Kaljug

Astrology is a different matter.

The Qur'an does not exist in isolation but belongs to a religious tradition that goes back to the Prophet Abraham. Also, it's a mistake to interpret the Qur'an from a narrow exoteric perspective, as its interpretation is a science in itself. Islam does not encompass only the Qur'an but the teachings of the Ahl al-Bayt as well.

I was using astrology as analogous example. Let me make it clear for you: Alchemy is not an Islamic creation, neither is it a creation of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Therefore it is not an "Islamic Science". Now before you claim that, on an esoteric level, Islam goes back to the myth of Adam's creation and therefore everything thaty exists is an Islamic Science, I am not concerned with what you believe to be estorically true - I am talking about historical fact not mythologised history.

Regarding interpretation of the Quran being a science - nope. Exegesis, literary analysis, linguistics and etymology are no sciences. Furthermore the same tools are used to interpret other religious texts. Exegesis of I Ching is not a CHinese science, exegesis of the Torah and Talmud is not a Jewish science, and so on and so on.

If you actually have an interest in alchemy, I'd recommend Adam McLean's site as a good starting point. He also runs courses in practical alchemy, if that is your cup of Earl Grey.

Regards,

K.

Fateh!

1. Every Sikh accepts Guru Granth Sahib as Guru, including the Nihangs whose beliefs you try to demean without having the nads to name them.

2. Telling us that SPN stands behind Sri Guru Granth Sahib in a debate about Dasam Granth is unneccessary and smacks of the typical Kala Afghana tactic of screaming "BLASPHEMY! THEY SAID THAT GURU GRANTH SAHIB IS NOT GURU!!! DID YOU HEAR WHAT THAT DASAM GRANTH GUY JUST SAID!?!?!!1111".

3. There is no such thing as a unanimous concensus - it's an oxymoron. To allow these anti-Dasam Granth scum a platform for their propaganda because you hope to convince them of the authenticity of Dasam Granth is both fatuous and dishonest.

4. Dasam Granth has been accepted by the Panth long before Kala Afghana, Inder Ghagga, Ragi Darshan Singh and the rest of those undereducated Sikh Missionary acolytes looking to make a name for themselves by courting controversy were conceived and dropped on their heads by their mothers.

5. Sikhi is a religion, and as such many things will always be beyond reason, logic and the vain attempts by correspondence course PhDs to unravel its mysteries. A Sikh without sharda and satkaar for bani of all ten living Gurus is a shishya of his own ego not of Guru Nanak.

6. Akal Takhat has already issued an edict banning discussion of Dasam Granth's authenticity. Do you consider that 5 Sikhs have come together to write this edict as a concensus on behalf of the Sikh Panth. If not, what kind of concensus are you looking for?

K.

Lucifer's beard! Is this thread still running?

The acceptance of Dasam Granth as bani is a fundamental pillar of Sikhi. You cannot be a Sikh and say that you are sitting on the fence scratching under your joora until you decide that you believe in it, no more than you can be a Sikh and say, Well, you know, I believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib but not those parts that I don't like. Study of Dasam Granth should be undertaken to understand why this Granth was written and what purpose it serves, not to pick and choose the bits that go well with your own personal philosophy and declare these and only these shabads to be dhur ki bani.

Someone wake me up when it's all over.

K.

Alchemy derived from al-kimia is an Islamic science that is a result of an attempt to follow the stipulation of the Qur'an to seek knowledge, applied systematically to the tradition of Hermes-Harran-Prometheus-Thoth that early Islam came into contact with. The Europeans such as Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa copied it almost exactly from the works written by Islamic alchemists.

And the Mohammedans copied everything they learned about Alchemy from the Egyptians, the Persians and the Greeks. Alchemy has nothing to do with the Koran.

Similarly, Agrippa may have consulted the Picatrix for the chapter on the Lunar Mansions in his 3 Books of Occult Philosophy, but that form of astrology was in existent long before Mohammed was born.

K.

Fateh!

There is no such thing as Islamic Science no more than there is Christian Science or Buddhist Science or Atheist Science.

The origins of alchemy are far older than Mohammed's religion. To say Alchemy is some Islamic Science or an Islamic creation is bullshit. Alchemy, both practical and spiritual, was practiced in cultures and religions far, far before some openminded Persians and Arabs decided to experiment with the part of the art they learned from the pre-Islamic Egyptians and the Greeks.

The guys in the video are just newage amateurs who have mixed up a little laya yoga, layman physics, the platonic solids, and mumbo jumbo. You can follow their instructions and nothing will follow except self-delusion, tree-hugging and the use of patchouli oil as a cologne.

The body of light is just another name for the astral body. In its natural state it is dark, lunar and amorphous; with spiritual practice it is made luminous, definite and solar. Initially one who attempts to take control of this body and travel in it remembers fragments of the journey as if it were a dream - there is no continuity of consciousness, the journey is fragmented, distorted and incompletely recalled. Furthermore one is prone to end up in whatever astral world that one's natural inclinations and karmas dictate. With increased experience and heightened spiritual awareness, the transition from the sleep of the physical body and the awakening of the body of light is seamless, and consciousness exists as luminous awareness. It becomes possible at this stage to visit the countless heavens of the different religions and to move from one physical bpdy to another at the point of death.

Sikhi teaches that to pursue these abilities is to further entangle oneself in maya, but to say the astral body is anti-Gurmat is sort of like saying the pineal gland and DMT is anti-Gurmat. These powers develop naturally during bhagti and naam abhyaas.

The best site on Alchemy is still Adam Maclean's site:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/

Enjoy,

K.

Neo Singh:

Can you define sargun and nirgun for everyone here in simple terms so that we are all talking about the same thing? There is a chance that someone watching the video may still not grasp the concepts involves or simply misunderstand them.

Sikh Answers (Bijla Singh?):

What is the difference between kirat naam and karam naam? Can you provide examples of both from Gurbani for everyone here so that the distinction is clear?

Regards,

K.

tSingh:

Both Ramayana and Vishnu Purana describe Ram as avatar of Visnu (this is also the case in Chaubis Avatar). If the Ram whose exploits are described in Ramayana is Nirguna Brahman, how would you reconcile this belief with the general prohibition against idol and Deva/Devi (sargun) worship in Gurbani?

Also, bani makes clear distinctions between Ram as a name of God and the mythological figure Ram:

From Guru Granth Sahib:

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him. (SGGS, ang 494)

SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: Branded with a thousand marks of disgrace, Indra cried in shame. Paras Raam returned home crying. Ajai cried and weeped, when he was made to eat the manure he had given, pretending it was charity. Such is the punishment received in the Court of the Lord. Rama weeped when he was sent into exile, and separated from Sita and Lakhshman. The ten-headed Raawan, who stole away Sita with the beat of his tambourine, wept when he lost Sri Lanka. The Paandavas once lived in the Presence of the Lord; they were made slaves, and wept. Janmayjaa wept, that he had lost his way. One mistake, and he became a sinner. The Shaykhs, Pirs and spiritual teachers weep; at the very last instant, they suffer in agony. The kings weep - their ears are cut; they go begging from house to house. The miser weeps; he has to leave behind the wealth he has gathered. The Pandit, the religious scholar, weeps when his learning is gone. The young woman weeps because she has no husband. O Nanak, the whole world is suffering. He alone is victorious, who believes in the Lord's Name. No other action is of any account. || 1 || (SGGS, ang 953-954)

From Dasam Granth (Bachittar Natak):

The Lord Akal creates millions of Krishna, annihilates them and recreates them.

Some hang stones as gods around their necks, while others erroneously call Mahesh 'God'

I have discarded all these false religions and am of the firm view that He who is the creator of the Universe, is the only Lord.

Everyone is caught in the noose of Death, no Rama or prophet can escape from it. All of them who made grand claims of being Avtars of God died repentant. Why doest not thou, O, hapless being seek the shelter of the One Lord.

Krishan Avatar:

I do not seek the blessings of Ganesh,

I do not worship Krishna or Vishnu.

I do not recognise them.

I am engrossed in the loving devotion of my Lord alone.

The Lord of Death, Akal, is my refuge and He saves me is all tribulations.

I'll try to get back to you on the sargun/nirguna forms being intertwined as you suggest.

Regards,

K.

Fateh!

Great responses so far, keep them coming. Allow me to summarise the thread so far and set some questions for sake of clarity.

Matheen ji has provided us with pangtis from both Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth (there are many others) that reject the ritual worship of idols. It's clear from them that pathar puja is condemned, and only Nirguna Brahman is to be worshipped through Naam. This is the view represented in the Sikh Rehat Maryada when it prohibits idol worship altogether for Sikhs. This perspective also implies that Hindus and others will only gain a temporary respite in the heaven of his or her Ishtadev, but that this is only temporary and is not equivalent to mukti (cf. Valli Singh's post on Anurag Sagar, Ghat Ramayana and Sarbloh Granth). Furthermore, the reason for this that the pujari is worshipping the historical and mythological Shiva, the totemic spirit of an ancient people.

On the other hand, Neo Singh represents the view that worship in Sargun form as well as Nirguna form is acceptable in Sikhi, and that it is only the sharda of the faithful that matters in the end.

Neo, can you elaborate on this? In Sikhi, isn't Shabad Guru considered Sargun Parmesar which leads to Nirguna Brahman where there is no shabad, dhooni etc? Would you say that the pangtis from Dasam Granth which say that those who consider Shiva to be the same as God fools rejects worship of Devi/Devatas altogether, or does it only mean to say that those who confuse Shiva's outward form with Nirguna Brahman are fools but that Saivites can still obtain Mukti by realising that Shiva is only the clothing worn by Akal Purakh and that Shiva's essential nature is attributeless and equivalent to Nirguna Brahman? (This would explain tSinghs comment in an earlier thread about realising the true identity of Shiv Maharaj.)

Ram, Allah, Narayana, Gopal, and many other names are mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Mystical reminds us that Gurbani says that Ram and Allah are one and the same. Following on from the questions in the last paragraph, does this mean that the Lord Rama of Hindu mythology and the Allah who authored the Quran are exactly the same in all respects, or does this simply mean that these are both Sargun forms (with different attributes) who are identical at Nirguna (without attribute) level?

Keep the responses coming. I'll PM tSingh to join the discussion. Matheen ji, I'm going to read some Dasam Bani and try to find the examples I was thinking about where Dasmesh Pita seems to use names of Devas as kiratnaam of Akal, but that interpretation is the correct one - it is in praise of Akal Purakh who is praised by calling Hir the supreme death of death itself (i.e. eternal).

Regards,

K.

oh dear.

so you are seriously comparing this mehtab singh to Guru Arjan?

if that is indeed the meaning of the salok you quoted (im not so sure it is) then tell me where Guru Arjan is belittering others to make this point?

theres a difefrence between 'oh my teacher is greatest...he did this for me/he has this quality' and 'oh my teacher is great...because theirs is weak'.

i cant even believe i have to explain this!

Sab to vadda means greatest of all - it's superlative which includes the comparative (greater than) by implication.

K.

Fateh!

I'm hoping to open a discussion to clarify Sikh thought about worship of Devis and Devatas and what Sikhi says about those devotees who worship them, as there seem to be conflicting opinions among some Sikhs (see the lord shiva and god thread) and even in traditional Sikh sampardas (in another thread tSingh mentions murtis and shivalings in Udasi ashrams though Udasis claim to worship Nirguna Brahman).

It seems pretty clear that idol worship, the belief that God can be confined to a stone and ritual worship of this stone, is against the teachings of the Gurus. The Devas are also named and identified as being creations of, and not identical with, Akal Purakh. Yet Gurbani also appropriates the names of Hindu deities like Ram, Narayana, Gopal and uses these as alternate names to describe Akal Purakh.

The first question is: can names like Mahakal and Mahakali also be considered to be names for the Supreme Reality by Sikhs? If not, and they are only to be thought of as a form of the Hindu Shiva in destructive form (in the case of Mahakal) and the fierce form of Devi (in the case of Mahakali) and thus creations of Karta Purakh, can, for example, Kalika Devi's name be invoked by a Sikh and can her image be visualised as the power of Akal Purakh in embodied form without worshipping the Devi herself (as seems to be done in Braham Kavach and Ugardanti)?

The second question is: can people who follow Hindumat and worship these Devatas as being God Hirself achieve mukti (which is what the sakhi about Bhagat Dhanna and the stone idol seems to suggest), or did pre-Sikhi Bhagats have to wait until Guru Nanak Dev Ji took physical form?

Before you answer that question, I think it's necessary first to describe how the same Devata can be considered on many different levels, and to illustrate this I'm going to use the example of Shiva since he was mentioned by name in the previous two threads.

The deity Shiva clearly has very ancient shamanic origins as is evident from the fact that he is depicted carrying the basic tools of shamanism: the drum to induce trance, the animal companion (the serpent around his neck), animal body parts (he is sometimes shown wearing or sitting on tiger or lion skin), and the psychoactive drug that brings on the shamanic experience (marijuana pouch). In fact, Nepali shamans today still consider Shiva to be the perfect shaman and still worship him as such.

In etymological terms, shiva was originally an adjective and was used as an epithet of the Vedic storm god, Rudra, who is also one of many deities, associated with natural events and forces, worshipped by the ancient people of India.

In some sense, Hindus who engage in pathar puja today are still worshipping this totemic deity, who has roots in primitive animistic religion, with rituals that are probably remnants of the rites of Shiva's ancient cult (it's a common theme in shamanic religions to worship a special or unique natural objects like stones as being the home of a paricular spirit or deity, and feeding a shivaling might be considered a form of this).

However, at some point, and for some Hindus, Shiva became the Supreme Being: he wasn't just a shaman's totem anymore, he was not just the blue-throated deity of Hinduism's mythology, and he was not just the destructive third of the Trimurti: he was creator, preserver, and destroyer all rolled into one. He was even called Ardhanarishvara, "the lord who is half-woman" to highlight the fact that he was complete and reconciled all opposites within himself, and that there was no need for another. In some sense, his legendary names like Mruthyunjaya (Victor over Death), Tripurantaka (Destroyer of the abode of demons), and Bhairava (the fierce one) became kirat names of the ultimimate reality. (As an aside, many religions follow a similar pattern - Jehovah and Allah were also simply tribal deities and one among many in their respective pantheons, and the rituals of the Jews and Muslims still contain a trace of these tribal roots.)

Now when gurbani tells us that those who believe that Shiva and God are the same are fools, or that worshippers of Devatas will not obtain mukti, is this in reference to the pathar pujaris who think that the totemic Shiva they worship through ritual puja is God? Or does it apply equally to Saivites who call the supreme being Shiva? If it applies to both, what exactly is the difference between a Sikh who calls God by the name of Waheguru and a Shaivite who calls God Shiva? And if it applies to both, does this not mean that those who consider Allah and Jehovah to be the same as God are fools also?

Regards,

K.

.

Fateh!

I wish more mainstream Sikh raagis had this level of raag vidiya and as much dedication to retaining the puraatan instruments and musical traditions of our Gurus' times as the Namdharis have. It would be great if we could our forget differences and concentrate on similarities while learning this vidiya from Naamdharis.

At 18s: the Namdhari behind the baba with the dholki has the best mucha I have ever seen. :-D

K.

Kindly state which of the above objectives the Great Genius has acheived thus far.

Cheers.

Fateh!

According to the "testing swami ji" section on his website, the Great Genius has learned to fart perfume while invisible:

Swami shows proof

Valli was telling some of her relatives about Swami. However they would not believe in Him. They told her that they would not believe her unless they had a first hand evidence of His divine powers. As they said these words, they got a sweet fragrance of lotus flowers. They immediately became devotees of Swami.

Anil Anthony, I am now completely convinced that Swami Ji is the Supreme Being! Please tell him to teach me how I also can learn to do this, so that people no longer run from the room when I break wind after eating too many moolia de parathas. Do I have to meditate on swami ji's muladhara chakra?

Regards,

K.

Randip Singh:

Post up your studies, I would like to see them.

Like I said, what works for you may not work for everyone, and eating a little animal flesh now and again won't make a vast difference to one's strength. The people here who do not eat meat can still make great gains, it just requires more effort and research than normal. At the end of the day, a vegetarian with a good diet and who trains like a demon is going to do far better than an omnivore who doesn't have the same intensity and discipline.

Post up your 1 rep max for bench, squat and deads for when you were 21 (your weight as well). Post up your diet and training regimen as well from that time so we youngins can learn (I'm being serious here). Were you training for bodybuilding or powerlifting? Did you compete? Were you a clean natural or a mean roidmonkey? It would be cool to have an experienced ironhead sharing training tips on this forum.

Come on man check your ego in at the door. I am not playing.

Bah. My ego is too large to get through the door anyway.

Trust me, come your 40's you would be pretty stupid lifting weights that heavy.

After I've spawned and my little monsters are grown up, I'm planning to buy shares in testosterone and human growth hormone. I'm also considering taking up one of the internal martial arts in the next 5 years which rely less on physical strength and more on skill (probably Xing Yi Quan as it is nice and aggressive).

Saying that, you are pretty strong, and whatever you are doing, you are doing correctly. Just watch the back and knees. Mine play up to buggery, and I had at 35 a dibitating case of sciatica that started when i was gardening.

That must have been some heavyduty gardening! ;-) Yeah, my knees already seem like they are 20 years older than the rest of my body, and my back takes a hell of a pounding these days from wrestling strong fat b******* but thankfully it is still good. I may have to get one of my Nihang buddies to teach me how to make sukhnidaan for those post-training aches though.

Regards,

K.

Sarbatdapala:

1st question is, is it right to Judge people?, If we see God in everyone and do not seek impartiality out of people, how can we tell if its bad sangat and we should stay away, is it then right to say these people are RSS and we should stay away or these people are this or that, should we not have love for them, allow them to communicate with us, have langar etc, for instance if someone is a pervert, is it right now we stay away from them, and how should we even acknowledge they are, can we trust Gossip, if we see them being a pervert, should we have limits there, and are we allowed to judge them, if we can not judge how do we get along in life.

Bani is pretty clear on what kind of Sangat we should have. If the company you keep is dragging you away from God, then they are not doing you any favours, and it is best to abandon them (unless you are confident that your sharda and bandgi are so great that it will inspire your friends to leave behind their old ways).

It's not about being judgemental, it's just common sense: if you are around drunks and junkies all day, you are probably going to end up one yourself; if you want to do well in your studies, befriend smart people not the party people; if you want to up your martial game, you need to spend time sparring with people more skilled than you.

God is also in the hungry lion who thinks you smell like roast chicken, but you would be pretty silly if you didn't run away. Ya dig?

2nd Question in dharam yudh and any yudh people talk about fighting in Bir Ras, what is Bir Ras and whats the difference between that and Krodh, if we talk about fighting the panj choor kaam, krodh, lobh, moh and hankar, we can never kill them and slay them, do we control them or is a state of mukhti complete control, in the same case is it possible to have kids without kaam, would this be a state of reference for chitra Sri Dasam Granth Bani in reference to that.

Bir ras is the spirit of heroism and self-sacrifice in the defence of dharam. Bir ras allowed Jungee Khalsa to fight for days without adequate food and water against numerically superior forces, it was bir ras that allowed Baba Deep Singh to conquer death and continue to fight with his head in his hand until Harimandir Sahib was secure, and it's bir ras that allows Nihangs living in the Dals today to give up all personal ambition and to endure the hardship of that lifestyle while still remaining in Chardi Kala (read up on some of the bolis that Nihangs use if you want to know what it means to be in "high spirits").

Every fool can experience krodh, the anger that burns bright and makes us feel powerful then fizzles out to leave us drained and probably in prison. Krodh is they way one's ego manifests its outrage when its superiority has been questioned.

The Panj Chor are only chor because they don't work for you yet. They exist for a reason:

Without lust, there would be no children, and we would not be motivated enough to learn to love another human more than our own lives. Until we have experienced that kind of love, most of us are incapable of learning to love Guru and God more than our own lives.

Without greed, we would have no desire to obtain anything, and if there is no desire to obtain, how will you learn to desire to have the only thing worth having, and the only treasure that you can take with you when you die?

Without anger, and the motivation it gives to dominate, the human race would not have survived. It is because of this urge that we are not at the bottom of the food chain and we have the time and the luxury to do bhagti without worrying about being eaten by wild beasts. If you have never experienced righteous anger at injustice, how will you channel this anger into bir ras?

Without attachment, how will you ever learn to attach yourself to the feet of the Guru and leave behind all other attachments?

Without egotism, how will you realise your insignificance? If you have no ego and self-centredness, how will you give your head and achieve Guru-centredness?

Mukti doesn't mean that you are going to stop experiencing emotions, it just means that the Panj Chor have no power over you: before, these emotions completely overpower your rational mind to the extent that you become the feeling; after, these emotions still appear, but they are like insignificant drifting clouds in an infinitely large luminous blue sky.

3rd Question Is nindya, chugli allowed if its right, some people have the view that with crude talking Nihangs would for instance call those Sikhs who cut there beards a cat, which in some sense can be true is it right, does that not set us back to not seeing prabhs jyot in everyone and doing everyones seva like Bhai Kaniya ji regardless of dharam/deen/masaab. If someone chooses not to folllow khalsa marayda and follows a dharma of there own manmat, should we still not respect them as individuals and do there seva. Also Sikhs have had an age old oral tradation, how can we differentiate if its fact or opinon, or just gossip, like the tellings of shaheedi of Singhs people have painted a picture Muslims were evil and did this, however other historians record political struggles aswell fear of trison.

Veer, when Nihang Singhs use their unique expressions, they are usually doing it out of pyaar. If you are a "trim Singh" and a Nihang calls you a billee, he is reminding you that, in your natural state, you are a lion, but by your own choice you have become a cat.

If someone is not religious or is not following Sikh maryada in its entirety, of course you should respect their right to walk their own path. Some Sikhs become Singhs seemingly in the blink of an eye; other Sikhs grow and mature into Singhs in their own time.

Now, just because you respect a person's right to believe in something, does not mean that you have to respect their beliefs, especially if they are stupid or dangerous. I have a Christian friend who believes the world is 6000 years old. I respect his right to choose literal biblical belief over fact and scientific evidence, but I still think the belief that dinosaurs were put on Earth to test your faith in the bible stupid. I have a work colleague who believes that it his God-given right to convert others to Islam by fair means or foul. Its fine by me if he wants to believe that he is a host for some kind of memetic parasite that needs to be passed on to a fresh soul to survive, but I wouldn't let someone with such a dangerous belief structure into contact with people I care about.

As to Sikh history, you should do your own research into the veracity of stories and traditions, but at the end of the day you will sometimes have to rely on your faith in Sikhi when logic fails or when there is insufficient evidence to come to a clear conclusion. In religious and anthropological studies, oral history is of just as much importance as written history, and sometimes it can be used to "fill in the gaps" when written sources are not extant. In fact, some religions are still passed on orally.

4th Question, Is everything in Wahegurus hands and nothing in ours, or do we have some control can we make decisions at all, freewill vs destiny or fate.

Beats the hell out of me.

Regards,

K.

Fateh!

What is the problem with a Sikh considering Guru Arjan Dev Ji to be superior to the prophets of other religions? If you do not believe that the Gurus and their teachings were spiritually superior to the prophets and books of other religions, why be a Sikh at all? Why not follow these other prophets instead?

What the author of the article is saying is true: whereas Bhagat Prehlad had to be reassured before he accepted God's command, and where Abraham had to rely on a miracle to escape injury, Guru Arjan Dev accepted His bhana without hesitation and without exercising any spiritual power. In doing so, Guru Arjan Dev gave inspiration to regular Sikhs, who may not have had the bhagti and shakti to perform miracles, to accept martyrdom and to say, with Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Teraa keeyaa meethaa laagai.

Regards,

K.

OP:

What is this crap? Are you this guy's press officer?

If you want to post up the teachings of this "swami", do it so we can consider and discuss them, but this isn't a place to advertise the supposed greatness of some nutjob who refers to himself as "Me" with a capital M and who thinks he is God, the Kalika Avtar, and the best thing since sliced bread.

Regards,

K.

Thanks for sharing bro, that is a truely excellent find!

I'm reading Major J. Browne's History of the Origin and Progress of the Sicks [sic!] written in 1788. Quite interesting.

K.

Fateh!

See here:

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/main

It has the memoirs of Babur, Jahangir and the letters of Aurangzeb on the site, which any Sikh with an interest in history will find interesting, as well as the usual Persian literature such as Rumi's Mathnawi.

Enjoy,

K.

Randip Singh:

Singh, in this thread you were the one claiming that animal based products are superior, the others here were just saying that you can obtain similar results with veg products and then Matheen provided you with a study which found that whey protein was the ideal form of protein for building lean muscle.

I have no problem with meat, and I think it is quite clear from historical sources that Singhs have hunted and consumed flesh up until modern times. I have hunted animals, and I have eaten meat. These days however, I wouldn't eat meat unless I could raise the animals and chatka them myself so that I know for certain that they have had a good life before I bring it to an end, and that they are killed with as much compassion and respect as possible (I'm soft-hearted that way). On the other hand, I fully respect those Gursikhs who abide by the rules on eating meat given to them by their Panj Piaray, because they are following a lifestyle which is better suited to spiritual pursuits.

I've been training for the last several years, I squat almost 3 times as much as you, deadlift almost 3 times as much as you, and can still bench 1.5 times more than you on a good day despite having torn my shoulder about 18 months ago. Yet I don't really train purely for strength because the extras mass just slows me down, and I don't eat meat. That doesn't mean that a veg diet is superior, it's just that I have found what works for me within my self-imposed diet restrictions through a long process of trial and error.

Arachidonic acid is not necessary to have a balanced diet, it's just an interesting compound that can have an effect on lean muscle mass and strength. I use supps sometime to break through training plateaus or simply out of curiosity, but yes, supplements should be a supplement to a good diet and training routine, not the foundation.

Anyway, I hope you continue to share your research and training methods. I look forward to learning from your experience and from hearing from other Singhs who also train.

Regards,

K.

sorry but this idea of 'ideal sikhs' is complete nonesense. why should anyone imitate Gurdas or Mani Singh? and who called them ideal. people just keep filling others sikhs minds with increasing amoount of bullshit.

regarding Gurdas funny how some admin opend a thread asking people who dont 'follow' him to provide historical proof- funny how since you are the one supporting him we would think the onus is on you. and then Balbir Singh started giving good arguements oh look thread was closed. lets get this straight, is anyone seriously entertaining the notion that Gurdas Vaaran is Gurbani? I hope not. Or that he is indespensable? This is the invention of others.

It was Guru Arjan Dev who called Bhai Gurdas Ji's varan as the "key" to Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

The thread was closed because Balbir Singh was repeating arguments he had used in an earlier thread. Check the archives.

K.

Fateh!

What is the history of Sankat Mochan (or Sharda Pooran Granth, as it is sometimes known)?

The legend is that the shabads and associated siddhis were compiled by Bhai Mani Singh for sangat who complained that they had to go to Brahmins, Tantrics and Pirs to get the solution to problems in their lives, and that Sankat Mochan was written to break this reliance that some had on these religious charlatans.

If this is the case, why are there different versions of Sankat Mochan, and why was it created when the general concensus in Sikhi seems to be that doing jaap for rewards like the one's described in the book is not congruent with the teachings of the Gurus?

If you feel that the shabads do have the siddhis associated with them, and that one can recite the shabads for specific purposes as suggested in the book, why is there such a stigma attached to the use of this book? Why do more Sikhs not perform the sadhanas described to improve their lives and that of the Panth as a whole?

Regards,

K.

It's not fish oils per se that relieve the inflammation - it's EPA Omega 3 fatty acids, which you can get from quite a few nuts and seeds as well.

Traditional wrestling training is very hard on the knees and other jooints, which is why they eat so many almonds and use a lot of desi ghee in their cooking. Haldi is also used extensively - it's one of the greatest anti -inflammatories around and even protects against Alzheimer's disease.

Ref: (1)Davidson MH, Maki KC, Kalkowski J, Schaefer EJ, Torri SA, Drennan KB. Effects of docosahexeaenoic acid on serum lipoproteins in patients with combined hyperlipidemia. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. J Am Coll Nutr. 1997;16:3:236-243.

(2) BBC

(3) Desi Nihang veyd, lol.

True, you can get omega oils from veg sources as well.

My mum still sends me 5kg bags of almonds evey month. :-D

K.

To be honest, I tend to shy away from supplements. At most I may take vit c, iron etc.

I tend not to take supplements as few mates of mine have had problems. Just my view and my experience others may feel differently.

One thing I do know is that Cod Liver oil is probably the nasty most horrible thing ever to have been devised by man or beast.

I have a couple of friends who work in the supplement industry who throw a few treats my way from time to time, and I'm interested in anything that improves my performance in competition matches. But yeah, a lot of supps are either completely useless or they can have nasty effects if you don't know what you are doing. There was an idiot kid in my gym who wanted to look like the incredible hulk in time for his summer holiday. He progressed very quickly then came in one day with yellow eyes (a sign of jaundice). It turns out that he'd been taking an OTC designer steroid for a few months without having realised what he was ingesting. The only mass he kept from his short burst of training was probably from the extra weight of the tumours in his liver.

By the way, what the hell's wrong with plant ova?

K.

I have been told that oily fish is good for arthritis.

Yes, krill oil is also a great source of quality fish oils, if you don't like fish. Cissus is good for arthritis as well (I take it for the creaky old-man knees I have from squatting too much), as long as you get it from a good source.

Fish oils get in the way of arachidonic acid doing its job though, that's why they are avoided when using the supp.

K.