Kaljug

Strange, the link to that video on youtube and even the account has been deleted.

Maybe it was something I said?

K.

Fateh!

In Sikhi, the avatars like Krishna are considered to be created and eventually destroyed by Akal Purakh (see especially Sri Kal Ji ki Ustat in Dasam Granth). They all led their devotees to worship themselves rather than Karta Purakh due to their haumai (see Dasam Granth, Chaubis Avatar).

The Gita is part of the Vaishnavite tradition which considers Vishnu to be the Supreme Brahman and not just one member of the trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva) so there is no contradiction in Krishna saying he is avatar of Brahman in the Gita and Gurbani saying he is an avatar of Vishnu. However, I'm pretty sure that Krishna is said to be an avatar of Vishnu in Bhagavad Gita (it's been a long time since I read it).

Anyway, it's a great granth to read and does illuminate many aspects of Gurbani, as do the principal upanishads, Kabir's Anurag Sagar, and even the vedas are an interesting read.

The best book I have read on Gorakhnath in English is Akshay Kumar Banerjee's Philosophy of Gorakhnath. You can find some of his writings on Mike Magee's website www.shivashakti.com.

Regards,

K.

Yes, last points are true, lol at the vids. Here is better fusion:

Naw, prefer the original ramkali:

;-)

K.

I'm not sure.... - I do believe fusion is confusion, unless the fusion has come from a divine source!

Anyway - I'm not sure how guys who are preaching on one hand, and making money through hip ho ptrash culture songs on the other are supposed be taken seriously or even inspire - it just corrupts 'good boys' IMO, and creates a confused new generation of Sikhs who think this music is some sort of kirtan.

I have rarely seen Sikhs move on from this trash, some may put on a dhamalla, get some big karai and buy never4get84 T-shirt, but that doesn't make them a Sikh.

These kids are better of listening to Baba Ranjit Singhs (Dhandrianvalai) dharna/kathaa, whose Punjabi and kathaa is simple yet entertaining to understand - yet drives home the basic points in a respectful fashion in a respectful environment.

The whole bhangra scene and its masterminds have a lot to answer fo i.e. taking youth out of the Gurdwarai and into nightclubs - later crying that there daughters and sisters are being prayed on by kalai, gorai, Pakistanis....

But this dharmic bhangra - IMO is going to create a whole host of new problems... just wait and see!

Fateh!

Fusion can be good, if it is created by masters of the different modes of music.

Remembering Shakti:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAy28PKhVFA...feature=related

Zakir Hussain beatboxing ( ) :

I have seen good young Sikhs who started off as Punjabis listening to Manak and drinking whisky at 14, then started listening to Gurdas Mann's dharmic songs, or in some cases people like Tigerstyle and the like, before being led to Sikhi proper. I've also met Gursikh kids who didn't really have any pride in their Sikh heritage until people like Tigerstyle made Sikhs more mainstream. Yes, they should have already been proud of their heritage without worrying about what other people think, but not every kid is that naturally brave. On the other hand, I have yet to meet Sikhs who were brought up on raag kirtan, Gurmat katha, and Sikh literature degrade into bhangra-dancing glassi-holding Desi DNA watching bewakoofs.

But, and this is a pretty big but, this kind of parchar to Punjabi youth estranged from their traditional Sikh culture can only be done by rehatvaan Sikhs. Kuldip Manak singing dharmik geet then turning round and singing about sharaab will just confuse the hell out of vulnerable kids who already feel out of place.

Regards,

K.

Its really upsetting to see this really decayed side of our youth.

And yet it exists.

There is always the hope that this kind of parchar, though neither traditional or tasteful (at least not to old fogeys like me), will inspire some Punjabi who is never going to walk into a gurdwara or a library, to do some research on real Sikhi.

Like it says in the song:

always look on the bright side of life!

Kaljug.

She is entitled to her little box views, but I am so surprised nobody gave her backhander, what a stupid ahankaari way to do parchaar!

Fateh!

If you disagree with the woman, or give her a big thappar, the result would be something like the last few seconds of the following (with kamlee as the peasant):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434

K.

Can we get bit of background on her? I heard she did very good work for dalits human rights in UP and human rights in general. She was very respective of other religions before. But all of sudden she made this U turn. Any more info on her would be greatly appreciated.

Her real name is Kamlesh Ahir. Here is a video of her discussing caste discrimination amongst Sikhs in Canada:

http://blog.insightyv.com/?p=114

Whatever her contribution towards battling caste prejudice, she has not been able to let go of her religious prejudice since she has been shrieking her claims that everything is based on Buddhism and that Buddhism is the One True Religion all over the airwaves. For her, every disagreement with her ridiculous views are as a result of caste prejudice not because they are historically false or utterly stupid.

Regards,

K.

Kalyug, nice showing of your Gurmat gyan with your post and choice of words. It is because of language of Gurmukhs like you that whole kaum loves to take khanday kee pahul and is Amritdhari. Keep up the good work fella.

Fateh!

Thanks for your kind words, veer ji.

I want to thank you also for inspiring Sikhs to read Dasam bani with greater care and for showing us all the dangers of trying to interpret our Father's writings with Kala Afghani's manmati views.

Regards,

K.

But the 'British' are very clever they know that opposition causes the enemy, if he has some backbone, to become tougher. So what do they do, they co-opt them, they destroy them internally, not covert opposition, but subversive, hidden opposition. They create destruction and have the destroyed people shaking their hands and thanking them for taking away what is most precious to them. "We will show them a Maya Mahal a palace of mirages so he gives us everything and thanks us profusely and sets off on the journey to the palace that he can never reach and does not exist." And that my friends is our sad state, the 'british' have led us to, down the royal road of non-existence.

Fateh!

Yup. A Syrian friend of mine told me that the Arabs still have a saying about the cunning and deviousness of the British in politics. The Arabs say, "If two fish collide in the sea, the British are behind it". ;-)

K.

I strongly disagree with you here. What you are talking about here was related to Sikh sovereignity and fighting corrupt rulership. There are so many contemporary sources that record dasmesh pita wanting to inspire Sikhs to fight for and gain this (patshahi). That is very different to fighting for a foreign force and their agenda.

Fateh!

I actually agree with you, veer ji. Mithar's post sums up quite well what I feel about British rule.

My main points were that a soldier's amrit sanchar was no less sacred for having the pro-British rehat attached to the end of the traditional rehats, and that the British realised that Amrit was the source of shakti for the Khalsa, and used this knowledge to their own ends by sending Sikh soldiers to chak Amrit. I was not implying that the original purpose of Amrit was to serve British imperialist intrerests. My apologies for not being clear enough.

Regards,

K.

I know, but I always thought of the Amrit sanchar ceremony as sacred.

I'm not sure if the British were concerned about Sikhs but rather they saw that teh strength of the Sikh army lay in its religious foundations. I think they possibly tried to exploit that to their own ends.

Fateh!

The sanctity of the Amrit Sanchar is not damaged by adding a few extra prohibitions to the rehats that accompany the gift of Amrit. AKJ and DDT both have additional rehats that are not found in the older rehats of traditional samapradays(this is a point of contention, but let's not go there), but that does not mean those initiations are lacking in any quality of sanctity.

In my opinion, though the English did not mean to do so, they actually reinforced the original reason for the amrit ceremony - to empower a single Singh to fight 125,000, and to obtain mukhti on the battlefield.

You are right on the second part - source of the Khalsa's shakti is in Amrit.

Regards,

K.

Can someone summarize all related post of this whole thread so far so that we can close this thread?

Fateh!

- Mahakaal in Dasam Granth is the same as Ram, Narayan, Akal Purakh, etc etc in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Overwhelming evidence provided by singh2 is too numerous to summarise.

The assenting opinions:

- Mahakaal cannot be God because he has said nothing about Mangoes. (Balbir Singh)

- Mahakaal cannot be God because I cannot think in anything but literal terms. (Kala Afghana ki Fauj)

- Dasam Granth cannot be Guru Gobind Singh Ji's writings because it has naughty words in it that give me a funny feeling in my lower tummy that I don't understand. (Kala Afghana ki Fauj)

- Mahakaal cannot be God but I am too tired to provide evidence so you just have to take my word for it until I make my TV appearance. (Kala Afghana ki Fauj),

Hope that helps.

Regards,

K.

Turkey has lots of forces pushing pulling within. The army is the main bastion of secularism. They are loyal to the ideology of Ataturk, the Turkish reformer.

Fateh!

True, though Erdogan's Islamist AK Party is doing everything that it can to undermine the armed forces:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8159127.stm

They now blame the Muslim terrorist attacks on the secular judge and a newspaper critical of the rising Islamist policy in Turkey on some deep military conspiracy which involves everyone from mafia hitmen, army generals, intellectuals, and newspaper editors.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7684578.stm

By the time the trial comes to end, whether the generals are convicted of planning a coup or not, Erdogan's Islamist party will use the suspicion that the trial generates to further their own Islamic agenda. The army will likely soon find itself in a position where they have no power to act in ordet to ensure that Turkey remains as the nation envisaged by Ataturk.

Regards,

K.

Life is surely improved by watching own mistakes, not others.

Fateh!

So follow your own advice and quit making these ridiculous threads about how no one one but you has the Real One True Mango.

I second the motion to close this thread down. It seems to be entirely obvious that everyone on this forum but Balbir Singh understands that no one is promoting the worshipping of wooden shoes.

K.

Fateh!

Dalsingh:

Where in the introduction? Are you talking about the preface and introduction to the first volume? If so, it doesn't mention any alteration in amrit sanchar. Apart from some probably corrupted Sau Sakhi in which Guru Gobind Singh Ji allegedly tells us how great the British are there are two passage regarding the amrit ceremony and the British. The first is supposed to have been spoken by an unnamed Sikh whom Macauliffe quotes:

"AS for the bravery and warlike spirit of the Sikhs, no Cossack, no Turk, no Russian, can measure swords with them. There is one trait very peculiar in them such as must make the enemies of the British fear them. The true blood of loyalty and devotion to their master surges in their veins. A true Sikh will let his body be cut to pieces when fighting for his master. The Sikh considers dying in battle a means of salvation. No superiority in number, no shot, no shell can make his heart quail, since his Amrit (baptism) binds him to fight single-handed against millions... A Sikh who shows the least reluctance to go, or goes with an expectation of renumeration, when called upon by his benefactor the King-Emperor to fight His Majesty's enemies, no matter how strong they may be, will be condemned by the Gurus."

The second is Macauliffe's own words:

'In our times one of the principal agencies for the preservation of the Sikh religion has been the practice of military officers commanding Sikh regiments to send Sikh recruits to receive baptism according to the rites of Guru Gobind Singh, and endeavour to preserve them in their subsequent career from the contagion of idolatry. The military thus ignoring or despising the restraints imposed by the civil policy of what is called "religious neutrality", have practically become the main heirophants and guardians of the Sikh religion.'

Note that in neither of these quotes does he mention any change to amrit sanchar, though its clear that he sees baptism as a great way of inculcating in Sikh soldiers a sense of fearlessness and loyalty to the Crown. It's also clear that, despite his profound respect for the teachings of the Gurus, he cannot see Sikhs as being anything more than cannon fodder for the enemies of the British Empire.

Edit: OK, I found the footnote that Dalsingh was talking about. It actually in volume 5, p96 (yep, I'm a real fast reader). Macauliffe describes the amrit sanchar and the rehat maryada being described to the new Amritdharis. There is then a footnote attached to the end of the description of the rehat in which he says:

"In the present day an injunction is added at the time of baptism to be loyal to the British Government, which the neophytes solemnly promise."

Of course, whether this is true is another matter given that Macauliffe was not Amritdhari so could not have attended an amrit sanchar.

Regards,

K.

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

A Mango is only to be obtained from The Mangowala. And there is but One Mangowala (I will leave you to guess if my Mangowala is the same as your Mangowala).

Furthermore, listening to the Mangowala's description of the virtues of his Mangoes is not the same as eating a Mango oneself, neither is it the same as listening to someone else's description of the wonderful taste of the Mango because, as the father of general semantics, Alfred Korzybski, has told us - the map is not the territory. Also, not everone who claims to have eaten a Mango has really eaten a Mango: some are plain liars hoping to convert you to their way of thinking by using the promised Delights of the Mango as a reward for your service; others have just eaten those bitter green and red things fruits from Brazil that one finds marketed as Mangoes in Marks & Spencer's food court.

However, it can be said without a doubt, that Mangoes exist and the Mangowala's praise of his Mangoes does insipre one to receive one's own Mango and make Mango Lassi.

Mmm Mangoes,

K (channeling Balbir Singh).

Fateh!

This treatise on the spiritual experience by the 16th century Carmelite priest St John of the Cross is one of the most useful books I have read in English (translated from the Spanish) for anyone seriously pursuing any form of bhagti marg.

It describes in beautiful poetry the feelings that impel one on the path to spiritual union with the Supreme Being and then describes the sense of darkness that besets one on the path before arriving at one's destination. This unpleasant sense of emptiness or loss, this growing sense of painful separation from Him, St John of the Cross dubs la noche oscura del alma, or "Dark Night of the Soul".

Although this can be a terrible experience for the budding mystic, St John describes it as a spiritually cleansing process which shatters the identification with one's ego and strips one of all those character traits that are antithetical to spiritual progress. The Night, says St John, is the mystical equivalent of the pain suffered by a child at birth, or the struggle that the flower's bud goes through before it opens to let in the light of the Sun.

The end result of this painful process is that one's love for the Divine matures beyond purely personal and selfish concerns to enable one to accept His Hukam - one goes from a struggling mystic striving to obtain Darshan to a Soul-Bride calmly waiting for one's Lord's assured appearance in the Bridal Chamber.

You can find the translation here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.toc.html

Regards,

K.

Fateh!

Traveler's Accounts from the Internet History Sourcebooks Project:

http://www.fordham.edu/HALSALL/IHSP-travelers.html

Internet Indian History Sourcebooks:

http://www.fordham.edu/HALSALL/india/indiasbook.html

Regards,

K.

The problem with reading about others experiences is the creation of expectation, rather than natural unadulterated experience - this normally hinders the prem element of bhagti, as the process becomes a technical one, progress of which people measure against other 'sharers' milestones.

This alongside the very powerful threat of ahankaar is most likely the reason Sikhs traditionally keep experiences gupt.

For a Brahmgiani to 'teach' is totally different ball game.

Fateh!

Agreed, though sometimes milestones are useful simply to know that what one is experiencing is not uncommon and/or dangerous.

But I believe prem overrides all such concerns as Akal Purakh will show one the way if one has prem. In my personal case, I was led to St John of the Cross's description of "the dark night of the soul" when I was having difficulty understanding why all those beautiful feelings I was experiencing when starting simran had suddenly disappeared. I could have just asked the Mahapurush that my family visited, but I was too shy in those days; but likely Guru ji knew I was a bookwork when handed me a book that described the spiritual "dryness" as a normal thing that ends when the time is right.

Regards,

K.

Fateh!

I don't know that many people are willing to share such experiences, since there seems to be a general concensus among Sikhs that private spiritual experiences are to be kep secret. Does anyone know why this is the case? To protect against haumai?

When I was about ten, I did some mool mantra jaap according to the instruction in an old Sharda Pooran that belonged to my dad. If I recall correctly, it was to do 10000 jaap in 10 days in order to obtain jivan mukhti. I did this not because I was particularly chardikala, but because I was very lazy - after I completed the jaap, I figured I wouldn't have to wake up at amritvela before school. The 'rents did not agree.

I feel I would have benefited in the past by the input of a more knowledgeable and chardikala Gursikh interpreting some experiences that would only really make sense to someone who had already experienced them, however, these days I think that openly asking for advice on a forum about such things is just likely to confuse people undergoing very personal experiences.

K.

You keep making excuses for them. Truth is that they want global control. They will use all manner of excuses to do this, conjuring threats, suddenly becoming concerned and involved about human rights abuses in regions of interest and largely blind to other areas. Using mass media to demonise whole communities and playing white people's own failings. Promoting promiscuous behaviour, apathy to your own indigenous culture, bullsh1te football and superficial lifestyles as desirable. Materialism. Atheism. Going into areas and interfering in a way that causes havoc centuries after they have left.

You are an apologist for them essentially. I prepare Islamic nutjobs, they don't like us and they don't hide it (apart from to some dumb gullible girls).

Fateh!

I'm not making excuses for them, I'm comparing Muslim desire for violent domination and whitey's desire for cultural domination, and declaring one much more dangerous than the other given that whitey is so self-conscious that it actually harbours Muslims who openly declare their desire to destroy them, so that they are not accused of being racist.

How many whiteys have you met who want to kill you if you don't sleep around or watch football or aren't an atheist? Are you honestly suggesting that the US, UK and European armed forces risk their lives because they want Afghans to support Man U or because they want Iraqis to drink starbucks instead of nargilay?

Do you feel that it is that hard to maintain Sikh culture and value in the UK or European countries? Are you that weak in your faith that you consider the prevailing social mores of your host country a threat to you and to your ability to practice whatever religion or traditions you prefer? If so, you are not going to last a week in an Islamic country or under an Islamic regime in a European country.

Regards,

K.

That is really naive Singh. Given an opportunity WASPS would repaint the whole world in their image. It is deeply ingrained in them. Just because they are not as openly hostile as Muslim fundos, don't get fooled.

Whitey's ruling elite is interested in money, they have no ideology that they believe in to such a degree that they are willing to spread it at the cost of financial loss or public condemnation. Europeans are sensitive to public criticism to the point of self-destruction, as can be seen by how quick they are to kowtow to the demands of the screeching Muslim nutjobs. Compared to Islamic fanatics, whitey is easy enough to understand and counter.

On the subject of Afghanistan, the US/UK are not going to be there very long since they have realised that Afghan Muslims are there own worst enemy - give them democracy and they choose uneducated greasy-bearded Mullah as leaders. There will never be stable pipelines through Afghanistan as they will just be perpetually bombed by Muslim fanatics, they will just channel the oil elsewhere as it is cheaper and easier to do.

Regards,

K.

Afghanistan is very significant as it stands in the way of a pipeline carrying huge oil reserves from around the caspian sea.

The british empire still exists under a different name(s)

This talk of islamic terrorists using civilian housing to launch terrorist attacks, is the food being served up to 'goray' arselickers to pacify their conscience at how many innocent people have been killed in iraq and palestine. It is amazing how well western propoganda infiltrates the minds of people. I would recommend a 'kavach' such as Noam Chomsky's book manufacturing consent if a person in the west is serious about not being infiltrated by maelevolent western propoganda which as is obvious with Kaljug Singh has infiltrated him and is amplifying his hate towards muslims. Like I said without a strong intellectual 'kavach' these parasitic ideas can infiltrate a person and begin to 'rage' inside them

I have posted this link before but medialens do such an excellent job I must post it again and encourage all to read it.

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/

Lucifer's beard, not this crap again.

It may make you feel better to imagine that I have been infiltrated by invisible forces because you refuse to believe that Muslims could not possible be perpetrators of evil acts, but perhaps you shoudld refrain from using Noam Chomsky Ji Ki Kavach to protect you from painful truths.

You can read Amnesty reports about Hamas's actions, but you would probably consider that lies as well because it is written by infidels. You can even read the Hamas charter about what they think about Jews and to what extent they are prepared to go to bring about the holocaust of the Jews, but you probably need some kind of kavach to protect you from obvious facts.

The Islamic empire still exists in the mind of some Muslims. They are the ones who raise the false-spectre of Zionist Crusaders intent on destroying Muslim lands. It seems like a Muslim trait to commit atrocities and blame them on the infidels. It is amazing how well Islamic propaganda infiltrates the minds of western liberals and Muslims.

I have posted this link before but Jihad Watch do such an excellent job I must post it again and encourage all to read it.

http://www.jihadwatch.org

Regards,

K.

If it was as simple as killing the Taleban scum, it would be a different issue. However there are significant civilian casualties and refugee displacement because of the presence of foreign troops fighting the Taleban the wrong way. It's feeding resentment and playing directly into the hands of the Taleban.

Why I consider the UK an enemy? On the basis of the colonial history of the British Empire only. I am deeply suspicious of the UK and consider its intentions fundamentally malevolent.

I know Bahadur but no I'm not that person you have in mind.

Fateh!

They are civilian casualties in every war, and the Taleban are cunning enough to maximise this collateral damage by storing weapons in civilian houses and using them as launch pads for their attacks. Hamas did the same thing in Gaza. It's a pretty common tactic among jihadi scum. The Muslim countries not involved directly in the war are also cunning enough to use this to their advantage, though it does not seem to prevent them from using the same measures.

You're free to believe in whatever rubbish you want, but the British Empire no longer exists. If you think that the British are hoping to colonise Afghanistan ... well, in purely pragmatic terms, there is nothing there to colonise. Currently the only people hoping to conquer the world for their cause are imperialists of the Islamofascist variety.

Regards,

K.

Let me be perfectly frank with you here: I find your suggestion of going and killing Afghans (or trying to) just for the sake of acquiring some skill and experience in combat repellent. You don't see a problem with it because you're too full of ego. I believe your attitude here on SA reflects a psychological conflict raging within yourself. My interest in the UK armed forces is from the standpoint of 'Know Thy Enemy' not 'Join Thy Enemy', and I've never applied nor been rejected by any armed forces.

Killing Taleban scum is a war crime? Would that perhaps be because it's a crime for an infidel to kill a Muslim?

Why do you consider the UK an enemy? Aren't you the same English public school boy educated by the country you now consider an enemy and who left Sikhi after being fed on a diet of Francisco/Bahadur's excrement and neo-Persian nonsense?

K.