Kaljug
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Given that most of the responses from Niddar's chelay are things like "lol", "ner ner!", and "you should go and learn about Sikhi from the V & A Museum", I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for any kind of firm rebuttal.
It's pretty clear also from Niddar's chelay on the SikhSangat website that their knowledge of Sikhi is confused at best. One claimed that if you add together Brahma, Mahesh and Vishnu in some kind of metaphysical sum you get Akal Putakh himself (the same person believes that Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawale didn't know much about Sikhi). Another claimed that he is following Dharam only if he follows the traditions of his caste and his parents' will when it comes to marrying someone of the same caste.
Presumably then, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was acting against Dharam when he refused to follow His family traditions of entering the Hindu fold and wearing a janeu, and it would be against Dharam to become a Gursikh if one's parents don't want you to follow Sikhi at all? It sounds like Niddar's so-called Sanatan Dharam is merely followng the status quo wrapped up in pretty Indian clothes.
Anyway, I've already shown that Niddar's website contains errors and outright lies, and that it has a clear agenda to portray the Khalsa Fauj as merely another Saivite ascetic sect of warriors. It's also clear that he misquotes bani when it suits his agenda. The evidence is on his website for all to see, all I've done is provide the context for the panktis he quotes and the correct translations without Niddar's own colourful nonsense in parantheses.
By the by, I'm not against Singhs learning Niddar's art from him if that is what they want to do. (Given the cult-like mentality of Niddar's followers on SikhSangat.com, it's not something I will do.) Just don't expect me or anyone with a working brain to buy the bullshit on the website simply because Niddar says it's true.
K.
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For any non-UK sangat who want to be kept up to date, there are regular postings about the issue on sikhsangat.com.
Also the Sikh Riot Awareness facebook wall is updated every few minutes:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sikh-Riot-Awareness-UK/148955078520105
K.
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Setup a kiddie account on facebook and get one of them to message you on the blackberry and add you in?
Too old for facebook, think I'll just go out with a huge bucket of kfc and kidnap the first wouldbe mugger I come across.
It seems the only legit place that has the BBM network is the Guardian but they arent publishing what they know yet. The Police might know but you would need to know someone on the inside.
By the by, to any Singhs who are thinking that the police will help - they won't do anything. In fact, I would not be surprised if some naive Singh innocently approaches the police and gets a beatdown as a result. They have been watching idly the last few days, crapping themselves at the sight of large groups of youths. Some of them are going to get frustrated and take it out on innocent and harmless looking people because they know they can probably get away with it.
K.
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Best tumblr/tweets I've found on the riots if you want to keep up to date:
http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/
http://londonriots2011.tumblr.com/
Anyone know of any more? I'd really like access to the networks that these "yoof" are using. Seems like it would be a useful tool. Maybe I should kidnap the next wannabe gangsta I see with his mum's teatowel covering his face, lol.
K.
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I'd also add that this has nothing to do with race, as some people and the Russian media are saying, but more of the 'poor -v- authority' thing.
To be honest, I think the poor vs. authority is just an excuse. There are plenty of poor people who are not breaking into their local mcdonalds and footlocker. I feel it has more to do with the worship of materialism and pure greed in some "urban" cultures.
There definitely seems to be an element of race in the Birmingham riots with majority black youths targeting mostly Asian-owned businesses in the Handsworth area. In fact, it reminds me of the earlier Handsworth riots where exactly the same thing happened.
K.
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Ashwagandha is useful when recovering from illness (it's an adaptogen, the desi version of ginseng).
ALCAR (acetyl l-carnitine) will reduce fatigue and provide a bit of a CNS boost too.
And make sure you are taking the usual things like vitamin c, vitamin d3 and zinc.
K.
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Read and contemplate the quoted part of the surah, it couldn't be more clear. The word has only been highlighted so you could see where the concept of fanaa arises from in the Quran. If you do a little research, you will find that there are Sufi texts which date back before the influence of India. Surely Rumi Sahib is also one such example. I don't expect you to accept this, it's more for the benefit of the spectators.
I pray Parmatma is keeping you in good health :-)
I've read it, thanks, and it is very clear that it has nothing to do with Sufi belief in al-fanaa. All it says is that Allah creates stuff and then destroys stuff.
Anyway, I give up arguing with you about this. You already made it clear in the avataars thread that amardeep quotes in this thread that you have difficulty believing in the unique status of our Gurus and the avataars, and wish to elevate mohammed and other prophets to the same level, out of some peculiar notion of political correctness applied to the spiritual sphere. As such, I am sure that you will continue to ignore any evidence which points to the utterly obvious fact that there is nothing in the semitic scriptures (or in our own) to support your beliefs.
I'm just spiffing thanks. I hope all is well with you and yours. :-)
K.
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"Sufi ideas like fanaa only entered islam much later through muslim scholars coming into contact with Indic philosophy - there is certainly no such thing in the quran."
Ar Rahmân
Surah 55. The Beneficent, The Mercy Giving
55:26 All that is on earth will perish:
Kullu man AAalayha fanin
55:27 But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.
Wayabqa wajhu rabbika thooaljalali waal-ikrami
Are you serious? Your counterargument is that the word fanin is used in the quran? In a context which has nothing at all to do with the subject under discussion?
K.
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Amardeep wrote:
your methodology makes no sense.. IF you wish to prove that Sikhism does'nt believe all paths can lead to God if followed properly then quote Gurbani instead of picking random lines from various scriptures.
Then you said:
When I say it is possible to for people of other religions to achieve mukhti im not talking about hindus who do pooja of murtis all day and bathe in the ganges all night long, nor muslims who are obsessed with sharia. Im talking about the one's who follow a Guru/pir (ie nirgunvadis and sufis) who care more for union with God than paradise.. Who spend more time working on controling their vices than merely to just stop reacting on their vices etc.in case of christiand then its the gnostics..
Im talking about a specific minority in the two traditions, im not talking about the majority.. Why would I even argue its possible for mainstream muslim and hindus to achieve union with God when their purpose and target is paradise/baikunth??
ਮਾਰਫਤੀ ਮਾਰੂਫ ਲਖ ਹਕ ਹਕੀਕਤ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਮਾਣੇ।
Myriad people have become famous by reaching the last stage of knowledge, the marfati and many in His divine Will have merged into the haqiqat, the truth.
All you are really saying is that mukti is available to those who follow a religion like Sikhi, given that there is nothing like the idea of union with parabrahman in the Semitic religions and there is little emphasis on nirgun brahman in common hinduism. You certainly do not make any kind of case for Sikhi teaching that all religions lead to God.
Sufi ideas like fanaa only entered islam much later through muslim scholars coming into contact with Indic philosophy - there is certainly no such thing in the quran. Even the definition of haqiqat varies for different Sufi sects (some do not even have haiqat as the final stage), so you cannot even say all Sufi sects lead one to God.
K.
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has anyone read his manifesto?
It's a lengthy and accurate description of Islam's violent history up to the present day mixed in with some fantasy Templar crap and the author's own megalomania.
His discussion of the violent totalitarian ideals of Islam is accurate as his belief that a large influx of Muslims into a country eventually leads to attacks on the host country when Muslim numbers reach a large enough number.
He was also a crazy murderous psychopath.
What's funny is that as soon as the attacks happened, an Islamic organisation claimed responsibility for the attacks and there was widespread rejoicing on the internet by Muslims who believed one of their "brothers" had killed some Norwegian children as revenge for Norway's troops in Afghanistan. And then, when the truth came out about it being a homegrown terrorist, Muslims started whining that the press was "islamophobic" for daring to think that Muslims could be responsible for such an atrocity.
K.
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Sarbloh Kavach:
http://www.manglacharan.com/2009/11/sarbloh-kavachan-translation.html
Braham Kavach and Ram Kavach:
http://www.manglacharan.com/2009/11/braham-kavich-translation.html
what is a kavach for,
is it rakhya
Yep. Kavach is 'armour'.
K.
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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
Really intersting journal (mostly from a US perspective) on counter insurgency:
http://coincentral.wordpress.com/
Regards,
K.
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The issue is more so for pubic hair alot of people shave pubic hair more so gentail region as this is exposed to urine and so forth to bodily fluids some even say sciencetific research proves cutting pubic hair is hygeince as muslims do every 40 days.
Scientific research proves that taking ishnaan every day is more hygienic than trimming your short and curlies every 40 days instead.
K.
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I have had many debates, one being about the yantras and i got called an agent of RSS.... We need to study our religion. sikhi has now become a 'culture' as opposed to sikhi. To be honest,
What did you say about yantars? What relation do you think yantars have with Sikhi (honest question, not criticism)?
K.
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Thanks for sharing. Interesting to see Baba ji refer to Torah lore.
Lots of Talmudic lore entered Islam through a convert Wahb bin Munabbih in the 7th century, including the 18,000 worlds. It's more likely that this was a belief anmong some Muslims at the time of our Gurus
rather than being a direct reference to the Talmud.
K.
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Kateban is plural and refers to the Semitic scriptures. The idea of 18,000 worlds is from the Talmud. From torah.org:
http://www.torah.org/features/secondlook/extraterrestrial.html#
More on the 18,000 worlds in Judaism:
http://www.jewishmag.com/8mag/worlds/worlds1.htm
The idea of the quran being corrupted from an earler, gentler version is bullshit, as is the idea that the hadith do not provide reliable historical descriptions of Mohammed (because Mohammed couldn't possibly be the lunatic that is described in them). Articulating either of these ideas would probably get you killed in most Muslim countries for blasphemy, but we seem to go to extraordinary lengths to pretend Islam is somehow something else than what it is.
K.
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Very useful information Kalyug veer. Thanks for that. Do you happen to have any information on Akdam Chakar??
Akdam chakra seems to be a Gurmukhi version of the Sanskrit Akathaha Chakra from Mantra Shastra which is used to determine how suitable a mantra is for someone to recite.
In Mantra Shastra you have four main divisions of the types of mantras - Siddha (accomplished), Susiddha (fully accomplished), Sadya (fit for accomplishment), Ari (enemy). These can be further subdivided into a total of 16 divisions by taking combinations of these 4 qualities so you have Siddha-Siddha, Siddha-Sussidha, Siddha-Sadya, Siddha-Ari and so one with the rest. Each combination is supposed to have different affects, eg if you recite a Sadhya-Ari mantra, you may succeed with it, but your family will die.
You find out which combination a mantra will be for you by taking the first letter of the name of the person, and starting with that letter in the Akathaha Chakra count clockwise to the first letter of the mantra the person wants to recite. Tha Akathaha chakra is formed by drawing a square and dividing into sixteen equal squares. The first letter of the alphabet in the first square, second in the second, third in the third and the fourth in the fourth square has to written respectively, and so on until all the letters are used up.
You can see a picture of the Akathaha chakra here:
http://www.manblunder.com/2009/02/blog-post.html
The counting of the squares should be clockwise starting with the square in which the first letter of the name of the student appears. If both come in the first square of the first row, then the mantra is known as Siddha (accomplished). When it is in the squares of the second row then the mantra is known as Sadhya (fit for accomplishment) in the squares of the third row it is Susiddha (fully accomplished), and if it be in the squares of the fourth row, it is Ari (enemy). If the first letters of both come in the first, second, third and the fourth squares of the first row, then the mantra is known as Siddha-Siddha, Siddha-Sadhya, Siddha-Susiddha and Siddhari respectively. Then if they come in the four squares of the second row, it is Sadhya-Siddha, Sadhya-Sadhya, Sadhya-Susiddha and SadhySri respectively. If they come in the four squares of the third row, it is Susiddha-Siddha, Susiddha-Sadhya, Susiddha-Susiddha and Susiddhari, respectively, and if they be in those of the fourth row, it is Ari-Siddha, Ari-Sadhya, Ari Susiddha and Ari-Ari respectively.
The Amir Bhandar Steeka it seems to suggest a similar methodology. The Akdam Chakra is made by drawing a circle with 12 segments and writing the letters of the Gurmukhi alphabet clockwise. It starts with the first vowel sound then goes clockwise in the outermost circle, then you carry on with the rest of the alphabet in a clockwise fashion. The word Akdam comes from the letters in the first segment A K D M. There's a mistake in the printing though. Where the second ਕ in the 5th segment is, it should actually be a ਙ.
In the Amir Bhandar Steeka's methodology, the 1st (AKDM segment), 5th and 9th segments are designated siddha; 2nd, 6th and 10th sadhya; 3rd, 7th, 11th susiddha; 4th, 8th, 12th ari. At least this is what think it means on cursory reading. I'm hoping someone will be able to clarify the details though.
On a personal note, I don't see how any of this stuff applies with Gurbani since Gurbani is Dhur ki bani. In Hindumat, if a mantra is not suitable for a sadhak, his guru can still make the mantra suitable by adding various bija mantras. Who can alter dhur ki bani to make it better than it is?
K.
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I've the access to Teeka but could not understand those pages (85, 86).....or you could say that I need more information.
The information is all on that page, but it's not particularly clear what all the yantras are used for and how.
These kinds of yantras are written for various material effects, eg the first pandriya one is written and kept in a shop to bring business success (presumably because the square is associated with Ganesha), the second one is another form of the same 3x3 magic square. The next one is formed by assigning numbers to each syllable of Ekoankar Satinam Waheguru as follows
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Ekoankar Sa Ti Na Mu Wa Hi Gu Ru
then replacing the numbers in the pandriya yantra with the assocated syllable. The last one is written and the associated shabad is recited over it to cure a sick person. They are called pandriya yantras because they are based on the 3x3 magic square in which each column and row adds up to 15.
The Chontiya yantra (or chautisa yantra as it's usually called) is the 4x4 magical square and the one on that page actually contains an embedded pandriya yantra. It's called chontiya yantra because each row and column adds up to 34.
You can find some more information on magic squares here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_square
They are different to the yantras that Maha Singh is talking about which are supposed to geometrically depict some aspect of the supreme being or a devata.
Gurbani teaches against worshipping yantras as Hindus do because it is impossible to encapsulate, contain or describe Akal Purakh who is Nirguna Brahman with such geometrical pictures and numerical games.
K.
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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh,
I was reading one of the Teeka that Kam veer has uploaded on gurmatveechar.com. I came across some things for which I would like to read more if someone has something to tell.
From where I can get Panderea (15th Yantar), Chauntiva (34th) Yantar, and Akdam Chakar (Shabad Sidhi). Is there more information on these and any related details?
Thanks
The Yantars you are talking about are on page 87 of the pdf (85 of the granth). They are variations of "magical" squares.
Akdam chakra is page 88 of the pdf (86 of the granth), though I have no idea what it is supposed to do.
K.
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The entire forum (including google cache) and its members (except Zulu) will disappear into the Ultimate when they simultaneously obtain Nirvikalpa Samadhi at Amritvela on 21 December 2012.
K.
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So, where's the evidence? Or is prurient speculation enough proof for some Sikhs to think the worst of their brothers?
K.
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Singh2 ji
The facts are very simple and clear.
All the Bani as mentioned in the Rehat Maryada from Akal Takht Sahib is by our Gurus.
But if someone tries to pass on all that is written in 'Sri Guru Dasam Granth' as by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji, its just not acceptable. Thats all.
If someone wants to read any Granth other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji no one else can have any problem. We are all free to do as per our desires.
But to present some Granth other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as our Guru, certainly it can not be acceptable.
The personality and intellect of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji is not comparable to any living being or any other personality in the history of this world. What is did no one else could dare to do. For Gods sake do not belittle the personality of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji by putting on all that written in the Dasam Granth as that by our Great Guru.
There is no end to discussing these things. If we use cool head and unbiased mind everything is crystal clear.
Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji Ordered Sikhs to follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as perpetual Guru for all time to come. Why should we have any confusion.
For all your talk of accepting the commands of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, it is clear that you moorakhs do no such thing. Instead, you worship the opinion of bewakoofs and apostates like Darshan Lal and Kala Afghana who ignore centuries of Sikh history that recognises the whole of Sri Dasam Granth as indisputibaly the work of Guru Gobind Singh.
And please, quit the "we only follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib because Guru Gobind Singh Ji said so" spiel when you clearly have no respect for the bani written by Dasmesh Pita.
K.
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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
This looks like it will be an interesting book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/019975506X/ref=pe_3421_23452111_snp_dp
Not available to buy yet. The product description on Amazon reads:
The Dasam Granth is a 1,428-page anthology of diverse compositions attributed to the tenth Guru of Sikhism, Guru Gobind Singh, and a topic of great controversy among Sikhs. The controversy stems from two major issues: a substantial portion of the Dasam Granth relates tales from Hindu mythology, suggesting a disconnect from normative Sikh theology; and a long composition entitled Charitropakhian tells several hundred rather graphic stories about illicit liaisons between men and women. Sikhs have debated whether the text deserves status as a "scripture" or should be read instead as "literature." Sikh scholars have also long debated whether Guru Gobind Singh in fact authored the entire Dasam Granth. Much of the secondary literature on the Dasam Granth focuses on this authorship issue, and despite an ever-growing body of articles, essays, and books (mainly in Punjabi), the debate has not moved forward. The available manuscript and other historical evidence do not provide conclusive answers regarding authorship. The debate has been so acrimonious at times that in 2000, Sikh leader Joginder Singh Vedanti issued a directive that Sikh scholars not comment on the Dasam Granth publicly at all pending a committee inquiry into the matter. Debating the Dasam Granth is the first English language, book-length critical study of this controversial Sikh text in many years. Based on research on the original text in the Brajbhasha and Punjabi languages, a critical reading of the secondary literature in Punjabi, Hindi, and English, and interviews with scholars and Sikh leaders in India, it offers a thorough introduction to the Dasam Granth, its history, debates about its authenticity, and an in-depth analysis of its most important compositions.
Anyone know the author? I can't find any other publications by the guy.
Regards,
K.
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The quran makes no mention of stoning, but:
5:33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter
I'm pretty sure that if Jesus had a problem with stoning, he'd have a bigger one with crucifixion.
The reason that Sufism is so close to Sikhi is because of the influence of Indian and other religions which affected its development, not because the original Islam was anything like Sikhi.
What you are doing is making up a revisionist history of Islam to make it more palatable - for yourself or for the sangat, I don't know which yet.
K.
Shastar Vidiya Website Gets A Sticky On Sikhsangat
in Yudh Vidya Section
Posted
I just looked through their rebuttal. I'm loving the personal insults - it sounds like someone's got their kachera in a twist. :-D Firstly, I notice that Niddar ill now be writing a book to prove his lineage claims. I'm sure that will be a great read unless his evidence is more unsubtantiated drivel from "oral transripts" that cannot be verified.
Given the obvious errors in his rendering of the bani in the history section, it would have been more honourable for Niddar to admit his mistakes and change the offending pages.
I will look at it a bit more carefully and respond after the bank holiday weekend.
K.
K.