Kaljug

Fateh!

This topic would not cause so much confusion if people would actually read a little Indian history and Hindu mythology now and again. In the Durga Saptashati part of the Markandaya Puran, the Devi Chandi (who in her uncreated form represents the Ad Shakti of the universe) is created by the male Devas to destroy a terrible demon called Mahishasura. Thus she represents the divine power that preserves righteousness and the moral order, i.e. she is the protector of Dharma.

Devi is so great that even Brahma prays to her for help, and after she is sung into existence, she is empowered with all of the weapons of all the Devas. Thus she is more powerful than any individual Deva. In fact, she alone vanquishes the demon that the combined might of all of the Devas could not.

I'll bet you are all wondering where this is going, right? Perhaps some of you are shifting uncomfortably in your asana and thinking that I am trying to imply that this is why Guru Gobind Singh Ji worshipped Devi? It is clear from reading the bani of Dasmesh Pita in its entirety, and from the bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, that worship of anything but Akal Purakh is regarded as fruitless. For example, from the Shabad Hazare Pathshahi Dasmi:

ਇਕ ਬਿਨ ਦੂਸਰ ਸੋ ਨ ਚਿਨਾਰ ॥ ਭੰਜਨ ਗੜਨ ਸਮਰਥ ਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Do not accept anyone except God as God. God, the creator and destroyer of all, is capable of anything so only accept Him as God.

In Chandi di Var, Durga is stated to be a creation of Akal Purakh:

ਤੈਂ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

It's likewise clear from reading Chandi bani in Dasam Granth that the word Bhagauti is used to mean sword. For example, in Bhagauti Astotra:

ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਬਢੈਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ ॥ ਕਰੇ ਏਕ ਤੇ ਦਵੈ ਸੁਭਟ ਹਾਥ ਸੋਹੀ ॥

Hail to Siri Bhagauti that cuts sharp. That makes two of one and is beautiful in hand,

and in Chandi di Var:

ਲਈ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦੁਰਗਸਾਹ ਵਰ ਜਾਗਨ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਲਾਈ ਰਾਜੇ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਐ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥

Durga held out her sword, appearing like great lustrous fire; She struck it on the king Sumbh and this lovely weapon drinks blood.

Not only did Dasmesh Pita describe Durga as being a creation of Akal Purakh, but in his Chandi bani, after invocation of Akal Purakh through the traditional mangalcharan of ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥ , Dasmesh Pita reveals the true protector of the innocent and preserver of righteousness - the sword:

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥

May Sri Bhagauti Ji (The Sword) be helpful.

The verses describing Durga's exploits do not begin until first God is invoked, then the sword is rembered. In doing so, Dasmesh Pita reduces the Devi to a role inferior to that of the Creator and of the sword. In doing so, not only is the Hindu belief in a supernatural multi-limbed goddess of righteousness rejected, but the sword is declared to be the real Chandi of our times, the real defender of the weak and oppressed, and the real destroyer of evil.

Since the sword is greater than the power wielded by all of the Devas, it alone is worthy of veneration - veneration but not worship. When a Sikh recites the Ardas he meditates on the power of God which is represented on Earth by the sword. Indeed, one can say that Sri Bhagauthi Ji can be considered a descriptive name for Akal Purakh, much as Sarb Loh (the All-Iron One) and Sarb Kaal (the All-Destroying One) are used as epithets of Akal Purakh that describe the might and the power of God.

Regards,

Kaljug.

Let's hope they used a 15 inch pesh kabz.

K.

http://www.zeenews.com/news537655.html

Melbourne, June 08: A 23-year-old Indian student was beaten up for the second time in a fortnight by a group of youths here, the 11th person from the community to be assaulted within a space of a month in Australia.

Kamal Jit was found unconscious and bleeding by another Indian student in western suburb of the city on Sunday.

It was the second attack in two weeks on Jit, who was previously pelted with eggs by several masked men after getting off a late night train at St Albans station in western suburb.

"It is very bad because we pay a lot of money and we are living far away from our country and from our families and we are without protection," Jit was quoted as saying in 'The Age' newspaper Monday.

As he walked home at about 1:40 am yesterday, Jit said, he noticed three men acting suspiciously in a car and he tried to avoid them.

He then saw two men come out of it near a pizza shop, while another waited in a car.

"The two guys pushed me to the ground and I was hit on the head, I think with a steel rod," Jit said.

Jit, who required seven stitches after the blow to his head, said he did not want to live in the suburb any longer.

Jit's friends said the attack was the sixth or seventh over the past week on the Indian students, and called for extra police at the suburb of St Albans station at night.

A Victoria Police spokeswoman was quoted by the newspaper as saying that extra police, increased surveillance and mobile patrols had been deployed around train stations.

The Australian government had last week announced setting up of a Task Force headed by the National Security Adviser to deal with such violence.

Hundreds of Indian students yesterday rallied in Sydney to protest against the attacks.

Apart from Indians, there were students from other countries at the rally, who voiced their concerns about the racial violence and demanded police to be alert to prevent such incidents from happening again.

Just ahead of the rally, another youth from the community complained about his newly-bought car being torched outside his home here.

5 Singhs have agreed - Neo i think u should ban the Kala Afghanas.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Singh, but you'd better wait until another Singh agrees since I am a Satanist*, a Follower of Demons** and a Persecutor of Prophets***. Or you could count Valli Singh twice given the fact that he does as much seva as 2 Gursikhs.

Regards,

K.

*Allegedly, **apparently, ***so-called.

Fateh!

I'd like the opinion of the Gursikhs here regarding the temporary removal of kakaars for professional or other reasons.

I know that some Singhs who are travelling by air will remove their kirpans due to security concerns at airports (and not eat or drink until they have done put the kirpan back on and done an ardaas for forgiveness), but are there any other times when it is acceptable without going for pesh and retaking Amrit (the latter for example when one has to have hair removed from one's head for removal of a tumour)?

Would you consider it acceptable if it was for purely professional reasons, for example to fight in MMA events where one's opponent may not agree to fight someone wearing what looks to him like a very sharp and dangerous dagger? (At the amateur level, one's opponent may be fine with it, but at professional level there is no way that the organisations and referees involves will let anyone get into a ring wearing weapons - even if they are concealed in a dumalla.)

If you feel it is unforgivable, feel free to say so. If you think that it is acceptable, please share how you would go about it (hopefully not going for pesh after every match). Your guidance would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kaljug.

Yep.

It's rather difficult to actually learn things new about Sikhi when people here are constantly arguing with people who question every basic and fundamental thing about Sikhi, and use the same weak, rehashed arguments again and again and again and again.

Regards,

K.

Shutkara - to get them to leave you alone when you stop doing their puja - to break away from them can be difficult for some people.

This is true, the Devis and Devatas can become jealous, though many Sikhs may find that this belief smacks of superstition. In my family, there was a Singh who was previously from a part of the family that worshipped Maha Mai. When he decided to follow Sikhi completely, he experienced a great deal of turmoil initially after giving up Devi Puja until he'd settled into a rhythm of naam simran and bani. It wasn't pleasant, I'm told, but it did give him the impetus to do a great deal of bhagti and it made him an excellent example of a naam abhyasi Gursikh.

Mit ji:

In my opinion, until you decide that you want to follow one path and not the other (that's if you decide to follow one and not both - IMO, I don't think it's possible to serve more than one master), it would be best to do what you are normally expected to do to care for your shivaling and murti as well as doing your bani.

Some say that you also need strict rehat before you should recite Chandi bani as it can cause krodh instead of bir rass. I have also been told that one should always do sampooran Anand Sahib after reciting Chandi di Var (since Chandi bani is yudh bani and Anand Sahib gives shaanti), so you want to consider doing that if you wish.

On a final personal note, I think it's great that you are showing so much enthusiasm and interest in doing things in a correct and respectful manner.

Regards,

K.

Matheen

Udasis manage to do it, so I'm sure mit can as well. Its about recognising the real identity of shiva maharaj. There is not necessarily a conflict as long as you recognise that there are different levels of upasna and that murti puja is at the most elemental rather than the most advanced.

TSingh ji,

Could you explain how the Udasis reconcile the prohibition in Sikhi against idol worship and their murti puja? Perhaps we could have the discussion in a new thread?

Regards,

K.

Great news that they have their own Gurdwara. This is hopefully the future - Sikhi will flourish and spread if adopted amongst the low castes/oppressed. We should do all we can to support our new brothers.

Fateh.

Sorry, Veer ji, I didn't see that you had put up the article already.

Yep, hopefully their Sikh brothers will help them integrate into mainstream Sikhi so that they do not have to go to deras or caste-specific religious traditions like Ravidassias. Our Dalit brothers are the future of Sikhi. It's just a shame that organisations like the SGPC have done so little real parchaar among the so-called low caste communities.

Regards,

K.

Fateh.

Besharam! I feel sorry for his parents - I hope his dad beats some sense into this disgusting fool.

Thank God he was caught before he had a chance to do anything.

K.

Fateh.

Proud Sikhs who were previously of the Dalit caste. The Sikhs in the article talk about how they gained pride and respect after becoming Sikhs but how there is discrimination still from the Indian government bureaucracy.

K.

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http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncate..._100202609.html

By Imran Khan

Patna, June 9 (IANS) It is a centuries-old ignominy they wanted to escape by converting to Sikhism in Punjab and found new respect there. But back home in Bihar, the tag of Dalit refuses to leave them.

Many Dalit labourers who migrated to Punjab for work years ago and converted to Sikhism during their stay there are upset that they are still being categorised as Scheduled Caste in government records after they returned to their native villages in Bihar.

Sanjay Singh, who converted to Sikhism during his years-long stay in Punjab and sports a colourful turban and a long beard, says local and district administration officials in Bihar are not ready to accept him as a Sikh. Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism, preached against discrimination and prejudices on the basis of caste, class and status.

“The government officials are still treating us as Rishideo of the Musahar caste (the poorest Dalit community known as rat eaters), not as Sikhs, despite our efforts to convince them,” Singh told IANS, adding that he was yet to be termed a Sikh in the government records despite repeated requests.

Singh said that about two decades ago his close relative Naren Rishideo left for Punjab to earn a livelihood and converted to the Sikh religion, becoming Naren Singh. His example was followed by most of those of his caste men working there.

“We tasted dignity, respect and equality after we converted. Before that, we were treated as low caste, sometimes even inferior to animals, by the upper caste and backward caste people in the village,” Sanjay Singh said.

He said most of the women members of their families have now started using the Kaur surname.

Rup Singh and Manish Singh, who also converted to Sikhism, are no longer keen to be known as Rishideos and want that they should be treated as Sikhs in government records.

“We changed our religion to get rid of the stigma of untouchablity and to live a life with pride. We were happy to return to our village. Local people, barring a few, accepted us as Sikh, but in the government records and caste certificates we have the same old Dalit tag,” Rup Singh told IANS.

Soon after they returned to their village Halhalia in Araria district, nearly 400 km from Patna, they were shocked to learn that despite the change of religion they would have to fight another battle to upgrade their social status in official records.

“All the Dalits who converted to the Sikh religion are still Dalits in the caste certificate and we are being denied the status of the Sikhs,” Rup Singh said.

Manish Singh, another convert, says that they are no longer Dalits after embracing the Sikh religion and they should instead be treated as minorities as Sikhs are a minority community in the country.

A large number of migrant labourers from Bihar who converted to Sikhism in Punjab and stayed back there hardly face any identity problem, but the converts who returned to their native villages in Bihar are facing a different discrimination, Manish Singh said.

Araria district magistrate Anjani Kumar Verma, when asked about the problem, told IANS over telephone that he was not aware of the matter.

“So far no such complaint has come to my notice. If there is anything like it, the district administration will do justice with them,” Verma said.

Over 200 Dalit villagers of half a dozen villages including Kamta Balia, Gurumuhi, and Parmanpur under the Khwaspur panchayat (village council) have already converted to Sikhism. They have set up a gurdwara with support of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC), while some Sikhs from New Delhi are helping them to maintain it.

(Imran Khan can be contacted at imran.k@ians.in)

Sorrty, OT but, the injunction against all forms of tobacco applies to everyone - I don't remember the exact words but will try to find them.

Matheen ji,

I would be interested to see the exact words you are talking about. It doesn't make much sense to me for the rehat maryada to be enforced on everyone and not just Sikhs who had chak Amrit.

K.

Guru Nanak encouraged Muslims to stop cutting hair and stop doing halal as written in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

That's interesting.

Where are these shabads?

Regards,

K.

The Khalsa Fauj:

I understand what you are trying to get at but the quotes used are integral to the shabads. Central message of every shabad is basically singing the praises of one God. That doesn't give us an option to ignore the rest of the content in the shabad. We must understand the whole shabad and learn wisdom of Gurmat. I still wouldn't use kaali or mahakaal or Shiv to compare Sikh shaheeds.

Think of the compasrison this way: in the times of the Gurus, the greatest things that the common Indian man or woman could imagine were these very Devis and Devatas who were held in awe and sometimes fear. They were considered to be greater than the natural forces (fire, lighning, death, etc) that they represent. Some Hindus may not have seen death or a truly terrible lightning storm, but all of them would have heard of Mahakal and Indra. It is befitting of the greatness of the Sahibzadas and the Jungee Khalsa that their qualities were compared with the qualities of divine beings and not just of common natural creatures like crocodiles or tigers.

Also, paap is paap. Doesn't matter if someone has taken Amrit or not. If a person isn't Amritdhari, doesn't mean the person is free to do paap. Lekha of everything is taken into account by God. If we go by no such thing as paap until Amrit, do whatever and take Amrit when the person is like 55 or 60 which is what Punjabis tend to do. This is why Sikhi hasn't been able to spread because there aren't many that follow it enough to spread it.

My point was that kurehit has a different meaning to paap. Cutting hair or smoking tobacco is not paap unless you have partaken of Khande de Pahul. But adultery is a paap for anyone, Sikh or not.

Regards,

K.

Fateh, Mit ji!

I found it helpful to get to an early amrit vela by waking up an hour earlier every two weeks, e.g. if you are used to waking up at 7am, rise at 6am for two weeks, then 5 am, and so on until you get to your preferred time.

If you have a murti at home, and you do not intend to do puja of it again, it might be a good idea to hand it in at your local mandir to end your relationship with your Devi/Devata in a respectful manner.

I believe that what you are noticing about the change in atmosphere at your house is a purely psychological reaction, perhaps as a result of guilt feelings? Only you can answer that, though.

Also, It might be a good idea to come to a decision on whether you want to continue your puja alongside your recitation of bani (in which case, don't neglect your idol) or whether you want to stick to Sikhi.

Regards,

K.

The Khalsa Fauj writes:

So if someone hasn't taken Amrit, that person is allowed to freely commit bajjar kurehits? Bajjar kurehits are bajjar kurehits. Doesn't matter is the person is Amritdhari or not. Paap karam is paap karam. If a person isn't Amritdhari, it doesn't mean person is allowed to do bajjar kurehits.

This is a completely stupid thing to say. You cannot break rehat if you don't follow it in the first place. Kurehit != paap.

I gave you Gurbani quote which says Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh were without naam.

They are not worthy of worship, Gurbani tell us this, but the shabads you quote do not say any such thing. I actually agree with you on this issue, but I am pointing out that your quotes are completely irrelevant to this issue.

Shabad is clear about Shiv, Brahma and Vishnu and says they were diseased by ego. This is a core principle which Guru Nanak Ji is giving in that shabad.

No, it's not the central message. Read the whole shabad.

The second shabad by Bhagat Namdev Ji identifies an action of Mahadeo (Shiv). Shiv killed the son a merchant because food wasn't prepared on time. These points can never be ignored. This is great disrespect to Sahibzada Fateh Singh. If you agree that Baba Fateh Singh had characteristics of Shiv, you are saying that Sahibzada Fateh Singh had anger mangement problems and would kill someone' son if he wasn't given food on time.

However, since you aren't satisfied with the above quotes, let me give another one but I know you will not agree and will come up with more excuses to defend Shiv. These quotes are for those who are interested in understanding and learning Gurmat.

1. Was Baba Fateh Singh stuck in maaya and acted in ego like Shiv?

2. Was he stuck in duality like Shiv? Was he lost in three qualities of maaya?

3. Baba Fateh Singh had amplified ego like Shiv?

If the answer to above three questions is no, then Baba Fateh Singh Ji didn't have the characteristics of Shiv. It is utter disrespect of Baba Fateh Singh Ji to compare him to Shiv. This disrespect of shaheeds and pooran Gursikhs should never be acceptable.

Firstly, I didn't compare Sahibzada Fateh Singh to Shiva. Secondly, your reasoning is fatuous and your logic faulty. Let me give you a more homely example of how a simile works:

The opponent I fought in an NHB match this week was as strong as a bull. However, he did not chew crud and he did not have horns. He was as big as a house, but we was sorely lacking in windows and he did not buzz when I pressed his nose with my fist. He was as slippery as a snake, but when we all went out for a meal afterwards, he did not swallow his food whole.

Similarly, there is nothing offensive to say that, when Baba Fateh Singh fought, he was as destructive as Rudra, and like Mahakal, everything that he touched was engulfed in oblivion. Baba Fateh Singh was like Kali on the field, and he destroyed Mughals like Kali destroyed the demons spawned from Rakat Bij's blood. Baba Fateh Singh was so skilled in shastar vidya that it seemed that, like Durga, he had many arms each holding a death-dealing weapon. When Baba Fateh Singh struck a Mughal with his sword, it was as if a great tower had been felled by a bolt of Indra's lightning.

Yet, Baba Fateh Singh was greater than all of these Devis and Devatas.

Ya dig?

Kaljug.

Thats a pretty one sided, Islamaphobic and agenda driven article. I am all for challenging unfair laws, and I vehemently disagree with some aspects of Sharia, but if one is going to discuss intelligently, at least take into account both sides of the arguement (real arguement, not hand picked).

As an example:

"If the jizya had really been less than zakat, human nature being what it is, we would have seen large-scale conversions of Muslims to Christianity in the great Islamic empires -- but of course we don't, because who would want to exchange the position of the dominator for that of the dominated?"

On what basis has this assumption been made. Where is the evidence that a Muslim would change his faith due to a change in tax law? If a Muslims loyalty to Islam is so weak, why don't we see mass conversions in countries where Muslims are victims of hate and prejudice?

Fateh!

Firstly I suggest that you let go of the term Islamophobia which has been created by Muslims to prevent criticism of Islam and its discriminatory laws.

The above quote is merely the author's opinion based on his understanding of human nature, the rest of the article is not. But tell me: where in the world is this place you talk about where Muslims are subject to discriminatory laws based on religious persuasion that apply only to followers of Islam? Despite the fact that there may be discrimination against Muslims by a minority of individuals on certain occasions and at certain times, there is no country in the world in which the state conspires to provide actual incentives for a Muslim to change his faith.

Now compare the countries where Islam is the dominant force and see how the population of non-Muslims has decreased over time. Look at Bangladesh and Pakistan for example.

If you want to look at the primary sources (texts of Islamic jurisprudence), read the book by Andrew G Bostom that was mentioned earlier in this thread. All of the texts have been translated from the Arabic, so you can read it and make up your own mind.

Regards,

K.

As far as i know, the jiziya tax is much lower than the tax that muslims have to pay in the islamic state (Khums and zakat)

Amardeep: Nope.

Shaheediyan,

There is a discussion regarding jizya here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003260.php

The main use of jizya was to compel non-Muslims to accept Islam. I can look up the primary sources regarding jizya for you if you are interested, or you can consult Andrew G Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad.

K.

7000 Sikhs means 700,000 rupees.

Not bad for a day's work, eh?

K.

We must rely on Gurbani. Gurbani says the following about Shiv.

ਰੋਗੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਰੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਰੋਗੀ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨਿ ਭਏ ਸੇ ਮੁਕਤੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ॥ ੪॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ 1153}

Roagee Brahmaa Bissan Sarudraa Roagee Saggal Sunsaaraa || Har Pad Cheen Bhaye Say Muktay Gur Ka Shabad Veechaaraa || 4||

Brahmaa is diseased, Bissan and Rudar (Shiv) are diseased and the world is diseased. Those who keep in mind Lord’s feet (remain humble) and become a student of Guru’s word attain salvation. 4.

Here's the full shabad (in English translation for brevity):

BHAIRAO, ASHTAPADEES, FIRST MEHL, SECOND HOUSE:

ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

The Lord is in the soul, and the soul is in the Lord. This is realized through the Guru's Teachings. The Ambrosial Word of the Guru's Bani is realized through the Word of the Shabad. Sorrow is dispelled, and egotism is eliminated. || 1 || O Nanak, the disease of egotism is so very deadly. Wherever I look, I see the pain of the same disease. The Primal Lord Himself bestows the Shabad of His Word. || 1 || Pause || When the Appraiser Himself appraises the mortal, then he is not tested again. Those who are blessed with His Grace meet with the Guru. They alone are true, who are pleasing to God. || 2 || Air, water and fire are diseased; the world with its enjoyments is diseased. Mother, father, Maya and the body are diseased; those united with their relatives are diseased. || 3 || Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are diseased; the whole world is diseased. Those who remember the Lord's Feet and contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad are liberated. || 4 || The seven seas are diseased, along with the rivers; the continents and the nether regions of the underworlds are full of disease. The people of the Lord dwell in Truth and peace; He blesses them with His Grace everywhere. || 5 || The six Shaastras are diseased, as are the many who follow the different religious orders. What can the poor Vedas and Bibles do? People do not understand the One and Only Lord. || 6 || Eating sweet treats, the mortal is filled with disease; he finds no peace at all. Forgetting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, they walk on other paths, and at the very last moment, they regret and repent. || 7 || Wandering around at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, the mortal is not cured of his disease. Reading scripture, he gets involved in useless arguments. The disease of duality is so very deadly; it causes dependence on Maya. || 8 || One who becomes Gurmukh and praises the True Shabad with the True Lord in his mind is cured of his disease.

The shabad is about the supremacy of Naam and the pains of egotism, not about Shiva. If your inference is that this shabad tells us about Shiva's badness, what about the similar panktis about air, water, fire, mother, father? Do you think that all of these are inherently bad or is the shabad to be as a interpreted as a whole?

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ ਮੋਦੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਖਾਣਾ ਪਾਕਾ ਵਾ ਕਾ ਲੜਕਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ ੨॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ 874}

Paanday Tumraa Mahadeo Dhaoulay Dallad Charreaa Aavat Daykheaa Thaa || Moadee Kay Ghar Khaannaa Paakaa Vaa Kaa Larrkaa Maareaa Thaa || 2||

Oh pandit! I saw your Mahesh (Shiv) arrive on the white bull. He was invited to dinner by a merchant but he killed his son. 2.

Here's the whole shabad in English translation:

RAAG GOND, THE WORD OF NAAM DAYV JEE, SECOND HOUSE:

ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, all doubts are dispelled. Chanting the Name of the Lord is the highest religion. Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, erases social classes and ancestral pedigrees. The Lord is the walking stick of the blind. || 1 || I bow to the Lord, I humbly bow to the Lord. Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, you will not be tormented by the Messenger of Death. || 1 || Pause || The Lord took the life of Harnaakhash, and gave Ajaamal a place in heaven. Teaching a parrot to speak the Lord's Name, Ganika the prostitute was saved. That Lord is the light of my eyes. || 2 || Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Pootna was saved, even though she was a deceitful child-killer. Contemplating the Lord, Dropadi was saved. Gautam's wife, turned to stone, was saved. || 3 || The Lord, who killed Kaysee and Kans, gave the gift of life to Kali. Prays Naam Dayv, such is my Lord; meditating on Him, fear and suffering are dispelled. || 4 || 1 || 5 || GOND: One who chases after the god Bhairau, evil spirits and the goddess of smallpox, is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust. || 1 || I take only the Name of the One Lord. I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. || 1 || Pause || That man who chants "Shiva, Shiva", and meditates on him, is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine. || 2 || One who worships the Great Goddess Maya will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. || 3 || You are called the Primal Goddess. At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? || 4 || Follow the Guru's Teachings, and hold tight to the Lord's Name, O friend. Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. || 5 || 2 || 6 || BILAAVAL GOND: Today, Naam Dayv saw the Lord, and so I will instruct the ignorant. || Pause || O Pandit, O religious scholar, your Gayatri was grazing in the fields. Taking a stick, the farmer broke its leg, and now it walks with a limp. || 1 || O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull. In the merchant's house, a banquet was prepared for him - he killed the merchant's son. || 2 || O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. || 3 || The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them. The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque. Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. || 4 || 3 || 7 ||

The message of the shabad is again about the superiority of Naam and worship of Nirguna Brahman.

More quotes can be posted but two should be enough. It is paap to compare Sahibzada Fateh Singh Ji to Shiv. Shiv had anger management problems. Sahibzada Fateh Singh was way greater than Shiv. Shiv also indulged in bajjar kurehits such as weed and stuff like that.

There isn't much point in posting single panktis from a shabad to prove your point. Last time I checked, Shiva had not chak Amrit, so it's pretty stupid to accuse him of commiting a kurehit.

P.S. Since I have already been accused of being a Satanist for clarifying Aleister Crowley's writings, so let me take this opportunity to say that I am not a Shaivite, I do not smoke weed, and I do not ride to work on a white bull. However, I am almost certain this statement will not prevent some of the nutjobs here of accusing me of all these things and of being an agent for the RSS.

Regards,

K.

i do not think it has been translated.. there is a pdf with all of his works in english, excpet for the dastoor ul insha..

Fateh!

Do you have a link to this pdf?

Ta,

K.

Also, are you aware of the great respect that Sant Jarnail Singh ji Bhindranwale had for

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib?

He has said that anyone who does not accept Bachitar Natak is a nastik.

Fateh, veer ji!

Yes, but according to Kala-Afghanis, Sants do not exist so the greatest Sikh of the last century is actually a figment of the collective imagination of the Panth.

K.

Are you saying that we should give people like aleister crowley and anton de la vey the same respect as we do to Krishna Moses and Jesus? Crowley the man who supported Nazi ideology and admitted to sacrificing innocent children in satanic rituals to draw their life power.

Kalijug Singh is following demonic forces we should be wary of what he says

There are ways of absorbing the shadow and not become it, like crowley did.

Yes, I'm following demonic forces. OOGA OOGA BOOGA!!!

Crowley used the sacrifice of children as a metaphor for sex that does not result in procreation. Moses, on the other hand, witnessed the murder of every first born child in Egypt at the hands of the God he worshipped. Which act is more evil?

My point is, in case you seriously do not get it, is that they are not prophets to a Sikh, so why be prejudiced and forbid criticism of some prophets but not others.

Are you a Sikh, Mekhane'ch Jannat? If not, what religion do you follow? I am a Sikh not a Thelemite, so you can stop making assumptions now as to who I follow. If you do it again however, I am going to assume that you are purposely trying to mislead the sangat by making accusations about where my loyalties lie.

Regards,

K.

Every dharam has mystic tradition. This forum welcomes discussion of mystic traditions of other dharams along with good deeds/sakhi of saints/ passages towards nirgun god which are aligned within Gurmat Sikhi Sidhant.

The purpose of different dharam sections to see goodness in all religions, find common belief in all religions through discussing mystic traditions, passages of all the dharams scriptures and bring all the communities together agree on the common grounds despite of differences in sharia.

The sevadars of website are discussing to whether to lock all the dharams section until further notice since allowing post on other dharamas sections is back firing against the main aim of these sections, posts are turning out to be blunt attacks on dharams and their prophets, bringing more hatred than peace in hearts of members of this forum.

I know we should have been clearer on main aim of having all other dharam sections. We may also discuss the possibility of revamping all the other dharam sections titles change them to orders/spiritual of thought of each dharam which supports mysticism (tariqa, marfat, hakikat) and leave shariat aside to avoid clashes/conflicts within Gurmat Sikhi Sidhant.

Fateh!

Perhaps it would be better simply to have one forum where people can post inspirational teachings from other religions and highlight similarities between other religions and Sikhi (the thread on Orthodox Christians maintaining beards is an excellent example of this).

The thing is, even if you leave aside shariat, you will still have to answer the question of whether Sikhs believe that it was God who authored texts like the Torah, the Bible, the Quran, the Vedas, the Gitas and so on, and if so, why Sikhs do not follow the teachings contained within them.

I don't think that Sikhi teaches that it was Akal Purakh speaking when the books were penned, and I believe that there is historical and internal literary evidence to suggest that the deities of the Torah, the Bible and the Quran are separate and distinct tribal Gods, i.e. Yahweh != Christ != Allah. However, I also believe that Sikhi teaches one that the followers of these various religions can attain spiritual enlightenment (or whatever you want to call it) by treating the name of these deities as the name of Nirgun Brahman.

Regards,

K.

Fateh!

Perhaps you had better also clean up the Liber Astarte thread in the Spirit section of the forum, since Aleister Crowley was the prophet of a religion called Thelema. I hope you will also be similarly concerned about "insults" to people like L. Ron. Hubbard, Joseph Smith, Malaclypse the Younger, Anton La Vey, Master Yoda (Jedis are a religious denomination in the UK), and a whole slew of others. Or do these latter not count since you and the mods have decided that they are not prophets and that their followers are not deserving of the same respect you grant to Mohammedans?

If you will not allow the discussion of the failings of the above as well as Mohamed, Jesus, Moses, Krishna, then it would be better to say so in a sticky. However that would be a form of censorship, woukd it not? You would then also have to explain why Sikhs do not follow the teachings of these prophets if they are so well-respected.

Regards,

K.