BhagatSingh

8 hours ago, amardeep said:

I'll see what I can find. There are rahitnamas that talk about the name Singh for men and Devi for women. I have'nt seen kaur anywhere.

Which makes sense.

@jaikaara bhaji told me that in the Rajput community, they commonly refer to other Men as Singhs regardless whether they write Singh in their name or not, . And I know from my own experience that in India, Women are referred to as Devi. One example is the modern phrase "Deviyon aur Sajjano", which is used as "Ladies and Gentlemen".

On 2016-11-25 at 4:15 PM, amardeep said:

Found it! @BhagatSingh

Cool stuff.

I am also interested in seeing references to adopt 'Singh' and 'Kaur' second names. Some people say Kaur isn't mentioned. It would be interesting to see the original source where it is mentioned (if it is mentioned).

Do you have reference to 'Singh' and 'Kaur' on hand?

What Paramnam said + Do it all the time, in all activities!

10 hours ago, amardeep said:

Bhagatsingh: The Chaupa Singh Rahitnama talks about the Keshdharis and the Sehajdharis.

Amardeep that's interesting. Do you have the reference on hand?

On 2016-11-20 at 4:04 PM, amardeep said:

In early Sikhism the keshdhari and amritdhari was the same...

I don't think this is the case.

11 hours ago, nbf12345 said:

In modern Sikhism, do they essentially serve as a core of people who, having taken amrit, maintain the strict ideals of Sikhism as a sort of service to the Panth as a whole?
Was it always intended to be a select group of Sikhs?

Khalsa was the army only. They should uphold the core principles passed down by the 10 Gurus and they should be ready to fight in battles at a moment's notice. And so the disciplines for being a warrior, keeping yourself healthy, etc all followed. These disciplines are not required by the general Sikh population.

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Or did the Guru intend for all Sikhs to follow the way of the Khalsa, or perhaps be amritdhari in other words?

No he did not intend all Sikh to be in the Khalsa army. Of course he wanted the khalsa army to be as big as possible but he also recognized that many Sikhs would be unfit for the army.

11 hours ago, nbf12345 said:

And was it a later date that sehajdhari's emerged as an alternative level of Sikhism?

I think words like Sehajdhari and Amritdhari emerged during British Rah to categorize Sikhs.

When these words are understood in the context of Guru Granth Sahib, they mean the same thing. However when understood in the context of public sphere then they are referring to two very different groups of people.

5 hours ago, paapiman said:

All Sikhs are required to get Baptized. Baptism ceremony is mandatory in Sikhism. Even before the formation of the Khalsa, Sikhs were Baptized by the Gurus (all previous 9), but the ceremony was different.

Sehajdharis (the ones born in non-Sikh families) are not obligated to get Baptized.

A lot of families gave 'Khande da Amrit' to children after they are born. However we do not call these children Amritdhari.

All Sikhs were initiated by their Gurus via Charn Amrit. This was a tradition wide spread in India. So all Sikhs were baptized by Gurus. All Sikhs of 10 Gurus were baptized by the Gurus. Some did it through Charn Amrit , others did through Khande da Amrit.

However unlike previous Gurus, Guru Gobind Singh ji's baptism was for creation of Khalsa army also, so not all Sikhs underwent this special initiation.

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Do you know about "Afur Avastha"?

Yes, very intimately.

12 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, can you please provide more details on Vipasna meditation?

Basically-  first, becoming aware of your thinking  and second - watching your thoughts flow by and not reacting to them.

10 hours ago, paapiman said:

He was a Brahamgyani and well above most human instincts/weaknesses. He used practical means to teach Gurmat to the sangat.

This is where you are wrong. Brahmgyanis are not above human instincts and desires in the way you think they are. To say that Brahmgyanis don't have desires in the way you understand it, is simply not true.

1. To be "above desire" is to be aware of it. To say Brahmgyanis don't have desires means - Brahmgyanis are hyper aware of their desires and their desires do not control them, the desires do not run their lives. Their desires are tools, not the tool-users.

Your desires are your tools. You must make this distinction and learn to see this in yourself. You can be Brahmgyani in one instant if you see this.

2. And they only speak the truth. They say what they embody and if they embody silence then they are silent.

3. So Suthra ji was experiencing hunger, but he could have gone full day or weeks etc without eating if he needed to. He was hungry and Guru Sahib had said, whoever you think is most hungry, feed him first. 

4. Suthra ji looked inside himself and acted truthfully (truthful living). The first person he saw as hungry, was himself. So then Suthra fed himself.

This is speaking the truth. None could be more truthful than this. It would be especially hard to speak the truth like this in the company of Guru Sahib or someone you think is important.

5. The "technically correct" thing to do from public perspective, was to feed Guru Sahib, but Waheguru is not looking for "correct" things to do. Waheguru feeds on a diet of Truth. The correct thing to do from the perspective of Waheguru is to speak the truth.

6. Now just because Suhtra ji fed himself, doens't mean you should feed yourself in this manner. Paapiman maybe if you were in place of Suthra ji, and you felt your hunger but saw that Guru Sahib needed to eat first, then if you fed Guru Sahib then you would also be speaking the truth.

Doing the correct thing =/= speaking the truth. It is different for everybody.

Suthra Shah teaches how to Speak the Truth

"The Guru was present, sutra then put the langar in a plate, and said to the guru who should eat first guru ji, guru ji said who you love most give to them first. sutra thought about it, and then started to eat it himself. the sangat was shocked, sutra then replied to the sangat i am going by the gurus hukam, first pangat and then sangat! first my stomach is calling, then everything else comes next!! Then he fed the Guru."

From the quote in Bal Rehal's post.

Speaking truth is not about speaking the correct thing. Speaking truth is whatever is true to your experience.

No one is more honest than Suthra even when he is bringing in crap and passing it off as a present for Guru Sahib, just to see Guru Sahib.

He is acting from the core of his being.

What he embodies, he expresses.

That is speaking truth.

Good post Singh and welcome to the forum.

Dr. Jordan Peterson on Truth

I respect this guy a lot. I have learned a lot from him. He talks about truth here starting at 17 minutes.

Worth the watch.

If anyone wants TLDW let me know.

5 hours ago, tva prasad said:

just goes to show how high God's bhagts are.

Yes by chanting Ram naam, Kabir ji merged into Ram. By changing Ram naam, Hanuman ji merged into Ram.

God's devotees have merged into God. By singing their praises you can obtain God.

Kavi Kalya ji says -

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਰਿਦਿ ਧਾਰੰ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਗੁਣ ਸਹਜਿ ਬਿਚਾਰੰ ॥
Enshrine the feet of the True guru in your heart and patiently meditate on the virtues of Guru Arjun Dev ji.

20 hours ago, paapiman said:

ਲੇਖਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪੁਛਈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਬਖਸੰਦਾ॥

21 hours ago, tva prasad said:

hanuman is one with ram g so there is no distinction between them so where ever there is ram there is hanuman g. Just as the drop falls into the ocean it becomes the ocean.

Exactly by meditating on Ram Naam, Hanuman ji merged with Ram ji. Atma merged into Parmatma. Droplet merged into Ocean.

Now the droplet is indistinguishable from Ocean.

So Bhagat Tulsidas ji says in Hanuman Chalisa (my translation) -

Ram rasayan tumhre pasa; sada raho Raghupati ke dasa.
You (Hanuman) possess the essence of Ram; you always remain the servant of the Raghu King.

Tumhre bhajan Ram ko pavai; janm janm ke dukh bisravai.
Those who sing your (Hanuman) praises obtain Ram; their suffering is eliminated in each birth.

Ant kaal Raghupatipur jaie; jahan janm Hari bhakt kahaie.
In the end, they enter the kingdom of Ram; and wherever they take birth they are known as the devotees of Hari.

Aur Devta chit na Dhar e; Hanumat sei sarv sukh kar e.
They don't need to worship any other deities, they can obtain all happiness and peace just from meditating on Hanuman.

21 hours ago, tva prasad said:

do u actually have Vishnu g whispering in ur ear?

Nobody is whispering in my ear lol. I think he is referring to your other thread where I replied to Ragmaala saying "you must listen to and obey your inner Guru."

4 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

I think it's the other way round.

Lol

4 hours ago, amardeep said:

When Kabir uses the word Ram, is he talking about Ram (as in God) or is he talking about Ramanand, his Guru.

Yes. 

Kabir ji is talking about Ram that same way you might talk about Waheguru.
Ramanand ji also prescribed to this belief system, that's why he is named Ramanand.

So when I say Kabir ji meditates on Ram Chandra ji. This makes a lot of people uncomfortable because this is outside their view of reality. They start thinking is Kabir ji not worshipping Waheguru? Is he worshipping someone else?

No, Kabir ji is worshipping Waheguru. However he is calling Waheguru as Ram Chandra ji. Kabir ji does not use the word Waheguru once. He uses the epithets of Lord Ram.

So how do you find this out for yourself? The way you tell is what other words does he use and what kind of lore does he use, the epithets.

Kabir ji uses the following epithets -

ਰਘੁਪਤਿ - Raghupati - Master of Raghu clan
e.g. ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਰਿਓ ਨ ਏਕੈ ਕਾਜਾ ॥ ਭਜਿਓ ਨ ਰਘੁਪਤਿ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੧॥

ਰਘੁ ਰਾਇ -  Raghu Rai  - King of Radhu clan
E.g. ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਭੋਲੇ ਭਾਇ ਮਿਲੇ ਰਘੁਰਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੬॥

ਸਾਰੰਗਧਰ/ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ  / ਸਾਰੰਗਪਾਣੀ Sharangdhar, Sharangpani, - Wielder of the Sharang Bow
E.g. ਤੋਹਿ ਚਰਨ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗੋ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ॥ ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜੋ ਬਡਭਾਗੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ / ਰਾਮ ਰਾਇ - Raja Ram, Ram Rai - King Ram
E.g. ਗਾਉ ਗਾਉ ਰੀ ਦੁਲਹਨੀ ਮੰਗਲਚਾਰਾ ॥ ਮੇਰੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਆਏ ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਭਤਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥  ॥

many others as well.

This part of the analysis, is looking at their vocubulary and use of words.

There's more to it than that but you can start here and start thinking about what Kabir ji is saying and whose epithets he is using.

Looking at epithets and what they mean and where they originate, is a good place to start.

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They do a lot of kirtan of this song in India. This sums it all up. Listen to it.  

If Kabir ji was alive today, he'd be enjoying this kirtan.

I imagine, he'd have it in his Ipod or whatever and be rocking to it, while operating machinery to make clothes in some factory. lol modern julaha

46 minutes ago, tva prasad said:

who's jasbir...?

That's what I was wondering lol. Maybe he's got me confused with someone else.

43 minutes ago, tva prasad said:

ram chandar is Vishnu avtar who is NOT akal purukh because he has an end he has a beginning and an end. The ram talked about in gurbani is waheguru. Ram means present everywhere, in everything.

Ram means 'pleasing'.
Vishnu means 'present everywhere, in everything' ie Akal Purakh, Waheguru.
(Ref - Vishnu Sahasarnama, Sanskrit Dictionary)

Ram Chandra ji is considered an avtar of Vishnu ji, that is to say, there is no distinction between Vishnu and Ram. Vishnu is one who is present everywhere, in everything, thus you can say Ram is present everywhere, in everything.

The body has an end and beginning. However consciousness does not. It's important to make a distinction between the body of Ram and his consciousness, his being.

When Saints are referring to Ram, they are referring to consciousness, Purakh (Akal Purakh). When Bhagat Valmiki ji was writing Ramayan, ie story of Ram Chandra ji, he was referring to Akal Purakh descending down to Earth and... well you know the rest.

So come to Hanuman ji, who did bhagti of Ram ji and merged into him. If he merged into that which is present everywhere and in everything, then where do you think you will find Hanuman ji?

53 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

Guru takes care of everything, as long as you are under his instructions & hazoori.

Ragmaala, this is a good way of putting it.

We must speak to our inner Guru, and see to it that we do whatever he guides us to do, and to perform those actions in his presence. Ultimately he takes care of it all.

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

They do match in parts in terms of devotion.

It is all devotion. That's why people initially can't tell which religion is what because they don't have knowledge or experience of it. They just see it has to do with devotion, or they might accept every devi devte under a banner without understanding these are different religions.

Then there are these guys, who find out its talking about devi devte. But then they reject everything, either by cutting it out as these guys are or by whitewashing it as metaphor and denying that it has any connection to Puranic religions. So they know these stories, etc have some deeper meanings but they reject the container of those deeper meanings, as "hindu" and distance themselves from it.

Above all of this, is finding out the reality of devi devte, the deeper meanings, then experiencing this reality and seeing how various religions intermingled to produce this outcome, seeing how it all comes together. To be fully aware, detached and to know a lot from a state of not knowing (It's weird). From this place you can decide whether to keep those parts or cut them out based on your understanding and the circumstance of the time, etc.

3 hours ago, Guest jsa said:

ram chander ji was not akal puakh

Depends on which religion you are talking about. In Guru Granth Sahib he is. In Ramayan he is. In other writings he is not.

3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Becasue according to Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib, Sri Ram Chander took the whole nagri to sachkhand with him. Yet Hanuman was fated to stay in Prithvi lok as long as the name of Ram was known. According to my own knowledge/instruction, Guru Nanak released him from this duty so he could go to Sachkhand.

I'd like to see the quote. However I think I already understand where this Allegory is going.

"Hanuman was fated to stay in Prithvi lok as long as the name of Ram was known"
Hanuman ji is there wherever there is Ram naam.
"Guru Nanak released him from this duty"
Then same with Guru Nanak, who is present wherever there is Ram naam.

These guys have merged into the Supreme Soul, Ram, so they are indistinct from him. ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ In Kaliyug, he was known as Nanak, Angad and Amardas. So wherever there is Ram Naam, he is present there.

So in English - God is present wherever his devotees are chanting his name.

It's the same sentiment as  - ਤਹਾ ਬੈਕੁੰਠੁ ਜਹ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਸਰਧਾ ਲਾਇਹਿ ॥੨॥
Guru Arjun Dev ji says - My Ram, Vaikunth is there, where your kirtan is taking place. You yourself have given us this devotion.

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While Hanuman demonstrated by tearing his chest in the Royal court showing the name of ram in his chest, his body was still here. That is where the question comes from.

Right because Ram Chandra ji is Narayan, he resides inside everyone. So the allegory of Hanuman ji ripping his chest and showing Ram Chandra ji resides in there is to show he is fully immersed in Ram naam. That individual consciousness, Hanuman, has merged into universal consciousness, Ram.

So I was talking about merging of your consciousness into Ram, not the body. But your question about body is an interesting one.

Thing is if your body merges with Ram, then it's not like you are jelly and Ram is a jelly and you combine those two jellies together lol and get bigger jelly.

In my experience, when body merges with Ram, it becomes a vehicle for Ram. Whatever you do, you will feel it is not you (meaning ahankar, ego identity) who is doing it, it is Ram who is doing it. Tasks become effortless so to speak. You don't seek fruits of your actions, because they are not your actions exactly. You have become ਨਿਹਕਰਮ, without action. Ram performs all the tasks.

ਸੰਤਾ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਜਿ ਆਪਿ ਖਲੋਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਕੰਮੁ ਕਰਾਵਣਿ ਆਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥

So Hanuman ji having lost his sense of self, had Ram shine through him and perform his actions. So you have the allegory of him ripping his chest and showing Ram shining through.

When Bhagt Dhanna ji worshipped Shaligram (a black stone which he thought was Shaligram, also known as Thakur), then he was going in there looking for some thing that would do his labour. He was expecting a body come out of it and expecting that body to do his work.

What happened was that in worshipping the stone, he entered into a state of being where -
- He lost his sense of self, there was no Dhanna, only Ram
- The burden of his 'self' was not weighing down on him.
- When he performed actions they became effortless
- He felt that things were getting done all by themselves

So Dhanna ji eventually realized that - ਸੰਤਾ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਜਿ ਆਪਿ ਖਲੋਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਕੰਮੁ ਕਰਾਵਣਿ ਆਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ - even though he might have been expecting something else. So then he merged in Ram.

I can say that wherever there is Ram naam, Dhanna ji is present there. Because there is no difference between Dhanna and Ram. Like there is no difference between Kabir and Ram. ਰਾਮ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਏਕ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥੬॥੩॥

Ravidas ji says to Ram - ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥ ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥੧॥  You, Me, Me, You, what is the difference? (No difference) The difference is like Gold and Jewellery, like Water and Waves.

Once the Jewelry is destroyed it nothing but Gold.

On one hand that banis in Rehras that are not from Guru Granth Sahib, do not match Guru Granth Sahib in terms of religion. On the other hand their reasoning for removing them because it has to do with devi devte is poor. They are largely ignorant on the subject of devi devte, as are most people.

2 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

Did the bodies merge as well ?

Where is this question coming from?

Yes. Reread my post I edited it after you took the quote.

@paapiman

It's about speaking what you embody. That is the truth.

If you embody the idea that you must always state facts then you will tell the assassin where your brother is even if you desire to save him. Then you must give accurate facts to the assassin for you it would be truthful to yourself.

And if that means your brother dies then so be it. You face the consequences either way.

For each person it is different.

Reducing "lekha" depends on the individual because people lift different kinds of burden. I might call you ugly and you think, ok sure whatever. No effect. I might call someone else ugly and they get depressed. This is because of individual differences.
 

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If the truth can harm someone, then stay silent.

It's not as simple.

Like you Paapiman need to be told that you are accumulating a lot of information without understanding it and integrating it. That might hurt you but you need to hear that. I know that to be the truth and I embody it so I must say it.


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You must always speak the truth but what you speak and whether or not you speak depends on the situation. Because truth can be spoken while being silent also.
 

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Stating facts is not speaking truth. To speak the truth, you must recognize Hukam and learn to align yourself with it.

Question -
Kiv sachiara hoyiye kiv koode tute paal
how to be truthful and break through falsehood?

Answer -
hukam raza e chalna nanak likhia naal
Nanak says, by recognizing hukam and walking with hukam at every moment (that's how you can be truthful).

Once you practice recognizing the truth (hukam) then truthful living (hukam raza e chalna) will come easily .

Hanuman ji merged with Ram ji. There is no difference. When Atma merges into Parmatma, you cannot see distinctions. When Atma merges into Parmatma, then you become Chiranjeev.

You look inside you will find Hanuman ji there.

On 2016-11-16 at 7:33 AM, tva prasad said:

I thought hanuman ji was a shiv g avtar.

Anjana and Kesari followed Shaiv dharm and worshipped Shiv ji. Whereas Hanuman ji had become Vaishnav, and oriented himself towards worshipping Vishnu/Ram ji.

There is no difference, both are names of Akal Purakh. The only difference is the religious structure, stories, and belief system. Shiv ji has different stories. Vishnu ji has different stories. This makes it seem as if they are two separate entities.

Agyani people twist and distort the stories because they do not recognize the underlying truth.
And Sants and Gurus too use these stories however their knowledge of the stories is limited or the knowledge of their sikhs is limited so they also have trouble fully explaining the whole truth.

You must meditate and first learn to recognize the Supreme Soul who is known as Vishnu / Shiva, etc because ultimately the stories, the images, the religions, etc fall by the way side, only the Param Purush who is known as Vishnu / Shiva will remain.