounded by air.It has five fires, protects effects of mantras, personification of the fifty consonants, has the form of Atharva Veda, is the chief of several crores of Ganas, has the shape which is extremely big, red coloured, gives whatever is asked for, medicine for worry and diseases and the root of Srishti (creation), Sthithi (upkeep) and Laya (merging). It is the basis of all strengths. It is the Thureeya which is beyond the three common states and is the thing called Brahman. It is worshiped by Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu. It is the philosophy from which all others originate.

6. You should understand that Ishana is the witness for intelligence and is the activator of the brain. It is the aspect of sky and cannot be seen. It is decorated by the sound of "Om". It has the shape of all devas. It is peaceful. It is beyond peace. It is beyond sound. It is Aa and occupies the headship of vowels. It is the form of Pancha Brahma which is everywhere and activates the five actions of creation, upkeep, destruction, disappearance and blessing. It hides the Pancha Brahmas within itself and exists as itself and shines beyond the Pancha Brahmas by its light. It shines in the beginning, middle and end without any causative reason. All those devas who are all under stupor by the illusion of Maheswara would not understand properly that Mahadeva who is the teacher of the universe, is the cause of all causes. His shape does not appear before the eye. This world is shining because of that Parathpara Purusha in whom the world exists. It merges in him. That Ishana aspect is the Para Brahmanwhich is the upper boundary of peace. The knowledge that the ParaBrhaman is oneself and the rise of Sathyo Jatam (birth of truth) is Para Brahman. Pancha Brahma Upanishad

this is a translation of sikhi to the max., a simple word for wordtraslation gives you Guru Shiva, Guru Vishnnu, etc, but the antreevkatha in panjabi of this by Giani Thakur Singh and others, is that this line is replying to the Sidhs , and Guru Nanak Says that my Guru is the Guru of Shiv, Guru of Vishnu, etc.

When you chose this as your signature, did you research it, or did you listen to any katha by any knowledgeable persons as to what this line means? or did you copy and paste it just cos it (in your mind)reinforced what you thought?

Either one will accept what it so clearly says "word for word" which is illustrating a principle found in earlier Puranas. Or one will listen to the katha of "knowledgeable" Singh Sabha oriented persons who have to impose a political slant and interpret to suit a Tat Khalsa agenda, thereby ALTERING the very clear and literal meaning of the vaak.

My Guru is the Guru of...

My Guru is...

That's a significant alteration. God is the Guru. All His creation are a part of the One without a second. God is nirgun AND sargun. To impose the politically correct change which only allows for God to be nirguna is not correct. It implies the Tat Khalsa intolerance that God is also manifest in the plenary portions of sarguna, Brahma,Vishnu, and Mahesh. And that fundamentally alters Gurmat.

Quite simply 100 years ago the Singhs wanted to politically and ideologically separate Sikhism from the sanatan heritage. Not only did they whitewash sanataan murals, but they imposed a NEW scholarship which imposed a NEW definition. The sole and fundamental purpose being to DENY the role and importance of devatay and avtaray thereby altering the profound symbolism of how the macrocosm is also a microcosm. What is above is also represented by what is within us.These devatay symbolize our own physicality, in all it's beauty AND in it's corruption, and pervading within us is the nirguna which is an indivisible wholeness.

Don't you see, it is WE OURSELVES who are nirgun AND sargun,only in our portion, we are jeev, and thereby identified with the purely physical, the purely finite and this is the source of our suffering. Only through the grace of a Satguru and keeping faithful practices of Nama Jap can we stabilize the fickle mind and purify the 5 demons in the heart. Only then will the consciousness merge with the nirguna, which is our truest and original identity.

The weakness lies in the ignorance of Hinduism. But blind ritualism is not the authentic spiritual message of Sanatana Dharma. Guru Sahib knew this, that's why he didn't speak against Dharmic teaching,but against adharmic and corrupted, hypocritical practices of unenlightened people. Clearly Guruji recognized the enlightenment of the (sanatan) sants.

HOWEVER what you are doing now is teaching against Sanatana Dharma as if it was the SAME as adharmic, corrupted,hypocritical practices of unwise people. That is where the error lies.

Ekam evadvitiyam

"He is One only without a second."

~Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1

Do you think the Hindu saints and enlightened sages really worshiped stone gods? Why do you keep posing the fake definition that Vaishnavism teaches worship of the demi-gods? Just to recognize the Guru Jyot within them is NOT THE SAME as worshiping in futile, ritualistic and ignorant way. And THAT is profound misrepresentation of Sanatana Dharma teaching. When will Sikhs stop trying to promote the Tat Khalsa theory that ALL Hindu philosophies are some brahminvaad corruption?

gandharvā ūcuḥ

aḿśāḿśās te deva marīcy-ādaya ete

brahmendrādyā deva-gaṇā rudra-purogāḥ

krīḍā-bhāṇḍaḿ viśvam idaḿ yasya vibhūman

tasmai nityaḿ nātha namas te karavāma

The Gandharvas said: Dear Lord, all the demigods, including Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, Indra

and Marīci and the great sages, are all only differentiated parts and parcels of Your body.

You are the Supreme Almighty Great; the whole creation is just like a plaything for You.

We always accept You as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we offer our respectful

obeisances unto You. ~Srimad Bhagavatam 4.7.43

You will NEVER understand Devi puja. You don't even have a concept of who Devi is.

Who told you Hindu's believe doing pujas to murthis was a boat of mukti? It is just a traditional way of honoring the God who is only One. Didn't you know that Jhatka is a part of Kali pujas? And the"ritual" observed in Hazoori Sahib of placing blood tilak on shastars is also from Kalipuja? But it is NOT to worship demi-god!!!!! It is to worship the Divine potency of the Almighty through imagery of what Devi represents, in the very form of weapons to defeat evil.

chu kar az hama helteh dar gujast halal ast bardan ba shamsheer dast (zafarnama)

when all means have failed it is justifiable to draw the sword....

YOU WROTE

If anyone is destroying Sikhism, it isn't open debate, analysis and the freedom to correct and contradict. But the people who are acting like thugs and bullying all viewpoints which disagree with them by baiting, threats, personal slanders, attacks and intimidation.

I SAY "you fit in this category cuz you have been clearly diproved on everything you say yet you cant accept it"

YOU LACK BASIC ANALYSIS SKILLS AND TO TALK TO YOU IS LIKE TALKING TO A BRICK WALL

At least I don't go around making retarded death threats over a disagreement.

As far as I am aware the Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji reference to kes is as a MUDRA, not a kakkar, or am I wrong?

I have not read Shri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji. But it makes sense if this is true because the jogis tied kes in a topknot over the dasam duaar to form a protective seal/mudra where the kes was energized with praan by practices of pranayama, kriyas and mantra japa. That is the purpose of a joora. The kes itself forms the mudra, not the keski, because the NAAM vibrates in the kes.