Mithar

had they buried him i would have loved to go and piss on his grave !

But pissing on someone's grave is not the Sikh thing to do. This is something that Americans would do. Osama and Islamic imperialism is evil but so is western imperialism and especially it's former leader Bush who was responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq alone.

Right now, Sikhs just need to turn neutral in the so called war on terror between Islamic and western imperialist powers. Both sides are evil and terrorists. Sikhs should be focusing on building their own strength rather then choosing sides in other people's wars.

If this is happening in the heartland of Sikhi "Punjab", then what can we hope for in foreign countries.

Is sarbat on the path to conversion?

Either that or maybe Al Taqiyya is being observed by our brother.

I can understand what you are saying veerjee. The conservative victory is a very disappointing victory. The disappointment is not so much because they won, but because they won majority. Now they have no fear of re election, they can do whatever they want. Canadians are stuck with them. It is good the NDP won so many seats. The liberals lost very badly. Even Ignatief lost his own seat, can't say I sympathize with him though, he deserved to lose after they way he refused to call Sikh genocide as genocide. Ignatief needs to step down and let someone more deserving to take over the liberal leadership. Now that harper has won, we have to live with it. Harper is a real conservative Gora who has no sympathy for minorities. He has a hidden agenda in my opinion.

On 5/3/2011 at 8:40 PM, sarbatdapala said:

Also a muslim to quote once said ""Our prophet has said that a true Muslim is he by whose words and deeds not the least of his brother-men may ever come to any harm ..." from http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/knaebel3.html

 

Also as for the comments of mithar on disproving islam please construct a document for the entire sangat with quotes, references to all those points of disproof as well for sangat. Thing is I remembering reading that even the first generation of muslims doubted the prophethood of muhammad however agreed with alot of the things he taught and said even the monotheism so as a walliat he stands to be a true walli (saint mahapurkh however one with questioned attributes).

 

He may be a walli, saint Mahapurkh to the low Islamic standards. But Sikhs standards for what constitutes a Mahapurkh is very high. And in no way does Prophet Mohammaded fit the standards of what we consider to be a Mahapurkh.

'im glad bin laden was killed...but its funny how america can assasinate whoever it wants and be called brave but when the sikhs brought indira ghandi to justice we were called terrorisits...pure hypocrisy''

Who ever wrote this has made an excellent point. It shows that without political power to back up your actions, you will be considered a terrorist. Sikhs should not show emotion to Osama's death.

Sikhs should remain neutral in the war between the west and Muslim world and not take sides because this war is a war between two evils. One is western imperialism and the second is a resurgent Islamic imperialism. Both want to dominate the world (the west is already in control, but for how much longer??). Both are pure evil, and none are friends of Dharm.

The fight between Muslims and Americans will go on regardless of Osama's death. Personally I don't have sympathy for him. He just made the lives of anyone who looks like Muslims much harder after 9/11. We are still living in the post 9/11 world. Just when will this post 9/11 era end I don't know. But I hope it ends soon enough for everyone's sake.

Rumi was good but why is Guru Nanak better? We all believe in sikh raj but that concept is from sau sakhis and rajnamah and karnanamah how authentic are those documents?

That is topic which books and volumes can be written for. I would suggest you please listen to Giani Takhur Singh Jee's Japji Sahib Katha which explains every thing. You can find it on Gurmat Veechar. Furthermore, if you can then please read Udham Singh's book "Sacha Guru". It explains in detail of why Guru Nanak Dev Jee has no equal. He is Jagat Guru.

Mithar I really liked your last post before that one. So would you say mithar then we should convert these muslims to sikhism? I am not laughing at it- rather with it. It seems alot of this topics answers are given in panth prakash by bhangu sardars do you have a link to it? Also till today I don't think we have had any sikh scholar take events of Guru Gobind Singh ji's court to produce jurdistical laws that should be applied in a sikh homeland i.e. religious freedoms etc.

http://www.bagchee.com/en/books/view/40642/sri_gur_panth_prakash_rattan_singh_bhangoo_volume_1

Also I will ask the gursikh sangat to read into rumis works and caste and compare gurbani we find too many similarities that are hard to miss. We can criticise Prophet Mohammad but how about rumi what are his flaws? Rumis poems are sold in punjabi, urdu, persian, even some bookshops that sell books on gurmat stock this I have heard him mentioned by older sikh scholars in there narrations of sikhi so I would assume even todays modern day scholars on sikhawareness should be well versed about rumi.

http://www.rumi.org.uk/

Obviously, Gurmat is a path which all should follow. But we do not beleive in saving souls like the Semitic faiths do. Sikhi does not condemn anyone to hell just because they do not beleive in Sikhi. Eventually when Khalsa Raaj will happen, Muslims, Christians, Hindus will become Sikhs, not out of fear(like how Christianity and Islam were largely spread) but because Gurmat is the truth.

Rumi was a good, spiritual man from what I have read. I cannot say anything bad about him since Sikhi forbids us to say something bad against saintly men.

lol shaheed singh beat up mohammad love that one. We have to understand there is alot of hate written about muslims after Guru Gobind Singh ji's time but how about Guru Nanak's time?

So what did Guru Nanak do in all these muslim countries that no scholar has fully investigated into yet? Why have they just built mosques there and what are the sakhis in syria- damsucus- according to islam jesus christ is supposed to descent in damascus via following mohammad's path. Additionally we notice gurbani is written in rumi style what significance would quran have apart from spirtual paragraphs in the quran there are alot of prophecies written in them? There were alot of prophecies written in the bible but they turned out false by the pope and christianity has fell apart recently.

Do we put the foundations of sikhi moreso then on bhagti marag such as bhagat namdev, bhagat ravidas and understand guru sahiban to be based solely on that only to grace abrahmicism from the encounter with sheikh ibrahim producing sheikh farid ji bani which were based for the intent of wajjat al whuud but taught moksha and delivered mukhti. Do we understand an estoteric tradition to be an organised religion.

Shaheed Singhs beating up Prophet Mohammad when he came to help Zakrya Khan is mentioned in Bangoo's Panth Prakash. You can laugh at this all you like, but it is not more laughable then your fantasy induced claim that Guru Nanak Dev Jee was a reincarnation of Rumi and Mohammad.

Guru Nanak Dev Jee went to the middle east not because he was a Muslim or because he was supposedly impressed by Islam. He went there to do the same thing he did when he went to the important religious destinations of the Hindus and Buddhist i.e. Parchar of Gurmat. Gurmat is the Teesar Panth, distinct from Hindu and Muslim faiths.

Okay as for aisha age that was something done in that time the age is disputed ask what age your great grandparents got married keep asking generation up and up and up it get's younger and younger. It sounds wrong but some of the guru sahiban married there wife when there wife was 11. Mass murderer he killed jews in wars, they were attacked- we would say he started it but other islamic scholars say they were attacked and defended themselves.

So if others do sin, that makes it okay to commit sin? what kind of logic is that? Oh, I forgot that is Islamic logic. Our Gurus were also living in a time period when pedophilia was common place. You say, the wives of our Guru were young, well so were the Gurus when they married. The age difference between the Gurus and their wives was only a few years if not the same age, that is not pedophilia. Not just our Gurus, even the founders of other religions did not commit pedophilia even though pedophilia was common during their time period. Buddha never committed pedophilia, Jesus never committed pedophilia. Mohammad did commit pedophilia.

If you ask a muslim about sikhs in guru gobind singh ji's time and sikh raj- they probably think we didn't like the idea islam does not allow drinking and as the punjabis we are we went to beat the living tatti out of them which is misunderstood history and are comparing sikhs of that time to those of this time who like to drink, do drugs, rave and do every act of hedonism/satanism and not many muslims have read sikh history and just like you don't expect a sikh to read islams history why would you expect a muslim to read ours. Even though guru sahib taught us to study other faiths. Most muslims have misunderstood islam just like most sikhs have and only take a few points away and there are alot of sikhs who think the meaning of sikhism is to kill muslims and hate muslims the only thing they see is the photos of shaheedi and see how sikhism is just about being against muslims.

I never mentioned Muslims of post Mohammad's period. I am mentioned Prophet Mohammaded directly and his actions. According to the Quran and Hadiths, Mohammaded was a pedophile, had dirty eyes towards women who were not his wives, was a murdering bandit, torturer, mass murderer of unarmed civilians, owner of slaves, approve prostitution, approve wife beating, kill anyone who leaves Islam, rape captured women and even approve captured women to be raped in front of their husbands.

Additionally mithar I contributed to your list of sources aswell about those things. The concubine thing was done in that time, hindus did it, christians did, jews did, everyone did it and the arabs were terrible- muslims say that they were supposed to stop it and claim they have been given a prescription to kill it down as well as slavery. Sikhs who went to east africa went mental with slavery, enslaved and raped kenyans what happens when those kenyans raise these matters with our descendants - will they accept sikhi? Sikhs did what aurangzeb did in east africa they took over the area converted people and took women. Or do we expect them to look into it and see that raping women was not allowed in sikhism. And as for slavery plus drinking these were skewed interpenetration of religion. Alot of muhammad's marriages were to very old women mainly alot were widows and provided a source of protection aswell. How many sikhs today would marry a widow even though there are no straight found strict prohibitions on polygamy. There is alot more on that stuff there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_wives

The concubine thing was done during the times of our Gurus as well, yet the Gurus never had any concubines. If everyone else owns a slave, does that make slavery okay in your eyes??? people during the times of our Gurus owned slaves, yet none of our Gurus were slave owners.

As for your claim that Sikhs were also slave traders or owners and rapers of slaves in Africa, show me proof of Sikhs owning slaves in Kenya or raping them. This is a lie. Like most Muslims, instead of owning up to your wrong doings, you point fingers at others in order the deflect the issue being discussed. The fact that Mohammaded raped a 9 year old girl who was playing with her doll during the Suhaag Raat will always prove he was not man of God. Further more, he also had a dirty eye for his own daughter in law Zainab. And this is the man you are defending and justifying??? Our Gurus never did any of those disgusting things. Our Gurus were the purest of beings ever born. They were the Jyot of Vaheguru.

Some of the history of sikh guru sahib from muslims is full of insults calling them a dakhu and sikhs would also steal from jizya tax during aurangzeb time to feed poor- aurangzeb went too far as well with poll tax. The system is that muslims have to pay 2.5% charity non-muslims pay less and are protected by muslims. Only muslims can join the army and protect those people offcourse this played out wrong in iran, afghanistan, pakistan, india and bangladesh probably even arabia these people destroyed the livelyhoods of everyone forcing them into islam. In terms of a forceful conversion in Islam it is not allowed to convert anyone to islam forcefully- aurangzeb was a forceful converter. In terms of someone leaving islam it is allowed however if they leave islam they have try to attack islam then they have to be executed.

There is criticism of marriage in sikhi from muslims here: http://www.islam-sikhism.info/fem/wife01.htm

Then how do you explain Mohammaded massacreing the Jews of the tribe of Banu Quraiza? they were given a choice to accept Islam or death. Yet they preferred to stay true to their own faith. Mohammaded ruthlessly had all of them beheaded, their wives and children were distributed amongst the Sahaba as slaves and sex slaves. This isn't Aurangzeb's history, this is prophet Mohammad's history which all Muslims agree to. While the Banu Quraiza were butchered by Mohammad's merciful justice, the other tribes escaped.

Also tell me, why did Mohammaed allow rape of captured women??? Guru Gobind Singh Jee never allowed rape of captured women. Infact he instructed Sikhs to not even think dirty thoughts about women even in a dream.

As for sarbat da pala don't judge islam from aurangzeb, or zakir naik or any of these salafi or wahabis or anyone of these fake scholars who declare sufis and sikhs as kaffirs. The moghuls equated kaffirs- non-believers of islam as animals in which you could do anything to do them rape women, kill etc. However prophet muhammad refrained in haddiths from harming animals and made lawful meat of halal by saying a pray for it. When we talk against halal meat that is the bani of sheikh farid which the sufis read as well. Islam is far from those who believe in it and the religion is not understood by them and far lost under attack but the same can be said for sikhism and sikhs are in far worse trouble of confusion and being astray we have so many sharabi, bhangra gigs going on.

Okay fine, I wont look at Aurangzeb, Zakir Naik or any other Wahabi Deobandi scholars. But tell me, what about the proofs I showed you from the Quran and Hadiths itself that show Prophet Mohamad was a pedophile, mass murderer, rapist, murderous bandit(Daku), torturer, had a dirty eye for women(even his daughter inlaw!), forcible converter etc etc?

Guru Nanak on being a Muslim

SGGS Page 141:

ਪੰਜਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ਵਖਤ ਪੰਜਿ ਪੰਜਾ ਪੰਜੇ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਹਲਾਲ ਦੁਇ ਤੀਜਾ ਖੈਰ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥

ਚਉਥੀ ਨੀਅਤਿ ਰਾਸਿ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਜਵੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਨਾਇ ॥ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਲਮਾ ਆਖਿ ਕੈ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਸਦਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇਤੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੩॥

Panj nivājā vakẖaṯ panj panjā panje nā▫o. Pahilā sacẖ halāl ḏu▫e ṯījā kẖair kẖuḏā▫e.

Cẖa▫uthī nī▫aṯ rās man panjvī sifaṯ sanā▫e. Karṇī kalmā ākẖ kai ṯā musalmāṇ saḏā▫e. Nānak jeṯe kūṛi▫ār kūrhai kūṛī pā▫e. (3)

There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.

Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.

Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord.

Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.

O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. (3)

(SGGS p141)

SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran. Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim. Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant. Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will.

FIRST MEHL: There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names. Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God. Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord. Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.

SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one. First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away. Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life. As he submits to God’s Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit. And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim.

Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind. The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud.

Be kind and compassionate to me, O Creator Lord. Bless me with devotion and meditation, O Lord Creator. Says Nanak, the Guru has rid me of doubt. The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same.

To be Muslim is to be kind-hearted, and wash away pollution from within the heart. He does not even approach worldly pleasures; he is pure, like flowers, silk, ghee and the deer-skin. || 13 || One who is blessed with the mercy and compassion of the Merciful Lord, is the manliest man among men. He alone is a Shaykh, a preacher, a Haji, and he alone is God’s slave, who is blessed with God’s Grace. || 14 || The Creator Lord has Creative Power; the Merciful Lord has Mercy. The Praises and the Love of the Merciful Lord are unfathomable. Realize the True Hukam, the Command of the Lord, O Nanak; you shall be released from bondage, and carried across.

I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim. My body and breath of life belong to Allah — to Raam — the God of both. || 4 || Says Kabeer, this is what I say: meeting with the Guru, my Spiritual Teacher, I realize God, my Lord and Master.

After Guru sahib becomes satguru nanak having come from his ishnan he says no koi na koi musalman- no hindu, no muslim- the muslims didn't care he said there no hindus but were offended why he said there are no muslims and he gave the bani himself to why there are no muslims being:

SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one. First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away. Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life. As he submits to God’s Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit. And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim.

maharaj has said mohammad's name.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Muslim

You are looking at this Shabad from the perspective of Akhree Bhav. This shallow translation is done by 3ho. Even the translator who has very limited knowledge of Punjabi, Braj, Sant Bhasha has admitted to it's limitations as his translations have done much to confuse people. I would suggest you look at Prof Sahib Singh's Punjabi translation the Darpan found online. Look at this link which he has translated:

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0141.html

While the Muslims have their 5 Nimaz taught to them by Prophet Mohammad. This Shabad by Guru Nanak Dev Jee tells us as per Gurmat what are the 5 Nimaz of Sikhs which are distinct from the Islamic Nimaz just as Guru Nanak Dev Jee showed as per Gurmat what is Aarti for the Sikhs at Jagannath Puri and how it is distinct from the Hindu Aarti.

The fact that Guru Nanak Dev Jee has not mentioned prophet MOhammad even once in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee shows how little importance they gave to him. Only Guru Gobind SIngh Jee has mentioned him in Sri Dasam Granth and as per the tenth master, Prophet Mohammad was selfish who started his own Deen instead of the Deen of Vaheguru.

Even according to Panth Prakash, the Shaheed Singhs beat up prophet Mohammad when prophet came to try to help Zakaria Khan from his last days. So forget Jagat Guru, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee, the prophet Mohammad cannot even equal the power of the Shaheed Singhs.

I remember someone said sikhi is better then islam because of even my displayname we have the tendency of sarbatdapala . Jesus taught this, buddha taught this even muhammad taught this at some points as well and krishna probably taught this aswell and sufis taught it as well.

No, prophet Mohammad did not teach this.

On 5/1/2011 at 9:32 AM, sarbatdapala said:

Those times muslims were even against the sufis. The amount of respect Guru Nanak has for islam even makes one think is he a muslim himself?

 

NO! you are the only one having these weird delusions of Guru Nanak Dev Jee being a Muslim. Instead of showing us Islamic sources, please show us direct in Gurbani where Guru Nanak Dev Jee says "Mohammad ur rasoolalaah". Surely if Guru Jee was a Muslim, he would have mentioned the name "Mohammad" even once in his Illahi Bani. But he has not mentioned him even once which only proves he gave Prophet Mohammad absolutely no importance. Going to Makkah does not make Guru Jee into a Muslim. Guru jee also went to the holy places of the HIndus, does that make him into a Hindu? Guru jee also went to Tibet, does that make him into a Tibetan Buddhist? the answer is NO! What you fail to realize is that Guru jee went all over the world to do Parchar of Gurmat.

Please listen to the Japji Sahib Katha done by Giani Takhur Singh jee for a deep and profound analysis of Guru Nanak Dev Jee and his Bani.

We as Sikhs are indirectly following a proportion of haddiths of the prophet muhammad

Sarbat, please explain how are Sikhs following the Hadiths?

Are you sure it does'nt take place in panjab? I've heard its the same there?

Not the same as here. Here it is more extreme. In the pends there are several Gurdwaras per pind. I have rarely heard of people in the pends fighting like in the west where it is more common. Same thing with the city folks in Punjab. I have rarely heard of city folks fighting over a Gurdwara. It is more of an NRI thing.

In the case of this recent fight from what I have heard is, the Jathadar of the Gurdwara didn't want to step down even though his term was over, so it seems the opposition took matters into their own hand, but the Jathadar's gang was also ready for a fight.

they aired the video on sikh channel also... thats good.. let people see how pendus we behave

I don't know about calling them Pendus since in pends of Punjab we have several Gurdwaras in a single pind but hardly any cave man behavior we are seeing in the west. Gurdwara issues in the Pinds of Punjab are usually resolved through dialogue. But here in the west it seems instead of getting more evolved we have taken a few steps back on the scale of evolution and have turned into cavemen like our distant ancestors. Can you imagine due to this cavemen behavior Sikhs display in the west, police come into the Gurdwara with their shoes on. It is not police that is to be blamed but our own fools who cannot act responsibly.

There were loads of muslims who became sikh, even in afghanistan when sikhs captured that land the married the women of that region as well kurds, pathans, turks, arabs, persians, etc. so afghan sikhs have alot of mix in them aswell. Having also converted alot of the muslims to sikh in those regions. Sardars had many wifes just like akbar to understand the people it is best to marry there women tactful advancements.

Wah jee wah Sarbat!!

The infinite within us is far greater than the infinite outside us.

Very interesting statement. Please explain this.

it was covered by the NEW YORK TIMES! an international newspaper. you cant get better coverage than that.

removing the youtube clip is too little, too late.

Plus what dalsingh said lets face up to it. it seems the only way this may well happpen is by sheer embarrasment from the public exposure.

You would think that after the big fights last year in Gurdwaras in Canada, and the over all embarrassment Sikhs faced, the American Sikhs would learn a lesson. But no, they had to show the Canadian Sikhs that American Sikh are second to none when it comes to embarrassing the wider Sikh community.

And again some idiots have managed to use the Kirpan during the fight. What the media doesn't understand is that we call the 3 foot long tulwar and our short and often harmless Kakkar dagger both with the same name i.e. "Kirpan". Either way, it is the Kakkar dagger Kirpan which will suffer even though it has never been used during any fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inK4n9GiFgQ&feature=player_embedded#at=47

apparently this is the clip as shown on ss.com.

That was total war in that video. How embarrassing if non Sikhs get to see that. I think the guy how ever posted that video should think about the embarrassment of the wider Sikh community and just remove it. People who post these videos on the internet do not think about the implications of their actions.

I remember when a fight broke out at some place in Ontario Canada between Ghagha group and Taksali Singhs a few years ago, the Kala Afghanists came prepared with cameras just for the purpose of video taping a fight and then posting it all over the internet. They don't realize how this will not serve anyone's agenda but just embarrass all Sikhs in front of non-Sikhs.

That site has a pro Kala Afghanist agenda

The guy is such an embarrassingly simple minded dick that I'm not even sure if I'm unhappy about him leaving the faith.

LOL, I still can't stop laughing when I saw this video again. The EDL guy who was warning Britain about the "Mooslamic" threat has finally found his match.

see this sikh convert to islam there is going to be more of this throughout india and punjab

This man obviously has a low IQ. This disturbing incident was actually a little funny. He has no knowledge about his own Dharm. He wants to become a Muslim because he wants his bones intact even after death. Then he says he used to get Muslims who were forcing him to convert to Islam, but now he is doing it on his own free will. Another reason he gave was that his mummy does not make kheer as good as the one Muslims make during Eid. Obviously this brother has a sweet tooth and is converting because of the kheer LOL It's almost like a non-Sikh becoming a Sikh because he likes Parshaad.

I suspect this brother of ours is not too serious about becoming a Muslim as his reasons for becoming a Muslim were the dumbest reasons ever. I predict he will revert back to his original faith sooner or later.