Mithar

Is it hard cover or soft cover? The book looks interesting.

I found the article on raagmala where i can see there are references to suraj parkash also

http://www.sikhism101.com/node/274

This link mentions this about Ragmala and Kavi Santokh Singh:

Maha-Kavi Santokh Singh (1787-1843), the famous historian that is most quoted by Kathavachiks (preachers), writes in 'Sri Gur Partaap Sooraj Granth' (pages 430-431):

ਲਿਖੇ ਸਮਸਤ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਸੋਅੂ, ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਮਾਂਹਿ ।

ਅੰਤ ਸਰਬ ਕੇ ਲਿਖਿ ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ, ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਿਤ ਮੁਹਰ ਲਗੀ ਜਨੁ ਵਾਹਿ ।

ਭੋਗ ਸਕਲ ਬਾਣੀ ਕੋ ਪਾਯਹੁ, ਮਹਿਮਾ ਜਿਸ ਕੀ ਕਹੀ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ।

ਭਵਜਲ ਭੈਰਵ ਕੋ ਜਹਾਜ ਬਜ਼, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਰ ਪਰਾਇ ॥੩੯॥

"Then Guru Ji wrote all the Svaiyye in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In the end (Guru Ji) wrote Mundavani as a seal indicating that Gurbani is no longer after this seal. One cannot measure the great spiritual benefit of reading a complete reading of whole of Baani. Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the ship to get across the this ocean of world. By the great grace of God this ship has been sent to this world and by his grace alone one can get onto this ship. ||39||

ਰਾਗਮਾਲ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਿਹਂ, ਹੈ ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ ਲਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਬੈਨ ।

ਇਸ ਮਹਿਂ ਨਿਹਂ ਸੰਸੈ ਕੁਛ ਕਰੀਅਹਿ, ਜੇ ਸੰਸੈ ਅਵਿਲੋਕਹੁ ਨੈਨ ।

ਮਾਧਵ ਨਲ ਆਲਮ ਕਿਵ ਕੀਨਸਿ, ਤਿਸ ਮਹਿਂ ਨ੍ਰਿਤਕਾਰੀ ਕਹਿ ਤੈਨ ।

ਰਾਗ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਨਾਮ ਗਿਨੇ ਤਿਹਂ, ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਅਰਜਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਹੈ ਨ ॥੪੦॥

"Raagmala is not Baani of Guru Sahib. Only up to Mundaavni is Gurbani; don’t doubt this statement and don’t let any cloud of doubt come in front of your eyes. A book named Maadhavaanal was written by Poet Aalam, this Raagmala is part of that book (the Niratkaari chapter of it. Niratkaari means dance. Raagmala appears in the scene when Kaam Kandhala the dancer dances and sings a song in front of the king while Madhavnal watches and plays instruments). Aalam Kavi has written the names of Raags and Raagnis that were sung at that time. Therefore, this baani is not the work of Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji.||40||"

If you don't agree with him fine... but the least you can do is to address the man with some respect instead of "Randhiri". The only other person in my lifetime I've heard call Bhai Randhir Singh Jee like that was a Kala Afghana Chella. So why stoop down to the level of a Kala Afghana Chella?

There is a similiar shabad by Guru Angad followed by Guru Arjan dev ji Maharaj.. Is Maharaj also correcting Guru Angad here ?

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੨ ॥

सलोक मः २ ॥

Salok mėhlā 2.

Shalok, Second Mehl:

ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ ॥

जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु दीजै डारि ॥

Jo sir sāʼn▫ī nā nivai so sir ḏījai dār.

Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥

नानक जिसु पिंजर महि बिरहा नही सो पिंजरु लै जारि ॥१॥

Nānak jis pinjar mėh birhā nahī so pinjar lai jār. ||1||

O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord-take that body and burn it. ||1||

-ang 89

Another misleading Sahib Singh Khalsa translation. Prof Sahib Singh translated this more into context right here:

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0089.html

Some things just cannot be translated into English properly.

There are 3-4 Quran verses that say men can have sex with their Wives and slave women/captives of war. All other women are forbidden.

WOW, such high moral ethics. Brings tears to my eyes.

It is possible as some shabads in Gurbani are meant to be read metaphoricly instead of literaly. The problem however is, how do you that you dont take it to far? I read a shabad once that said something like "the best of deeds is to praise the Lord".. does that mean that whenever Gurbani talks of doing good deeds, it talks about simran? should we just give up doing good deeds and concentrate on meditation alone? no.

i cant find that shabad right now but here is another

Chanting, deep meditation, austere self-discipline, good deeds and other techniques to being peace - they are not equal to even a tiny bit of the Lord's Name.

Guru Arjan Dev

Here it says that good deeds are worth nothing, so does it mean we should just give up doing good deeds and meditate instead?

The same way that you have answered no, the same way it can be said that this "mosque" that Baba Fareed ji is talking about,- is'nt compassion. The good deeds are good deeds, and the mosque is a mosque

You see the problem with that is that alot of translations like the one you have quoted are done by Sahib Singh Khalsa who uses the same vocabulary for many of the same words. Punjabi translation are more accurate and more in context to Gurbani, and I'm sure if you use a translation of that same shabad in Punjabi, it's meaning will apear to be more in context to the Guru's message.

One should rarely rely on the English translations. They can be very misleading.

It must be the muslim way of doing namaz as it talks about doing morning ablutions and going to the mosque.

Perhaps we read everything too literally. Many Islamic and Hindu terms have been redefined by the Gurus to mean something else. This is what Satguru Jee says:

Let compassion be your mosque

Devotion your prayer mat

Truth and fair play the Q’ran

Let your modesty be your circumcision

And courtesy the fast of a Mussalman

Let your conduct be your Ka’aba

Rectitude your guide.

And good deeds your creed and prayer

The rosary should be what pleases Him

Thus would He vindicate your name fair. (Raag Majh Slok)

I beleive this is the kind of Mussalman Baba Farid Jee was.

Then why don't you tell me. I do have an academic interest in Islam, so I am interested in knowing.

Tony jee, slavery is allowed in Islam? surely the mercy to mankind was against slavery?

"ਫਰੀਦਾ ਬੇ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ਕੁਤਿਆ ਏਹ ਨ ਭਲੀ ਰੀਤਿ ॥

ਕਬਹੀ ਚਲਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ ਪੰਜੇ ਵਖਤ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥੭੦॥

ਉਠੁ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਉਜੂ ਸਾਜਿ ਸੁਬਹ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਿ ॥

ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਪਿ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥੭੧॥ "

“O Benimaza (prayer less) dog, this is not a proper way of life. You never come to the Mosque for five times prayers. Get up O Farid, wash your face, hands and legs, and offer the Nimaz in the morning. The head, which does not bow to the Sayeen (God), cut it off (own head) and remove that head. The head, which does not bow before the Sayeen, what is the use of such head? Burn it under the earthen pot in place of firewood”.

Hazrat Baba Shiekh Farid - A Sufi (sacred to the Sikhs) who practiced Islam.

"Either these personages were ignorant of their own religion or they did not practise Islam."

Wrong on both counts. But I am sure you will dream up another theory.

But is the Nimaz that is being metioned here the same Nimaz the practicing Muslims do or is it the Nimaz mentioned by Guru Jee in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee?

I agree, you know the word better than me, you are the one.

That was a good comeback

Nusrat is still the best. The kid doesn't even come close.

If you think this is fanciful then read your history, the Indians were willing to withdraw back to Ambala in 1965 and only actions by a Sikh general stopped the withdrawal!

Tony jee has made good very valid point here. In 1965, when it was very likely that the Pakistanis were going to win, the Indian government had ordered the Indian army to abandon Punjab to the Pakistanis and move all the way back to Ambala. If that had happened, then it is very likely that no Sikh girl would have remained a virgin as mentioned by the great author of Saachi Saakhi. It was only because of brave men like Harbaksh Singh that the Sikhs in the Indian military refused to listen to the Hindu mantrees and generals way back in Delhi to abandon Punjab. Sikhs beat the Pakistanis which was at the time unthinkable. We CANNOT rely on anyone else for our protection.

Sikh need to look out for their own interests, because if we don't NO ONE ELSE will.

das, if there are two individuals who have had a violent history with one another and when ever they see each other they get into a gun fight. Then let us assume there is a Sikh who is just a passerby and is caught in the middle of the gun fire between the two violent individuals, what should the Sikh do:

a) just stand in the middle of the two violent individuals shooting each other because that would be "brave" thing for the Sikh to do.

Get out of the way.

Nothing smart or brave in option 'a' in my opinion.

Tony Jee, what is that story about the Prophet allowing the Muslims to rape as long as they use the "azl" method of intercourse to prevent pregnancy? So even when it comes to rape, they do use some ethics dont' they?

LoL!!! Sorry Bro. Yeah, there was a sant, people used to call his 'sant doo guttan wale'. the reason for this name is because he had to long plats and his hear was matted. he used to swear alot and he used to have thousands of people come to see him. He never let people touch his feet, and he used to swear alot. he never accepted money and when people used to give him money, he used to throw it in fire or used to tell the to go. I have spoke to some one that used to do seva there and they say that once they went to his poora and saw his body in pieces. 2 days later he came out of his poora. he used to sit for days upon end doing bhakti.

I've heard of dho gutaa wala Sant. Anyone have a photo of him?

Das, your post is drenched in political correctness, and I’m sure it would sound all too well in a patriotic Amir Khan movie, but we need to be more realistic for minute. I’m not a Khalistani, nor do I care for Khalistan. In fact, the way many current Khalistanis are, I don’t really think we should have one. But that doesn’t mean I’m not a Sikh nationalist and don’t care for Sikh interests. Whenever there is a Indo-Pak(Hindu-Muslim) war, of course it would be in the interests of the Sikhs to stand by the Hindus since Muslims are more evil than Hindus, but that doesnt mean we should’t act in our interests either. For too long we have been looking out for the interests of others without thinking about our future generations for minute. As Sant Jarnail Singh Jee Bhindrawala once that, we are still paying for the mistakes that Sikhs during the partition made. Sant Jee said this because we were being offered our own state, yet our leaders at the time rejected it because they trusted the words of two sweet tongued lawyers (Gandhi and Nehru). If we dont’ want our future generations to suffer, we need to thinking about our interests from today.

- Many of great Saints: Sant Karam Singh Ji (Hoti Mardan Wale), Sant Attar Singh Ji (Reru Sahib wale), Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji (Rara Sahib Wale) were in British army because they thought that it is "Hak de kamai". They never said that they won't fight because the other enemy was Indian.

The Mahapursh you mentioned joined at a time when pretty much all rural Sikhs were army men. This was our main profession of the time. This was a way of life for Sikhs. During those times, being born a Sikh automatically meant you would pretty much become a soldier.

Also, please anwswer me this, would the Mahapursh you mentioned have supported the Indian state during 1984? Or would they supported another mahapursh by the name of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawala in 1984?

It's no longer known as Nawanshar. It is now known as Shaheed Bhagat Singh Nagar.

I've always liked the way Sloke M: 9 at the end of an Akhand Paath is recited. That instantly grabs my attention.

Jattboot, you do have a point, but the fight between India and Pakistan is basically a fight between Hindus and Muslims. I think that Sikh organisations are saying why should Sikhs who have nothing to do with their fight become unvoluntary casualties between a fight between HIndus and Muslims.

The fight between Hindus and Muslims has been going on for over a 1000 years, and is likely to go on long into the future. Sikhs should look after their own interests first I think and secure our safely before acting like Hanuman who burns his poonch for someone else. We were the biggest losers of the partition. The British were giving us our Raaj, but our stupid leaders rejected it trusting in the words of Nehru and Gandhi. After that we all know of what happened to us.

Now that we are part of the Indian state, we need to make the best of it and just to prachar as much as we can to Hindus, Muslims, High and Low castes. Our birth rate is the 2nd lowest in India according the Indian census reports. So the only way we are going to increase our numbers is by doing Prachar.

amardeep is right. While Hindus and Muslims have a very artistic way of reciting their scriptures. We see very little of that amongst the Sikhs. I've seen some Granthis who do it very nicely but the majority don't. But I do like Bhai Jarnail Singh Jee's Gurbani files online.

I've heard that when the Gurus refer to the Vedas in Gurbani, they are takling about the 4 Veds plus the Upanishads. I've heard that the Upanishads are not seperate from the Vedas. T Singh Jee please do kirpa and shed more light on this.

Then get Pyara Singh Padam's Sau Sakhi book. It is as original as it can get, plus with a good background info. I don't know Pyara Singh's background though.

Could it be that due to deviations and innovations just as most of the current Udasins are not as the original Udasins of the Guru period, similarly the current SGPC/Akalis are not like the early Akalis of the Gurdwara Sudhar Leher. I know coming from an Akali backgroud, the original Akalis would never tolerate the kind of stuff that is going on in our Panth right now. People like Jagir Kaur, Badal or his beard tying son would never even be considered for junior memership if the original Akalis were alive.

Nothing wrong with tying a beard or putting gel on it or trimming it if that is what you like doing, but the original Akalis would not tolerate it amongst their ranks. Now if you go to Punjab, it is very common for drinkers, beard trimmers being a part of the Akali Dal. It is no longer a puritanical Sikh political party that serves Sikh interests. Even the Badals have said that Akali Dal is not a Sikh party but a Punjabi party.

This happens to many organisation and groups. They originally start off well, but as time goes by it starts to get corrupted when selfish types enter their ranks. This is what happened to the Sikh militants during the 80s as well. The original were in it for ideological reasons, but as the original ones died off the newer recruits (1988-1989 period) began joining less for ideological reasons and more for personal reasons. Many times these later recruits did not act in accordance with Gurmat giving the entire movement a bad name.

Anything by Kirpal Singh Jee is good and worth reading.