Mithar

No one is saying that killing of her daughter is a lesser crime than hair removal. You think people are making a bigger deal of hair removal than killing of a person? I remember when she killed her daughter, it was all over the media and in Punjab this point was the main rallying point for all the groups opposed to the Badal group. Singhs back then even began to accuse her of being a Kurimaar and thus wanted her to be excommunicated, even though a Kurimaar is a person who is accused of female infanticide and not person who kills a grown woman. This went on for a few years, but in the end nothing happened because she had the backing of Badal.

Now because she killed her daughter, it seems some people here may be suggesting that all her other crimes should not even be mentioned or highlighted. So if tomorrow if she gets caught red handed stealing from the Golakh, we should not even mention this because she killed her daughter and only that one crime of her's should be mentioned, does that make sense to you guys? Why only limit her to one crime? I say all her crimes should be shown to the world.

amazing...... you can 'allegedly' kill your daughter and her child and still hold titles and position of respect, yet get rid of unsightly facial hair and the patit police of the kaum come a knocking on the door.

If you had read the news back then, then you would know that the "Patit Police" as you call them did make demands for action against her when her when she killed her daughter. In fact, it was only the Panthic Sikhs who tried their best to get her removed as the SGPC jathadar and arrested, but she was backed by the most powerful man in Punjab, Prakash Singh Badal who made sure she was protected, and anyone from PUnjab knows that you cannot be touched by the police if you have backing from Badal.

Did'n she murder her daughter because she married a guy from a different caste?

That's a part of it. In India it's like a cultural crime to run away and marry a boy, what makes it even worse is when the boy is from another caste. Jagir Kaur being Lubana, and the boy her daughter ran away with is a Jat.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/155185-if-muslims-loved-their-faith-like-sikhs.html

I frequently visit this site to read Discussion on cricket ,but this thread did surprise me that how they praise sikhs who stand for their faith

lets hope they never see this site and the things we say about them. Especially my posts.

Never undermine a ref! You never know how he will enforce his decision!!

The ref is the clear winner, although that was a cheep shot hitting a man behind the head when he doesn't even expect it.

Great news. I hope the SGPC can turn this into a printing center for Birs and especially Sikh literature in the west. I've heard the SGPC is also planning on making a Sikh center for propagation of Sikhi in America. Lets pray that this is the beginning of something great.

People should only use legal methods to send their boys abroad. But even if they try to go illegally, at least they are boys and are strong enough to take care of themselves. What really annoys me is when I hear of Punjabi parents who send their girls all alone to a foreign country. These girls usually always end up doing all the wrong things whether it is joining flesh trade or keeping boyfriend after boyfriend. I don't blame the girls, the parents are the real douche bags for doing this, and all what? just so their daughter can sponsor them in the future! such disgraceful people.

8000 girls indulging in the flesh trade is a shocking figure. It's not hard to see Punjabi girls from traditional respectable families who are sent here as students have largely become ਲੋਫਰ ਕੁੜੀਆਂ without parental or elder supervision. Sad really, when will Punjabi parents learn from this modern tragedy.

recently i've noticed that many of the european proposals were already enforced in Sikh kingdoms earlier such as:

- Banning halal meat

- Banning calls to prayer

- Banning burkas/purdas

- testing the loyality of muslims by making them do something contrary to their belief (in Holland it has been implemented that new immigrants has to watch the bodies of naked women) , - prem sumarag shows how muslims had to eat pork.

I can see the other laws being enforced except the "banning calls to prayer" part. I've only read this in Muslim propaganda which as we all know will not be in favour of the Sikhs. Is there a third party source, like from a contemporary European or Hindu account which says Sikhs banned the Muslim call to prayer? From all the 3rd party accounts I have read they usually always say how tolerant Sikh rule was over non Sikhs.

To be honest women are hard to predict.

I think this is one statement that all forum members can agree to.

On the Kala Afghanist site sikhmarg.com the Rehras Sahib has been changed. Until last week, when you clicked on http://www.sikhmarg.com/japji/rehraas.html you would get the Akal Takht approved Rehras Sahib, but now they have taken out the Dasam Bani portions of Rehras Sahib which were Benti Choupi and the two shabad that follow it the Svaiyaa and the Dohra.

Although it is not surprising, but it just shows the fox like character of the Kala Afghanists. I still remember when they first started off, they would go around saying how they want to uphold the Akal Takht Maryadha and promote the Rehras Sahib approved by the Akal Takht, but as they started to gain support over a large part of the diaspora Sikhs, they began to show their real beliefs, then they were excommunicated. Now that they are excommunicated and have a large enough support base they are openly going against the Akal Takht and even questioning the validity of the authority of the Akal Takht.

I have noticed that in the last few months as things have cooled down, Panthic Sikhs have begun to slow down their opposition to the Kala Afghanists. But if you look at the Kala Afghanist side, they are still just as active in spreading their anti Sikh literature and propaganda. This is a war of information and ideas and we need to stay on top and alert.

they should become Sikhs.

I wish in the future Sikhs can build a monument commemorating all the battles of the Anglo-Sikh war. In fact, there should be a monument at every place a battle happened during the two great wars.

It is interesting that even though the Sikhs were outnumbered in all the battles, yet when you read the British account of the battles, they will inflate the numbers of the Sikhs trying to show that it was the British who were outnumbered, just look at the account of the battles in wikipedia where they give the over exaggerated inflated numbers according to British accounts. This is orientalist version of history. Is there any way we can change this because it is very misleading on wikipedia's part.

I dismiss Sants when they start asking people for money i.e. buying yourself a place in heaven. Please if you know any real sants do tell me.

Is it also in akal purkhs hukam for you not to wake up at amritvela take ishnan and do nitnem, or to do nindya, chuglia and swearing or to stab someone in the back, to lie and cheat to them, to commit adultery, to drink (do nasher), to cut your kesh?

Please elaborate on what is past ruihana stage, then why so much corruption at some of the highest levels of the Sikh clergy, gianis and raagis corruption? What is wrong with recognising the whole of humanity as one and the same?

Brother, it's strange that you see only bad in Sikh Sants/Gianis (without seeing any good), yet you see divine light pouring out of the faces of Christian and Muslim holy men with out seeing anything bad in them (I could point a lot of bad things about them, but what's the point? since I myself am not perfect!)

Instead of only looking at the bad in Sikh Sants and Gianis today, why not get inspired by the jeevanis of Baba Budha Jee, Bhai Mani Singh Jee, Baba Deep Singh Jee, Bhai Taru Singh Jee and countless other Bhagats in Sikh history. Even today, we have Mahapursh like Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowalwalay who inspire Sikhs all over the world to do Bhagti, keep Amritvela and Rehit. So great Sikh saints are there, it is just a matter of you choosing whether you want to look at those examples or not.

Interesting article, it's a good khalsa centric response to western orientalist mindset.

LOL this was so funny!!! But it's so true.

Apne have such a bad inferiority complex. An example of this is a distant relative of mine. She is a young girl(24) who was born and bred in Punjab. Then some NRI man from America came to India and married her. She had a light brown skin colour and when she was married she had this beautiful long braided hair. Within a year of coming to America, she cut her braided hair (guth) to her shoulder length. She died her hair blond and started wearing blue contact lenses even though she has brown skin. She even began to try to speak with an American accent very strangely by speaking through her nose. All she accomplished was to be laughed at behind her back. Sadly this type of inferiority complex is very common amongst all South Asian people.

Is'nt the Professor Sahib Singh Teeka a Singh Sabha response to the Nirmalas Fareedkot tika?

NO! it's just a steek just like all other steeks, not a response to anyone.

So some of you guys see the dog abuse and go blind to the human abuse in the original post?

Because a Sikh is suppose to feel compassion for all humans and animals. Animals don't have their Martin Luthar King Jrs or Nelson Mandelas. So we humans must feel compassion for them and voice our concearn for their safety & well being because if we humans wont, no one else will.

Well if you have a citation which contradicts that Braj is the language of Braja and has no known association to Vaishnava poets and literature, then please do share it in English for the non-Gurmukhi readers, unless of course you think I am presenting my own expert opinion by citing an external source for my evidence.

And if you also agree that Braj Bhasha has no known relationship to Vaishnavism then please do share a source more credible than someone's pindu bravado of being born in India and related to Rajputs and making claim that Braj comes from Raj instead. I already said I could be persuaded with mature presentation of evidence instead of silly blustering one-upmanship. It's just irrational argumentativeness to try and negate every single thing I say because you feel you have to oppose me for not being Sikh or challenging some of the mainstream interpretations of Hindu philosophy originating from propaganda intending to erase it's credible relationship to Historical Sikhism.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਹਿੰਦੀ ਸਿਖ, ਫਿਰ ਗੱਲ ਕਰ| ਜਦੋਂ ਤਿਨੂੰ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਜਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਭਾਰਤੀ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਨਹੀ ਬੋਲਣੀ ਤੇ ਪੜ੍ਹਣੀ ਆਉਂਦੀ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਬਾਰੇ ਬਹਿਸ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਫਾਇਦਾ? ਹੋਰ ਕੋਈ ਕੰਮ ਧੰਦਾ ਨਹੀ, ਬੱਸ ਬਿਨਾ ਗੱਲ ਤੋਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦਾ ਟਾਈਮ ਖਰਾਬ ਕਰੋ|

Oh? And you are an authority on Braj? Do you even speak it??

ਤੁਹਾਡਾ ਭੱਲਾ ਹੋਵੇ! ਇਹ ਉਹ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਬੋਲ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਜਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਹਿੰਦੁਸਤਾਨੀ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਣ ਦੀ ਸਮਰਥਾ ਹੀ ਨਹੀ ਰਖਦੀ| ਫਿਰ ਭੀ ਇਹ ਹਰਜਸ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਿਜ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਉਤੇ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਸਮਝਦੀ ਹੈ|

It's not just humans that are having a bad time. This video made me sick!

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/849790-diplomats-son-battered-labrador-puppy-after-having-a-bad-day

That guy doing that to the poor dog is a pure demon. A future wife beater for sure.

Unfortunately some things need to be said and since we are all adults here I assume some no nonsense views might do some good to some people.

There was no threat of violence or rudeness from me. I just stated that facts as I see them. Too many fools running around after Sadhus/Pirs/Fakirs/Fake Gurus who are basically charlatans with an agenda. It's such bhajj natth which was never there before that has led to nonsense questions like 'Can a Sikh do Namaz?' It won't be long before someone comes on here and would like to know whether he can say 'Hail Mary', indulge in self mutilation with the Shias or even eat Halal meat.

Some people on here argue that it is insensitivity to the questions that some Sikhs come up with that leads to some fools running off to other religions. In my mind it's the over sensitivity to the feelings of fools who should know better that it leading to such things. Sikhs were also known as no nonsense people, now we bend over backwards to answer questions which a few years ago would have invited a slap and probably brought a fool to his senses. Why weren't Sikhs in the 18th century to a decade ago not running off to other religions? It was because Sikhs weren't wishy washy bleeding heart liberal idiots bending over backwards not to hurt the poor sap who has been enamoured by some whirling Sufi layabout.

As always Tony Jee, you said it like it is.

Eh?  Tell me this simple thing...who were all the bhatts whose bani appears in Gurbani?  They were Vaishnavas, yes?  ALL of them.  And the bhagats whose bani appears in Gurbani, were all of them also Vaishnavs with one exception.....sehajiya SUFI Baba Farid.  So that's 99.9% of all the bani which is not Guru's own bani that belongs to Vaishnav school.  And you will now say some preposterous unfounded thing about Vaishnavism is NOT the primary philosophy which occurs alongside Guru Sahibaan own thoughts.  Really?  And do tell which "other" philosophy has been elevated so highly as Vaishnavism within own Gurbani, hmm?

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥

baisano thae guramukh such dhharamaa ||

A Vaishnaav is one who, as Gurmukh, lives the righteous life of Dharma.

~SGGS Ji ang 258

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ਮਿਥਿਆ ਨਾਹੀ ਰਸਨਾ ਪਰਸ ॥

mithhiaa naahee rasanaa paras ||

One whose tongue does not touch falsehood;

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਰਸ ॥

man mehi preeth niranjan dharas ||

whose mind is filled with love for the Blessed Vision of the Pure Lord,

ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਪੇਖੈ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ॥

par thria roop n paekhai naethr ||

whose eyes do not gaze upon the beauty of others' wives,

ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਟਹਲ ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ ਹੇਤ ॥

saadhh kee ttehal santhasang haeth ||

who serves the Holy and loves the Saints' Congregation,

ਕਰਨ ਨ ਸੁਨੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ॥

karan n sunai kaahoo kee nindhaa ||

whose ears do not listen to slander against anyone,

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਜਾਨੈ ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੰਦਾ ॥

sabh thae jaanai aapas ko mandhaa ||

who deems himself to be the worst of all,

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਪਰਹਰੈ ॥

gur prasaadh bikhiaa pareharai ||

who, by Guru's Grace, renounces corruption,

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਟਰੈ ॥

man kee baasanaa man thae ttarai ||

who banishes the mind's evil desires from his mind,

ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਜਿਤ ਪੰਚ ਦੋਖ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ॥

eindhree jith panch dhokh thae rehath ||

who conquers his sexual instincts and is free of the five sinful passions

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਧੇ ਕੋ ਐਸਾ ਅਪਰਸ ॥੧॥

naanak kott madhhae ko aisaa aparas ||1||

- O Nanak, among millions, there is scarcely one such 'touch-nothing Saint'. ||1||

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥

baisano so jis oopar suprasann ||

The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥

bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn ||

He dwells apart from Maya.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥

karam karath hovai nihakaram ||

Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.

ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥

this baisano kaa niramal dhharam ||

Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;

ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥

kaahoo fal kee eishhaa nehee baashhai ||

he has no desire for the fruits of his labors.

ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥

kaeval bhagath keerathan sang raachai ||

He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the songs of the Lord's Glory.

ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥

man than anthar simaran gopaal ||

Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe.

ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥

sabh oopar hovath kirapaal ||

He is kind to all creatures.

ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥

aap dhrirrai avareh naam japaavai ||

He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥

naanak ouhu baisano param gath paavai ||2||

O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2||

~SGGS Ji ang 274

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ਸੋ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸੋ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਧਨਵੰਤੁ ॥

so surathaa so baisano so giaanee dhhanavanth ||

They are intuitively wise, and they are Vaishnaavs, worshippers of Vishnu; they are spiritually wise, wealthy and prosperous.

ਸੋ ਸੂਰਾ ਕੁਲਵੰਤੁ ਸੋਇ ਜਿਨਿ ਭਜਿਆ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥

so sooraa kulavanth soe jin bhajiaa bhagavanth ||

They are spiritual heros, of noble birth, who vibrate upon the Lord God.

~SGGS Ji ang 300

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Now, where do the teachings of accepting all castes and outcastes as spiritual equals, serving community kitchen to feed the poor, singing sankirtan of the Lord's praise, NAAM jap, Mahamantra, and keeping company of the Sadhu sangat come from?

Answer: Vaishnavism.

LOL, Bahadur used to say the same thing but with Shia'ism.

yaar veers apne pehen ji da kuj nai ho sakda..pehen ji lets just agree to disagree..for you it is vaishnavism for us it is not ! bassss ?

This is going just extreme, the singh sabha mindset will want to remove everything like this and pehen ji will want to take all this and summarise it as vaishnavism... pehen ji aap ji nu jis tarah bodh hove samjho te khush raho...naam japo Hari da hor apne blood pressure nu thik rakho..

Akaal aap ji di rakhya kare te sadbuddhi pardaan kare.

Veer Jee, problem eh hai ki pen ji noon Punjabi nahin aundi, naa Gurbani gurmukhi vich parhni aundi hai, phir bhi apne aap noon Gurmat te ek "vidhvaan" samajh dhi hai.

why doesn't wikileaks website work? have the government managed to wipe it off the internet?

DalSingh, there is no point in even addressing her. No matter what anyone says, she has already made up her mind with her preconceived Hindutva influenced ideas. You will just waste your time.