jvalasingh

http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/2010/01/form-of-sarbloh-avatar-passage-from.html

Please post comments

You choose Nihangs? So you also justify consumption of cannabis?

Sarbloh Granth is by Sukha Singh and not Guru Gobind Singh.

Your logic is hilarious

So the question was Pandit Tara Singh Narotam vs Nihangs

He picked Nihangs, so you questioned the Nihangs beliefs. Thats fine.

What about Tara Singh Narotams belief that Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind SIngh were the only Puran Avatars out of the 10 Gurus. The other Gurus, according to his belief, were not Puran and were a lower level of Avatar.

So you also believe this? If so that is quite blasphemous

Krishnavatar from Chaubis Avatar in Dasam Granth

(from the best of my memory, will double check)

Five points casting doubt on the ascribed authorship of Guru Gobind Singh.

1. The work is marked by extraordinary effusiveness and discursiveness of style, compaired to the compactness, so characteristic of Guru Gobind Singh's compositions collected in the Dasam Granth. Qualitatively, too, the poetry of Sarabloh Granth does not match that of Guru Gobind Singh's Chandi Charttras and Var Durga Ki dealing with the same topic of wars between the gods and the demons. The profusion of metaphor and superb imagery of the latter compositions are missing here.

From my understanding and reading of Sarbloh Granth this is not entirely true. In Dasam Granth, if you look at some of the Rudhra Avatar sections, very similar type verses are used, i.e. Bisanpad etc.

Very similar chands are used as well.

2. The author of Sarbloh Granth often uses his name, 'Das Gobind' or the phrase 'Das Gobind fatah satgur ki', which is generally contrary to the style of Guru Gobind Singh.

What about the famous passage that is read in the daily liturgy by all Sikhs, "Bahe gahe kee laaj aas Gobind Daas Tuhaar", which is in the daily Rehraas Sahib (after Chaupai Sahib). That line is from Ramavatar in Dasam Granth, and there are many other passages in Dasam Granth where the same terms are used.

3. The Sarbloh Granth contains, quite out of context, an account of the Sikh religion, which also includes a reference to the devolution of guruship on Guru Granth Sahib and Guru Panth (stanzas 3159-66). This would be out of place in a work of Guru Gobind Singh's own composition.

What about the praise of the Khalsa in Dasam Granth? (i.e. the shabads, Judh kitey in hi prasaad). If Maharaj praised the Khalsa then why cannot he declare that Khalsa is also my Guru?

4. There is also a reference in it to Rup Dip Bhasha Pingal (stanza 2938/ 8), a work on prosody written by one Jaya Krishna in 1719, i.e. eleven years after the death of the Guru.

This is something I have been looking into but I cannot seem to find where this mention of Rup Dip Bhasha Pingal comes up. The verse number is either incorrect or the claim is of no substance.

5. It uses dass Gobind or Fateh Gobind yet mentions Guru Granth Sahib being Guru. This means it is written after Guru Granth Sahib received Gurgaddi

Again look above at the quote from Dasam Granth which says, 'Daas Gobind'.

if Guru wrote it then it wouldn't be dass gobind but Gobind Singh. that is if Guru was going to use his own name. But Guru Ji used Nanak as all Gurus had Guru Nanak's jot. So why would Guru Gobind SIngh Ji use something else? If 5th Nanak doesn't have permission to change 1 word from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then how did 10th Guru get permission to change Nanak to Gobind?

This is a common argument used against Sri Dasam Granth. If one believes in Dasam Granth then this would not even be a question. The authenticity of Dasam Granth has been debated various times on this forum and can be researched elsewhere, I'll keep this thread focused on Sri Sarbloh Granth.

Ithitaas???

Other then Rattan Singh Bhangus works i am not sure what ithaas has actually been preserved by the nihangs? If there are Ithaasak Granths which i am sure there are can they be named and where they are available from.

I mean the more seena-baseena tradition of Khalsa traditions, which are distinct from the Nirmale and Udasian Panths.

Also since their worship centers around Shastar Pooja and Bir Ras Gurbani the concept of Devi and Bhagauti is extremely important to them, much more so then to Nirmale and Udasis.

I see, well it would have to be the Nihangs who believe in such a philosophy because in reality that is who it concerns most, as their specialty is in Jangvidiya and Ithitaas.

That logic doesn't exactly follow either as the creation of the Khalsa is as Akal's own army, as Guru Ji has stated in Sri Sarbloh Darbar. Why would Guru give this status and then rely on the Goddess to fulfill it?

I understand your point, however you have to understand that these devi-devtey have roles and places in our system of belief. The line, ikaa maie jugat viaee thin cheley parvaan, ik sansari (brahm), ik bhandari (vishnu), ik laee di baan (shivji), from japji sahib. A parallel question can be asked, why does Brahm, Shiv and Vishnu exist? They exist for a reason, that does not mean the One Lord is lower or anything, its just His khel that these beings have certain roles/duties.

as far as what i have read, and listened to on this this, the form of chandi was the sword, not the 8 armed devi. Chandi gives Dusht Daman the bachan that in kalyug i will protect you as the sword, not as the roop that she was in at the time ie 8 armed goddess.

As far as I have understood from Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji, student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, the sword and the 8 armed Chandi are the same, they are just different manifestations of Adi Shakti. Adi Shakti is the source and as manifestated Herself over all the yugs as different forms to protect Dharam, in this Yug She can be seened and worshiped in the Sword (and other weapons).

That would mean Guru Hargobind Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Did pargat of a Devi when they went to war

That logic doesn't exactly follow because the importance of the Devi was not just for Maharaj himself going to war it was for the creation and benefit of the Khalsa.

In Suraj Prakash it says, "I have placed you in the lap (godh) of Sri Kaalika (devi)"

The act of devi becoming pragat was for the benefit of the Khalsa Panth in yudh (after Maharaj had left). That is why when he was explaining to Sangat before he left, not to worry about the future, he said you are in the protection of Sri Kalika (our mother, Adi Shakti).

It goes back to the mythology of how Dusht Daman helped Chandi in Satyug and Chandi promised to do Dusht Damans seva in Kalyug. This is Chandi's seva, Adi Shakti's seva, to instill Her Shakti into the Bhujangi warriors of the Khalsa Panth to eradicate Adharam.

That is a very good point to note. I personally have no belief that Guru Ji did aradhna of the devi for her to become pargat prior to the birth of the khalsa or yudh. They are full belief in akaal purkh and state 'Tehee Durga Saaj Kai Danta Da Naas Karaiya'!

Why would Guru Ji need to do this when their form was of Akaal purkh what is the need of any being when you are superior int he first place. (Aap narayan Kaladhar Jag Mai Parvariyo)

In no way does it lower the standing of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. From my understanding it was the Pandit who was trying to get Devi Pargat, but it was only until when Maharaj came that She became Pargat. She then told Maharaj, take my Karad [a small dagger], and make your Panth carry this, and I will always be there for their sahiathaa [protection]. This is why we have, Sri Bhagauti Ji Sahai.

I think this concept is only accepted by the nihang samparda as everyone i have spoken to from the four other sampardas do not accept this notion as all!

I would be very surprised if such well read Sant Mahapursh from the Nirmala Sampradaya do not also believe this. Have you had contact with any? I am talking about Nirmalas who have studied in the traditional manner and carry out the puratan traditions. The only difference is their aim/directional focus in Gurmat is more akin to Brahm Gyaan and not to Dharam Yudh on a phsyical level, which makes them less interested naturally in aspects such as Shastarvidiya, Jang Vidiya di Marayda etc. That doesn't take anything away from their own, that makes sense because you focus on what you are good at and what you want to achieve. Nihangs have shastarvidiya, Nirmale have shaastarvidiya. Furthermore I would be very surprised if the Udasi Sampradya does not believe in this as well, as they have a more Shiv type focus to their approach, it would be natural to include Parbati/Chandi etc.

Have you spoken to the traditional heads of these Sampradays? (i.e. the Mahants at the Nirmala and Udasi Akharas?) If not I do not think one should make such generalizations.

Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji, student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale, made it very clear to me that Devi [Adi Shakti, Chandi etc], was here for the protection of the Panth, and it was from the Devi whom we have received are Kirpan (karad) from.

Gyani Gurdev Singh Ji, who was also a student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, is the one who told me that the devi wasn't made pargat at Naina Devi. There was a pundit there who thought he could trick Guru Sahib and make a profit, like he used to with the locals. So he told Guru Sahib to give him all the supplies to perform a massive havan so that he could get the Devi on to their side. Rather than give the supplies and leave, Guru Sahib stayed, much to the dislike of the Pundit. To cut a long story short, Guru Sahib supplied everything that was asked for but of course no devi appeared. On the last day, out of despair, the pandit said that a holy person needs to be sacrificed to please the devi before she appears. Guru Ji said, 'no problem, who is holier than you?' and the pundit legged it. Guru Sahib laughed and they came down from the mountain.

Gyani Ji says that was how Sant Ji explained the episode while doing katha. Baki Rabb Janne.

I agree that Mata Sahib Devan is correct.

I guess different Mahapursh have different ways of looking at sakhis, based on their experience or knowledge.

Great posts by Pal 07, really great.

Matheen, if you ever have a chance to get the blessed darshan of Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji, student of Giani Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, you should ask him about this sakhi.

When I met Giani Ji I too was confused about this subject. I asked him about the nature of Chandi/Adi Shakti etc. He quoted the philosophy expanded in Gurpratap Suraj Granth saying that the Devi gave the Khalsa their Karad (kirpan).

Many vidvaans and mahapursh still believe in the sakhi told in Gurpratap Suraj Granth and also in Gurbilas Patshahi 10.

To add note to a comment made in Pal 07's post:

i also believe that Chandi is Mata Sahib Kaur mother of the Khalsa

This is the traditional understanding in the Nihang Dals and in puratan itihaas (history). It is also why Mata Sahib Kaur's real name, before Singh Sabha intervention, was Mata Sahib Devi/Devan. If you go to Hazur Sahib, there is a Gurdrawa near the Takht which is called Mata Sahib DEVAN Gurdrawa. It is where Mata ji did her tapasya in a previous jug as Chandi I believe. Nihangs are the caretakers of this Gurdrawa.

Sorry I have not got aroudn to completing the photographing of it. I will do it shortly.

Why not go the whole hog and have an Akhand Path of Sarbloh Granth as well. Remember that was the 'secret' text that Nihangs wouldn't show to the Europeans so chances are that had Malcolm not been present the Akalis would have had Parkash of three Granths rather than two.

So when is the Akhand Path of Sarbloh Granth happening?

The late Jathedar Baba Santha Singh Ji organized an Akhand Paat of Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib I believe in 2003. I wouldn't be shocked to see another one happening in the next couple of years outside India.

mahasamadhi,

its best to go take a trip down to Sacha Sauda, its off of Steels road, and see what you like for yourself

The Giani Kirpal Singh (Satogali) Steek provides for historical stories that go along with certain shabads to provide context for the shabad. Many find that very beneficial.

The most basic one is Sahib Singh's, and is generally what most people use. However because he interprets Gurbani from his own understanding of Grammer in Gurbani, this leads to small differences here and there from traditional understanding of Gurbani.

Either way you can't go wrong really, its all good I think, just get what you like, whats easiest to read etc. I believe Sacha Sauda also has the first pothi (volume) of the Damdami Taksal steek of Guru Granth Sahib. This steek has Japji Sahib, Rehraas, and KIrtan Sohila. The Punjabi is meant to be not that complicated, but it is extremely extremely indepth, as in they give many different interpretations/meanings for various lines.

Best thing to do is just check out the shop, I love it, I always end up picking up a box full of books I go visit.

if you are in GTA area go to the store, Sacha Sauda. http://www.sacha-sauda.ca/

It has every type of book you could imagine, sikhi related. It has most Steeks that are available and see what suits your taste, you can get from Bhai Sahib Singhs, to Satogali (Giani Kirpal Singh).

Check it out, its an excellent source for Sikhi related material. I get all my books from there.

not to sure singh, i believe it is on the 25th 26st?

http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/2009/12/tribute-to-patshahi-10-passage-from.html

Please share your thoughts

Direct, maybe, realistic noway

On the street the technique of setting up a guard and punching properly is good to know, but its extremely basic.

Simple counter to any boxing is a good kick to the groin.

If a boxer is facing any Singh who has big karas, all you have to do is put your guard up and let the boxer break his knuckles/fingers.

Boxing is extremely unrealistic. It is purely focused solely on one aspect which is punching. Mind you they are extremely good at punching and avoiding punches, which is a great positive. But what happens when you open up other dimensions of fighting? Well you can see the result if you watch UFC. They put pure boxers in there and they got destroyed by people who knew other aspects of fighting, i.e. kicking, grappling, locks etc. The more dimensions you open up the more you need to know.

On the street its totally open, no restrictions, which makes for an extremely dangerous and unpredicable fight. Even UFC is not like fighting on the street, because on the street you can pull hair, strike eyes/groin, throw items etc, all of which expands the dimension and creates for a lot more opportunities to get hurt. This is why when you train you should train with all of these possibilities.

Boxing is good, but that's just one section of fighting, and a very small one.

Maha Singh is better to elaborate why due to his experience in Shastar Vidiya.

just for your information dalsingh

the book discusses very deep philosophical issues such as duality, maya, etc.

lol

Another thing to think of is, Did Akali Kaur Singh de-robe Bhai Randhir Singh (AKJ)? He must of know Bhai Sahib was against meat and Raagmala.

Let me start off by saying I have received amrit from Budha Dal and respect the traditions of the Nihangs and other sampradays, but this topic is absurd.

Honestly lets think what the difference is between a Nihang bana and a Taksali bana. You said they are different thats why Taksalis wear that bana. They both don't wear pjyama, they both wear dresses that come down past their waist. The only difference is that Taksalis have a different slit at the bottom of the dress, instead of having the middle open like Nihangs, theirs is closed to cover their kachera while sitting, which they do for extended periods of time. Only other different are the gathra holders on the shoulders and breast pockets, both of which came into style due to the British army uniform, they do not appear to be worn before the time of the British.

Like a member said on this board, go view old Rajputs and Mughals from that time period they all use to wear these types of dress, its called a Jamah. The style Nihangs wear now is a slighty modified jama.

If you read historical books like Gurpratap Suraj Prakash Granth you'll see that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj wore many different types of bana, ranging from a blue warrior jama to the well known Sadhu/Nirmala bhagva style of robe.

If you read the old historical books they do not even mention what type of dress Singhs wore, it wasn't an issue many didn't even wear cloths. The main bana, or uniform, was simply a Dastar, Kamarkasa (extremely important), and Kachera. Nowadays if you look at most Nihangs they do not even know how to tie a kamarkasa properly to hold their shastars intact and secure without the use of a gathra.

Sure Nihangs can claim some things like the farla tradition, but going on a mission to de-robe any premi seems ludicrous. Will you do the same with the Adh Chand?

Instead of cussing the Akhand Keertani Jatha for wearing Bana and not respecting the Nihang traditions, maybe your initiative needs to go to the Nihangs, who claim to be great warriors but very few even spend time to practice their Shastar Vidiya. No group is without faults so if you claim to be in a group help fix those faults.

http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/2009/12/guru-gobind-singh-ji-giving-sermon-to.html

Why is it that there is so much on various gods fighting in Dasam bani and Sarbloh? And what lesson is there to learn from these stories?

Singh another thing to understand is that people can relate to the stories as well. These were commonly told stories, i.e. the stories of Ram and Krishna.

Mathen responded well but I think there is more to it than what he said.

Sikhi is simply amazing. It can be as simple and as complicated as you want it to be.

As can be explained by Sant Mahapursh Vidyans of our Panth, Dasam and Sarbloh bani is extremely subtle. If we understand different Devi-Devtey and Raksh as to represent different Guna's (qualities) then we can make it extremely complicated and talk about how each good quality fights bad qualities within ourselves. This is a basic understanding of it, it goes much deeper.

In Sarbloh Granth this idea is quite explicitly mentioned with large passages just dedicated to identifying why the Demon army represents Avguns (bad qualities) and the Devi-Devta Army along with Sarbloh to represent the good qualities. It goes into extreme detail, for example it talks about Bibek is greatest warrior for the good qualities. Then it explains that Bibek's wife is Brahm Gyaan, and goes further to describe the kids etc etc.

Sarbloh Granth is quite amazing like that. One part Gyani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji mentioned to me was, if we all remember in Japji Sahib, 'Gaavan tudhno poan pani besantar gaavai raja dharam duare', that pauri is explained in detail in Sarbloh Granth. It talks how all these things do Pooja of Akal Purkh. For example it talks about how the Wind/Air worships Akal Purkh because on Air our speech rides, when we say recite His Name the Wind/Air does seva of moving it etc.

Sorry kind of went off of topic lol Hope I answered your question

Are you saying that that is the entire shabd or that it is only the 1st pauri of the shabd?

Sorry, that is the full shabad. However there are a few shabads after which are also in persian.

I'm planning to translate some passages that describe the a battle as well, the coming passage I will translate is interesting because it is similar to passages I've read in Dasam Granth, the parts in Bachitar Natak which hvae the word, 'Nihang' in them.