Mithar

Again, we need to find out what makes Sikhs like this. My money is on them having close Muslim friends and not wanting to offend them, or these relationships effecting their perceptions of Mohammad.

What I find strange is how they often fear coming out with it openly like men, and instead prance about the issue. If I felt Mo was a cool geezer, I'd say it, regardless of what others are saying and how they might feel about it. But these people seem to have no backbone (sorry to say).

The biggest danger is some of these geezers converting and slying pretending they are still Sikh. I know some 'hero' sullah did that to some other quom back in Mo's time. So there is a precedent.

I think that a lot of Sikhs like many other non-Muslims(and even Muslims themselves) in regards to Islam are either ignorant or just out right in denial about Islam and Prophet Mohammad. I was also one of those Sikhs not too long ago. I also used to beleive that Islam is a religion of peace, Prophet Muhammad was a peaceful, saintly man much like Jesus, Moses or Buddha etc. But after reading faithfreedom.org website my eyes were opened.

I also have some Muslim friends who are actually nice people. But it seems that they themselves are quite ignorant about their own faith. This is an observation Ali Sina the founder of faithfreedom.org also has. He says that most Muslims in the world are nice people who are just ignorant about their own religion and prophet Muhammad which is why he created faithfreedom.org which is mainly run by ex Muslims to educate ignorant Muslims about Prophet Muhammad and Islam. He has actually succeeded in convincing numerous Muslims to leave Islam.

Thing is zakir naik's views are quite extreme not every muslim agrees with these views as some haddiths are unauthentic so people have different views rape in islam was haram. This is probably why in 1947 sikh women were raped in the millions due to those writings.

No, in Islam only rape of Muslim women is Haram. According to Islamic sources rape of captive women is allowed if she is a non Muslim. Forget Zakir Naik. But what about the Quranic and Hadith sources which themselves prove the above mentioned facts about Prophet Mohammad?

Brother Sarbat, it is extremely strange that on one hand you beleive that Jagat Guru, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee was Rumi and Mohammad in his previous life and that too without any shred of evidence, so it is only based on your fantasies or imaginations. We have historical proof of Mohammad being a pedophile, mass murderer, thief, slave owner, rapist of captive women, torturer yet you are not willing to beleive it because historical facts do you match your romanticized version of Prophet Mohammad's life. So you are just blindly believing in a mythic Mohammad based on fantasy rather then the actual historic prophet Mohammad.

First please provide the evidence of mohammad being everything you wrote, and then we take it from there.

Proof Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile and rapist is his marriage to his child bride Aisha who was only 6 during the Nikah and 9 during the Suhaag Raat. I doubt any 9 year old willingly consented having sex with a man who was old enough to be her grandfather, so yes this is also proof of rape.

Proof of Prophet Muhammad being a mass murderer is his genocide of the Jewish tribe of Banu Quraiza in which 700 Jewish men were beheaded and their women and children were distributed amongst the Sahaba as slaves.

Proof of Prophet Muhammad being a slave owner and trader take a look at this link which shows numerous excerpts from the Quran and Hadiths:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/015-slavery.htm

Not just prophet Muhammad, he even encouraged his followers to rape captured women when they came to him asking about the azl method of birth control. Check out this link which proves beyond doubt that Prophet Muhammad allowed rape of captive women and also indulged in rape:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/femalecaptives.htm

Even Zakir Naik doesn't deny Prophet Muhammad being a slave owner and having sexual rights over a slave.

So do you belive in everything writtn in Bhai Santokhs Singhs Suraj parkash? If I remember correctly he says somewhere that his book was written with the grace and guidance of Guru Gobind Singh himself after deep contemplation for years at some river bank.

Do you also belive that everything Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale wrote to be true (ie Guru Har Rai had 8 wives? ) though there are no other historical sources to mention this.

Kavi Santokh Singh Jee wrote what he wrote based on what he heard. Every saakhi he heard whether it was verified or not, he just wrote it down which is why it is not considered a Sikh canonical scripture. We Sikhs determine which Sakhi is reliable by testing it if it is in line with Sikh canonical writings which are SGGSJ, writings of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee, Bhai Nand Lal Jee. While Kavi Santokh SIngh Jee's monumental work is respected by the Panth, but no Sikh considers it to be a canonical Sikh scripture while Muslims consider the Hadiths to be canonical along with the Quran.

The hadiths by Bukhari are considered the most reliable sources on the prophet mohammad. Unlike Kavi Santokh Singh Jee, bukhari did not just blindly write down every thing he heard. He diligently verified each and every thing before writing it which is why the followers of Prophet Mohammad beleive in the Hadiths as the most reliable sources there is about Prophet Mohammad. Bukhari himself was no ordinary man, he was actually a genius, they say he had all these Hadiths memorized by heart. Non of the Hadiths can be said to contradict the other Islamic canonical writing which is the Quran.

It's really strange that you as non Muslim are questioning validity of the Hadiths, while Muslims who literally LIVE ISLAM and die for Islam as true believers in the message of Prophet Mohammad and his Quran beleive it to be the most reliable source on Mohammad.

We have brahmgianis in different jathas that contradict each other. So what you make of this? In discussing history its better to look at valid historical sources than just "this and that baba said so".

sorry if i offended anyone.

But the difference is, neither prophet Mohammad nor the writers of the Hadiths were Brahmgianis. A Brahmgiani is not some small entity. What to talk of prophet Mohammad, a Gurmukh Brahmgiani is greater than even Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva.

You said:

In discussing history its better to look at valid historical sources than just "this and that baba said so".

The only valid and primary historical sources on the life of the Prophet Mohammad are the Quran and the Hadiths. But on another thread you dismissed Quran and Hadiths suggesting that they may not be reliable since they do not show prophet Mohammad in a positive light. You cannot just pick and choose when you want to use the Quran and Hadith card when it suits your argument. If you accept the Quran and Hadiths then you must accept that Prophet Mohammad was a pedophile, mass murderer, slave owner and trader, rapist, forcible converter and warlord.

If the Hadiths say he was all of those things, when why is it difficult to accept what Sant Jee said to be the truth?

There is no historical evidence to validate the above stories. Thats why i said lol.

Sant Jee is telling the truth, he being a Brahmgiani validates the above stories. There are a lot of things that we ordinary people cannot perceive, that Brahmgianis can. Because of their advanced spiritual level, they have access to knowledge of Trekaal (past, present and future) and divine knowledge. So Bachans of a Brahmgiani are much more valuable and credible then Mohammad his Quran or the Hadiths in my view.

The Dasam Granth contains many secrets which Sikhs are not aware of. By listening to the Katha done by learned Gianis, these secrets can be understood.

Avesta Zorostrain prophet

From this picture it looks like Zoroastor is wearing a traditional Punjabi dress of chaadhar(loongi) and kurta which today is mainly worn by bhangra dancers. Using your logic of forming similarities based on pictures can be deduce that Zoroastar was a Bhangra dancer?

On a serious note, the biggest tragedy to have happened to Persia was it losing it's original religion of Zoroastrianism and becoming an Islamic nation, a legacy of Arab imperialism. Hopefully one day, Iranians will realize this and go back to the faith of their ancestors.

You know rumi says in one of his works he was muhammad of the past so if we take literally maybe he was mohammad reincarnated and generally under reincarnation doctrines the virtues of that soul are preserved it is that the character of the past life will show so a famous prophet becomes a famous saint such bhagti has to follow through could mohammad be guru nanak? it is insane probably to say such a thing and paap. But prophet muhammad did alot of miracles he split the moon in half, his hair is still alive till today when human hair degenerates in 80years and if we believe in reincarnation he did alot of paap aswell from our perception however in that time those things were acceptable would such bhagati follow through? We do know prophet muhammad clearly had alot of knowledge of hinduism from the quran and haddiths he is teaching concepts which go back before his time from buddha, krishna, jesus, brahma, ram and further on even though he was illiterate.

Where does Rumi say he was a reincarnate of Prophet Mohammad. I would like to see that. And no, Guru Nanak Dev Jee is not Mohammad. Please refrain from insulting Guru Jee by coming up with such imaginative fantasies. How can you think Guru Jee can be a pedophile, rapist, slave owner, mass murderer, forcible converter, thief and torturer in his previous life?

The things which were common in Prohpet Mohammad's time period were also common during the times of the Sikh Guru period, yet the Gurus never became pedophiles, rapists, slave owners, mass murderers, thiefs or torturers.

Mohammad was the only prophet who did not perform miracles in the Semitic tradition. The story of Mohammad splitting the moon is fake. It is only mentioned in a Hadith. Surely if prophet Mohammad had done such a great miracle such as splitting the moon then it would have been recorded by astronomers world wide at that time period. For example, Chinese astronomers have accurately recorded astronomical happenings visible to the human eye for thousands of years which is even confirmed by NASA.

As for the existence of prophet Mohammad's hair, how is that a miracle? we have human hair surviving from ancient Egypt. You are reading too much into Islamic propaganda.

And how is pointing a finger a cause for similarities between religions? That's the most superficial similarity I've heard.

He has no appreciation of money. He's just throwing it like it's nothing to him.

This one says it all.The guy can't even deny it but instead resorts to denigrating what Americans are doing in Guatanamo as a defense.

Nothing to deny. I still don't understand how a religion of God allows rape of captured women during war? If a Sikh does it, he is going against his religion, but if a Muslim does it he is just doing what his prophet had done and what the Quran says. Yet we still have people thinking that Sikhi and Islam are similar. As a Sikh, I find that more of an insult.

The study of Islam should be done from it's primary sources which are the Quran and the Hadith, not from overly optimistic view presented by some western academics. Many of these western academics are usually on the payroll of Soudi money. Western academics have a habit of presenting Islam as a religion of peace and the source of world enlightenment and progress. For example, if you read India's history through such historians, they will present Islamic rule over India as being the greatest thing to have happened to India, but reading Sikh history we know how oppressive and suffocating Islamic rule was over our own region of Punjab, let alone India as a whole.

What is to account for the similarities between Islam and Sikhism? In terms of does it validate the revelation of the quran? Additionally Islam says those who learn the truth about it and reject it will go to hell.

How can the Quran be a revelation when it contains so much animosity for non Muslims(Kafirs)? Sarbat, do you honestly think that a revelation from Vaheguru would have so much hate? Gurmat is worlds apart from the Quran/Islam. Just take a look at your own name "sarbat da pala", it means Sarayiaan dhaa pala! not just Sikhaan dha pala. Does the quran have any just message for all of humanity? Answer is no! Quran and Mohammad are nothing for Sikhs.

It is because immigrants disturbe ethnic and Religious ratio.If Sikhs continue to leave Punjab and UP Bihari kept coming then the day is not far when sikhs will be less than 50% in Punjab .I am eagerly waiting for the declaration of Full census of India. My dad is saying This time Sikhs will be less than 50% of Punjab's population while I say that it could be around 55% .Lets see who is right.

I think the Sikhs should see this as an opportunity to do parchar amongst the Biharis and make them Sikhs. That way Sikhs will maintain majority.

I expect this case to go on and on forever. Nothing will happen.

Is there a reason behind chanting simran very loudly when doing kirtan - as in AKJ style? The almost shouting, beating of the tabla; very aggressively etc. Its quite common these days with many kirtaniye.

On the other hand I think you have Guriqbal Singh, who does it quite slowly and softly.

Is it a personal preference or is the effects different from a spritual/psychological POV?

I think it is JOSH. The more a person has josh the louder they will do kirtan and simran, and that has the effect of making the sangat also very josheela.

good fight.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh,

I was reading one of the Teeka that Kam veer has uploaded on gurmatveechar.com. I came across some things for which I would like to read more if someone has something to tell.

From where I can get Panderea (15th Yantar), Chauntiva (34th) Yantar, and Akdam Chakar (Shabad Sidhi). Is there more information on these and any related details?

Thanks

Sorry, I have no idea about this stuff.

From which page number did you read this info from in the teeka?

??

The leading section of the invaders (the Anglos) cleverly caused prominent Sikhs (whom they patronised in both senses of the word) to distance the faith from anything even remotely smacking of what is called Hinduism. These Sikhs seemed to identify with and aspire to the perceived world view of the new overlords. Which shouldn't surprise us as they were educated in their institutes.

Hence these Sikhs pushed for gender equality more vocally than at any other time previously (post 1708). Seeing as whitey (even now) uses the gender issue to beat men of colour with, it's no wonder Singh Sabhias reacted in this way. There acts in effect, where attempts to identify with the invading culture, not distance themselves from it.

This makes a lot of sense. I feel this movement amongst Sikhs of trying to encourage girls to behave and act like boys really as a reactionary movement to European/British culture. Although I think Singh Sabha movement had a lot of positive contribution towards the Sikhs, but this aspect about encouraging masculine behavior amongst Sikh women was unnecessary.

Dharmically, yes they are both equals, but socially they have different roles in society. I feel the later Singh Sabha movement attempted to make the Sikhs socially genderless, where by both men and women would play the exact same role in society and family.

Whenever you hear of feminist type Sikh girls give examples, they always give examples of a warrior type woman like Mata Bhaag Kaur, yet they never give examples of more feminine Sikh women like Bebe Nanki or Mata Gujri who were not only Dharmic but also devoted to their families and played a more traditional role of taking care of the family as devoted wives, sisters, mothers, daughters and grandmothers.

The Pathans revolted because the war was against the Ottoman Empire whose head was also the Caliph. No similar situation was involved with the Sikhs. If anything they would have relished a chance to fight the 'turks' given how turks are regarded in the rehatnama literature. The only situation which could be regarded on par would have been the 1984 attack and many Sikh soldiers also mutinied as the pathans had done during world war 1.

True. For the Pathans, it was also an Islamic duty to stand by their Khalif. The Calif on his part had also declared a Jihaad knowing how many Muslim soldiers were in the British army, he probably thought they would all mutiny. But only the Pathans did. Interestingly the Punjabi Muslim soldiers remained loyal to the British despite the fact that the opposing side was the Khaliffa.

While the British were occupied with WW1, Sikhs in India in the form of the Gaddarite movement were planning to overthrow the British rule known as the Lahore conspiracy case. If the Sikhs had succeeded, then it is very likely that India would have become independent way back then as Ireland was. But due to a traitor it was not meant to be.

During 1984 many Sikh soldiers had mutinied and some were even butchered or imprisoned as a result, many lost their jobs. But the Indian army was also smart that they had before hand separated the Sikh regiments to far off corners of India so it would be impossible for them to reach Punjab in case of a mutiny. Most of the work the Sikh soldiers were used for was for the cleaning up of Darbar Sahib complex after the attack was finished.

Have you read Dasam granth? answer in sincereity. if not why you are charting on a subject that you do not know.

Whole dasam granth is written by tenth master. i have read it many times and i challenge your fake professors

who are 10 standard and write as professors to discuss the subject with us on public tv.

LOL, what a great quote by Singh2

I have read what Gurukaameet wrote .Unfortunately that does not justify Sikh women marrying Muslims or Hindu's .What equality they get in those Religion?What I said in that thread I am repeating in this thread too there not one but plenty of Sikh families who treat their daughters with equality respect but still they end up with Hindu husbands.Manmohan singh's daughters are fine example of this.They all are very highly educated yet none of them is married to a Sikh.

Also let me tell you I have 6 cousin sisters ,none of them are married to Sikhs.The one which are married are married to non sikhs despite all the Equality dignity respect given to them.Even the younger one are quite hopeless case.At best I can that maximum of 1 or 2 end up marying Sikhs if that is possible

That is true. I have seen this in my family also. I have a cousin who was also treated with a lot of equality and freedom. She was highly educated. But when she turned around 24, she puts khay on the heads of her family and married a Madrasi. I have seen this all too often where this so called western style freedom is practiced by foolish fathers and mothers. This is especially true for the daughters of Sikh army officers, nearly all of whom marry non Sikh men.

Sikh women should be taught the examples of the women of the Gurus household. They were religious, pious, devoted to their families and Dharm. They were good daughters, sister, wives, mothers and grandmothers. They were the ideal women. Western culture and freedom is not that good when applied to family, it corrupts one's daughter very easily. One should give a mix of traditional plus Sikh values to their children.

I have heard that the PMKC Jatha teach a special technique of Japping Naam. Does anyone know what it is? Do they follow traditional Khalsa rehets like doing Nitnem (7 Banis) and wearing Kakkaars? What makes them different from other Sikh groups?

Take a look at this link from the site faith freedom:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/news/tea-party-group-sues-ohio-schools-that-blocked-event-by-man-who-urges-conversion-from-islam/

It shows a picture of an anti Islam rally. Is that a Singh in the picture of this rally. From the Pagh style, it looks like a Namdhari Sikh.

That site is weird anyway. On a number of occasions they've added extra lines to comments I've made and subtly edited others. They were the ones who celebrated and defended Niki Haley despite her leaving the faith (and joining the US Republicans!)

This just all goes back to that inferiority complex towards goray too many apnay have.

That's true. Many times, my comments have not even ended up showing. When it does end up showing, they add a few lines or even delete some. Strange people. Obviously with such editing and deleting going on, they are not an open minded people as they like to present themselves as who can digest different views. This all points down to a people with an ulterior motive.

I have found sikhchic and langarhall to be sites mostly dominated by Sikh coconuts. If you are a Sikh then you should be proud to be one. I'm not saying go wear Bana and dress like a Nihang, but at least don't condemn someone else for doing so. I myself wear pants all the time. Only sometimes I wear Kurta Pajama to the Gurdwara. But whenever I see Sikh men wearing Bana I feel proud of them but never would I feel embarrassed or think why are they not dressed in western clothing.

I think that such article are written by coconuts with an inferiority complex who intend it to be read by nonSikhs. They want to show them, "Hey look what an a$$ kisser I am of western culture, now please accept me as one of your own".

I'm afraid that is due to them being recorded and not looked after. The originals are in a poor quality and due to it there isn't alot you can do to clear them. however those who are genuinely interested in the recordings will always gain something no matter what the clarity is.

Veerji when ever you get the time, can you please reload the second part of Adhyatam Prakash katha done by Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowalwaly. All the other parts are good. But most of the second part is blank.